329 réponses à ce sujet

[ejoslin]

See, I guess I was just the most bothered by the CE and the HN for the reasons I stated. I realize other people see things differently. Even if you think her advice is always inappropriate there, though, don't you think it's far FAR worse for CE and HN? If not, that's just something we'll have to disagree about. My guess is, though, most people who see her there who aren't upset are not playing a CE or a HN. Really, even the guardian's comments really stung for those two origins.

[Addai]

Aynslie wrote...

 I feel like she is my grandma in the game.   And I think that is probably what she is suppose to be like.  I like her.  She isn't my favorite character because the others are just incredibly interesting compared to her but he when the world is falling apart around me I like that little bit of encouragement from her.  Shes the camp mommy.  Without her Alistair wouldn't have dry socks and his shirts would all have holes in them.

See, I think this take on Wynne does the character no credit.  She is more complicated than this.  The fact that the Guardian calls her out, that she's an abomination, and the blatantly hypocritical things in her character are clues that the writers themselves don't intend her just to be "camp mommy."

See, we Wynne haters are doing everyone a favor by pointing these things out.  You're welcome. 

Modifié par Addai67, 05 mars 2010 - 04:55 .

[Sabriana]

That's actually true for my PTSD HN rogue. She was suffering from guilt-trips something fierce, and the Guardian poured salt into her wounds. Then comes Wynne and makes it a thousand times worse. That was actually the starting point of my PC leaving Wynne behind in camp. She still didn't dislike her, she just didn't want her around. Then Aneirin happened, and that was it. My rogue never talked to Wynne again in that play-through.



rofl @ Addai

How kind you are. *bows*

[mousestalker]

I think a lot of the Wynne haters act on meta knowledge. My City elf did not like Wynne at all. She came across to her very much like Trian does in the DN origin when they were at the Gauntlet. The thing with Caladrius just sealed the deal, as it were. My CE's motivations for joining the Grey Wardens were straight forward. She hoped that by accepting all of the blame for the massacre at the palace her people might be spared. That didn't happen and she was frantic the entire game about getting into the Alienage to find out what was going on. Shianni told her that her father had been quarantined. For Wynne to be blathering about blood mages was just incomprehensible.



Roleplaying each character meant that my Dalish had a whole other view of Wynne. She felt that she should have returned to the Keeper and that not doing so was wrong. She knew nothing of the Circle and how it works, other than as a giant cage, and so had no basis to judge Wynne. Anything Wynne did that seemed 'off' she attributed to being her being human.

[Sabriana]

Hmm, what did your Dalish do when she heard Wynne's 'advice' to Aneirin. Iirc, Aneirin had been saved by a dalish clan after the templars left the child for dead.

No, I'm not being sarcastic, just nosy.

[mousestalker]

Not much. Wynne was largely irrelevant to her. And she felt Aneirin handled Wynne well. The opinions of Shems mattered little to my Dalish.

Think of how Elizabeth Bennet concludes her fight with Lady Catherine de Burgh: "I am only resolved to act in that manner, which will, in my own opinion, constitute my happiness, without reference to you, or to any person so wholly unconnected with me."

Modifié par mousestalker, 05 mars 2010 - 04:13 .

[Sabriana]

mousestalker wrote...

Not much. Wynne was largely irrelevant to her. And she felt Aneirin handled Wynne well. The opinions of Shems mattered little to my Dalish.

Think of how Elizabeth Bennet concludes her fight with Lady Catherine de Burgh: "I am only resolved to act in that manner, which will, in my own opinion, constitute my happiness, without reference to you, or to any person so wholly unconnected with me."

Yes Aneirin was great. He is one of the NPCs I really like. I could also picture a dalish to get angry and suspect shenanigans on Wynne's part. I've not gotten far with my dalish, but I have the feeling they are not very trusting toward shems and ready to think the worst.

And 'Stolz und Vorurteil' ftw (that's German for Pride and Prejudice )

I really should try to read that one in English. I'm getting the feeling it's much better than the translated version.

[Archereon]

Seems you've all hyjacked this thread for "Abominable Wynne 2.0"...



Well I've reevaluated my opinion of Wynne a little bit, I kind of pity her.



She knows she has only a few months at the most left to live. Since she might not live long enough to see the blight ended, she tries to

[Addai]

Archereon wrote...

