329 réponses à ce sujet

[MorningBird]

Sabriana wrote...

True enough, it does depend on the player. However, I have to counter the 'Zevran' bit. When the two meet, he tries to be kind and supportive. There is at least one conversation between Zevran and Wynne that should give her some pause, and think a little about her attitude, but it doesn't.

Honestly, I think Zevran did make a good first impression on Wynne.  Likewise, I think Wynne made a good first impression on Zevran.  It was their following impressions that soured things.

Wynne wanted to discuss something Zevran thought she had no business poking at.  Zevran responded by making her hilariously uncomfortable.  Repeatedly. xD  Even if it was indended to be more or less harmless, I know firsthand that such behavior can stir dislike.

Sabriana wrote...
Zevran isn't the only one who uses sexual innuendo, and he is far less crude about it.

True enough, though honestly, I don't think any of the characters have been crude so much as flirtatious.  It's really a case of double standards.  An old woman hitting on a handsome knight?  Haha, that's good fun.  A handsome elf assassin flirting with an old woman?  How crude.

Sabriana wrote...
The way she starts in on him, I can only see his reactions as deflections and wishing to shut her up, and he succeeds. Wynne has plenty of food for thought about Zevran, and she should think about her own sexual innuendo 'jokes' before passing judgment.

You are completely right about the deflection, but you're also the observer in this conversation.  Your PC is given the opportunity to pick up on that.  I question whether Wynne did, being in the heat of things.  Were I in the middle of that conversation, I would likely interpret it as Zevran being immature and a flirt as well (though I'd give such behavior a thumbs up as opposed to down, unlike Wynne! )

And were I an old woman flirting with a young man, I would very well know that I was joking.  It's always a little more unclear when the shoe is on the other foot.

Sabriana wrote...
I've only watched her behavior at the Guardian with a City Elf, and it was not pretty. I've not played one myself, and meta-gaming or not, she will definitely *not* accompany my PC CE when she goes to the Guardian.

I've seen this as well.  Personally, my City Elf always feels regret about what happened to Shianni.  In his eyes, she was like his little sister, the one he was supposed to watch out for, and he failed as her protector.

That he came to her rescue too late was reason to feel guilt.  Wynne's response to this coincides well with his thoughts.

I've also heard her response to the, "Vaughan is the criminal." selection, and I still think it coinsides nicely with the choice selection.  In one, she's telling you that nothing you could have done would have changed events.  In the other, she's reminding you that you still played a part in said events, and not to forget it.

How you choose to interpret that is once again heavily perspective related, and there is no wrong or right way to take it.

Sabriana wrote...
And I truly wish my PC could interfere in her talk with Aneirin, and tell him not to listen to her, and not to go back to the tower under any circumstances. Just to make sure he stays put. He is a very nice NPC, and I wouldn't want the templars to get another stab at him. He's labeled a blood-mage, and I don't think the templars would go through any kind of guilty/innocent process (I don't think they ever do that at any rate), especially after what just happened at the tower.

I rather like that Aneirin is given the chance to choose what he wants, having seen both sides of the coin.  He's been a tower mage and an Apostate.  He knows best where he wants to be.  Wynne can make the suggestion, but the decision to return is entirely Aneirin's.

Sabriana wrote...
However, it is most certainly up to each and every player to see her as s/he wants to. Any character that calls forth such a wide arc of emotions is a well written one, flaws and all.

True enough.  I really haven't encountered a bad bit of writing thus far.  There are certainly characters I like more than others, but that's really no different from when I read a book or see a movie.

EDIT:

And no worries, Krylo! I have trouble making sense most days, especially when writing at 2 am (Thursday unfortunately my Friday... >_>)

Modifié par MorningBird, 05 mars 2010 - 09:34 .

[Helios969]

ejoslin wrote...

Helios969 wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Helios969 wrote...

Well, I feel like I've walked into the middle of a movie.  What is the context?  What did the character do to invoke Wynne's wrath?  That's not the sweet old counselor I've known.

Destroyed the ashes.

It's a pretty nasty thing to do, so I guess her anger is justified.  Ironically, (apparently) killing Brother Genetivi in order to maintain secrecy isn't a bad thing.  At least I received no speech suggesting she had a problem with the decision.  Maybe a writing oversight.

