49 réponses à ce sujet

[Angel of Nessus]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Angel of Nessus wrote...

If they killed off their character, then that's their fault.  It's a new game with the Orlesian, so of course your decisions would play little part in that route.  Complaining will solve NOTHING at all; deal with it or don't play the game.  Maybe they'll  find a work around later on, but for now all that bringing this issue up does is bother people needlessly.  

It was said that the Orlesian was sent to the keep to replace your character's warden, the Ultimate Sacrifice was my personal favorite ending of all and now it's gone. It's not "my fault" for choosing it, and I know complaining won't fix anything, but if people sat down and were complete tools and accepted everything without complaining then there would never be any advancement.

I wanted it to be that my King Alistair, with his queen Anora, would talk about my Human Noble who sacrificed himself. My character would've been a backround plot of the entire game world as an Orlesian Gray Warden, he'd adventure through the world in a second-hand sight of the changes.

We'll deal with it, but we won't like it - and saying us to shut up won't help.

I understand that- but the complaining has gotten out of hand.  That's my only qualm.

[Dave of Canada]

Angel of Nessus wrote...

I understand that- but the complaining has gotten out of hand.  That's my only qualm.

But this thread itself is complaining about the complaining. :-/

[Rylor Tormtor]

Angel of Nessus wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Angel of Nessus wrote...

If they killed off their character, then that's their fault.  It's a new game with the Orlesian, so of course your decisions would play little part in that route.  Complaining will solve NOTHING at all; deal with it or don't play the game.  Maybe they'll  find a work around later on, but for now all that bringing this issue up does is bother people needlessly.  

It was said that the Orlesian was sent to the keep to replace your character's warden, the Ultimate Sacrifice was my personal favorite ending of all and now it's gone. It's not "my fault" for choosing it, and I know complaining won't fix anything, but if people sat down and were complete tools and accepted everything without complaining then there would never be any advancement.

I wanted it to be that my King Alistair, with his queen Anora, would talk about my Human Noble who sacrificed himself. My character would've been a backround plot of the entire game world as an Orlesian Gray Warden, he'd adventure through the world in a second-hand sight of the changes.

We'll deal with it, but we won't like it - and saying us to shut up won't help.

I understand that- but the complaining has gotten out of hand.  That's my only qualm.

To quote you, deal with it.

[Angel of Nessus]

Rylor Tormtor wrote...

Angel of Nessus wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Angel of Nessus wrote...

If they killed off their character, then that's their fault.  It's a new game with the Orlesian, so of course your decisions would play little part in that route.  Complaining will solve NOTHING at all; deal with it or don't play the game.  Maybe they'll  find a work around later on, but for now all that bringing this issue up does is bother people needlessly.  

It was said that the Orlesian was sent to the keep to replace your character's warden, the Ultimate Sacrifice was my personal favorite ending of all and now it's gone. It's not "my fault" for choosing it, and I know complaining won't fix anything, but if people sat down and were complete tools and accepted everything without complaining then there would never be any advancement.

I wanted it to be that my King Alistair, with his queen Anora, would talk about my Human Noble who sacrificed himself. My character would've been a backround plot of the entire game world as an Orlesian Gray Warden, he'd adventure through the world in a second-hand sight of the changes.

We'll deal with it, but we won't like it - and saying us to shut up won't help.

I understand that- but the complaining has gotten out of hand.  That's my only qualm.

To quote you, deal with it.

If you're going to quote someone, use the quote in the proper context.  Unlike the lack of US support on a NEW GAME (keyword, NEW), which could be due to all sorts of unalterable factors on the dev's part, the endless complaining is entirely the fault of those who refuse to see past it.  So I have no reason to "deal", as you say I say.

[Angel of Nessus]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Angel of Nessus wrote...

I understand that- but the complaining has gotten out of hand.  That's my only qualm.

But this thread itself is complaining about the complaining. :-/

But, you said... and he said... for... but what if-
*head explodes*

[Erucolindo]

How do you know that when you play the Orlesian Warden that you won't hear all about your dead Warden, or that the persons you chose to rule won't be?



Nothing in the many vids has suggested what kinds of consequences will be evident in this game.



