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[inversevideo]

Sky Shadowing wrote...

There's one more thing everybody's missing- Shepard, in the first cut scenes, begins to wake up. If he was partially VI or anything like that, he would not have been able to do so (since they could have just flicked him back off), which indicates that his brain is active. They sedate him to keep him asleep- which indicates that his body is, in fact, alive and reactive to chemical agents.

IMO, Shepard NEVER died. The tubes referenced could have been things like artificial blood streams, IV drips, etc. You know? Artificial heart, things to keep the brain awake.
(SPOILER ALERT: REDEMPTION)
In Redemption, which I have not read but read a summary, Shepard's body is kept in a stasis pod and is referred to as being "neither dead or alive". If he were dead, a simple freezer would be more than enough to prevent decay.
(END SPOILER ALERT)

All this indicates to me that Shepard still is, at least, partially alive, or at least "recently dead" enough to resuciate him.

'Flicking him off' is not really possible. Not in the sense that you mean.

Miranda's recording, on her laptop, says that the team is looking to solve some of the degradation issues using 'synthetic analogues'.   And the Cerberus new story, said that President Huerta's memory and motor functions were being handled by synthetic analogues.  I take that to mean, that the area of Huerta's brain, used to store memories, was largely synthetic, as well as those areas responsible for handling consciously controlled movement. 

So if something similar were done to Shepard, the intergration would be 'tight'', otherwise it could not work. Shepard's ressurection relies on a seamless, symbiotic relationship between organic and inorganic.  Unlike a Reaper, which is a parasitc relationship between inorganic and organic, where the inorganic is in control.

Given some of the themes, being hit upon by the writers.. What is life? What is death? What is sentience? What are the results of a synthesis between organic and inorganic?  And given some of the elements that we see, in this story, 'Purgatory', 'Eternity', 'Afterlife', these all point to a transition of some kind, for Shepard and by extension the galaxy. 

There may be an interesting future in the makling, for the ME universe, a few hundred years after Shepard,  regarding  organic/inorganic synthesis.

REAPER_ a parasitic synthesis, between organic and inorganic, with the inorganic 'runtimes'  being dominant, and able to download into multiple organic platforms, 'assuming control', as needed. Individual organic and inorganic forms are  subservient to and serviice the needs of the Reaper and are brought into line via mathematical corruption of thier runtimes (for inorganics)  or domination of their mental processes (for organics), a process known as indoctrination.

Reapers belive they are the dominant form of life, in existence, and all other forms of life, in the galaxy exist as resources, for the maintenance of existing Reapers, and genesis of new Reapers. All lesser forms of life are treated as 'resources' (food/fuel) or used as domesticated labor, workers, soldiers, tenders.

SPECTRE/SPECTER _ (for lack of a better label at the moment - the 'ghost in the machine' ) a symbiotic relatioship between organics and inorganics, beneficial to both forms of life. Multiple 'runtimes' may exist in an organic/inorganic shell, along with the 'spectre/ghost' of an organic, working seamlessly as one entity.

Spectres believe in the right to self determination by all life forms, and strive to protect the galaxy, and ensure the safety of all life, by what ever means necessary.

[inversevideo]

As to the topic question:



I think Shepard has changed.



We have encountered subtle reminders of transformation, in ME2, 'purgatory', 'afterlife' , 'eternity'.

Subtle or perhaps 'blunt' reminders that Shepard has been to and returned from 'the final frontier'.



One does not return, from such a trip, without paying a price of some kind.

At least in every piece of literature I've read; there is always a price for returning from the dead.



On a 'pad' in the area where you first meet Jacob, a member of the Lazarus team, felt that they made medical history, bringing Shepard back. T.I.M tells Shepard 'what we did to you some would say is going too far'. And then there are these 'news stories', via the Cerberus network; which I assume is a way, for Bioware's writers, to add dimension to Shepard's story. It all seems to lead towards questioning whether ME1 Shepard is ME2 Shepard, or not?

[TrueHD]

He's the same Shepard, but with some erectile dysfunction.

