329 réponses à ce sujet

[mousestalker]

I'm positive she doesn't care, what with her being a fictional character and all.......

Modifié par mousestalker, 05 mars 2010 - 05:55 .

[Reaverwind]

Archereon wrote...

Okay, I have to defend Wynne's intention not to go back to the mages tower, though both of you aren't going to have as much time left as you expected (you being a grey warden and all), Wynne is about to die, she might have only weeks left. People with terminal illnesses generally want to wrap up their affairs before the time comes.

Actually, she has a more compelling reason. Remember that little spirit helper of hers? You think the Templars are going react favorably when they find out?

[mousestalker]

Templars, schmemplars. They never figured out what Uldred was up to, did they? I'm positive after a lifetime spent in the Tower, Wynne is expert at concealing what she is doing. Irving certainly is.

Modifié par mousestalker, 05 mars 2010 - 06:00 .

[IanPolaris]

Why do I hate Wynne? Play the game with the bloodmage dialog enabled and you'll quickly see why. BTW, the dialog is the ORIGINAL part of the game and thus part of Wynne's characer. Wynne doesn't bat an eyelash if you let a malifcar go, but if you are are a bloodmage yourself she does her level best to get you AND the party killed,needlessly risking the templars and circle (which you just got saving for her) in the process....and yet if you don't save Irving, she stays nice and quiet.



Not only is Wynne a hypocrit but a stupid and hateful hypocrit at that. I can't imagine anyone going through that scene and having any liking or respect for Wynne.



-Polaris

[Sabriana]

Wynne doesn't care?
That's what you all think. My second cousin twice removed told me that Bodhan told his friend's friend that he heard Wynne mutter "May the darkspawn take all these forumites"

Modifié par Sabriana, 05 mars 2010 - 06:01 .

[mousestalker]

Sabriana wrote...

Wynne doesn't care?
That's what you all think. My second cousin twice removed told me that Bodhan told his friend's friend that he heard Wynne mutter "May the darkspawn take all these forumites"

Wow. Who knew? 

[Drasanil]

I've mentionned it in a previous thread but it is worth repeating.



In the end it's really simple, people dislike Wynne because she is Lawful Stupid, which is also what -I suspect- makes her so appealing to people who like playing White Knight characters, once they get her they don't need to put up with Morrigan's b!tching over every good deed they do and if in doubt one can simply follow the "infallible" moral compass that is Wynne.

[Reaverwind]

Drasanil wrote...

I've mentionned it in a previous thread but it is worth repeating.

In the end it's really simple, people dislike Wynne because she is Lawful Stupid, which is also what -I suspect- makes her so appealing to people who like playing White Knight characters, once they get her they don't need to put up with Morrigan's b!tching over every good deed they do and if in doubt one can simply follow the "infallible" moral compass that is Wynne.

Oh indeed, that's absolutely Wynne to a tee. LOL

[Sabriana]

Yes, Mousestalker. That's very reliable gossip.

@ Drasanil
Lawful stupid? I don't think I ever heard that phrase. Good one. Morrigan does seem to grow over the course of the game. Her disapproving of good deeds has merit, although people have to look deeper. She despises sugar-coating, that's why she dislikes the dalish hunter being lied to. To Morrigan, reality is what it is and should be faced squared on. Her line "The truth doesn't simply go away" points to that.

She objects to making the merchant compromise because it's hypocrisy in her eyes. She thinks that many of the refugees would act in just the same way, and she could well be right. She objects to giving people all kinds of cash because it would be better spent with the Warden and her crew. They are fighting all kinds of bad dudes and need the cash for weapons, potions, armor, etc.

There are many instances where she doesn't object to good deeds. Not a peep from her.

So, contrary to Wynne, Morrigan learns and grows.

A true good character will help those who see things with a skewed eye. She will support the growth in characters. She will also see to it that bad advice is never heeded, and she should see lethal advice and nip it right in the bud, no matter where it comes from.

Modifié par Sabriana, 05 mars 2010 - 06:16 .

[EccentricSage]

Addai67 wrote...

Archereon wrote...

