329 réponses à ce sujet

[Herr Uhl]

ejoslin wrote...

Then you get all the anti-Zevran posts (all say the same thing, interestingly), and yet . . . he is by far the smartest and most savvy of the companions, whose advice really IS good and practical and worth following.

...yeah, no bias at all.

[ejoslin]

Herr Uhl wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Then you get all the anti-Zevran posts (all say the same thing, interestingly), and yet . . . he is by far the smartest and most savvy of the companions, whose advice really IS good and practical and worth following.

...yeah, no bias at all.

Hah, he is though!  Unless maybe Morrigan . . . naw, I don't like her advice!  Alistair?  Hmmmm. Ooooh, perhaps Shale, but she never gives advice!

Edit: I never did claim not to be biased  I knew I'd regret putting that line in, though!

Modifié par ejoslin, 05 mars 2010 - 12:22 .

[Nonvita]

Well, considering who the other people giving advice are, is it really so hard to believe Zevran's is decent in comparison? XD

[rebeltube]

I like her more than Oghren... that Dwarf is boooring.



And she's very useful in my party... her conversation in Ostagar with Alistair is amusing and kinda creepy lol

[krylo]

Gabey5 wrote...

she is old and cramps my style... why must bioware add a wise old person....jolee bindo..

Hey now.  Bindo was awesome.  He never judged you and basically didn't give two ****s about anything.  His entire personality equated to, "I'm too old for this ****," and that's awesome.

He's like the Anti-Wynne as far as old folks go.

[Cuddlezarro]

krylo wrote...

Gabey5 wrote...

she is old and cramps my style... why must bioware add a wise old person....jolee bindo..

Hey now.  Bindo was awesome.  He never judged you and basically didn't give two ****s about anything.  His entire personality equated to, "I'm too old for this ****," and that's awesome.

He's like the Anti-Wynne as far as old folks go.

^ this

while I hated KoTOR Jolee was awesome

[Maria Caliban]

Archereon wrote...

 I don't get why so many players list Wynne as one of their least favorite characters...

Haters gonna hate.

[Schwinni]

rebeltube wrote...

And she's very useful in my party...

That's true, she is useful. I even control her most of the time. Her job is to place in a way that all characters are inside the radius of Cleansing Aura. Well, her job is boring, but perfectly fits to her personality.

[krylo]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Archereon wrote...

 I don't get why so many players list Wynne as one of their least favorite characters...

Haters gonna hate.

[Andraste_Reborn]

Wynne is one of my favourite characters and I find her starting spells suit my playstyle more than Morrigan's. (Well, until Morrigan levels a bit and I teach her some healing spells.) I had a lot of fun in my last playthrough when I specced her as an Arcane Warrior. She was surprisingly effective, and watching her do sword and shield finishing moves on darkspawn was always entertaining *g*.



I can see that she's not for everyone, but I love her. Especially since my first character was a human noble who had recently lost her mother and felt that Wynne did a good job of filling that emotional gap.

[EccentricSage]

Archereon wrote...

I just don't understand why people get so pissed off about someone who's overly patronizing, its really a common enough flaw in real life that I'm used to it.

I don't HATE Wynne... my dad can be a patronising hypocrit as well... but I hate her some of the time, just as with my dad.  I'm not someone who quietly bows down before my elders merely on the basis of age.  If they are respectful to me, I will respect them.  If their advice is well reasoned, I will recieve it well.  However, if there are cases of obvious hypocracy, short sightedness, and personal bias in the elder's advice, I will not respect the elder nor their advice.  I will argue, or else try to lighten the mood.  If those measures are met with defensiveness and a rude tone of voice, then I'm NOT going to even see said person as an equal.  I play my characters this way as well, usualy.  So, no, I can't just smile at her and say she's my favorite grandma.  Of all the party members, she's quickly plumeted to the bottom of the list, just above Leliana.

As for arguments coming up that a good reason to hate Zevran because he tried to kill the Warden... Zevran was a slave trained to be an assassin since the age of 7.  He's been abused and brainwashed in every possible way.  He knows, for a fact, that failing to take jobs and failing to kill marks, means certain death.... or worse.  I can't blame him at all for doing what he did.  Everyone has an inharent right to self preservation.  Besides, if you get to know him, you find out not only that he's a very compassionet person, and a very loyal friend... he also had a very sad and tragic reason for why he took this particular job to kill the Warden, and why it was such a poorly executed attack.  I'll only spoil you for it if you ask me to.