[Alamar2078]

I like the questions coming up in the thread. I'm worried that Shepard [even if he is "the same"] may no longer be unique ... at least in ME3 I wouldn't be surprised to see flash grown Shepards either from TIM or from some other misc. source.

[inversevideo]

Okay so with the end of Ford v Heurta basically stating the need to redefine what constitutes death, as cellular death, as well as the introduction of the 'gray box' in the Kasumi DLC, does anyone else think that Bioware is making a statement on how Shepard was revived?



Liara is the one that retrieved your corpse, and she also mind melds with you, in ME1, whether you are her LI or not.



It is conceivable that since Asari 'meld' with you completely, they retrieved your memories, from Liara, and put them into a graybox for transfer back to you.



Miranda is initially concerned that all your memories are there.



Seems to me that Bioware is making some kind of statement concerning, life, death, and machine/organic synthesis. Bioware, seems to be posing the question, that if your memories can be stored and later retrieved and reintergrated with your body, or your rebuilt body, is that still you?



At least, that is how I interpret the whole 'Ford v Huerta' trial (as a backdrop for posing the question).



Thoughts?

[inversevideo]

double post - deleted one - sorry

Modifié par inversevideo, 16 avril 2010 - 11:02 .

[prizm123]

i have this far out wacky theory that the collector ship actually captured shepard before he was totally dead and that one of the missions miranda and jacob were on found shep and rescued him to begin the lazerus project

[Xaijin]

Devidose wrote...

Well, first off, it's the Systems Alliance President, not the North American one, SA was set up as the rest of the world was too busy squabbling over what to do at the relay 314 incident.
The CDN update was something I found interesting this time around. As mentioned, the Quarians had a similar tech before the Geth, turning imprints into something similar to the VIs ingame.

I think the Shepard we have is the original. The re-entry doesn't have to have been as bad as considered were it a planet like Earth.

http://masseffect.wi...om/wiki/Alchera

Providing that is the planet we see at the start, then the atmospheric pressure, gravity and average temp are all below that found on earth. This could have offset the severity of re-entry, coupled with the protective properties of the N7 armour, and kept key parts of Shepard, (Brain), intact enough for Cerberus to restore him.

mmm no. Shepard reentering at all is super beyond fairy sprinkles dead. Irretrievable.

[inversevideo]

Well, I had this epiphany that the reapers are really inconsequential to this story; at best they serve as the catalyst, for the true story,which is being overshadowed by their menance, and at that point I truly began to be afraid for Shepard.



What if the true story here is Shepard, and the implications/ramifications of her resurrection?.



Many of us chose to ****** off TIM, by not giving him the base.

I don't know how any of this plays out, if you gave the base to TIM.

He may chose to decide that you outlived your usefullness and repalce you anyway, forcing the same event, a showdown between you and you, or you and the Alliance and Council.



Given the turmoil, on Earth, over President Huerta, if TIM wants to 'teach you not to eff with him', or just keep you from interferring in his affairs, if you did give him the Collector base, and are now having second thoughts, he could simply reveal how you were brought back, causing everyone to denouce you, and leaving you no allies other than the ones you already have. Heck, if Huerta is being called a Zombie, for only being dead four hours, Shepard will be presumed to be a monster; an example of science gone bad.



Given that TIM probably has your memories backed up to a 'graybox' and your DNA, if he really wanted to be truly ruthless, he could make a genetic twin of you,without any cyborg hardware, download your memories into that 'shell', and send it after you, maybe even with Orianna, Kaidan/Ashley, and Liara, in tow. He could claim he made a cyborg to take on the Collectors, and he sent her because he did not wish to risk the 'real' Shepard, but now, 'it' (you) have gone rogue and must be stopped.



Now here is another thought, if TIM went the latter route, would there be any difference between you and the genetic twin who also shares Shepard's memory? Would not the two of you have equal claim to being Shepard?

[Cypher0020]

I came to terms that my Shepard is still the same one I played in ME1. I did acknowledge that she died when the Normandy went down and that Miri/Jake were sincere about when they said she was still her



My Shepard believed it was the real her, and I believed it too. Plus, with the Reapers/Collectors and a whole new set of mini galatic problems, she didn't really have time to get all introspective and stuff



The weird tech geek side of me loved the scarring, and wishes that a paragon still could have kept them... I also wished that more of the upgrades could have been made known...