Seems you've all hyjacked this thread for "Abominable Wynne 2.0"...

You did ask "why the hate."  You didn't want answers?

My elf mage pities Wynne, too, but mainly because she sees her as a Chantry/Circle mouthpiece who is stuck in the indoctrination and can't move on.

[Helios969]

ejoslin wrote...

Helios969 wrote...

Well, you can always just ignore her if you don't like the advice. That's what I did when she was telling me to break it off with Leliana and Morrigan at different points in different games. She admitted she was wrong about both later on.

I'm not familiar (or recall) the city elf thing you discussed above. What triggers that?

When you go to Andastre's temple, you have to do a series of tests to get to the ashes.  You speak to a guardian who reveals the most personal, painful thing about the companions there.  The question is always about the Warden's recruitment.  If you're unaware of the City Elf origin, for the female, she and her bridal party are kidnapped on their wedding day by the Arl of Denerim's son.  His guards kill one of the women before taking all the elves except the CEF, whom they're saving for last.  Her cousin Soris and her finace Nelaros manage to get into the estate, Soris gets to her while Nelaros stands guard at the end of the hall. So the CEF and Soris start killing their way to the women.  They get to Nelaros just in time to see him murdered.  She can stop and grab his wedding ring, and then she and Soris keep going, fighting, killing, doing everything in their power to get to the women.  But by the time they get there, Shianni has been gang raped and is on the floor crying.  So she kills the noblemen, and they get the rest of the bridal party and go back to the alienage.  Of course, the guards come, and that's when Duncan conscripts her.

Anyway, Wynne has generic answers at the Gauntlet.  If you say that you are not to blame for whatever it is, she tells you it's sometimes hard for you to see the outcome of your actions at the time.  If you say you are responsible, she tells you you need to accept your failings.

Both those pieces of advice are grossly inappropriate for CE and HN origins.  They're not so inappropriate for the other origins.  But at the same time, the Guardian does ask Wynne if she ever doubts her advice, that she only spouts platitudes, and she acknowledges she does have doubts, only a fool is certain always.  But given her advice is SO generic, and sometimes good, sometimes inappropriate, it can come across as either wise or as insulting, depending on the situation.

Now I remember.  Yeah, I didn't have Wynne in my party that play through of the Sacred Ashes.  I still feel hate is too strong a word in which to apply toward her, regardless of how inappropriate her advice may be (seem) at times.  The word hate for me is up there with the C-word for women.  In this game, the only character that truly makes me feel that way is Howe.  Maybe Bhelan.

At any rate, I think her intentions are good.  And I'd rather keep people around with good intentions that may say things I don't want to hear than someone with questionable motives who whisper 'sweet nothings.'  Kind of like the ego-fragile boss who surrounds him/herself with 'yes men/women.'

[ejoslin]

Addai67 wrote...

Archereon wrote...

Seems you've all hyjacked this thread for "Abominable Wynne 2.0"...

You did ask "why the hate."  You didn't want answers?

My elf mage pities Wynne, too, but mainly because she sees her as a Chantry/Circle mouthpiece who is stuck in the indoctrination and can't move on.

Heh, he didn't want to know why people don't like Wynne; he just wanted to tell everyone how wrong they were for feeling that way!

[ejoslin]

Helios969 wrote...

Now I remember.  Yeah, I didn't have Wynne in my party that play through of the Sacred Ashes.  I still feel hate is too strong a word in which to apply toward her, regardless of how inappropriate her advice may be (seem) at times.  The word hate for me is up there with the C-word for women.  In this game, the only character that truly makes me feel that way is Howe.  Maybe Bhelan.

At any rate, I think her intentions are good.  And I'd rather keep people around with good intentions that may say things I don't want to hear than someone with questionable motives who whisper 'sweet nothings.'  Kind of like the ego-fragile boss who surrounds him/herself with 'yes men/women.'

I actually don't HATE Wynne, though I have seen her at her absolute worst (when she tells the warden she hopes the darkspawn takes them).  I think she's a wonderfully flawed character, just like all the others.  She's well written, well acted, and there is far more to her than first meets the eye.  Unfortunately, to give her character depth, there needs to be bad under the good grandma exterior.

I find her story heartbreaking as well, for what it's worth.  No one comes to your party undamaged.