Seems you've all hyjacked this thread for "Abominable Wynne 2.0"...

You did ask "why the hate."  You didn't want answers?

My elf mage pities Wynne, too, but mainly because she sees her as a Chantry/Circle mouthpiece who is stuck in the indoctrination and can't move on.

This brings an interesting thought to mind... She describes the spirit that poseses her and lends her power as a 'faith spirit'... And she admits that when she was young she was rebelious, didn't accept her lot in life, and thought the Chantry were fools...  Then, one day that changed when she felt this sence of peace and purpose...    Sounds mighty suspicious, doesn't it.  We know from the fade dream that she is NOT as aware and apt in the fade as she pretends to be.  Perhaps this made her an easy vessel for a faith spirit wanting to manipulate someone for the sake of the Chantry and religious folks that feed faith spirits with warship, theoreticaly?  Maybe it's not much better than a demon.  (Funny, this reminds me of something from the occult IRL... Angels and Fallen both being dangerous manipulators of humanity.  Just one theory.  lol)

Sabriana wrote...

Aside from that, what is it with the
'one great hope'? My PCs could never justify killing the high dragon
(no, not even for the armor), she was only protecting her nestlings,
after all. In the epilogue it is told that the ashes simply disappear.
Perhaps Andraste wasn't too keen on having her trash bin goggled at.

And no, my PCs couldn't possibly have known that leaving the dragon alive would lead to the disappearing ashes somehow.

Same here.  Dristen was perfectly happy to take Zev's sugestion that we just sneek around it.  LOL  I felt realy guilty afterward about all the cultists we... masacred...  Dristen could understand why they faught.  We did what we had to do... but once we got to the Urn, and betrayed the cultists, I felt realy bad... well... as did Dristen.  They opted not to go back and finish off the rest.  Let them warship their Dragons.  as long as they never help the Tevinter Emperium, nor begin to emulate their ways, I see no reason to interfere.  I imagine Dristen having a very somber talk with Alistair and Zev back at camp about what they just did.  I hope the Arl apreciates the sacrafices that were made for him.  (yet he wouldn't let me free Jowan, who'd done his best to help put right what he had a hand in screwing up)

Addai67 wrote...

Aynslie wrote...

 I feel like she is my grandma in the game. ../../../images/forum/emoticons/smile.png  And
I think that is probably what she is suppose to be like.  I like her.
 She isn't my favorite character because the others are just incredibly
interesting compared to her but he when the world is falling apart
around me I like that little bit of encouragement from her.  Shes the
camp mommy.  Without her Alistair wouldn't have dry socks and his
shirts would all have holes in them.

See, I think this take
on Wynne does the character no credit.  She is more complicated than
this.  The fact that the Guardian calls her out, that she's an
abomination, and the blatantly hypocritical things in her character are
clues that the writers themselves don't intend her just to be "camp
mommy."

See, we Wynne haters are doing everyone a favor by pointing these things out.  You're welcome.  ../../../images/forum/emoticons/tongue.png

I agree.  I may like her and respect her less the more I get to know her, but I also apreciate the writing all the more for it! 

The only flaw I notice in the writing for Wynn is unsatisfactory dialogue options at some realy key moments that realy screwed up my RP.  My Dalish didn't want to play nice and pacify her about the whole Anarin story, much less justify the poor guy's assumed murder at the hands of templars as 'worth it if she learned from it'.  God, that was gut wrenching!!!!

But I do really apreciate how dark and twisted Wynn actualy is if you realy analise her.  Yet there's still enough that's likable or admerable about her to where instead of hating her, i see her as rather tragic and frustrating, but still at times endearing.  A very complicated caracter.

Modifié par EccentricSage, 05 mars 2010 - 06:41 .

[Helios969]

mousestalker wrote...

amethyst_rose2009 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...


I actually don't HATE Wynne, though I have seen her at her absolute worst (when she tells the warden she hopes the darkspawn takes them). 