But didn't she say that the Grey Wardens were the one hope of Ferelden?  Yet she tries to kill them!  Actually, I did that once with both Wynne and Leliana in my party (it was deliberate *sigh*) and that was an interesting fight.  Alistair and my warden against the guardian, Leliana, and Wynne.

It actually is not that nasty a thing to do -- it's a relic very few actually know about, no one would find out about it anyway, and even Alistair keeps a healthy perspective on it.  What is nasty is trying to kill the last two grey wardens in ferelden.  Actually, put a lot of her speeches in that context (which I actually had to do after the first time I had the camp speech), that she WOULD try to kill the remaining two grey wardens in Ferelden despite all she said about the Wardens of the past and their responsibilities and how they're the last remaining hope etc etc etc.

Edit: I see I should finish reading all the responses before adding my own!

It's a pretty valid point as I hadn't really thought of it in terms of being the last of the Grey Wardens.  Still it is unnecessarily cruel to desecrate something some people value beyond its utilitarian worth.  Imagine if I walked into a Catholic Church and urinated on a statue of Christ.  I did no real damage, yet the outcry would be extreme to put it mildly, (and you know some zealot would pull out the sniper rifle with the 30x scope and no more Helios.)  Now in the game you are talking about destroying an actual holy relic with healing powers.  I'm an agnostic with little use for religion or religious people.  Still there are somethings you don't do.

[ejoslin]

MorningBird wrote...

Sabriana wrote...

True enough, it does depend on the player. However, I have to counter the 'Zevran' bit. When the two meet, he tries to be kind and supportive. There is at least one conversation between Zevran and Wynne that should give her some pause, and think a little about her attitude, but it doesn't.

Honestly, I think Zevran did make a good first impression on Wynne.  Likewise, I think Wynne made a good first impression on Zevran.  It was their following impressions that soured things.

Wynne wanted to discuss something Zevran thought she had no business poking at.  Zevran responded by making her hilariously uncomfortable.  Repeatedly. xD  Even if it was indended to be more or less harmless, I know firsthand that such behavior can stir dislike.

Sabriana wrote...
Zevran isn't the only one who uses sexual innuendo, and he is far less crude about it.

True enough, though honestly, I don't think any of the characters have been crude so much as flirtatious.  It's really a case of double standards.  An old woman hitting on a handsome knight?  Haha, that's good fun.  A handsome elf assassin flirting with an old woman?  How crude.

Sabriana wrote...
The way she starts in on him, I can only see his reactions as deflections and wishing to shut her up, and he succeeds. Wynne has plenty of food for thought about Zevran, and she should think about her own sexual innuendo 'jokes' before passing judgment.

You are completely right about the deflection, but you're also the observer in this conversation.  Your PC is given the opportunity to pick up on that.  I question whether Wynne did, being in the heat of things.  Were I in the middle of that conversation, I would likely interpret it as Zevran being immature and a flirt as well (though I'd give such behavior a thumbs up as opposed to down, unlike Wynne! )

And were I an old woman flirting with a young man, I would very well know that I was joking.  It's always a little more unclear when the shoe is on the other foot.

Wynne does not mind the crude remarks Oghren makes.  At all.  I also think Wynne doesn't try to redeem Oghren, though she very much wants to be the one who redeems the Zevran (probably because if you talk to him for 3 minutes, you see that there IS a decent person there).

I don't think they actually dislike each other, and i think Zevran had a lot of fun at Wynne's expense, which may be what bothered her most.

[Fishy]

Sabriana wrote...

This is not true. He is very kind to her in the tower. She tries to be her 'savior' self with him and gets nowhere. As far as seducing a GW, so do Leliana, Morrigan, and Alistair. But they are not dealt as harshly with as Zevran. By that time, Zevran is at +71 adore. This is no longer a 'fling', but serious. As you can hear later in her apology (way later), she admits that she was very wrong.
Before offering an opinion on the Zervan romance, try it first. Or try the friendship version.
She has no business budding into the PC's relationships. It's especially vile with Zevran. No matter that all the other romance options 'seduce' the Warden as well.