For instance, Shep being able to hold someone by the throat Saren style.....maybe as a renegade choice... or self conciously... and then wonder wtf happened to me...

[Garuda One]

I think the main goal of the writers when doing this was to leave it up to the viewers, give hints and suggestions at him being himself from Mass Effect or being a totally different person. They should leave it like that.



If anything Probably some of his skull probably has metal or like metal platting and probably has partial robotic limbs. His brain is probably intact as well.



Also, btw guys, it's a Sci-Fi game.

[Garuda One]

Also I'd like to mention if Shepard really was entirely robotic/synthetic then the Collectors and or Reapers would have an easier job trying to turn Shepard. Hell EDI is made of Reaper technology and for a split second went offline/stopped the Reapers from hacking her. So I think he is who he was and what we saw in the opening of the game, thats basically how much robot is in Shepard. Eyes are probably fake and or synthetic and probably parts of his skull are synthetic as well.

[The Governator]

inversevideo wrote...

Okay, let me clarify, I am not trolling, I am just questioning what we know, so far, and wondering about an odd piece of news, posted to the Cerberus network.

I do look at the Cerberus news stories, and last night, there was some story about how the North American president, suffered a fatal stroke, and was dead, and as far as anyone knows this is the first time that a leader had their memories/data restored so that they could function in office. At least, that is the gist of the story, not quite verbatim.
The VP disputes the president's claim to office, stating he died. 

Now assuming that Bioware did not include that story by 'accident', but rather to showcase the technology available, which might account for how they reconstructed Shepard's mind, it begs the question, is the Shepard that Cerberus brought back the same Shepard that died?

How common is it to bring someone back from the dead? Shepard's case was extreme, but what about traffic accidents? i.e vehicle collisions, or simply being shot? Dying of heart attack? Do those folks get brought back to life? Are they the same folks that died? Or exact copies?

If Cerberus spent a fortune to bring you back, for a suicide mission, then T.I.M must either a) have the abilty to make more of you as needed, or  have the ability to recoup his losses by selling resurrection services to the hightest bidder. After all, if they can bring Shepard back, and s/he was mostly meat and tubes, someone who just took a bullet, should be a piece of cake, no?

Adn speaking of Shepard, being all meat and tubes, just how does a human body, how does your brain, survive atmospheric re-entry, lack of oxygen, and exposure to the planetary surface. 

I get that they rebuild the body, and that they somehow salvage enough of what was left of your brain, to collect all of your memories/data.  Or they think they did, hence the questioning by Miranda, on the shuttle ride to meet T.I.M.

But aside from being 'bait' for the T.I.M. to draw out the Reapers, are you really you?

The glowing frame beneath your flesh, the glowing eyes, the abnormal strength.
Are you still human? Or are you a mobile A.I. with all the memories/data, reactions, and drives, of someone who died 2 years ago?

T.I.M brought you back into this world, will he take you back out, and bring you back, only maybe this time, with a bit more loyalty to Cerberus?

Reminds me of the (Nerd alert!) time when Optimus Prime was 'resurrected' by the Quintessons...but it was not perfect and he ended up dying again.  It was not a true resurrection. 

[inversevideo]

Garuda One wrote...

Also I'd like to mention if Shepard really was entirely robotic/synthetic then the Collectors and or Reapers would have an easier job trying to turn Shepard. Hell EDI is made of Reaper technology and for a split second went offline/stopped the Reapers from hacking her. So I think he is who he was and what we saw in the opening of the game, thats basically how much robot is in Shepard. Eyes are probably fake and or synthetic and probably parts of his skull are synthetic as well.

Some of the issues, posed by Bioware via the 'Cerberus network, and in-game, with 'Kasumi's stolen memories' and Miranda's loyalty missiion, go beyond what synthetic parts Shepard may or may not have.

The state of technology, in the ME universe, is such that it would be possible for TIM to construct another Shepard, by growing her genetic twin, from her DNA (as was done with Orianna, from Miranda), but rather than let the twin grow up and have it's own experiences, force maturation of the body, and download Shepard's memories, from a graybox into the shell.  

