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[WilliamShatner]

MarginalBeast wrote...

BioWare said that they were going to "go crazy with the writing" in ME3. They don't need to spend nearly as much time on the battle system and graphics for ME3 like they did for ME2. So they can spend a good amount of development time on writing, especially since they don't have to worry about continuing things into a fourth game.

Let's just say that our ME3 team will consist of Ashley/Kaiden+Liara+ME2 cast. BioWare would just have to write new romance dialogue for the ME1 and 2 love interests, and add in one confrontation scene if you "cheated". If you choose to continue your ME2 relationship, then you get the romance dialogue with your ME2 LI. If you choose to go back to your ME1 relationship, then you get the romance dialogue with your ME1 love interest. People who didn't cheat simply don't get a confrontation scene and everything continues as normal. Would this require a lot of work? Yes. Would this require too much work? Not at all. BioWare hopefully knows how much this means to their fans. They can't afford to get lazy now.

I don't think BioWare will shun any of the romances. And if they do, I hope they are all shunned equally. I would rather have us all suffer than for them to play favorites.

If they put the ME2 squad in ME3 they are indeed playing favourites, because the reason they gave us for our LIs not being in ME2 was so that they would survive into ME3.

To turn around and now put the ME2 squad into large roles would be hypocritical pandering.

[jlb524]

kraidy1117 wrote...


Jack is dieng, same as Thane tho there could be a cure but Jack is dieing.

I don't think she's dying, but even if she is, her romance deserves the same attention as the Miranda/Tali ones.

[MarginalBeast]

WilliamShatner wrote...

MarginalBeast wrote...

BioWare said that they were going to "go crazy with the writing" in ME3. They don't need to spend nearly as much time on the battle system and graphics for ME3 like they did for ME2. So they can spend a good amount of development time on writing, especially since they don't have to worry about continuing things into a fourth game.

Let's just say that our ME3 team will consist of Ashley/Kaiden+Liara+ME2 cast. BioWare would just have to write new romance dialogue for the ME1 and 2 love interests, and add in one confrontation scene if you "cheated". If you choose to continue your ME2 relationship, then you get the romance dialogue with your ME2 LI. If you choose to go back to your ME1 relationship, then you get the romance dialogue with your ME1 love interest. People who didn't cheat simply don't get a confrontation scene and everything continues as normal. Would this require a lot of work? Yes. Would this require too much work? Not at all. BioWare hopefully knows how much this means to their fans. They can't afford to get lazy now.

I don't think BioWare will shun any of the romances. And if they do, I hope they are all shunned equally. I would rather have us all suffer than for them to play favorites.

If they put the ME2 squad in ME3 they are indeed playing favourites, because the reason they gave us for our LIs not being in ME2 was so that they would survive into ME3.

To turn around and now put the ME2 squad into large roles would be hypocritical pandering.

Not really. Just because a character is recruitable doesn't mean he/she has a large role. You can recruit Grunt in ME2. Does he have any story significance whatsoever? Not particularly. Hell, Thane is on the front cover of the game and you don't even need to recruit him at all. The story does not require these two characters to move forward in any way, and yet they are still possible team members with their own fully fleshed-out conversations and loyalty missions. I imagine that if the ME2 cast is recruitable in ME3, they will get similar treatment--and for most fans that would be completely satisfactory.

Whereas BioWare can actually make Ashley/Kaiden and Liara mandatory squadmates that each serve an important role in the story.

[kraidy1117]

jlb524 wrote...

kraidy1117 wrote...


Jack is dieng, same as Thane tho there could be a cure but Jack is dieing.

I don't think she's dying, but even if she is, her romance deserves the same attention as the Miranda/Tali ones.

She is, read her implant info, also thats the point I am getting at. While Miri and Tali are give ins, people like Jack need some closure, just because they have a small fanbase, even Jacob

[jtav]

WilliamShatner wrote...

MarginalBeast wrote...

BioWare said that they were going to "go crazy with the writing" in ME3. They don't need to spend nearly as much time on the battle system and graphics for ME3 like they did for ME2. So they can spend a good amount of development time on writing, especially since they don't have to worry about continuing things into a fourth game.