Since people seem to be getting angry about my post, which i didn't expect, I'll go ahead and point out that the very last line of my post was just some motivation. I should have deleted it, but like a ****** I put it in there to get people to want to respond and give there opinion.

[Dave of Canada]

Erucolindo wrote...

How do you know that when you play the Orlesian Warden that you won't hear all about your dead Warden, or that the persons you chose to rule won't be?

Nothing in the many vids has suggested what kinds of consequences will be evident in this game.

Since people seem to be getting angry about my post, which i didn't expect, I'll go ahead and point out that the very last line of my post was just some motivation. I should have deleted it, but like a ****** I put it in there to get people to want to respond and give there opinion.

The Orlesian Warden was said to be a default, say you didn't beat DA:O and still wanted to play Awakening - the Orlesian would be available. None of the choices you've done in the main game carry over, it'll most likely pick a canon.

[Elanareon]

It is BS because people want to continue their story, but in their story they are already dead. So make a new warden when you are dead? YEAH SURE! The option? Orlesian Warden! But it has a set story for it! (or so the people say) What about the endings, the choices you chose from your dead Warden?!?! OP doesn't understand this!



They should have made the story to continue because that was dragon age was all about, the story and your decision! The you decided you have to sacrifice yourself to save humanity. But you can't continue anymore because you are dead, hence the orlesian warden. But it has a set story so whatever you did in Origins is null and void. So how can you continue the story? You can't just casually say the reroll a warrior and don't let him die. WTF? Your decision is to die for humanity and you say to reroll and don't sacrifice yourself?



Ive stated this already twice now do i need to repeat?



TBH, i really don't care about ultimate sacrifice because i knew there was going to be an expansion so I'd like to continue may character. But i understand those who gripes about this.



They should've implemented to import your US save then make a The old char was the same as the orlesian warden, same stats, same skills, if they want to continue their character. Then adjust the story depending on the choices of the origin character.

[Erucolindo]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Erucolindo wrote...

How do you know that when you play the Orlesian Warden that you won't hear all about your dead Warden, or that the persons you chose to rule won't be?

Nothing in the many vids has suggested what kinds of consequences will be evident in this game.

Since people seem to be getting angry about my post, which i didn't expect, I'll go ahead and point out that the very last line of my post was just some motivation. I should have deleted it, but like a ****** I put it in there to get people to want to respond and give there opinion.

The Orlesian Warden was said to be a default, say you didn't beat DA:O and still wanted to play Awakening - the Orlesian would be available. None of the choices you've done in the main game carry over, it'll most likely pick a canon.

The sounds..realistic. Sacrafice means you give up to something, for something else..basically. So you let your warden stab, and in return for ending it you can't carry him over into a new game. So if you want to play the new game, you can either start another toon and avoid stab, or play the Orlesian if you don't want to go to the "trouble".

Realize, here I don't mean to be an arse about it, but at the same time it's unrealistici if someone wants to play the  Orlesian but somehow see everything they did matter. I mean how would your Orlesian find out about all the choices someone from another country made. Yes, you are a hero..in Fereldan. 

The most that i think you could hope for is Oggy speaking about you in party chat, or some other gossip, or maybe the King/Queen. That's what most people want, and hopefully they spent enough time to do that. It would take a while I would think to program all the possible choices, no idea hwo they managed it in ME2.

However, if they did just stick with stock stuff for the Orlesian, then the worst that happens is you don't play him and you start another toon specificially to have a story that carrys over..

[Onyx Jaguar]

relhart wrote...

Yeah I find it a pretty short sighted and selfish argument. They aren't forced to do it, they just want to take away your option to do it..even though it doesn't effect them either way. I usually make a point of not arguing with emotional disturbed people though, especially on the interwebs, I've avoided those other threads like the plague.

oh ffs that is not what we are saying

[Reaverwind]

Angel of Nessus wrote...

I understand that- but the complaining has gotten out of hand.  That's my only qualm.

I'd let the folks actually working for Bioware worry about that.

Modifié par Reaverwind, 05 mars 2010 - 02:57 .