She has a point though.You're trying to save the world.Not tap everything that move inside the camp.

[MorningBird]

ejoslin wrote...
I snipped a lot of good stuff (I'm not dismissing it) but I wanted to address this.  Zevran was kind to Wynne, and respectful.  She overstepped her bounds with him, started talking about things that were none of her business with him, and he countered in a humorous way, making her uncomfortable.  But he still, even in her banters, comes across as teasing and playful, whereas she comes off as judgmental.  He came to enjoy their banters I think ("You have not asked me about my conscious for quite some time, my darling Wynne" hahahahaha).

He has a fun and funny personality in many of the banters, and he never used teasing to try to hurt anyone. I may be a minority in this among Zevran fans but I don't think he was bothered by Wynne's prying.  I don't think she was trying to hurt anyone either; but she does not understand boundaries, obviously, and wants to be everyone's counselor, whether she's built a relationship with them or not.

Edit: And what many Wynne-haters say is we'd like her a lot more if we had more dialog options,ones that establish our warden as the leader without sounding petulant.

I agree completely with this.

But I do like that Wynne is a bit of a closed off character... it adds to her tragedy, in a way.

Comments made by her and the First Enchanter have led me to believe that she wasn't always (for lack of better words) 'old'.  She seemed to be quite spritely and mischievous in her youth, more willing to bend the rules and eager for adventure (Irving says something to the effects of, "You were never one to stay in the Tower when there was adventure to be had elsewhere.") but she was also more pigheaded (her handling of Aneirin).

I think the life she lived in the tower--and her struggles--ruined that side of her, especially in regards to the loss of her child.  I wonder if she even knows who the father was.

But mentioning this, it sort of makes her words to the City Elf at the Gauntlet make more sense.

Wynne was in a weakened state, and as a result, she could not fight for her child as he was being taken away.  I think she largely blames herself--her youth and 'recklessness'--for this more than she blames the Chantry (who I will always consider the real wrong doers in this circumstance).  Even though no mother should be torn from her child, Wynne likely acknowledges that she played a part in the events that transpired:

"If I had not been so loose, I would not have gotten pregnant, if I had not gotten pregnant, I wouldn't have grown attached to the baby, if I hadn't grown attached to the baby, I wouldn't care if they were taken away, and I wouldnt feel like this..."

In Wynne's mind, I don't think anyone comes out of an experience like that free of guilt.

It's likely that she believes the same of the City Elf.  Were they directly to blame?  No, but their actions had an effect.

Would she be right?  I have no idea, it's player perspective again, but it's fun to think about, in any case. XD

[Sarah1281]

Wynne does not mind the crude remarks Oghren makes. At all. I also think Wynne doesn't try to redeem Oghren, though she very much wants to be the one who redeems the Zevran (probably because if you talk to him for 3 minutes, you see that there IS a decent person there).

I really didn't like Wynne around Oghren much. It is also easy to see that Oghren is more than he appears, especially if you take them both to the Gauntlet and he goes into a mini-rant about how he's aware how much his life sucks and the part he feels he played in everything falling apart, but Wynne never seems to notice. Even when you first meet Oghren, he's just trying to save his wife. He doesn't realize that she's crazy and isn't lookng for her for political gain like the PC is. Even though he knows it won't do him any good and only makes his standing worse with the other dwarves, he still religiously goes to the diamond quarter to plead for someone to go look for her. Does Wynne take this into account? Of course not. I mean, yes they could bond over alcohol and granted she isn't the only one put off by many of his behaviors, but her conversation with Leliana about him really bothered me.

Leliana: It must be a wonderful thing, to be able to weave spells.
Wynne: Wonderful? To you, perhaps. Most do not feel the same way
Leliana: Oh, what do they know? They are just jealous. The Maker gives you magic; you must use it.
Leliana: You do it so effortlessly. It's like breathing for you. I wish I had such talent.
Wynne: Oh, but you do. You have your music, your dancing. You are more graceful than anyone I've ever met.
Wynne: I think that perhaps the Maker gives us all magic... but of different sorts.
Leliana: Even Oghren?
Wynne: Oghren is a dwarf. He doesn't really come from the Maker.
Leliana: Oh, yes. That explains it.