As for Zev picking on Wynne, she started it.  Imagine you had no choice in what you were... a slave... and you've suffered horrificly and overcame so much hurt and trials by fire to be who you are today... And some woman who doesn't even know you, instead of asking you about your feelings, your motivations, instead tries to inflict her limited worldview uppon you and play holier than though.  Zevran's natural reaction to anything to do with the hurt he hides is to deflect with humor.  So he teases Wynne.  And you'll notice as well, that his words ae never cruell or insulting towards her... even when teasing her, he tends to be very complimentary and genuinly seems to have some admeration for what she's capable of.  Wynne chooses not to meet him half way.  She chooses not to see his good humor and kind words and instead to become defensive, because Maker forbid anyone not bend to her will.

Bare in mind Wynne started as one of my favorite characters.  But the more I explored them, the more I found her to be closed minded and self serving, and others who on the surface seem 'bad' to actually be far more honest with the Warden.  Zevran, I initialy liked for his humor, but was pleasantly surprised by his depth, cunning, and the moveing speaches he'll give on behalf of various people in the game if you are considering choosing sides.  One of said speaches is in defence of the Mages, btw.

Modifié par EccentricSage, 05 mars 2010 - 01:57 .

[knittzu]

If you're really interested in the many, many reasons why some of us dislike Wynne and think her "wisdom" is a crock, we have a whole entire thread entitled "Abominable Wynne." Go read it. I personally don't feel like retyping my posts for a different thread, especially when the original still appears on page one of this section.

[BigGuy28]

I never had a problem with Wynne and I'm surprised to see so many did. She seems to me to be what she is, an old woman doing what old women tend to do. I am also surprised to see so many like Zevran, he's a terrible person, I've never used him and the only reason I have him join up is because I'm not the type to just slit a guys throat like that.

[Reaverwind]

EccentricSage wrote...


Bare in mind Wynne started as one of my favorite characters.  But the more I explored them, the more I found her to be closed minded and self serving, and others who on the surface seem 'bad' to actually be far more honest with the Warden.  Zevran, I initialy liked for his humor, but was pleasantly surprised by his depth, cunning, and the moveing speaches he'll give on behalf of various people in the game if you are considering choosing sides.  One of said speaches is in defence of the Mages, btw.

Indeed, that one floored me. So much for his being a cold-blooded killer.

[Cuddlezarro]

BigGuy28 wrote...

I never had a problem with Wynne and I'm surprised to see so many did. She seems to me to be what she is, an old woman doing what old women tend to do. I am also surprised to see so many like Zevran, he's a terrible person, I've never used him and the only reason I have him join up is because I'm not the type to just slit a guys throat like that.

that "terrible person" happens to be alot more caring about people than he would like to admit considering his craptastic upbringing

try siding with cullen or convince the werewolves to murder the dalish with him in your party and that "cold blooded killer" mask drops in 2.5 seconds

[CybAnt1]

She seems to me to be what she is, an old woman doing what old women tend to do.

Telling the young whippersnappers to get the heck off her lawn? 

Yeah, the matronly advice thing really starts to grate on you, esp. when she suddenly pretends to be your grandma giving you relationship advice. 

It's a shame. My joke above aside, it IS refreshing to see that not every character in an RPG has to be youthful and wet behind the ears. Older characters are cool, too. 

However, yes, I did prefer Jolee Bindo to Wynne. She's just old, and very set in her not very well thought out, narrowminded ways. 

[Wolfaura]

I didn't like the way she flirted with Alistair. No wonder she complained about when you're in a relationship with him. She's just sceaming to try and get him herself.

I thought she was ok until RTO. Now with other characters Iam never bringing that old slag with me again. If they meant that banter to be funny it didn't amuse me, I found it annoying and kind of sick it would be like my real mother flirting with my boyfriend which is intolerable and disgusting.

[Reaverwind]

CybAnt1 wrote...

She seems to me to be what she is, an old woman doing what old women tend to do.

Telling the young whippersnappers to get the heck off her lawn? 

Yeah, the matronly advice thing really starts to grate on you, esp. when she suddenly pretends to be your grandma giving you relationship advice. 

It's a shame. My joke above aside, it IS refreshing to see that not every character in an RPG has to be youthful and wet behind the ears. Older characters are cool, too. 

However, yes, I did prefer Jolee Bindo to Wynne. She's just old, and very set in her not very well thought out, narrowminded ways. 

Except the old folks manage to be much more anecdotal and much less preachy with the old advice, and are at least entertaining.  

Modifié par Reaverwind, 05 mars 2010 - 02:32 .