[Erucolindo]

"It is BS because people want to continue their story, but in their story they are already dead. So make a new warden when you are dead? YEAH SURE! The option? Orlesian Warden! But it has a set story for it! (or so the people say) What about the endings, the choices you chose from your dead Warden?!?! OP doesn't understand this!"





I do understand, you want your cake and then you also want to eat said cake. You want your toon to die, but you want to still see his choices (or hers) have an effect on the world? Right? Well there are some choices that I think may be unreasonable to hear about when your Warden is dead. Like LI for instance. Especially if you are a stranger from another country.



When you die, only those that care about you will remember you and what you did. Now, if you did something big, more people will remember, but only the big thing, not all the other little choices.

[Onyx Jaguar]

Erucolindo wrote...

"It is BS because people want to continue their story, but in their story they are already dead. So make a new warden when you are dead? YEAH SURE! The option? Orlesian Warden! But it has a set story for it! (or so the people say) What about the endings, the choices you chose from your dead Warden?!?! OP doesn't understand this!"


I do understand, you want your cake and then you also want to eat said cake. You want your toon to die, but you want to still see his choices (or hers) have an effect on the world? Right? Well there are some choices that I think may be unreasonable to hear about when your Warden is dead. Like LI for instance. Especially if you are a stranger from another country.

When you die, only those that care about you will remember you and what you did. Now, if you did something big, more people will remember, but only the big thing, not all the other little choices.

Characters make cameos in DA:OA, some of these said characters could be killed off, providing an inconsistency with the US ending for some of us and could be a roadblock for future expansions.  It may not be a big deal for Awakenings but it could prove problematic down the line.  Also why give us the option to start an Orlesian Warden if this was not the intent?

[Erucolindo]

The Orlesian Warden, I think, is so people can start at that lvl instead of starting a fresh lvl one, playing him or her through Orgins, just to get him up to Awakenings just to experience the basic story of the game. That's my guess anyways.



I'm not sure how killing off a guest character is effected by US or how it would effect future expansions. Explain?

[Onyx Jaguar]

Erucolindo wrote...

The Orlesian Warden, I think, is so people can start at that lvl instead of starting a fresh lvl one, playing him or her through Orgins, just to get him up to Awakenings just to experience the basic story of the game. That's my guess anyways.

I'm not sure how killing off a guest character is effected by US or how it would effect future expansions. Explain?

Primarily it pertains to Loghain/Alistair/Wynne and Anora.  Also the other characters if they make an appearance.  These characters may have lived or died in someone's US playthrough.

This expansion has the possibility of overwriting DA:O in the story continium meaning that on future expansions you might import from Awakenings instead of DA:O, cutting out the US sacrifice now would gimp that storyline thread.

[Erucolindo]

I'm sorry, and I risk some flames saying this in a forum on the net (especially this thread) but i'm still not following. Learning disabilities are fun...ADD..sometimes people say things to me and I know it's supposed to be simple and I'm prolly an idiot for not seeing it, but bear with me.



Are you afraid that their deaths or lack of death won't be reflected in Awakening is you play as t he Orlesian? They should, I agree, it would be bad form is those kinds of choices or consquences aren't carried over. However, how would a Warden from another country whose mission is to deal with these new Dark Spawn come upon these facts, how would it effect him?

[Onyx Jaguar]

Yes, depending on who lives/who you put as ruler should be taken into effect since from the information brought out these characters do make an appearance in Awakenings.

Also depending on how the expansion plays out you also have to take into account genders and races. While I no doubt expect that they will constantly refer to the US character as "the Warden" if they even refer to the character at all, it would be a little shifty and inconsistent.

For instance some female characters may have romanced Alistair and did the US ending, while Romances have been toned down we do not know what dialogue there is in game related to them, this would completely be cut out if you do an Orlesian Warden.

This also is of concern to other potential expansions because they will more likely than not continue on with your choices, however it seems that Awakenings could potentially override your decisions in DA:O in order to make the transition easier. With regards to DA:A anyway. We also do not know what else gets imported to DA:OA, for instance you have a Dalish elf party member, could siding with the werewolves have an impact on dialogue? We don't know if it will, but it certainly won't if you do the Orlesian Warden because it has no framework set in place based on your decisions in DA:O and will most likely use a default decision system like ME 2 does if you do not import a character.

