214 réponses à ce sujet

[MassAffected]

Agreed SurfaceBeneath. Also we still have a lot of time to fill before ME3 comes out and that includes both comics and DLC packs. Who knows, maybe the ME1 crew will get some lovin in those. Liara already got a nice chunk of back story in the comic books. The world is not as bleak as it might seem at first, lets encourage progress instead of this constant bickering.

[Sharn01]

A lot of people wanted to see bioware do a romance beyong boy meets girl or girl meets girl, instead any chance of that was removed in ME2 with several new relationship's moved in to take their place.



A lot of people feel that the separation is going to cause the ME3 romance for the ME1 character's to be all about fixing the relationship and ending it in the same spot it was at the end of ME1, while the ME2 character flow into ME3 without a hitch, and bioware will finally do the continuation we all thought was coming in ME2.



It really is a touchy conversation for a lot of people, even when thread's are being responded to with all like minded individual's it can get bitter and depressing. Being a pessimist, I am not happy myself, but I try to stay more nuetral, I an not always successful, but at least it make the attempt.

[Deztyn]

Nozybidaj, Most fans of the ME2 characters don't expect they'll have much of anything to do with the story, the best we're hoping for is they'll be squadmates with the option of continuing the romance.

Modifié par Deztyn, 05 mars 2010 - 06:28 .

[MassAffected]

Sharn01 wrote...

A lot of people wanted to see bioware do a romance beyong boy meets girl or girl meets girl, instead any chance of that was removed in ME2 with several new relationship's moved in to take their place.

A lot of people feel that the separation is going to cause the ME3 romance for the ME1 character's to be all about fixing the relationship and ending it in the same spot it was at the end of ME1, while the ME2 character flow into ME3 without a hitch, and bioware will finally do the continuation we all thought was coming in ME2.

It really is a touchy conversation for a lot of people, even when thread's are being responded to with all like minded individual's it can get bitter and depressing. Being a pessimist, I am not happy myself, but I try to stay more nuetral, I an not always successful, but at least it make the attempt.

Well, I think that you're handling this in the correct manner. At least you're not campaigning for the ME2 characters to burn at the cross. (Haven't seen you do that anyway).

[SurfaceBeneath]

Nozybidaj wrote...

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

Nozybidaj wrote...

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

there might have been a very good reason for why certain characters were handled in a specific way that will lead to the overall enrichment of the plot as a whole by the third game"

So back to the "oh sorry, just wait two more years again and it'll all be good lolz" excuse again?

Who's sorry? I certainly would not be sorry as an author if I decided that keeping a character in a minimal role for 1/3 of a story resulted in the enrichment of my story.

Same way they shouldn't be sorry shelving the ME2 crew in ME3 if it "enriches the story"?

No, the same way they simply weren't introduced in the first one. If we assume that the first two acts of a story are supposed to build up to a third, than it is pretty easy to draw the line that all such characters built up in those acts will play a defining role in how the third ends.

Anyways, I'm sure others have said the same things I would say as eloquently or more so in the past. Regardless, I'm definitely not taking this conversation further since it always descends into SRS BSNS arguing without any respect for the perspective of the other side and besides the story for the third game was probably already done before the first game even came out so our little bickering means nothing in the overall scope of anything.

[MassAffected]

Deztyn wrote...

Nozybidaj, Most fans of the ME2 characters don't expect they'll have much of anything to do with the story, the best we're hoping for is they'll be squadmates with the option of continuing the romance.

This.

[Nozybidaj]

Deztyn wrote...

Nozybidaj, Most fans of the ME2 characters don't expect they'll have much of anything to do with the story, the best we're hoping for is they'll be squadmates with the option of continuing the romance.

Well, if that is what you get then you should be absolutely thrilled.  It would be a hell of a lot more than the ME1 LI's got.

[Nozybidaj]

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

our little bickering means nothing in the overall scope of anything.

That I absolutely agree with.

[Sharn01]

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

Nozybidaj wrote...

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

there might have been a very good reason for why certain characters were handled in a specific way that will lead to the overall enrichment of the plot as a whole by the third game"

So back to the "oh sorry, just wait two more years again and it'll all be good lolz" excuse again?

Who's sorry? I certainly would not be sorry as an author if I decided that keeping a character in a minimal role for 1/3 of a story resulted in the enrichment of my story.