Let's just say that our ME3 team will consist of Ashley/Kaiden+Liara+ME2 cast. BioWare would just have to write new romance dialogue for the ME1 and 2 love interests, and add in one confrontation scene if you "cheated". If you choose to continue your ME2 relationship, then you get the romance dialogue with your ME2 LI. If you choose to go back to your ME1 relationship, then you get the romance dialogue with your ME1 love interest. People who didn't cheat simply don't get a confrontation scene and everything continues as normal. Would this require a lot of work? Yes. Would this require too much work? Not at all. BioWare hopefully knows how much this means to their fans. They can't afford to get lazy now.

I don't think BioWare will shun any of the romances. And if they do, I hope they are all shunned equally. I would rather have us all suffer than for them to play favorites.

If they put the ME2 squad in ME3 they are indeed playing favourites, because the reason they gave us for our LIs not being in ME2 was so that they would survive into ME3.

To turn around and now put the ME2 squad into large roles would be hypocritical pandering.

I don't follow your logic There's a difference between romancable and plot critical. If ME characters were kept from ME2 for the sake of ME3, that implies the story cannot work without them. This has nothing to do with their status as a love interest. Ashley/Kaidan/Liara's actual plot function will be unrelated to their romance, just like the first game. Coversely, characters that are optional can have very good character development and romance.

[iNixiRir]

WilliamShatner wrote...
If they put the ME2 squad in ME3 they are indeed playing favourites, because the reason they gave us for our LIs not being in ME2 was so that they would survive into ME3.

To turn around and now put the ME2 squad into large roles would be hypocritical pandering.

No, the reason the LIs from ME1 weren't in ME2 was because it would be to difficult to do this with all the other LIs. You know, if they were a squadmember in the second game, the romance would already need to get deeper than the new LIs. Thus making it harder to implement all the LIs in the third game. It's easier to just take all the LIs and put them in the same boat in ME3(Seeing as all the LIs are basically at the same level of progress).
Also, your point doesn't make any sence seeing as Ashley and Kaiden could still die and not being in ME3.
It would actually be unfair if the LIs from the first game would have a bigger role than those of the second. And besides, every LI gets 2 games this way(ME1-ME3 and ME2-ME3).

[WilliamShatner]

MarginalBeast wrote...

WilliamShatner wrote...

MarginalBeast wrote...

BioWare said that they were going to "go crazy with the writing" in ME3. They don't need to spend nearly as much time on the battle system and graphics for ME3 like they did for ME2. So they can spend a good amount of development time on writing, especially since they don't have to worry about continuing things into a fourth game.

Let's just say that our ME3 team will consist of Ashley/Kaiden+Liara+ME2 cast. BioWare would just have to write new romance dialogue for the ME1 and 2 love interests, and add in one confrontation scene if you "cheated". If you choose to continue your ME2 relationship, then you get the romance dialogue with your ME2 LI. If you choose to go back to your ME1 relationship, then you get the romance dialogue with your ME1 love interest. People who didn't cheat simply don't get a confrontation scene and everything continues as normal. Would this require a lot of work? Yes. Would this require too much work? Not at all. BioWare hopefully knows how much this means to their fans. They can't afford to get lazy now.

I don't think BioWare will shun any of the romances. And if they do, I hope they are all shunned equally. I would rather have us all suffer than for them to play favorites.

If they put the ME2 squad in ME3 they are indeed playing favourites, because the reason they gave us for our LIs not being in ME2 was so that they would survive into ME3.

To turn around and now put the ME2 squad into large roles would be hypocritical pandering.

Not really. Just because a character is recruitable doesn't mean he/she has a large role. You can recruit Grunt in ME2. Does he have any story significance whatsoever? Not particularly. Hell, Thane is on the front cover of the game and you don't even need to recruit him at all. The story does not require these two characters to move forward in any way, and yet they are still possible team members with their own fully fleshed-out conversations and loyalty missions. I imagine that if the ME2 cast is recruitable in ME3, they will get similar treatment--and for most fans that would be completely satisfactory.