Modifié par Onyx Jaguar, 05 mars 2010 - 03:27 .

[Erucolindo]

When they decided to allow us to import our toons, and in fact i believe that this was meant to be a continuation of the DA:O story, then I'm sure they worked most of this stuff out.



There are certainly a lot of consequences, different ones, that they have to either carry over, or have a damn good reason that they don't come up. LI is a good example. Since there are going to be no LI in this game, past ones prolly won't come up this time around either.



We don't know though, should prolly hold off on getting angry until someone beats the thing using an Orlesian..

[Feraele]

Ahh looks like we have a whole new crop of people who don't take the time to read, could care less about the subject at hand...but offer their opinions anyways, because they don't get it.



Bravo......../rolleyes

[Feraele]

Erucolindo wrote...

When they decided to allow us to import our toons, and in fact i believe that this was meant to be a continuation of the DA:O story, then I'm sure they worked most of this stuff out.

There are certainly a lot of consequences, different ones, that they have to either carry over, or have a damn good reason that they don't come up. LI is a good example. Since there are going to be no LI in this game, past ones prolly won't come up this time around either.

We don't know though, should prolly hold off on getting angry until someone beats the thing using an Orlesian..

Being that this subject of conversation has been ongoing for the last 19 days, it would behoove some of you to actually READ what the issues are instead of assuming what they are.

And just because YOU don't care what happens to another person's play-through..or roleplay story, doesn't mean it doesn't matter to them.  

And "toons" belong in daffy duck cartoons..I believe ..not roleplaying games.    ( or was that Wow)  hehe

[RPGlover732]

Angel of Nessus wrote...

RPGlover732 wrote...

Why do people always talk before they think? "well if you dont like it dont do it" no duh, but basicly they ruined our sacrificed character. they ended that "time line" if you will. they dont GIVE us the option to contunie that "world" which is what we want to do.
They gave us two options:
1. import your character and ruin the story

2. dont and ruin the "world"

Now lets pretend bioware said lets make it so everyone characters died just to make it easier, wouldnt that make you mad?

Course it would, but that's not the case.  Problem here is there is no solution that will make everyone happy and can be implemented in the time we have left.  One side has to get it in the dumps, and they will always whine about how "the story/game is ruined whiiiiiiiiiiiiiiine", no matter what BioWare does.

Here's an idea for you- stop worrying about whether or not Alistair is king or not in your original story; don't cry about how they don't mention how you helped Dagna get to the Tower of Magi; stop obsessing over whether or not some of the chanter's board questgivers remember you or not.  Take it with a grain of salt, and enjoy the NEW story they worked on, instead of crying over what is literally the past.

I have met no one who likes what they did. they made every one who cares mad this way.

some people wanted their character to be revived WITH story still their, others wanted to have the "world import"

so yes no matter what they did people would be mad. but in this case, both sides are mad and no one is like "yay story is ruined!"

[Swifty]

I'm going to throw this soup into the mix and see if it makes sense to anyone.

I think the reason folks are so worked up about the US warden is psychologically simple.

I played one character that way so I get the upset, I really do. I found it harder to sacrifice Loghain than I did to jump on the fire, myself.

The people who USed their characters had an emotional investment in that sacrifice. They thought about the character options, watched the funeral--and I think, it's the feeling that they wanted that sacrifice to *mean* something--not just be palmed off as "nothing" in an expansion. And an Orlesian of all things? [gotta tell you, that IS beyond annoying--in fact it's quite disturbing]

Many rpgs let someone import a beloved character--the difference here was--the character could win the game by *dying*. That is a huge difference.

Bioware emotionally manipulated that situation and that's all fair and well in the pursuit of a great story--but it also entails a certain amount of responsibility if they want the USers to feel that they haven't simply been grossly emotionally manipulated in order to sell games without some responsibility to at least do some work and planning around the possible ramifications of writing that into the gameplaying experience.

The fact that folks are so concerned with the continuity of that story speaks to the emotional investment they put into that character. And that emotional investment speaks to Bioware's writing brilliance that caused such an investment.