Omg, she will say that?  LOL, I can't imagine little Granny Wynne saying something like that.  That would be hilarious to see just once.  I don't really hate her.  In fact she ended up like my elven mage's granny, but in real life I can't stand preachy, know-it-all people like that.  I usually don't take Wynne along with my party, so maybe if I did I might dislike her more.  I only used her for the mage's tower quest and to get the scene where she faints to find out about her "spirit".  I do feel sorry for her though.  Especially about her son that she had to give up.  Odd that they didn't use that as her personal quest instead of that "elf in the forest" quest. That just seemed to lack any real meaning like finding her son would have had.

Here you go.

Well, I feel like I've walked into the middle of a movie.  What is the context?  What did the character do to invoke Wynne's wrath?  That's not the sweet old counselor I've known.

[Addai]

Archereon wrote...

Okay, I have to defend Wynne's intention not to go back to the mages tower, though both of you aren't going to have as much time left as you expected (you being a grey warden and all), Wynne is about to die, she might have only weeks left. People with terminal illnesses generally want to wrap up their affairs before the time comes.

Your reasoning doesn't really hold up, because
a) She leaves the Tower whenever she can, as Irving comments when she asks to join the GW.  For instance, Ostagar happened prior to her near-death experience.  This isn't a slam on her, it's a good thing that she wants to get out and see some action, the question is why she is so gung-ho to get the Warden mage, Aneirin etc. back into the Tower when she herself takes every opportunity to leave it.  Recruiting for the Circle is all well and good, but she's just not very adept at it. 

In some circumstances, she does return to the Tower after the Blight.

c) In other circumstances, she's traveling to Tevinter with Shale, not "wrapping up her affairs."

[Herr Uhl]

Helios969 wrote...

Well, I feel like I've walked into the middle of a movie.  What is the context?  What did the character do to invoke Wynne's wrath?  That's not the sweet old counselor I've known.

Destroyed the ashes.

[Addai]

EccentricSage wrote...

The only flaw I notice in the writing for Wynn is unsatisfactory dialogue options at some realy key moments that realy screwed up my RP. 

QFT.  There are few characters in the game where I felt the dialogue options we got were so inadequate.

[EccentricSage]

Addai67 wrote...

EccentricSage wrote...

The only flaw I notice in the writing for Wynn is unsatisfactory dialogue options at some realy key moments that realy screwed up my RP. 

QFT.  There are few characters in the game where I felt the dialogue options we got were so inadequate.

It's the same issue that makes me so frustrated with Leliana.  Both those characters, once you get close to them (as friends), you practicaly aren't allowed to disagree or show anger towards them.  It's so frustrating.

[EccentricSage]

imported_beer wrote...

EccentricSage wrote...

This brings an interesting thought to mind... She describes the spirit that poseses her and lends her power as a 'faith spirit'... And she admits that when she was young she was rebelious, didn't accept her lot in life, and thought the Chantry were fools...  Then, one day that changed when she felt this sence of peace and purpose...    Sounds mighty suspicious, doesn't it.  We know from the fade dream that she is NOT as aware and apt in the fade as she pretends to be.  Perhaps this made her an easy vessel for a faith spirit wanting to manipulate someone for the sake of the Chantry and religious folks that feed faith spirits with warship, theoreticaly?  Maybe it's not much better than a demon.  (Funny, this reminds me of something from the occult IRL... Angels and Fallen both being dangerous manipulators of humanity.  Just one theory.  lol)

Matter of interpretation.

How about Wynne who was all upset met another person- a Chantry priestess who found joy in service to others. And Wynn accepting that this was her lot in life and if she could do some good by it, so be it.

I don't understand the chantry mouthpiece comments.

1. When you speak to Wynne about the chantry's version of the fade, she speaks about it like a true agnostic. She says it is possible allegory.
2. Wynne does not even say she believes in the Maker when Leliana asks her that.
3. Her only defense of the chantry is that being a mage is dangerous and the chantry is something needed to ensure they do not abuse their powers. This may not be a "correct" view point but it is not a "faith based" view point about makers and prophets. It is about the dangers of magic.
4. Wynne herself believes the fade contains beneficial spirits. She speaks about how not all spirits are dangerous. So I don't see how her little spirit contradicts it. All she advocates is the potential corruptibility of mages with self centered intent and (IMO wrongly) the chantry being the only way to deal with. There is no way o bringing an abomination back as per her knowledge.