It would seem to me that both Shepards would have a legitimate claim on being Shepardif who and what we are is defined by our memories, experiences and personalities. 

Thoughts?

[Dean_the_Young]

I believe there's something out there in the ME universe which does the whole 'quick clones are short-lived, rushed clones have problems' thing. But we do have an actual case study about memory implementation: Grunt. You can give memories, but you can't impart connection, which is just as important in terms of identity.

[Archereon]

tsd16 wrote...

This is more of a philosophical question than a scientific one, since we can't possibly draw a comparrison with our modern science. Since we cant revive someone that is dead dead. i.e. deep fried KFC style in the upper atmosphere of a planet and or killed by the vacuum of space. Regardless of how ****ed up Sheps body was or wasn't which is debatable, he was dead as dead gets.

I think it has more to do with the existence of a soul than anything else. I personally am an atheist, so by my logic if cerberus "restored" his brain. Shepard is still Shepard, no matter what they did to the rest of his body.

If you believe in a soul, by that logic reviving him at all should be impossible, no matter if they restored his body to perfect order or not, it just wouldnt work, he could not attain conciousness, because his soul ceases to exist on this plane, and I doubt his soul would just suck right back into his body from wherever the hell he is, if his body was restored. Dont bring up "near death experiences" as an example of this soul returning to the body crap. People that claim to have had near death experiences were not brain dead, you dont come back from brain dead, near death experiences are simply hallucinations caused by lack of oxygen to the brain. Once your brain is dead its friggin over because your brain is ****ed and can never function properly again.


SO in closing, it is my belief, if a god/soul does exist in the ME universe ME2 shepard IS NOT shepard, he is simply a blasphemous construct.

If a god/soul does not exist in the ME universe, in my opinion ME2 shep is just as much shepard as me1 shepard.

So if souls exist in real life, then heart attack victims who are revived from effective death are completely new people?

[Andrew_Waltfeld]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

I believe there's something out there in the ME universe which does the whole 'quick clones are short-lived, rushed clones have problems' thing. But we do have an actual case study about memory implementation: Grunt. You can give memories, but you can't impart connection, which is just as important in terms of identity.

To be honest, if TIM sets me up to face off against the alliance/council, I'll say bring it on. I am personally not afraid of the council, and mostly afraid of the alliance, the council are so rutted in their tactics and ways that they are easy to predict... the alliance not so much. You run around getting the races ready for the reapers, ready to defend the galaxy.

If they do come after you in ME3, I am gonna almost gauntee that it's the alliance that bags you, not the council. Probably with an human spectre *cough* Virmire surivivor *cough*, you end up in jail, and suddenly reapers attack, human spectre releases you and joins you and you off to fight.

Though I want an cutscene where the turian councilor is jaw is down in an "O god, he was right." when the reapers attack.

on topic -

I am guessing that sheppard is an genectic clone grown rapidly to maturity or age, that sheppard was when s/he died, and the implanted with the memories from an grey box as someone says. But unlike an krogan scientist, I am guessing that Cerbersus was able to over-come the connection issue which is not too surprisingly, considering "how often have you heard of an krogan scientist?"

[sumof all fear]

1) Adn speaking of Shepard, being all meat and tubes, just how does a human body, how does your brain, survive atmospheric re-entry, lack of oxygen, and exposure to the planetary surface. 

2) I get that they rebuild the body, and that they somehow salvage enough of what was left of your brain, to collect all of your memories/data.  Or they think they did, hence the questioning by Miranda, on the shuttle ride to meet T.I.M.

3) But aside from being 'bait' for the T.I.M. to draw out the Reapers, are you really you?

4) The glowing frame beneath your flesh, the glowing eyes, the abnormal strength.
Are you still human? Or are you a mobile A.I. with all the memories/data, reactions, and drives, of someone who died 2 years ago?

5) T.I.M brought you back into this world, will he take you back out, and bring you back, only maybe this time, with a bit more loyalty to Cerberus?

I have numbered some of your questions and will answer them as such.