It seems to be a common though not universal Chantry prejudice.The sister in Denerim who keeps subsituting food for the right words in the Chant of Light calls you ignorant and godless if you ask any questions about the Chant as a dwarf and says there is no reason for dwarves to be mentioned at all in the Chant. I know they don't go into the Fade, but then you meet other more tolerant Chantry spokespeople - such as Mother Hannah from Redcliffe - who insist that everyone was made by the Maker.

Then again, Leliana and Wynne do seem to be pretty racist against non-humans. Leliana has her stupid line about how she could get a job in Orzammar helping the King reach things off high shelves and if you're an elf she talks about how life is great for elves in Orlais because they are prettied up like show ponies but at least you can call her on that and she later admits she was insensitive. Wynne doesn't believe dwarves come from the Maker and has, on occasion, just referred to Oghren as Dwarf and her apparent prejudice against elves has already been touched upon. Hopefully she was joking in her conversation with Leliana, but racist remarks made in jest are still racist and if playing as a Dwarf yourself it is highly offensive. One thing that Leliana does having going for her is that, unlike Wynne, if you have a conversation with her about your race and she comes off as racist, she will reconsider her viewpoit and concede that you are right.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 05 mars 2010 - 10:12 .

[MorningBird]

ejoslin wrote...
Wynne does not mind the crude remarks Oghren makes.  At all.  I also think Wynne doesn't try to redeem Oghren, though she very much wants to be the one who redeems the Zevran (probably because if you talk to him for 3 minutes, you see that there IS a decent person there).

As I mentioned somewhere else, this just seems to be a double standard of the world.  Oghren is... a dwarf.  I don't think there is a whole lot you can do (if you're not the PC...) to change a dwarf's way of being.

Elves, however (City Elves) are closer to humans.  They live in their cities under the country's human laws.  You can reach a level of empathy with an elf that you can't with a dwarf (who are very set in their ways).

I think that's partly why she tries to reach out to one and not the other.

Plus, you're right, Zevran is decent once you 'find' him.  Wynne probably saw a glimmer of it in the tower.  Sadly, even a glimmer can be snuffed out with some of the things that come out of Zevran's mouth.

ejoslin wrote...
I don't think they actually dislike each other, and i think Zevran had
a lot of fun at Wynne's expense, which may be what bothered her
most.

I think there may be miscommunication somewhere, because I completely agree with you.   All conversations can turn 'sour'.  That doesn't mean the relationship ends on a bad note, or even end at all, but it certainly explains Wynne's general assumption that Zevran is just a flirt.

Actually, Wynne's advice regarding the Zevran romance is somewhat similar to the advice that my grandmother gave my mom when she started dating my dad. xD  I'm of mixed race, my mom is Chinese, my dad is Welsh.  When they got together, my grandmother was persistently trying to convince my mother that my dad only had one thing on his mind.

Three kids and a stable marriage later, she was forced to eat her words.  Wynne apologizes considerably fast, by comparison.

[Addai]

Helios969 wrote...

It's a pretty nasty thing to do, so I guess her anger is justified. 

Why is it a nasty thing to do?  An agnostic character would, like Sten, see it as an ashtray.  A highly religious character might even see it as a test of faith... a little dragon's blood can't actually deter Andraste's power, can it?  The real question is:  Why does Wynne care so much about it?

[Helios969]

Addai67 wrote...

Helios969 wrote...

It's a pretty nasty thing to do, so I guess her anger is justified. 

Why is it a nasty thing to do?  An agnostic character would, like Sten, see it as an ashtray.  A highly religious character might even see it as a test of faith... a little dragon's blood can't actually deter Andraste's power, can it?  The real question is:  Why does Wynne care so much about it?

Read my most recent post above.  I use a "real" world example to illustrate my point.

[Claude_Speed]

I liked wynne



I don't get why people like Zevran, in my current playthrough I killed him right away - and in my first I ordered him to leave after the confrontation with the crows in denerim.

[Addai]

Helios969 wrote...

Read my most recent post above.  I use a "real" world example to illustrate my point.