Whereas BioWare can actually make Ashley/Kaiden and Liara mandatory squadmates that each serve an important role in the story.

Grunt and Thane certainly have larger roles than Ash/Kaidan and Liara in ME2.

Recruitable characters will always have bigger roles in the game than normal NPCs.  Their importance to the main story is irrelevant as to how "large" their role is.  They have far more dialog and more interaction. 

They will also require the most work.  Grunt may not be as important as Anderson is to the overall story, but creating the character requires a lot more resources. This is the big point that leads to the hyprocrisy of ME2.  Why would you save the ME1 LI for ME3 if not to prevent having to but large amount of work into a character than can potentially die? 

Hence if the ME2 characters are recruitable then a) it was a lie and BioWare just screwed fans of those characters in ME2 because it didn't really matter whether a character could die or not as to whether they would appear in ME3 in a large role.

[Flamewielder]

MarginalBeast wrote...

BioWare said that they were going to "go crazy with the writing" in ME3. They don't need to spend nearly as much time on the battle system and graphics for ME3 like they did for ME2. So they can spend a good amount of development time on writing, especially since they don't have to worry about continuing things into a fourth game.

Let's just say that our ME3 team will consist of Ashley/Kaiden+Liara+ME2 cast. BioWare would just have to write new romance dialogue for the ME1 and 2 love interests, and add in one confrontation scene if you "cheated". If you choose to continue your ME2 relationship, then you get the romance dialogue with your ME2 LI. If you choose to go back to your ME1 relationship, then you get the romance dialogue with your ME1 love interest. People who didn't cheat simply don't get a confrontation scene and everything continues as normal. Would this require a lot of work? Yes. Would this require too much work? Not at all. BioWare hopefully knows how much this means to their fans. They can't afford to get lazy now.

I don't think BioWare will shun any of the romances. And if they do, I hope they are all shunned equally. I would rather have us all suffer than for them to play favorites.

That's assuming all LI's will come back as squadmates, which is not guaranteed. You could still have LI conversations with a non-playable crewmate which would make the amount of dialogue more manageable. Most characters have skills that would make them realistic contacts/agents/fixers (i.e. mission providers) or crewmembers (similar to Kelly, for instance).

C. Hudson has already stated the reason the ME1 LI's were unavailable in ME2 was because they had plans for them in the ME3 concluding arc. Nothing was said about them being necessarily squadmates, however.

[WilliamShatner]

iNixiRir wrote...

WilliamShatner wrote...
If they put the ME2 squad in ME3 they are indeed playing favourites, because the reason they gave us for our LIs not being in ME2 was so that they would survive into ME3.

To turn around and now put the ME2 squad into large roles would be hypocritical pandering.

No, the reason the LIs from ME1 weren't in ME2 was because it would be to difficult to do this with all the other LIs. You know, if they were a squadmember in the second game, the romance would already need to get deeper than the new LIs. Thus making it harder to implement all the LIs in the third game. It's easier to just take all the LIs and put them in the same boat in ME3(Seeing as all the LIs are basically at the same level of progress).
Also, your point doesn't make any sence seeing as Ashley and Kaiden could still die and not being in ME3.
It would actually be unfair if the LIs from the first game would have a bigger role than those of the second. And besides, every LI gets 2 games this way(ME1-ME3 and ME2-ME3).

You do know that BioWare didn't have to put so many LIs in ME2?  If that was the problem it was they who chose to go down the route they did and deserve to be called on it.  Introduction of new LIs should in no way impact people who want to continue theirs from the previous game. 

Only one of Ash/Kaidan will be dead in ME3.  There will always be a Virmire survivor. Unfortunately I feel this will be a hindrance to both characters.  Both will have to fill the same role.  It remains to be seen how BioWare will pull that off and still have them be other own distinct character.

[MarginalBeast]

WilliamShatner wrote...
Grunt and Thane certainly have larger roles than Ash/Kaidan and Liara in ME2.

