329 réponses à ce sujet

[Cuddlezarro]

Helios969 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Truthfully, it gets BORING playing the same game more than a few times. Doing the darker things in the game is a lot of fun. There's as much detail put into the uglier choices, in some cases, even more detail. You miss a lot of the game if you always do the same things. Fortunately, I can get my evil on in a video game and remain a sane, someone nice person in the real world.

Oh, I try.  I really do.  But the image of Brother Genetivi's face and the dagger sticking in the back of his head gives me nightmares.  Nightmares! I say!

as evil as it sounds that murder knife scene just made me laugh considering how comicaly you kill him

its like itchy and scratchy without the gore :E

[Ahisgewaya]

Sabriana wrote...

@ Drasanil
Lawful stupid? I don't think I ever heard that phrase. Good one. Morrigan does seem to grow over the course of the game. Her disapproving of good deeds has merit, although people have to look deeper. She despises sugar-coating, that's why she dislikes the dalish hunter being lied to. To Morrigan, reality is what it is and should be faced squared on. Her line "The truth doesn't simply go away" points to that.

A true good character will help those who see things with a skewed eye. She will support the growth in characters. She will also see to it that bad advice is never heeded, and she should see lethal advice and nip it right in the bud, no matter where it comes from.

Lawful Stupid is by far my favorite phrase to come out of Dungeons and Dragons.

About Morrigan -
Another reason she doesn't like lying to the Dalish is that the Dalish themselves are a hard people, and the elf in question wouldn't want things to be sugar coated (at least Morrigan assumes this). Another thing that people complain about is her freaking out at the mage tower, but this to me makes perfect sense. The templars have been hunting her throughout her entire life, and you've just brought her to their den for some reason. She is literally on pins and needles and thinks everyone in that tower is one hare's breath away from trying to burn her.
Given this I find little surprise that her solution is "kill everyone and get out of here as quickly as possible".

[Herr Uhl]

Cuddlezarro wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

So, why defile them in the first place? You got a hunch that these highly dependable people have something better to offer than the artifact that they have guarded for centuries?

they turn you into a reaver thats why

So, turning 4 people into reavers is worth sacrificing an artifact that actually works, be it religious vodoo or lyrium? That there is a whole village that was founded to protect them proves that it's not just a dustbin, it's a fancy dustbin.

And this is if you metagame, I expected then to try to kill me after I defiled the ashes, they seemed so friendly up until then.

[Helios969]

[quote]Ahisgewaya wrote...

Lawful Stupid is by far my favorite phrase to come out of Dungeons and Dragons.

[quote]

Are you saying all those thousands of player Paladins were stupid?

[Helios969]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Cuddlezarro wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

So, why defile them in the first place? You got a hunch that these highly dependable people have something better to offer than the artifact that they have guarded for centuries?

they turn you into a reaver thats why

So, turning 4 people into reavers is worth sacrificing an artifact that actually works, be it religious vodoo or lyrium? That there is a whole village that was founded to protect them proves that it's not just a dustbin, it's a fancy dustbin.

And this is if you metagame, I expected then to try to kill me after I defiled the ashes, they seemed so friendly up until then.

Dumb question I'm sure, but  I see the term metagaming thrown around all the time.  I have no idea what that means.

[e-ver]

Another reason to defile the ashes is, that your PC can't know what will happen if he leaves the Gauntlet with the ashes intact - you have to asume that Kolgrim might call his Andraste to swallow you. Defying cultists, who have a High Dragon as their backup is a very risky thing to do in a world without quicksaves.

[ejoslin]

Helios969 wrote...

Dumb question I'm sure, but  I see the term metagaming thrown around all the time.  I have no idea what that means.

Not a dumb question at all. It just means you as a player have more information than your PC would and your decisions are based on information YOU have, not your character.

Edit: I r ninja (and a REALLY fast typist) 

Modifié par ejoslin, 06 mars 2010 - 12:42 .

[Herr Uhl]

Helios969 wrote...

Dumb question I'm sure, but  I see the term metagaming thrown around all the time.  I have no idea what that means.

You base your decisions on knowing the outcome before doing it, not what knowledge the character has at the time.

Edit: friggin ninjas.

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 06 mars 2010 - 12:40 .