[CybAnt1]

Heh heh heh ... Wynne... the Cougar Chronicles.



Ehhh, who knows. I'm betting she was a real hottie 30 years ago.

[EccentricSage]

BigGuy28 wrote...

I never had a problem with Wynne and I'm surprised to see so many did. She seems to me to be what she is, an old woman doing what old women tend to do. I am also surprised to see so many like Zevran, he's a terrible person, I've never used him and the only reason I have him join up is because I'm not the type to just slit a guys throat like that.

You are only seeing the very surface of the characters.  You need to get to know them and put them in different situations to see their reactions.  You'll be surprised by how much more there is to the characters than the typical sterotypes of Kindly Wise Elder and Amoral Coldhearted Assassin.  They are both WAY more complex than that.

Reaverwind wrote...

EccentricSage wrote...


Bare
in mind Wynne started as one of my favorite characters.  But the more I
explored them, the more I found her to be closed minded and self
serving, and others who on the surface seem 'bad' to actually be far
more honest with the Warden.  Zevran, I initialy liked for his humor,
but was pleasantly surprised by his depth, cunning, and the moveing
speaches he'll give on behalf of various people in the game if you are
considering choosing sides.  One of said speaches is in defence of the
Mages, btw.

Indeed, that one floored me. So much for his being a cold-blooded killer.

It's funny how people project onto characters the archetypical qualities taught to us by society, or by so many bad cliches in literature and entertainment.  The characters in this game realy chalenge that way of interacting with the world, as once you get to know them, if you realy allow yourself to be drawn into their world, you are struck by how wrong you were about things.  Truly this is where DA:O crosses over from entertainment into fine art.

Zevran is designed to apeal to our assumptions that a person who kills people for a living is simply a psychopath incapable of deapth, redemption, or justification.  But in order to beleave any of that, one would have to completely ignore or disbelieve anything he says and be in denial of any good thing he does.  Right from the get-go, there are obvious justifications for Zevran's actions, as well as subtext and heartbreak in his dialogues.  Even when he himself tries to act hardened about the whole assassination thing, thee are moments where his facial expression and vocal inflections betray his true fealings about his life.  If one aproches this character with an open mind, it's obvious right off the bat that he's not cold blooded and that he's just trying to be strong.

One of the things that realy shows that Wynne is NOT wise, is that her relationship talk about Leliana is about how Leliana is a sweet and guiless girl who's heart will be broken.  And yet, Leliana it someone hiding her past, and the fact that she enjoys killing.  Guiless?  LOL  No, Wynn, you're just a fool.  On the other hand, she sees the worst in Zevran, just because he has the nerve not to hide what he is nor apologise for doing what he had to survive.  She never acnowleges his good side untill AFTER he's in the Love zone.  This realy struck me, because it was so obvious even at 'warm' or 'care', that he was bonding with my character and wants to protect the warden.  It's not hard to see if you take him with on missions and read between the lines in his camp dialogues.  I aplaud the writer for giveing us the option to tell Wynn, after she speeks of there now being a tenderness to his gaze, that it was ALWAYS there.  I don't like how she gets a bit defensive about it when I say that, though.  She can never admit she may have just been completely wrong.  She always has to have an excuse that keeps her in the right.

Modifié par EccentricSage, 05 mars 2010 - 03:21 .

[CalJones]

krylo wrote...

Gabey5 wrote...

she is old and cramps my style... why must bioware add a wise old person....jolee bindo..

Hey now.  Bindo was awesome.  He never judged you and basically didn't give two ****s about anything.  His entire personality equated to, "I'm too old for this ****," and that's awesome.

He's like the Anti-Wynne as far as old folks go.

I can't belive someone compared Jolee to Wynne. Jolee is pure awesome - I  him! He and Canderous made up my party for pretty much the whole game (I  Candy too).
Wynne, on the other hand, is a sancitmonious old baggage.

[DarkCamel]

I think I will retain a soft spot in my heart for Wynne from my first playthrough. She is the only one who actually seemed to care about the Warden's past. No other characters have more than a line or so about the Warden's past, and then only in comparison to their own upbringing. The other characters remind me of the Sloth Demon with his "can't you think about anyone but yourself" statement. At least Wynne seems to give a damn.



Wynne is a character who fits in well with mages who respect and even entertain returning to the Circle, and a good fit for nobles in particular who need a shoulder to cry on while mourning a lost family. She also fits well with a character that is unsure what to do and genuinely needs guidance.



She is a lousy fit for elves and those who love elves, which makes me think there is a nasty racist streak running through Wynne. She also fits poorly with anyone who hates the chantry.