1) The answer is chemistry.  as far as scientists know memories are stored as chemical balances and accessed by electrical impulses.  lacking the electrical impulses the chemical balances shoud still be in tact as long as the base tissue is still intact.  

2) Another intresting possibility was raised with the kasumi DLC, the idea of a Grey Box.  The idea has been around for years, basically an neural lace, this idea has been used in many notable titles such as Halo Combat Evolved.  The premiss is that a piece of circutry si placed in your body and connected to specific points on your brain, it then reads the electrical impulses that constitute thoughts and saves the information in a format that can be brought back up by a computer.  In a soldier as important as Shepard this would be a very likely piece of equipment for him to have and would very likely survive impact and re entry (more so than the body anyways). Then you can have a record of his condensed thoughts and memories that can be laced back on to the regenerated brain.  

3) Short answer, no.  Long answer: you are saren.  Complex answer: you are... A TRAP.  You are a person of intrest to the reapers, like a cop dressed as a hooker you draw in the badguys and nail em (not like that).

4) Think Master Chief.  Human to start, then replace delicate parts such as skull/faceial components, eye improvements for night vision, muscle implants for boosted strength, skelital improvements for improved shock absorbtion, bone marrow implants to boost regeneritave capeabilits (hay look regenerateing health in game).  that sort of thing.

5) I seriously doubt it.  you have too secure of a place in the world, and too many people ready to beat the ****** out of someone for you.  TIM would not likely be willing to risk losing an investment like you in ways beyond recovery, if he tried to make you more loyal to cerberus it would show in your actions, and people would notice, if they notice that you are significantly more loyal to a 'terrorist orginization' like cerberus people would lose faith in you, and you would ultimately lose all support and people would not regaurd you like they did, as an icon, and the point of bringing you back would have failed.

[abstractwhiz]

inversevideo wrote...

Given the turmoil, on Earth, over President Huerta, if TIM wants to 'teach you not to eff with him', or just keep you from interferring in his affairs, if you did give him the Collector base, and are now having second thoughts, he could simply reveal how you were brought back, causing everyone to denouce you, and leaving you no allies other than the ones you already have. Heck, if Huerta is being called a Zombie, for only being dead four hours, Shepard will be presumed to be a monster; an example of science gone bad.

I like this idea, but keep in mind that Cerberus News is not run by Bioware, just a bunch of highly imaginative fans. It might still have some impact on the story, but it's possible they've had the story for ME3 all figured out for months - maybe even before they released ME2.

Also, remember that this is Shepard we're talking about. After what he did in ME1, he's probably revered throughout the Alliance as one of their greatest heroes. It wouldn't surprise me if there were religions devoted to him.  That entire stunt might backfire and people will start viewing this kind of resurrection as acceptable, because they all like him, and see that he's still fighting the good fight. Huerta was a politician, and people will easily believe the worst about them (with good reason, usually).

Given that TIM probably has your memories backed up to a 'graybox' and your DNA, if he really wanted to be truly ruthless, he could make a genetic twin of you,without any cyborg hardware, download your memories into that 'shell', and send it after you, maybe even with Orianna, Kaidan/Ashley, and Liara, in tow. He could claim he made a cyborg to take on the Collectors, and he sent her because he did not wish to risk the 'real' Shepard, but now, 'it' (you) have gone rogue and must be stopped.

Now here is another thought, if TIM went the latter route, would there be any difference between you and the genetic twin who also shares Shepard's memory? Would not the two of you have equal claim to being Shepard?

This is true, but a heavy risk - if Shepard screwed him over once already, another Shepard will probably do the same thing. In fact, if he finds out the truth, TIM would be better off committing suicide before both Shepards find him. 

I think the genetic twin will be the same person - if you're using the same body with the same brain structure and the same memories, you'll get the same person again. If we dismiss supernatural claims (seems reasonable enough) a person is ultimately just information. If you duplicate the information (no one says this will be easy, of course), you'll get a copy. It's like copying a song - which song is the real one? It's a meaningless question.

Of course, once you split them apart, they will diverge and become different people, because they experience different things. The behavioral similarities will probably still be uncanny for a long time though.  

[Annihilator27]

Watch shepard has reaper tech in him or her.