[mousestalker]

Metagaming is using knowledge you have as a player to influence the way your character behaves when the character has no way of knowing what you know. I metagame when I kill Vaughan every time my character sees him, even if the character is a dwarf noble male.

Curse you speed typing ninjas!  

Modifié par mousestalker, 06 mars 2010 - 12:45 .

[Cuddlezarro]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Cuddlezarro wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

So, why defile them in the first place? You got a hunch that these highly dependable people have something better to offer than the artifact that they have guarded for centuries?

they turn you into a reaver thats why

So, turning 4 people into reavers is worth sacrificing an artifact that actually works, be it religious vodoo or lyrium? That there is a whole village that was founded to protect them proves that it's not just a dustbin, it's a fancy dustbin.

And this is if you metagame, I expected then to try to kill me after I defiled the ashes, they seemed so friendly up until then.

there is a codex entry you can find in genitivis house that talks about Reavers and how freaking strong they are so no its not exactly metagaming

if I wanted to talk about metagaming I would have brought up the the entire Defile ashes+betray the cult+kill the dragon ending is exactly the same if you dont defile them as a reason why defiling them as a good thing

also you dont need to metagame to find out that the ashes might not
be magical because of divine power either

edit: also the ashes ARE NOT proven to actually work until you get back to redcliff

Modifié par Cuddlezarro, 06 mars 2010 - 12:44 .

[Helios969]

Awesome! I struggle to get one response, let alone three.

[MorningBird]

I find myself approving of the fancy dustbin comment.

[RPGmom28]

I take Wynne wherever I go. I actually find her presence comforting. Her voice and speech patterns make me want to go make some hot tea and curl up with an afghan. And Morrigan hates everything I do, anyway. I've got to have a healer in there somewhere.

[EccentricSage]

I'm going OT for a moment here... Apparently I missed something... the cult uses human sacrifices? I know they killed the knights, but they may have felt that they were doing so in self defense. And I know Zevran mentions blood sacrifices, but sacrificing blood doesn't always mean human sacrifice, or even killing. Throughout history IRL, there have been practices where animal slaughter is ritualized to use the blood energy, but the animal was still killed for food... and also one can sacrifice one's own blood in rituals. Was there some literal reference to killing people in sacrificial rituals that I missed?





As for the difference between desecrating a relic IRL just to be a jerk, and doing so in DA:O, the question is 'what do I get out of this?' If I'm a pissed off blood mage or some warrior that the Chantry has wronged, defiling the ashes might not seem like a bad idea. (my Dalish did not do it, out of respect for ancestors who fought for his people's freedom, though he dislikes the chantry)



So, IRL, if I'm some pissed off pagan who will be granted some reward or power for desecrating a christian artifact, it becomes a question of practicality rather than morality.



As for the Wynn debate... some good points have been made in defence of certain things she does, but it will still depend upon my character, how her actions and words are taken. My Dalish is very disillusioned at this point, and very grateful to have Zevran supporting him. I'm begining to think Dristen might fall apart emotionally and contemplate the US if not for Zev. He's having his heart ripped out and stomped on by the big bad world he's been made to wander, never knowing if he'll ever see his clan again. And for him, Wynn has been less than understanding. He's starting to feel a bit like Aneirin in reguards to Wynn. I don't know if she'll show enough of a good side again for him to warm back up to her, or if he's going to really have a wedge driven permanently between him and this mage he at first felt so warmly for. The whole Aneirin issue really put him off. When he sees her racism towards Ohgren, if it comes up in this play through, I think it will be a last straw. Dristen has gone out of his way to try to ignore prejudice and respect different races. For someone who sees herself as such a wise old crone to act that way is not going to sit well at all.

[Reaverwind]

EccentricSage wrote...

I'm going OT for a moment here... Apparently I missed something... the cult uses human sacrifices? I know they killed the knights, but they may have felt that they were doing so in self defense. And I know Zevran mentions blood sacrifices, but sacrificing blood doesn't always mean human sacrifice, or even killing. Throughout history IRL, there have been practices where animal slaughter is ritualized to use the blood energy, but the animal was still killed for food... and also one can sacrifice one's own blood in rituals. Was there some literal reference to killing people in sacrificial rituals that I missed?