Net result, like all of the NPCs, Wynne is complex and flawed enough not to fit into every party. I have a characters (both elves) that hate Wynne for her attitude and inappropriate lectures. I also have a HNF that is devastated by her own mother's loss, and uses Wynne as a mother figure.



Its all situational. Thats why its fun (and replayable).

[Sabriana]

It's not only situational. It depends on character development, interaction, and player choices. My HNFs all despise her. She is so little like their mother, they don't even start comparing the two. Eleanor was realistic, loving, and tolerant. Eleanor trusts them, and loves them. The Cousland parents give my PCs enough credit for leadership that they decide to leave her in charge of the Teyrnie, all by herself. They certainly seem to think she's capable, as does Fergus. Wynne is none of that, does none of that, and she certainly doesn't love them like their mother did. She barely even knows my PCs.

They like Morrigan and Zevran, and utterly resent Wynne's treatment of them. Zevran is even trying to be kind and reassuring, plus, his heartfelt plea for the mages should give her at least some pause. It doesn't.

My HNF are all in the age range of 26 - 27, and resent her meddling in their private business. Neither Eleanor, nor Bryce, nor Fergus did that, what right does a woman my HNFs just met have to stick her nose so far in?

Listening to her blabbing on about the GWs told all my PCs that her advice should be taken with several grains of salt, and later on her advice is usually dismissed, because it's downright bad (Aneirin)

I don't hate her. I dislike her, but my PCs can't bring themselves to kill her, so she tends the fire at camp. That's all she's good for in the eyes of my HNF PCs.

[MorningBird]

It's funny, a lot of people have commented that if you're a Zevran fan, you'll understand why Wynne is so hated... but Zevran is one of my top five favorite DA characters (possibly ranking #1), IS my favorite romance option, and I personally hold no resentment towards Wynne.

I have multiple playthroughs, I have romanced many of the Characters, but the Zevran romance is the only one I've seen from start to finish so far (twice).  I think my lack of meta-gaming knowledge may partially be the reason I'm able to see her in a more positive light.  The only perspective of Wynne that I know is that of my City Elf (haven't gotten far enough in the other playthroughts).

My City Elf never wanted to leave his family, and hated being cornered between death and--in his mind--slavery to the Grey Wardens.  He didn't feel like he was truly being given a choice so much as a leash, and the speech your father gives you at the end of that origin... that he 'dreamed of grandchildren', and that terribly depressed sigh of his... my PC felt as though he'd somehow died upon seeing his father's reaction.  His old life was effectively being taken away.  Fortunately he's a survivor, so he tried (unsuccessfully) to bury his past and accept his new present.

Then suddenly he's one of the only 2 remaining Grey Wardens in all of Ferelden, and instantly promoted to the position of Grey Warden Commander when he's never before been allowed a station of authority.

I like to think that my PC had good judgment, but he was not beyond listening to the advice of his companions, and that includes Wynne.

I bring this up only to point out that I played a character that was not as secure in his leadership capabilities as he led others to believe.  I get the feeling--from reading this thread--that there are many posters here with born leader PCs (which isn't a bad thing, by any means) and I think that's where this divide is drawn.

A born leader PC doesn't need Wynne's advice, nor would they see it as useful or even correct (and as a leader, they could quite possibly be right on all accounts).

A self-conscious PC, with a grudge towards their Grey Warden status, would feel more at loss, and more open to her advice.

I'm not trying to say that there are only 2 ways to play a character.  Someone out there has probably played a PC who's an outstanding leader, loved by their entire party, that considers Wynne the sweet grandmother they never had.  Likewise, there are also people who have played a Grey Warden unhappy with the duty they've been saddled with, who'd sooner tell Wynne to shove a cork in it than listen to a drip of her advice, not to mention the countless combinations in between.

Some people see Wynne as a self-righteous ninny, my perspective just happened to give me a very different interpretation of Wynne's relationship lecture.

My City Elf completely considered what Wynne had to say (even though at the time he thought his dalliances with Zevran were more 'fun' and 'stress relief' than anything else.  He hadn't acknowledged his feelings by that point.  Denial is fun).  In fact, this conversation is what prompted him to take the relationship more seriously.  He was forced to realize that Zevran was not something he wished to give up, and that their relationship meant more to him than he was willing to admit.

If you don't go into that conversation with a, "You have no business getting yourself involved in my personal affairs, I'm wrangling an army on my own, and I can decide for myself what's right!" mindset, you get a totally different perspective on this confrontation.