[Andrew_Waltfeld]

annihilator27 wrote...

Watch shepard has reaper tech in him or her.

I would not be surprised at all if that is the case.

[inversevideo]

abstractwhiz wrote...

inversevideo wrote...

Given that TIM probably has your memories backed up to a 'graybox' and your DNA, if he really wanted to be truly ruthless, he could make a genetic twin of you,without any cyborg hardware, download your memories into that 'shell', and send it after you, maybe even with Orianna, Kaidan/Ashley, and Liara, in tow. He could claim he made a cyborg to take on the Collectors, and he sent her because he did not wish to risk the 'real' Shepard, but now, 'it' (you) have gone rogue and must be stopped.

Now here is another thought, if TIM went the latter route, would there be any difference between you and the genetic twin who also shares Shepard's memory? Would not the two of you have equal claim to being Shepard?

This is true, but a heavy risk - if Shepard screwed him over once already, another Shepard will probably do the same thing. In fact, if he finds out the truth, TIM would be better off committing suicide before both Shepards find him. 

I think the genetic twin will be the same person - if you're using the same body with the same brain structure and the same memories, you'll get the same person again. If we dismiss supernatural claims (seems reasonable enough) a person is ultimately just information. If you duplicate the information (no one says this will be easy, of course), you'll get a copy. It's like copying a song - which song is the real one? It's a meaningless question.

Of course, once you split them apart, they will diverge and become different people, because they experience different things. The behavioral similarities will probably still be uncanny for a long time though.  

The way I see it, TIM can create another Shepard, and he is ruthless enough to do so. the temptation, for such a personality as TIM, may be too great. 

If TIM is convinced that the Collectors are finished, he may decide that he wants 'a shepard' in the alliance and Council, who is loyal to Cerberus.  TIM needed Shepard, as she was to take on the Collectors, via attracting the Reapers, in this case Harbinger.  But now, TIM can shift tactics and plant a mole unlike any other; as Shepard has the 'hearts & minds' of much of the galaxy, controlling Shepard gives TIM a lot of political influence, as well as access to the Spectres, Alliance, and the Council.

Not saying BIOWARE will go that route, but the ability is there, for TIM to go down that path.

And if this thing comes full circle, as I think it may, with Shepard now looking, from the outside, like Saren.

Well, that is a topic for another post.

But just keep in mind TIM is BIOWARE's answer to  Lex Luthor.
TIM is totally amoral, and totally rutheless, and his response, to Shepard and Miranda going their own way, will be measure for measure as cruel and dirty as he can make it. You do not cross such a man without expecting a fight.

[Xaijin]

inversevideo wrote...

It looks to me like BioWare just confirmed my suspicions that Shepard is part VI.

I 'm in the Cerberus Base, where you first wake up.
I explored a bit and found a room, with a laptop, and a progress report, from Miranda  stating that exposure caused extreme degradation, but they are looking to 'synthetic analogues' to resolve the issue.

And when I logged into Cerberus Daily News, today,  I see a new article, about President Huerta, and it mentions synthentic analogues.

http://www.cerberusdailynews.com/

March 12th, 2010

Expert witness Dr. Lin Shiyin testified in the Systems Alliance trial of Ford v. Huerta today. He claimed that the former president made a full recovery from a temporarily brain-dead state. Stumbling a little when grilled on Huerta’s timeline of cognition, Lin nevertheless made the case for Huerta being in full control once his motor functions and memory were assigned synthetic analogues. “To believe that he is now a different person, a synthetic, is to draw a line where no line is needed,” he argued. “A new man did not appear on the table when the first open-heart surgery was performed. His life was merely extended beyond what was thought possible at the time.”

Coincidence? I think not.

I do believe BIoware is leaking it out, bit by bit, how Shepard was resurected.

So, I think it is a vaild question to ask, if Shepard is still Shepard?

It is starting to appear that Shepard is at least now a meld of organic and inorganic, like Saren, like the Reapers.

What does this bode for Shepard's fate, in ME3?

Or is it a change that matters?

The likely path is that Shepard's "qualities" outweigh the current framework, his inherent "Shepardness" will overcome any fixes Cerberus made or moral dilemmas.