Recruitable characters will always have bigger roles in the game than normal NPCs.  Their importance to the main story is irrelevant as to how "large" their role is.  They have far more dialog and more interaction. 

They will also require the most work.  Grunt may not be as important as Anderson is to the overall story, but creating the character requires a lot more resources. This is the big point that leads to the hyprocrisy of ME2.  Why would you save the ME1 LI for ME3 if not to prevent having to but large amount of work into a character than can potentially die? 

Hence if the ME2 characters are recruitable then a) it was a lie and BioWare just screwed fans of those characters in ME2 because it didn't really matter whether a character could die or not as to whether they would appear in ME3 in a large role.

Wow, you really just don't get it.

[WilliamShatner]

Flamewielder wrote...

MarginalBeast wrote...

BioWare said that they were going to "go crazy with the writing" in ME3. They don't need to spend nearly as much time on the battle system and graphics for ME3 like they did for ME2. So they can spend a good amount of development time on writing, especially since they don't have to worry about continuing things into a fourth game.

Let's just say that our ME3 team will consist of Ashley/Kaiden+Liara+ME2 cast. BioWare would just have to write new romance dialogue for the ME1 and 2 love interests, and add in one confrontation scene if you "cheated". If you choose to continue your ME2 relationship, then you get the romance dialogue with your ME2 LI. If you choose to go back to your ME1 relationship, then you get the romance dialogue with your ME1 love interest. People who didn't cheat simply don't get a confrontation scene and everything continues as normal. Would this require a lot of work? Yes. Would this require too much work? Not at all. BioWare hopefully knows how much this means to their fans. They can't afford to get lazy now.

I don't think BioWare will shun any of the romances. And if they do, I hope they are all shunned equally. I would rather have us all suffer than for them to play favorites.

That's assuming all LI's will come back as squadmates, which is not guaranteed. You could still have LI conversations with a non-playable crewmate which would make the amount of dialogue more manageable. Most characters have skills that would make them realistic contacts/agents/fixers (i.e. mission providers) or crewmembers (similar to Kelly, for instance).

C. Hudson has already stated the reason the ME1 LI's were unavailable in ME2 was because they had plans for them in the ME3 concluding arc. Nothing was said about them being necessarily squadmates, however.

I know, but all we can do at the moment is speculate and make assumptions based on what has been said and what has been done so far.  They may not be sqaudmates, but for me that scenario will be the only scenarion that will come close to justifying the kick in the nuts we got with ME2.  I don't want another game of running Liara's errands while she sits behind a desk.

[jtav]

@WilliamShatner: What most people who want the ME2 love interests to return in ME3 want is for them to have a role similar to Leliana or Zevran: entirely optional to the main story but well-developed nonetheless. What Ash/Kaidan/Liara are probably going to get are roles similar to Alistair and Morrigan: essential to the main story and well-developed LIs. I don't see what the six of anyone's part in 2 has to do with their role in 3. The two are unrelated, exceot that ME2 squad members are unlikely to be mandatory.

[redguppie]

MarginalBeast wrote...

WilliamShatner wrote...
Grunt and Thane certainly have larger roles than Ash/Kaidan and Liara in ME2.

Recruitable characters will always have bigger roles in the game than normal NPCs.  Their importance to the main story is irrelevant as to how "large" their role is.  They have far more dialog and more interaction. 

They will also require the most work.  Grunt may not be as important as Anderson is to the overall story, but creating the character requires a lot more resources. This is the big point that leads to the hyprocrisy of ME2.  Why would you save the ME1 LI for ME3 if not to prevent having to but large amount of work into a character than can potentially die? 

Hence if the ME2 characters are recruitable then a) it was a lie and BioWare just screwed fans of those characters in ME2 because it didn't really matter whether a character could die or not as to whether they would appear in ME3 in a large role.

Wow, you really just don't get it.

The fact that he can't realize that they were left out for MAIN story related reasons should tell you how any discussion with him will go, nowhere.  For people like him the romance IS the main plot.

[iNixiRir]

WilliamShatner wrote...
You do know that BioWare didn't have to put so many LIs in ME2?  If that was the problem it was they who chose to go down the route they did and deserve to be called on it.  Introduction of new LIs should in no way impact people who want to continue theirs from the previous game. 