And in context, regardless as to whether or not 'Wynne was meaner to him than other romance options', Wynne's advice is still sound from an outsider's perspective.  Zevran DOES seem to have 'only one thing on his mind', and Wynne DOESN'T know he can be trusted.  The fact that Zevran tries to reinforce the other characters' negative perceptions of him doesn't help matters (though it's damn amusing to watch).

Zevran hangs around in camp, but that doesn't mean he's as forthright with your companions as he is with the PC (and considering how much of his life, thoughts and feelings he tries to cover up even when addressing the PC, that's saying a lot).  I always felt that the conversations he shared with the PC were by and large personal, things he'd prefer not to let the others know or see.

Zevran and the PC form a kinship (they're both products of struggle and excellence) that he can't, or won't, with the others (he even hesitates in acknowledging that he and Leliana are similar, so this is not insignificant).

Thus, the PC is the only one truly presented with an opportunity to get to know and trust him, if they actively try to learn more about him, of course.  Not all of the party members are going to show the same initiative.  Some do, but not all, and the last time Wynne inquired, one of the funniest conversations I've ever had the pleasure of hearing occurred. xD  So I don't much fault her for knowing/understanding so little about Zevran's character.

And say 'Wynne struck first' all you like, in means very little to me.  Someone can call me a big, smelly doo-doo head, but that doesn't mean I'm going to turn around and chuck a rock at their head. XP

People also seem to dislike Wynne because of something she says in the fade. "We found each other in this place." Some people translate this line as her taking all the credit for the Warden's efforts.  Once again, I'm of a different perspective.

In regards to her statement, I remember the line, "What once was lost, has now been found."  Yes, the Grey Warden does all the dirty work... does that mean Wynne wasn't found?  That you didn't find your lost party members and bring them all together?  That you didn't find each other in the Fade?

Perhaps it would have been preferred if she'd said, "The Grey Warden found us in this place!" but that really doesn't have the same impact... of union, of presenting a strong front against an enemy who is in his element.  I've always liked having a sense of comradery in my games, so Wynne's way of phrasing this scenario truly doesn't bother me.

To me, the fact that she says 'we' is significant.  She's saying that despite the demon's efforts to separate you, you were brought back together.

Obviously the line can be interpreted differently, but it's hardly evidence that Wynne is a bag and credit thief. xD  Good reason to dislike her though?  Of course!

So is her ****-blocking.

Once again, it's a video game, and people's perceptions of the characters are entirely based upon their player experience.  Personally, I think it's a bit useless to get worked up over why so-and-so hates this character, but loves that one, and so on and so on...  Because in a game like Dragon Age where you're able to get behind your own character and truly play someone with thoughts and emotions and personality, amidst such brilliant party members, you're going to find people you hate in your immersion.

Nobody is wrong to dislike a character, nobody is wrong to like a character.  I think what matters most is YOUR experiance, and how you felt coming out of it.  You shouldn't allow someone else's experience to ruin it for you.

On the otherhand, if you ask someone what they dislike about a character, you really shouldn't be all that surprised when they give you an answer.

My two cents. xD *bowing out now*

Modifié par MorningBird, 05 mars 2010 - 11:12 .

[Sabriana]

True enough, it does depend on the player. However, I have to counter the 'Zevran' bit. When the two meet, he tries to be kind and supportive. There is at least one conversation between Zevran and Wynne that should give her some pause, and think a little about her attitude, but it doesn't.

Zevran isn't the only one who uses sexual innuendo, and he is far less crude about it.

The way she starts in on him, I can only see his reactions as deflections and wishing to shut her up, and he succeeds. Wynne has plenty of food for thought about Zevran, and she should think about her own sexual innuendo 'jokes' before passing judgment.

I've only watched her behavior at the Guardian with a City Elf, and it was not pretty. I've not played one myself, and meta-gaming or not, she will definitely *not* accompany my PC CE when she goes to the Guardian.

And I truly wish my PC could interfere in her talk with Aneirin, and tell him not to listen to her, and not to go back to the tower under any circumstances. Just to make sure he stays put. He is a very nice NPC, and I wouldn't want the templars to get another stab at him. He's labeled a blood-mage, and I don't think the templars would go through any kind of guilty/innocent process (I don't think they ever do that at any rate), especially after what just happened at the tower.

However, it is most certainly up to each and every player to see her as s/he wants to. Any character that calls forth such a wide arc of emotions is a well written one, flaws and all.

Modifié par Sabriana, 05 mars 2010 - 11:30 .