You are kind of displaying my point, but in responce to you, character's do need growth in a story, while you may argue that Liara and Kaiden/Ashley are getting that growth in ME2, we as player's do not see it, and Shepard, with both but moreso with Liara, is not given appropriate dialog with them.  There was no reason that the romance could not be a part of the dialog chain initiated by Shepard, it would not have changed anything in ME2 other then make those that wanted to stay loyal feel a little less burned.

The argument's of wait until ME3 are going to get people angry in and of themselves, and when ME3 rolls around, should they do a poor job on the character's, it may end up being a breaking point for some people.

Some have pointed out Star War's for instance, it would have been an upsetting story if Han was frozen in carbonite between the two movies and sold to Jaba, and Luke runs in to Leia who gets a 3 minute cameo as she explain's how she is going to take down Jaba, and then kick's Luke out of her office. 

Could it all have been explained in RotJ, maybe, but it makes the writer have to do a lot more work to get everything back on track if he still want's those character's to be important, not to mention he has not explained how they got in to the roles in the first place, and it will require flashback's to make sense.

Maybe I would have approved of this if it meant they completely cut the Ewok's out of RotJ, but still, cutting out the Ewok's could have been used for more plot and developement instead of rehashing a bunch of stories that should have been explained in the last movie.

[Deztyn]

Nozybidaj, I'm a big fan of Kaidan, I was a bit disappointed by the way he was handled in ME2, so I do understand your feelings. But if his being mostly absent means he'll have a more important role in ME3 in addition to being a squad romance, then I'm good with it. And I certainly don't want fans of other characters to suffer just because I didn't get to continue my romance in one game.

I'm sorry having your LI sidelined kills your enjoyment of the game so much, I mean that sincerely.

Me, I hope they'll be room for Kaidan, Garrus and Thane in ME3, and maybe even a new love interest. I have multiple Shepards to keep happy, after all. <3

[SurfaceBeneath]

Sharn01 wrote...

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

Nozybidaj wrote...

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

there might have been a very good reason for why certain characters were handled in a specific way that will lead to the overall enrichment of the plot as a whole by the third game"

So back to the "oh sorry, just wait two more years again and it'll all be good lolz" excuse again?

Who's sorry? I certainly would not be sorry as an author if I decided that keeping a character in a minimal role for 1/3 of a story resulted in the enrichment of my story.

You are kind of displaying my point, but in responce to you, character's do need growth in a story, while you may argue that Liara and Kaiden/Ashley are getting that growth in ME2, we as player's do not see it, and Shepard, with both but moreso with Liara, is not given appropriate dialog with them.  There was no reason that the romance could not be a part of the dialog chain initiated by Shepard, it would not have changed anything in ME2 other then make those that wanted to stay loyal feel a little less burned.

The argument's of wait until ME3 are going to get people angry in and of themselves, and when ME3 rolls around, should they do a poor job on the character's, it may end up being a breaking point for some people.

Some have pointed out Star War's for instance, it would have been an upsetting story if Han was frozen in carbonite between the two movies and sold to Jaba, and Luke runs in to Leia who gets a 3 minute cameo as she explain's how she is going to take down Jaba, and then kick's Luke out of her office. 

Could it all have been explained in RotJ, maybe, but it makes the writer have to do a lot more work to get everything back on track if he still want's those character's to be important, not to mention he has not explained how they got in to the roles in the first place, and it will require flashback's to make sense.

Maybe I would have approved of this if it meant they completely cut the Ewok's out of RotJ, but still, cutting out the Ewok's could have been used for more plot and developement instead of rehashing a bunch of stories that should have been explained in the last movie.

First of all, I don't think the Star Wars movies are a terribly good analogy to use in this situation since the Star Wars trilogy was only 6 hours long and was not exclusively focused around one character. If Star Wars was viewed exclusively through Luke's view, than the situation that you described would have very much happened in Empire Strikes Back since Luke spends the vast majority of this film not with the rest of the cast. Regardless they are different kinds of media and different kinds of stories told in very different ways, so any analogies you would draw would be completely superficial (and frankly insulting given the simplicity of what Star Wars did compared with the complexities of what Mass Effect is trying to do).

It has been argued back and forth over these forums for months now, but in the end, there is no rational way to look at a story 2/3 of the way in progress and judge the pieces as if they had all fallen. All we're seeing is the preparation for how the pieces will be laid out, and while we can conjecture that certain peices are not being set up adequately, at least from our limited perspective as an audience viewing this story from a first person perspective, we still don't have the complete view necessary to judge that objectively (even taking into account that people's attitudes towards certain characters can be labeled anything but objective).