And if a Catholic were to attack you for urinating on a holy statue, that would say more about the Catholic than about you.

[Addai]

Claude_Speed wrote...
I don't get why people like Zevran, in my current playthrough I killed him right away - and in my first I ordered him to leave after the confrontation with the crows in denerim.

There is a thread of some 200 pages near the top of this forum which should offer some insight on this question. 

[Helios969]

Addai67 wrote...

Helios969 wrote...

Read my most recent post above.  I use a "real" world example to illustrate my point.

And if a Catholic were to attack you for urinating on a holy statue, that would say more about the Catholic than about you.

Perhaps, but I'd consider anyone to do so despicable.  Maybe a religious theme doesn't get my point across.  What if it were your nation's flag, or your daughter's / little sister's favorite doll?  Pick any example of me urinating an item that has no real value that would ****** you off.  It says everything about me, and little about the person it offends.  We're talking about human nature, which is anything but rational more often than not.

[Sabriana]

I can see your point, Helios. However, this is not a real world. There are races abound who think the maker and Andraste are a crock. Or that the maker is not a true god. Although I'm not a catholic, not by a long shot, I would never do a thing like that because I know that Catholics revere that symbol and it means much to them.

A dwarf wouldn't know diddly about the 'maker' and 'Andraste'. Sten could care less about that particular religion and might even revile it. A dalish has no cause to value the chantry, quite the contrary. A mage might resent the chantry and the whole Andraste worship as the cause of her life-long imprisonment. This is a holy relic only to those who believe in it. To others it's a waste bin. Nothing more. Wynne is called an agnositc. Why does she attempt to destroy the two GWs, the only hope for Ferelden at this point. In doing so she would rather doom the whole of the country than just accept the leader's actions. She can rant and rave later. After the Blight. By trying to kill the only hope for her country she is willing to sacrifice it - all of it. Sacrifice it for a believe that she herself claims is not hers. Everything will die, including the mages. Including herself if she doesn't make it to Orlais, Antiva, or anywhere else in time.

[MorningBird]

Helios969 wrote...
Perhaps, but I'd consider anyone to do so despicable.  Maybe a religious theme doesn't get my point across.  What if it were your nation's flag, or your daughter's / little sister's favorite doll?  Pick any example of me urinating an item that has no real value that would ****** you off.  It says everything about me, and little about the person it offends.  We're talking about human nature, which is anything but rational more often than not.

I agree with you, even with the religious theme.  I'm fairly agnostic, but I still get peeved when I hear about people vandalizing church property.  Not to the point of killing someone, mind you, but these aren't medieval fantasy times we're living in! xD

For a non-religious example, I would pull forward the recent vancouver Olympics.  I wasn't really interested in it (despite being Canadian).  That does not, however, mean that I condone the actions of the destructive protestors who went around breaking shop windows and spray-painting cars.  In fact, their behavior downright appalled me.

[Cuddlezarro]

I dont see a Dalish defiling Andrastes ashes because while they do not worship the maker they do respect the woman for freeing them

but dwarves? pffft why should they care? hell if you talk to brother burkel he talks about how the dwarves dont even know what the maker is!

its funny how if you do a blood magic ritual infront of her that kills an entire group of elves to give you more power all you get is a disapproval message yet you pour some dragons blood on a dead persons ashes (that no one but a select few know exists) which hurts no one she tries to kill you

Modifié par Cuddlezarro, 05 mars 2010 - 10:51 .

[Sarah1281]

but dwarves? pffft why should they care? hell if you talk to brother burksl he talks about how the dwarves dont even know what the maker is! 

If that's true then you really have to wonder where he heard bout it without losing his caste by going topside. I can't imagine the Chantry would send someone to spread the word given their rather ambivalent attitude towards dwarves and everyone in Orzammar acts as if having outsiders was a rarity.

Perhaps, but I'd consider anyone to do so despicable. Maybe a religious theme doesn't get my point across. What if it were your nation's flag, or your daughter's / little sister's favorite doll? Pick any example of me urinating an item that has no real value that would ****** you off. It says everything about me, and little about the person it offends. We're talking about human nature, which is anything but rational more often than not.