[Sabriana]

Hate is a strong word, and in my case, not applicable to Wynne. I don't like her, but I do not hate her. My PCs feel very sorry for her, especially being forced to relinquish her child, but they also can't get over the fact that she just doesn't learn.

She is neither savior, nor a good adviser, nor the goody-goody grandmom. She is very flawed and scarred, just like most everyone else in this game. She wants to be all that, but she simply lacks the proper tools for it. In many cases, her input has the great potential to make a bad situation worse.

[DalishRanger]

Wynne's far from perfect, but I love the old lady. I find her witty and mostly wise, though she is admittedly quite stubborn and doesn't always see things in the right light - but who does, really? As for the commentary on romances... She apologizes later and I see it as her genuinely being concerned for the Warden and the LI (if she likes the Warden, at least), so I don't personally hold it against her.

Obviously from various other threads and this one, not everyone's going to feel the same. Just hopped int to give my two coppers. Now I'm hopping out.

Modifié par DalishRanger, 05 mars 2010 - 05:27 .

[amethyst_rose2009]

ejoslin wrote...


I actually don't HATE Wynne, though I have seen her at her absolute worst (when she tells the warden she hopes the darkspawn takes them). 

Omg, she will say that?  LOL, I can't imagine little Granny Wynne saying something like that.  That would be hilarious to see just once.  I don't really hate her.  In fact she ended up like my elven mage's granny, but in real life I can't stand preachy, know-it-all people like that.  I usually don't take Wynne along with my party, so maybe if I did I might dislike her more.  I only used her for the mage's tower quest and to get the scene where she faints to find out about her "spirit".  I do feel sorry for her though.  Especially about her son that she had to give up.  Odd that they didn't use that as her personal quest instead of that "elf in the forest" quest. That just seemed to lack any real meaning like finding her son would have had.

Oh and of course her banter with Alistair is the funniest in the game.

Modifié par amethyst_rose2009, 05 mars 2010 - 05:35 .

[mousestalker]

amethyst_rose2009 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...


I actually don't HATE Wynne, though I have seen her at her absolute worst (when she tells the warden she hopes the darkspawn takes them). 

Omg, she will say that?  LOL, I can't imagine little Granny Wynne saying something like that.  That would be hilarious to see just once.  I don't really hate her.  In fact she ended up like my elven mage's granny, but in real life I can't stand preachy, know-it-all people like that.  I usually don't take Wynne along with my party, so maybe if I did I might dislike her more.  I only used her for the mage's tower quest and to get the scene where she faints to find out about her "spirit".  I do feel sorry for her though.  Especially about her son that she had to give up.  Odd that they didn't use that as her personal quest instead of that "elf in the forest" quest. That just seemed to lack any real meaning like finding her son would have had.

Here you go.

[amethyst_rose2009]

mousestalker wrote...


Here you go.

Awww..... 

Actually that was pretty funny.  I've never seen Wynne pissed before. LOL. 

Modifié par amethyst_rose2009, 05 mars 2010 - 05:37 .

[mousestalker]

I agree completely about Wynne's personal quest. Finding her son would have been a great quest. Even if her son wound up being Lord Vaughan Urien. Actually, especially if her son wound up being Vaughan. Can you imagine the City Elf's reaction? "Wynne, the good news is that your son was adopted by the Arl of Denerim. The bad news is I gutted him for raping my cousin. Sorry about that."

[Sabriana]

DalishRanger wrote...

Wynne's far from perfect, but I love the old lady. I find her witty and mostly wise, though she is admittedly quite stubborn and doesn't always see things in the right light - but who does, really? As for the commentary on romances... She apologizes later and I see it as her genuinely being concerned for the Warden and the LI (if she likes the Warden, at least), so I don't personally hold it against her.

Obviously from various other threads and this one, not everyone's going to feel the same. Just hopped int to give my two coppers. Now I'm hopping out.

No hopping! Stay and face the consequences of your post DR.

The thing is that she takes it very badly if the PC doesn't scrape and bow. Her whole outlook is completely skewed, but she never learns. One of the worst problems with Wynne is not actually her fault, but the way her dialogues go. The PC can either be a snot-nosed brat or a boot-licker. There is no middle ground, and there is no way for the PC to make her see why things are not the way she views them.

Perhaps it's intentional, who knows. The PC is the leader. She never asked Wynne to join, it was the other way around. The ultimate decisions belong to the PC, but Wynne feels the need to interject at the worst places with the worst possible input.