I can understand people disliking Wynne. Not all characters can be liked. But to use your own personal interpretations as fact bellies the point. Depending on your viewpoint, what she says can be interpreted in may different ways. You think she is a chantry mouthpiece. I think she is an agnostic who thinks it is a neccessary evil even though they have done wrong by her Someone else thinks something else. Whatever. Your own experience and viewpoint on the lore WILL color these things.

When did I claim my view is fact?  This is a thread asking why people dislike her, and thus we share our individual enterpretations.  I find it curious that she is possessed by a fade spirit she described as a faith spirit.  You realise what that mean, faith, right?

The conflict between her agnostic viewpoints as a mage and some of her actions in the game is part of what makes me curious about the nature of her relationship with this spirit.  If she's such an agnostic, then why does she care if you violate the 'sacred ashes'?  Even some of the other somewhat religious characters see little problem with it.  Zev is religious, he doesn't care.  Alistair isn't religious, yet seems to filter many of his views through the chantry's teachings, but he didn't care.  So I find Wynn rather suspicious.  How the heck is a religious icon the 'one hope' of the people when she's not even religious?

It's simply an interesting nuance of the storyline and character that we may never see elaborated upon.  Would be great fanfic fodder, for sure.

[Helios969]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Helios969 wrote...

Well, I feel like I've walked into the middle of a movie.  What is the context?  What did the character do to invoke Wynne's wrath?  That's not the sweet old counselor I've known.

Destroyed the ashes.

It's a pretty nasty thing to do, so I guess her anger is justified.  Ironically, (apparently) killing Brother Genetivi in order to maintain secrecy isn't a bad thing.  At least I received no speech suggesting she had a problem with the decision.  Maybe a writing oversight.

[MorningBird]

@Krylo:

Yes, I have completed it twice.  I think you completely misunderstood me.

The first time I finished the game, it was with a City Elf in a romance with Zevran.  It's hard to slay an Archdemon without first encountering Taliesan, so in this playthrough, obviously the romance was completed.

I have since played a Drawf Commoner, Human Noble, Elf Mage, and Human Mage...

Out of these playthroughts, the Elf Mage made it the farthest (The Deep Roads) before I rolled another City Elf (it's my favorite Origin, what can I say?)

With my second City Elf, I am once again in a romance with Zevran, and well past the Landsmeet, which means the Taliesan encounter has been triggered, allowing me to complete the romance a second time.

And this is pretty much what I meant when I said that I only see one perspective of Wynne.  My City Elf is the playthrough that got me most involved.  I can scarcely remember what I thought of who during the other playthroughs...  Thus, because I've never had a character hate her, I really don't understand why other's are so critical.

Like I said, no one is wrong for disliking her, but no one is wrong for liking her either.

And yes, 2 dollars. Could have used that to buy myself a cookie... >.>

[krylo]

MorningBird wrote...

@Krylo:

Yes, I have completed it twice.  I think you completely misunderstood me.

The first time I finished the game, it was with a City Elf in a romance with Zevran.  It's hard to slay an Archdemon without first encountering Taliesan, so in this playthrough, obviously the romance was completed.

I have since played a Drawf Commoner, Human Noble, Elf Mage, and Human Mage...

Out of these playthroughts, the Elf Mage made it the farthest (The Deep Roads) before I rolled another City Elf (it's my favorite Origin, what can I say?)

With my second City Elf, I am once again in a romance with Zevran, and well past the Landsmeet, which means the Taliesan encounter has been triggered, allowing me to complete the romance a second time.

And this is pretty much what I meant when I said that I only see one perspective of Wynne.  My City Elf is the playthrough that got me most involved.  I can scarcely remember what I thought of who during the other playthroughs...  Thus, because I've never had a character hate her, I really don't understand why other's are so critical.

Like I said, no one is wrong for disliking her, but no one is wrong for liking her either.

And yes, 2 dollars. Could have used that to buy myself a cookie... >.>

Alright, well, then it's playing the same character twice thing.