Only one of Ash/Kaidan will be dead in ME3.  There will always be a Virmire survivor. Unfortunately I feel this will be a hindrance to both characters.  Both will have to fill the same role.  It remains to be seen how BioWare will pull that off and still have them be other own distinct character.

Ofcourse they didn't have to. But they did, because they obviously wanted it. They wanted to have more choices and characters for people(and seeing how many people at least went for one of them in a playthrough, they did a good job at that). And I'm not saying that the new LIs should impact the people with continued romance. But those old LIs shouldn't impact the new ones either.

Should the ME2 LI get a crappy role in ME3(like the old ones in ME2) because I waited for the right person(I didn't really have Tali/Thane/Miranda/Garrus/Jack/Jacob in ME1, so I couldn't pick them)? There was a reason the old romance didn't grew in ME2 - so they can in ME3, just like the new ones.
If they put all the LIs in the same spot in ME3(you know, be at your side - maybe sacrificing him/herself at the end w/e), it's fair for everyone. The people who romanced someone from the first game get it, and the ones that romanced someone from the second get it too.

Modifié par iNixiRir, 05 mars 2010 - 01:15 .

[Nozybidaj]

WilliamShatner wrote...


If they put the ME2 squad in ME3 they are indeed playing favourites, because the reason they gave us for our LIs not being in ME2 was so that they would survive into ME3.

To turn around and now put the ME2 squad into large roles would be hypocritical pandering.

This, not to mention the fact that now all the ME1 LI's are basically starting over at square 1 again.  Not only do we have to retread everything we did in ME1 just to get back to the same point the ME2 LI's would already be at they also need all the content that is going to be available to the ME2 LI's in ME3.  Either way you look at it, even if you think both sets of LI's should be included and have equal endings it still means the ME1 LI's need twice the amount of content.

[Sharn01]

He get's it, he is just really upset, and to some extent it is justifiable, look how upset people get with the very notion that the ME2 squadmates may not have signifigant roles in ME3, it has not even happened and they get screaming mad on the forum's at the very possibility, while for the ME1 squadmate fan's, its not speculation, but has already happened.



All this hate could have been avoided, or greatly reduced, if Bioware had just written some dialog with the ME1 character's that actually followed the most basic thought processes of even the least intelligent people.

[Iokastos]

Tali, Miranda, Garrus have insane fan support, if they don't implement these romances they risk apocalypse 

Liara has some haters but she also has large fan base, any good reason to not bring her romance back? No

Thane/Jack awesome characters but apparently they are dying, maybe they won't, who knows

Jacob most hated romance and character, no idea why he should be back

Samara/Morinth Samara is not going to break her code, Morinth will kill you so NO

Ashley/Kaidan average support (check polls, thread spamming doesn't really show how much a character is liked)      I'll be quite upset if the awesome romances in ME2 get minimezed by these two rather flat characters.                          *hides from rabid fan girls/boys*

Kelly imo ass shaking doesn't qualify as romance

[Nozybidaj]

iNixiRir wrote...

No, the reason the LIs from ME1 weren't in ME2 was because it would be to difficult to do this with all the other LIs. You know, if they were a squadmember in the second game, the romance would already need to get deeper than the new LIs. Thus making it harder to implement all the LIs in the third game. It's easier to just take all the LIs and put them in the same boat in ME3(Seeing as all the LIs are basically at the same level of progress).

Except they aren't now.  There is no longer a relationship with the ME1 LI's.  They hit the big ole reset button, washed them away, all so they could implement these suicide mission characters as LI's.  If you want to say that taking a relationship story line past the initial "boy meets girl boy gets girl" stage is too difficult for BW to implement, you may or may not be right.  I've never seen them try to know either way.

That said, the ME2 LI's if they are going to be included in ME3 would not only defeat the entire purpose of taking the ME1 LI's out of ME2 but would also leave them way ahead in terms of development since the ME1 LI's now have to go through the whole "boy gets girl" part of the romance again.