Gauntlet and CE, HN
Slaver and CE
"I hope the darkspawn gets you"
Blood Mage and Tower
The Ashes
The Zevran talk
Aneirin
Trying to coax the mageWarden back into the tower, and getting all upset whe she declines. She, however, has no plans to go back herself.

And that's just off the top of my head.

She is far from a 'nice old lady', imo. She is flawed and broken, but unlike the other characters, she never grows, never sees her faults.

[ejoslin]

mousestalker wrote...

amethyst_rose2009 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...


I actually don't HATE Wynne, though I have seen her at her absolute worst (when she tells the warden she hopes the darkspawn takes them). 

Omg, she will say that?  LOL, I can't imagine little Granny Wynne saying something like that.  That would be hilarious to see just once.  I don't really hate her.  In fact she ended up like my elven mage's granny, but in real life I can't stand preachy, know-it-all people like that.  I usually don't take Wynne along with my party, so maybe if I did I might dislike her more.  I only used her for the mage's tower quest and to get the scene where she faints to find out about her "spirit".  I do feel sorry for her though.  Especially about her son that she had to give up.  Odd that they didn't use that as her personal quest instead of that "elf in the forest" quest. That just seemed to lack any real meaning like finding her son would have had.

Here you go.

What's really interesting about that, actually, is that the Grey Wardens until that point, according to Wynne, are supposedly the one thing that gives people hope and gives her hope.  I have to wonder if those bits of complete hypocrisy are deliberate.  Of course, you don't hear that talk if she tries to kill you outright (same thing prompts it, just depends whether she's there or at camp when it happens), but it's very interesting nonetheless.

Again, this is NOT a slam (*sigh* I shouldn't have to say that, actually).  It's just showing another side of Wynne. The very short sighted side.

[amethyst_rose2009]

mousestalker wrote...

I agree completely about Wynne's personal quest. Finding her son would have been a great quest. Even if her son wound up being Lord Vaughan Urien. Actually, especially if her son wound up being Vaughan. Can you imagine the City Elf's reaction? "Wynne, the good news is that your son was adopted by the Arl of Denerim. The bad news is I gutted him for raping my cousin. Sorry about that."

ROFL!!!  I"ve got tears streaming down my face, I'm laughing so hard.  Ha, I was kinda hoping her son was Cullen.  Cullen as Wynne's and Irving's son would be hilarious too.  Or maybe Wynne's and Gregoir's son.  That would just be awful but so funny.   Or maybe Wynne was secretly disguised as this girl named Vivian from The Calling and she had a baby with the awesome bearded Gray Warden himself, hehehe.  Now that would be the best of all.

[Reaverwind]

Sabriana wrote...

No hopping! Stay and face the consequences of your post DR.

The thing is that she takes it very badly if the PC doesn't scrape and bow. Her whole outlook is completely skewed, but she never learns. One of the worst problems with Wynne is not actually her fault, but the way her dialogues go. The PC can either be a snot-nosed brat or a boot-licker. There is no middle ground, and there is no way for the PC to make her see why things are not the way she views them.

Perhaps it's intentional, who knows. The PC is the leader. She never asked Wynne to join, it was the other way around. The ultimate decisions belong to the PC, but Wynne feels the need to interject at the worst places with the worst possible input.

QFT. I absolutely agree.

[Sabriana]

Aside from that, what is it with the 'one great hope'? My PCs could never justify killing the high dragon (no, not even for the armor), she was only protecting her nestlings, after all. In the epilogue it is told that the ashes simply disappear. Perhaps Andraste wasn't too keen on having her trash bin goggled at.



And no, my PCs couldn't possibly have known that leaving the dragon alive would lead to the disappearing ashes somehow.

[Archereon]

Okay, I have to defend Wynne's intention not to go back to the mages tower, though both of you aren't going to have as much time left as you expected (you being a grey warden and all), Wynne is about to die, she might have only weeks left. People with terminal illnesses generally want to wrap up their affairs before the time comes.

[ejoslin]

Why do you think Wynne needs defending? I'm sure she doesn't really CARE at all! And I bet the writers laugh their asses off at conversations like these!

Edit: After all, I thought you just wanted to know why people didn't like her!

Modifié par ejoslin, 05 mars 2010 - 05:55 .