 
Yes, those are not very nice things to do and it's understandable that doing that would ****** people off and maybe even get them to end their assocition with you but...trying to kill you? Really? Especially when the entire country if not world would be doomed if you died?

Wynne leaving, I get. Her parting shot of 'I hope the Darkspawn take you' is incredibly inappropriate and it would doom everyone if it came true but she's not impreding the Warden's quest in any way. They got along just fine without her and will no doubt contine to do so. Say Wynne had managed to kill the Warden. Where would that have left everyone?

Alistair might have died, too, had he bee with the Warden and thus been forced to try and protect them. Or let's look at the Landsmeet. Without the Warden gathering evidence against Loghain and with Anora supporting him, no way Loghain would have lost and as the Warden is the only one who seems to think a marriage between Anora and Alistair could be pulled off, Alistair would die. Anora only ever agrees to spare him if th Warden convinces her to so no Warden pretty much guarentees dead Alistair. That leaves Riordan as the only Grey Warden left in Ferelden and there's no guarentee he would have escaped Howe's dungeon if not for the Warden arriving to distract the guard. Even had he, however, he failed to kill the Archdemon so the Blight would have continued and the other nations had all already written off Ferelden because they could't get their act together.

Would saving Andraste's ashes really be worth losing all of Ferelden?

Modifié par Sarah1281, 05 mars 2010 - 10:53 .

[Helios969]

Sabriana wrote...

I can see your point, Helios. However, this is not a real world. There are races abound who think the maker and Andraste are a crock. Or that the maker is not a true god. Although I'm not a catholic, not by a long shot, I would never do a thing like that because I know that Catholics revere that symbol and it means much to them.
A dwarf wouldn't know diddly about the 'maker' and 'Andraste'. Sten could care less about that particular religion and might even revile it. A dalish has no cause to value the chantry, quite the contrary. A mage might resent the chantry and the whole Andraste worship as the cause of her life-long imprisonment. This is a holy relic only to those who believe in it. To others it's a waste bin. Nothing more. Wynne is called an agnositc. Why does she attempt to destroy the two GWs, the only hope for Ferelden at this point. In doing so she would rather doom the whole of the country than just accept the leader's actions. She can rant and rave later. After the Blight. By trying to kill the only hope for her country she is willing to sacrifice it - all of it. Sacrifice it for a believe that she herself claims is not hers. Everything will die, including the mages. Including herself if she doesn't make it to Orlais, Antiva, or anywhere else in time.

Well, all these characters are written by people who do live in the real world.  And as a writer myself I can tell you we all draw very heavily on our real world experiences.

Is Wynne an Agnostic?  I've never heard that or made the connection.  She certainly doesn't act like one with her "Holier than thou" attitude.

All the examples you used above with the various races are good, but those races would understand some basic fundamentals in dealing with other races - that there are some things you don't do.  I mean as a human noble, would it be okay for be to go into the Dwarven city and demolish statues of Paragons?  I might not know much about Dwarven society or anything about the value of a Paragon to it, but I'd have enough sense not to do something so insulting.  I've got to believe (in our hypothetical fantasy world) the Dwarves and Elves would in turn have the same kind of sense.  Just a thought.

[Helios969]

MorningBird wrote...

Helios969 wrote...
Perhaps, but I'd consider anyone to do so despicable.  Maybe a religious theme doesn't get my point across.  What if it were your nation's flag, or your daughter's / little sister's favorite doll?  Pick any example of me urinating an item that has no real value that would ****** you off.  It says everything about me, and little about the person it offends.  We're talking about human nature, which is anything but rational more often than not.

I agree with you, even with the religious theme.  I'm fairly agnostic, but I still get peeved when I hear about people vandalizing church property.  Not to the point of killing someone, mind you, but these aren't medieval fantasy times we're living in! xD

For a non-religious example, I would pull forward the recent vancouver Olympics.  I wasn't really interested in it (despite being Canadian).  That does not, however, mean that I condone the actions of the destructive protestors who went around breaking shop windows and spray-painting cars.  In fact, their behavior downright appalled me.

Sorry, I didn't hear about that, (the only sport I watch or care about is American football.)  Why were they do all that nonsense?  Win? Lose? Cheated?