Bring Morrigan with you when you approach the altar in one of the Haven homes. She'll remove all doubt.

Modifié par Reaverwind, 06 mars 2010 - 02:35 .

[DianeLyn56]

My first game I killed Kolgrim and got the ashes. I walked out the door and stopped and looked at my inventory and said "Oh, I wonder what this horn does."


It's a good thing I save a lot! 


I've gotten used to Wynne and I use her in my party. Not because I like her but because at the end she is great in battle. I had a feeling my first game when she was standing with her arms crossed at Ostagar that she would rub me the wrong way.  I was right, especially her speeches about my relationships which were none of her business. However, I let her talk and then did what I wanted anyways and she came around.

One playthrough I was messing around with both Alistair and Zevran and when she questioned me it came up with both of their names as a choice for my pc to pick, that was pretty funny. So many things in this game make me laugh, my first game I was flirting with Alistair then I met Zevran and started flirting with him. So I figured okay nobody is saying anything so I can get away with this.

Boy was I wrong the next thing I know Alistair is telling me to make a choice and Zevran ends up dropping 20 points. So much for thinking I was getting away with something.

[Sarah1281]

Boy was I wrong the next thing I know Alistair is telling me to make a choice and Zevran ends up dropping 20 points.

Lying works for awhile but I think eventually one of them realizes that you are, without a doubt, two-timing them. At least they don't both dump you on the spot, like they should probably do, but let you choose.



And what does the horn do?

[Wicked 702]

Brings the pain.....

(Summons the high dragon to fight. Ring the gong if you're on a console.)

Edit: I also type quickly.

Modifié par Wicked 702, 06 mars 2010 - 02:57 .

[DianeLyn56]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Boy was I wrong the next thing I know Alistair is telling me to make a choice and Zevran ends up dropping 20 points.

Lying works for awhile but I think eventually one of them realizes that you are, without a doubt, two-timing them. At least they don't both dump you on the spot, like they should probably do, but let you choose.

And what does the horn do?

It made the dragon attack us. No one made it out alive. 

[EccentricSage]

Ahisgewaya wrote...

Sabriana wrote...

@ Drasanil
Lawful stupid? I don't think I ever heard that phrase. Good one. Morrigan does seem to grow over the course of the game. Her disapproving of good deeds has merit, although people have to look deeper. She despises sugar-coating, that's why she dislikes the dalish hunter being lied to. To Morrigan, reality is what it is and should be faced squared on. Her line "The truth doesn't simply go away" points to that.

A true good character will help those who see things with a skewed eye. She will support the growth in characters. She will also see to it that bad advice is never heeded, and she should see lethal advice and nip it right in the bud, no matter where it comes from.

Lawful Stupid is by far my favorite phrase to come out of Dungeons and Dragons.

About Morrigan -
Another reason she doesn't like lying to the Dalish is that the Dalish themselves are a hard people, and the elf in question wouldn't want things to be sugar coated (at least Morrigan assumes this). Another thing that people complain about is her freaking out at the mage tower, but this to me makes perfect sense. The templars have been hunting her throughout her entire life, and you've just brought her to their den for some reason. She is literally on pins and needles and thinks everyone in that tower is one hare's breath away from trying to burn her.
Given this I find little surprise that her solution is "kill everyone and get out of here as quickly as possible".

Yeah, I was struck by that, too.  Not only did I bring her to a place that is the apitomy of everything evil from her POV, but I'm asking her to save it.  I argued with her about it, and she only hit me with a -3.  That's nothing, considering what I was asking her to do.

[Addai]

Helios969 wrote...

I can't help but wonder if some of the disdain and arguments against Wynne as a companion has something to do with the "problems" she has with Zevran.  Not naming anyone specifically.

Since some of us have actually said as much in this very thread...  You're a bright one.    It doesn't make any of the points about the negative aspects of her any less valid.  The fact that she is insufferable to and about Zevran simply highlights them.

[EccentricSage]

Addai67 wrote...

Helios969 wrote...

I can't help but wonder if some of the disdain and arguments against Wynne as a companion has something to do with the "problems" she has with Zevran.  Not naming anyone specifically.