MY CONFUSION IS SATISFIED.

Thanks for the explanation.  I was a little worried you thought that sex was the culmination of the relationship or something.

[Nonvita]

krylo wrote...

Thanks for the explanation.  I was a little worried you thought that sex was the culmination of the relationship or something.

It's not?!

[Sabriana]

Helios, it's only a nasty thing to do for Andrastian followers. Dwarfs could care less. Heck, as far as they know the cultists might be right. Sten calls it a 'dust-bin'. It means nothing to him. The dalish don't believe in the maker. They might respect Andraste as an ally, but then again, leaving the ashes like they are will only strengthen the chantry, the source of their displacement and betrayal.

[Sarah1281]

I felt realy guilty afterward about all the cultists we... masacred...  Dristen could understand why they faught.  We did what we had to do... but once we got to the Urn, and betrayed the cultists, I felt realy bad... well... as did Dristen.  They opted not to go back and finish off the rest.  Let them warship their Dragons.  as long as they never help the Tevinter Emperium, nor begin to emulate their ways, I see no reason to interfere. 

Except that they were hardly harmless, brutally killed Arl Eamon's knights, tortured Brother Genitivi, appeared to regularly engage in human sacrifice, not to menton the way the entire freaking town turns on you and tries to kill you for entering an unlocked building. Although the leader of their Chantry did kind of have a point about why should they be welcoming when you broke into their homes and killed their people. No one else in the game really seemed to notice...

And while Wynne being so morally outraged by the defiling I could understand and am glad she doesn't try to doom the world over her own belief system if you don't bring her and she just leaves at camp, I'm not sure exactly the reasons behind the strength of her outrage. She doesn't have a problem with the fact it's supposedly holy like Leliana does but she thinks you are destroying people's hope. No one except Genitivi himself, possibly the Arl since he funded the research, and an increasingly desperate Isolde even believe it is possible to find the ashes and many people don't feel they even still exist. Unless the PC intends to announce to the world that the ashes have been defiled, I don't see how everyone would know and lose hope. Not to mention that no one would be able to get near the ashes unless the ashes were defiled on top of killing the dragon and then the remaining cultists and I can't imagine that that would happen all that often. If you side with the cultists,  you would be far less incline to kill them later for lolz and thus no Chantry expeditions will ever be made and no one is ever going to find out.

[Nonvita]

True about the ashes. And what's more, the ashes can be exploited, as evidenced by at least one of the outcomes. Is it truly bad to destroy the ashes if it affects no one but some cultists, whereas leaving them untouched could lead to negative outcomes if they're found? No one knows for sure what the ashes are, whether they are truly good or not, and what power they really hold. To characters with no emotional investment in the Chantry, destroying them may seem like the greater good.

[ejoslin]

Helios969 wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Helios969 wrote...

Well, I feel like I've walked into the middle of a movie.  What is the context?  What did the character do to invoke Wynne's wrath?  That's not the sweet old counselor I've known.

Destroyed the ashes.

It's a pretty nasty thing to do, so I guess her anger is justified.  Ironically, (apparently) killing Brother Genetivi in order to maintain secrecy isn't a bad thing.  At least I received no speech suggesting she had a problem with the decision.  Maybe a writing oversight.

But didn't she say that the Grey Wardens were the one hope of Ferelden?  Yet she tries to kill them!  Actually, I did that once with both Wynne and Leliana in my party (it was deliberate *sigh*) and that was an interesting fight.  Alistair and my warden against the guardian, Leliana, and Wynne.

It actually is not that nasty a thing to do -- it's a relic very few actually know about, no one would find out about it anyway, and even Alistair keeps a healthy perspective on it.  What is nasty is trying to kill the last two grey wardens in ferelden.  Actually, put a lot of her speeches in that context (which I actually had to do after the first time I had the camp speech), that she WOULD try to kill the remaining two grey wardens in Ferelden despite all she said about the Wardens of the past and their responsibilities and how they're the last remaining hope etc etc etc.

Edit: I see I should finish reading all the responses before adding my own!

Modifié par ejoslin, 05 mars 2010 - 09:26 .