[Sharn01]

Do you feel all of Shepard's dialog choices where appropriate with them?



I do not, I felt the option's where very lacking, the fact that early on I could not call out TIM, or any member of Cerberus on the organization's activities kind of started the ball rolling, getting to Liara did feel like a punch in the face to me. I was sitting in my chair thinking, is this the same Shepard I played through ME1 with, because her behavior is completley different.

[SurfaceBeneath]

Sharn01 wrote...

Do you feel all of Shepard's dialog choices where appropriate with them?

I do not, I felt the option's where very lacking, the fact that early on I could not call out TIM, or any member of Cerberus on the organization's activities kind of started the ball rolling, getting to Liara did feel like a punch in the face to me. I was sitting in my chair thinking, is this the same Shepard I played through ME1 with, because her behavior is completley different.

I feel that within the limits of the very medium itself, that yes, it was appropriate. You could be extremely hostile towards TIM and Cerberus and there wasn't a single dialogue choice where you were forced to agree with the organization on any level. Hell, at the end you give the Illusive Man the middle finger and screw his plans altogether. So yes, I feel that even as an ultra paragon Cerberus-hating Shepard, enough leeway was given in the dialogue choices presented to roleplay that adequately. Don't mistake the limitations of the medium itself with any fault on Bioware's part... you can only account so much for the human imagination, which is why proper roleplaying experiences have only ever and will only ever be at the table with a group of friends, some paper and pencil, and maybe a few dice.

The story still requires that you work with them though.

[Tootles FTW]

Garrus is a love interest because he has a large fanbase.  You really think Bioware would give themselves the headache of figuring out the logistics of a human/turian coupling for the fun of it?

I think in ME3 you will get the option of either:
1) Continuing with your ME2 love interest
2) Returning to your ME1 love interest (if you had one to begin with/cheated on them in ME2)
3) Remaining single/breaking up with current love interest

They shouldn't give you the option of, say, hooking up with Garrus in ME2 and then leaving him for Thane in ME3.  While the option is always nice, sure, it's unnecessary and would clear up a lot of these cluster-f*ck romance issues going into ME3.

[Xandurpein]

To the OP. I think that as others have described, it wouldn't actually need to take that much work to set up a scene where your ME1 LI forces the issue, as long as you make it generic and either keep the ME2 LI name only hinted or used only once in the conversations. It's doable.

You can see some conversations in ME2 set up that way. For example in the Samara recruitment quest there is a joke where your two squad mates makes sarcastic remarks about not needing to follow orders that can lead to certain death. They will bounce more or less the same lines regardless of who they are so they only need one line per companion.



As for the ME1 vs ME2 LI debate. I sincerely hope everyone gets a shot at happy-ever-aftering regardless of their chosen LI. If the game lets me I certainly want to finish ME3 at least twice, once to explore a happy end Tali and once to see a happy end with Ashley.



Personally I think that there are two different issues involved that has lead to complaints from those who are fans of the ME2 LI. The fact that the ME1 LI where removed from the game is not really the big issue, it's the implied changes in their character.



I can understand if people felt a bit railroaded in the conversations with Ashley/Kaidan in ME2, even if I think maybe people may have started reading a bit too much into what actually happened yet in the romance. AShley/Kaidan are military after all, and can't just write to Alliance command and say they'll be AWOL to go off with Shepard. To me it doesn't seem like that big a deal though. As long as get closure in ME3, and BW has pretty much said so, I can even understand the reason to keep some tension into the romance to make the ultimate closure more satisfying in the end. Reaching the "happy-ever-aftering" stage in ME2 would have left to little interesting in ME3.



The big issue, and I can understand if it has upset some people, would be the personality change in Liara. Liara was a naive near childlike girl in ME1, but is someone a lot darker in ME2. It's obvious that BW has thought a lot about her character and how she would affect the plot, and it's also obvious that they managed to leave the fans behind. Now Bioware writes the story and they have no obligation to write happy stories. But I think that they owe it to the fans that IF they change the story of a person like Liara, they do it in a way that the players can understand, even if they don't always agree. Many fans got upset when Morrigan left them in DA, but it's explained why. Hopefully ME3 will not only bring closure to the romance with Liara, but also give players satisfactory answers to why Liara has changed so dramatically to you. And you really shouldn't be forced to buy a magazine to understand it either.