Since some of us have actually said as much in this very thread...  You're a bright one.    It doesn't make any of the points about the negative aspects of her any less valid.  The fact that she is insufferable to and about Zevran simply highlights them.

Yeah.  There are plenty of other moments besides her aditude towards Zev.  But for my first playthrough, her aditude towards him were kind of a big deal for my character, Dristen, who just doesn't want to deal with all this BS anymore, and Zev is the character who actually helps lift some of the weight of Ferelden from his shoulders, so Wynn needs to f*** off.  Truly, how one plays their character, and the emotional state of the character, has a lot to do with the level of animosity.  My Dalish is simply stressed out and sick of bickering and backbiting amongst the party... and he'd expected the 'wise old mage' to be the least likely to cause him drama.  Not good times for Dristen at Camp Killadarkspawn.  He feels more like camp counselor than head of the Wardens.

[MorningBird]

EccentricSage wrote...
As for the difference between desecrating a relic IRL just to be a jerk, and doing so in DA:O, the question is 'what do I get out of this?' If I'm a pissed off blood mage or some warrior that the Chantry has wronged, defiling the ashes might not seem like a bad idea. (my Dalish did not do it, out of respect for ancestors who fought for his people's freedom, though he dislikes the chantry)

So, IRL, if I'm some pissed off pagan who will be granted some reward or power for desecrating a christian artifact, it becomes a question of practicality rather than morality.

As for the Wynn debate... some good points have been made in defence of certain things she does, but it will still depend upon my character, how her actions and words are taken. My Dalish is very disillusioned at this point, and very grateful to have Zevran supporting him. I'm begining to think Dristen might fall apart emotionally and contemplate the US if not for Zev. He's having his heart ripped out and stomped on by the big bad world he's been made to wander, never knowing if he'll ever see his clan again. And for him, Wynn has been less than understanding. He's starting to feel a bit like Aneirin in reguards to Wynn. I don't know if she'll show enough of a good side again for him to warm back up to her, or if he's going to really have a wedge driven permanently between him and this mage he at first felt so warmly for. The whole Aneirin issue really put him off. When he sees her racism towards Ohgren, if it comes up in this play through, I think it will be a last straw. Dristen has gone out of his way to try to ignore prejudice and respect different races. For someone who sees herself as such a wise old crone to act that way is not going to sit well at all.

I don't think anyone is really trying to say 'there are only good options and jerk options, and if you pick the jerk options, your PC is a jerk.'

As you've pointed out, in DA we play a character, and our character may have perfectly valid reasons for choosing a morally 'questionable' player path that others would not.  However, you should not then be surprised when a companion of conflicting morals/beliefs reacts negitively to their choices. =)

Obviously the choices would not be their if the devs intended for us to stick to the 'good' all the time.  But as the main character, your actions are always going to have an affect on the ones around you.

Modifié par MorningBird, 06 mars 2010 - 06:47 .

[Ahisgewaya]

Allerleihrau wrote...

Another reason to defile the ashes is, that your PC can't know what will happen if he leaves the Gauntlet with the ashes intact - you have to asume that Kolgrim might call his Andraste to swallow you. Defying cultists, who have a High Dragon as their backup is a very risky thing to do in a world without quicksaves.

This wasn't even an issue for me, as I had already killed the dragon. I like to play as a badass. I buffed everyone, used the horn, then killed the dragon. Why? because it's a known fact that dragons drop scales which can be made by one blacksmith in every game into super armor. How's that for metagaming?

Modifié par Ahisgewaya, 06 mars 2010 - 03:58 .

[ejoslin]

Ahisgewaya wrote...

Allerleihrau wrote...

Another reason to defile the ashes is, that your PC can't know what will happen if he leaves the Gauntlet with the ashes intact - you have to asume that Kolgrim might call his Andraste to swallow you. Defying cultists, who have a High Dragon as their backup is a very risky thing to do in a world without quicksaves.

This wasn't even an issue for me, as I had already killed the dragon. I like to play as a badass. I buffed everyone, used the horn, then killed the dragon. Why? because it's a known fact that dragons drop scales which can be made by one blacksmith in every game into super armor. How's that for metagaming?

But doesn't that mean you already killed the cultists?  You only get that horn when Kolgrim dies.

Modifié par ejoslin, 06 mars 2010 - 04:00 .