[Nozybidaj]

Sharn01 wrote...

He get's it, he is just really upset, and to some extent it is justifiable, look how upset people get with the very notion that the ME2 squadmates may not have signifigant roles in ME3, it has not even happened and they get screaming mad on the forum's at the very possibility, while for the ME1 squadmate fan's, its not speculation, but has already happened.

All this hate could have been avoided, or greatly reduced, if Bioware had just written some dialog with the ME1 character's that actually followed the most basic thought processes of even the least intelligent people.

This!!!  If everyone here thinks it was "such a great role" for the ME1 LI's to have in ME2 why not support it for the ME2 LI's in ME3?  I would be more than happy to join your cause of ME2 LI's receiving the same follow up treatment the ME1 LI's got.

Modifié par Nozybidaj, 05 mars 2010 - 01:31 .

[Mondo47]

kraidy1117 wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

kraidy1117 wrote...


Jack is dieng, same as Thane tho there could be a cure but Jack is dieing.

I don't think she's dying, but even if she is, her romance deserves the same attention as the Miranda/Tali ones.

She is, read her implant info, also thats the point I am getting at. While Miri and Tali are give ins, people like Jack need some closure, just because they have a small fanbase, even Jacob

While I concur that 'neural degeneration' sounds pretty nasty (I can only imagine it being somewhere between Alzheimers and Parkinsons from that description and neither is a pleasant prospect), there's no timeline on it. Might take a couple of decades, might take less, might take more - it's all heresay, and it might not even be fatal, only resulting in profound disability, or since it seems to make Jack more powerful instead of weaker, she might just be the lucky 2% (there's one for all you Transmetropolitan fans  ). We've not got enough info to go on.

Thane at least seems pretty positive he has about a year left tops. Unless something comes up to refute it (a cure or whatever) we can't really take it that anyone is 100% certain to just curl up their toes on us except Thane. And even then, as comicbooks regularly prove (and Shep for that matter), you can get better from apparently-certain death. We'll just have to wait and see.

You're bang on though about closure - all the relationships will require something to either close them or keep them open. Leaving the audience in limbo would just be sloppy beyond words.

[Sharn01]

@Santira_azz



Love the sig

[Yeled]

Nozybidaj wrote...

Sharn01 wrote...

He get's it, he is just really upset, and to some extent it is justifiable, look how upset people get with the very notion that the ME2 squadmates may not have signifigant roles in ME3, it has not even happened and they get screaming mad on the forum's at the very possibility, while for the ME1 squadmate fan's, its not speculation, but has already happened.

All this hate could have been avoided, or greatly reduced, if Bioware had just written some dialog with the ME1 character's that actually followed the most basic thought processes of even the least intelligent people.

This!!!  If everyone here thinks it was "such a great role" for the ME1 LI's to have in ME2 why not support it for the ME2 LI's in ME3?  I would be more than happy to join your cause of ME2 LI's receiving the same follow up treatment the ME1 LI's got.

Yep.  It pretty much sucks.  There's a part of me that doesn't even want to bother with ME3, because I didn't feel a connection to ME2.  I realize it was a good game, but it felt like a hiccup without any purpose.  I had no emotional attachment to it whatsoever.  I didn't get immersed.  Its the first game Bioware's made that really disappointed me.

I'm much more interested in Dragon Age II than I am ME3 right now.

[Yeled]

Mondo47 wrote...

You're bang on though about closure - all the relationships will require something to either close them or keep them open. Leaving the audience in limbo would just be sloppy beyond words.

Sloppy beyond words.  Yeah, that's about how I feel about ME2.

[CmdrFenix83]

This puts far too much emphasis on the romances. I will almost guarantee that they will all boil down to a handful of lines between Shepard and whatever LI, a tiny confrontation between the one from ME! and ME2 if necessary, where you'll have to choose one, and then the single, easily interchangeable 'romance' scene right before the final boss.



I'm not saying that you're wrong, Nozy, I'm just saying what I think BioWare's going to do. I'm always a fan of the romance subplots, but I think you're overestimating their importance in the trilogy.