[Addai]

Helios969 wrote...
Perhaps, but I'd consider anyone to do so despicable.  Maybe a religious theme doesn't get my point across.  What if it were your nation's flag, or your daughter's / little sister's favorite doll?  Pick any example of me urinating an item that has no real value that would ****** you off.  It says everything about me, and little about the person it offends.  We're talking about human nature, which is anything but rational more often than not.

I'm not saying it's a nice thing to do, and I am religious enough to know how much it hurts to see holy objects ridiculed- as they are regularly in popular culture- let alone destroyed.

We certainly know what Wynne thinks of the Grey Wardens, ad nauseum.  If I were fighting with people whom I knew were the best or only hope of saving thousands of people's lives from a terrible infestation of darkspawn, then at most I would tell them off.  I would still continue to fight with them, though, because the job I signed up for is more important than my hurt feelings about a cherished religious object.

Modifié par Addai67, 05 mars 2010 - 11:01 .

[Sabriana]

The thing is that no one really knows the ashes are there. Going into Orzammar and smashing the statues is far different. Heck, if the PC doesn't slay the high dragon, the ashes disappear anyways. The ashes were a myth until the PC found them. Teagan says so, the knights say so, even Genitivi (sp?) is not altogether sure. The Chantry calls his research 'blasphemy'.

[Helios969]

Addai67 wrote...

Helios969 wrote...
Perhaps, but I'd consider anyone to do so despicable.  Maybe a religious theme doesn't get my point across.  What if it were your nation's flag, or your daughter's / little sister's favorite doll?  Pick any example of me urinating an item that has no real value that would ****** you off.  It says everything about me, and little about the person it offends.  We're talking about human nature, which is anything but rational more often than not.

I'm not saying it's a nice thing to do, and I am religious enough to know how much it hurts to see holy objects ridiculed- as they are regularly in popular culture- let alone destroyed.

We certainly know what Wynne thinks of the Grey Wardens, ad nauseum.  If I were fighting with people whom I knew were the best or only hope of saving thousands of people's lives from a terrible infestation of darkspawn, then at most I would tell them off.  I would still continue to fight with them, though, because the job I signed up for is more important than my hurt feelings about a cherished religious object.

**shrugs** People goe crazy when you mess with symbols they deem important.

Here's another thought, why the hell would a GW want to destroy the ashes.  In principle it could reverse/reset the long term effects of the taint, (that according to DG.)  I'm of the mind to keep the Ashes for the GW's, so they could avoid going to the Deep Roads once the taint had all but consumed them.  They could live long lives into old age like everyone else.  The hell with the Chantry.

[Sabriana]

Simple, Helios. The (non chantry, non andrastian) GW doesn't know for sure that the ashes are a curative. S/he will see it only after returning to Redcliffe. Aside from that, if the High Dragon is not killed, the ashes will disappear from the mountain top.

[mousestalker]

To play devil's advocate, she is essentially mirroring Sten. If you defile the ashes, then arguably all you are doing is abusing whatever powers you have as a Grey Warden for gratuitous destruction. There are no darkspawn in Haven. Going there, massacring a bunch of villagers, ignoring a dangerous dragon, allowing a human sacrificing dragon cult to survive and then desecrating the ashes of Andraste are not the actions of a hero. Nor are they the actions of someone who is interested in fighting the Blight.

She joined you to fight the Blight. If you go, massacre the cultists, kill the dragon and get the ashes, then while it has little to do with the Blight directly, it is at least heroic. Which fits in with her image of the Grey Wardens.

Also the reaver spec is unbelievably lame. Defiling the urn just to unlock really does deserve a scathing critique of your cost benefit analysis skills.

Modifié par mousestalker, 05 mars 2010 - 11:28 .

[Helios969]

Sabriana wrote...

Simple, Helios. The (non chantry, non andrastian) GW doesn't know for sure that the ashes are a curative. S/he will see it only after returning to Redcliffe. Aside from that, if the High Dragon is not killed, the ashes will disappear from the mountain top.

Oh, I smoked the dragon before even going into recover the Ashes.  Dragons are wimpy.