The characters who sacrificed don't want to feel that their sacrifice was pointless--they might have left behind a lover, friends, team mates they cared about within the game. They want to feel their sacrifice was *honoured*. They might have put Alister on the throne for a reason. Or USed rather than ask another character to do it.

Quite bluntly--it's about grieving. It's about wanting to believe that a life--even a fictional character, did something heroic for a purpose and changed something in the history of that fictional world. It's about something basic. The search for meaning.

The reason players are wigged is that Bioware has played with some basic human concepts of love, grief, sacrifice, betrayal, what is honorable? [are the Grey Wardens really honorable when they manipulate people into GWs and not tell them that they will become darkspawn themselves, one day?]
These are the deepest places of the human heart. They're places we don't talk about, much.

However, if you put such things in a game, you have to be aware of the psychological ramifications of dropping the ball when players now feel that they've been manipulated instead of cared about as the fan base of the game.

It's about wanting to believe that everyone leaves their mark in the world before they die. That's a pretty basic human trait to mess with.

Any good novel writer could tell you this.

Modifié par Swifty, 08 mars 2010 - 02:30 .

[fthg42]

Swifty wrote...

I'm going to throw this soup into the mix and see if it makes sense to anyone.

I think the reason folks are so worked up about the US warden is psychologically simple.

I played one character that way so I get the upset, I really do. I found it harder to sacrifice Loghain than I did to jump on the fire, myself.

The people who USed their characters had an emotional investment in that sacrifice. They thought about the character options, watched the funeral--and I think, it's the feeling that they wanted that sacrifice to *mean* something--not just be palmed off as "nothing" in an expansion. And an Orlesian of all things? [gotta tell you, that IS beyond annoying--in fact it's quite disturbing]

Many rpgs let someone import a beloved character--the difference here was--the character could win the game by *dying*. That is a huge difference.

Bioware emotionally manipulated that situation and that's all fair and well in the pursuit of a great story--but it also entails a certain amount of responsibility if they want the USers to feel that they haven't simply been grossly emotionally manipulated in order to sell games without some responsibility to at least do some work and planning around the possible ramifications of writing that into the gameplaying experience.

The fact that folks are so concerned with the continuity of that story speaks to the emotional investment they put into that character. And that emotional investment speaks to Bioware's writing brilliance that caused such an investment.

The characters who sacrificed don't want to feel that their sacrifice was pointless--they might have left behind a lover, friends, team mates they cared about within the game. They want to feel their sacrifice was *honoured*. They might have put Alister on the throne for a reason. Or USed rather than ask another character to do it.

Quite bluntly--it's about grieving. It's about wanting to believe that a life--even a fictional character, did something heroic for a purpose and changed something in the history of that fictional world. It's about something basic. The search for meaning.

The reason players are wigged is that Bioware has played with some basic human concepts of love, grief, sacrifice, betrayal, what is honorable? [are the Grey Wardens really honorable when they manipulate people into GWs and not tell them that they will become darkspawn themselves, one day?]
These are the deepest places of the human heart. They're places we don't talk about, much.

However, if you put such things in a game, you have to be aware of the psychological ramifications of dropping the ball when players now feel that they've been manipulated instead of cared about as the fan base of the game.

It's about wanting to believe that everyone leaves their mark in the world before they die. That's a pretty basic human trait to mess with.

Any good novel writer could tell you this.

QFT.  [Bolded emphasis mine.]  This entire post encapsulates exactly how I feel about the US ending, a lot more eloquently than I could've put it.

Bravo.

[Onyx Jaguar]

fthg42 wrote...

Swifty wrote...

I'm going to throw this soup into the mix and see if it makes sense to anyone.

I think the reason folks are so worked up about the US warden is psychologically simple.

I played one character that way so I get the upset, I really do. I found it harder to sacrifice Loghain than I did to jump on the fire, myself.

The people who USed their characters had an emotional investment in that sacrifice. They thought about the character options, watched the funeral--and I think, it's the feeling that they wanted that sacrifice to *mean* something--not just be palmed off as "nothing" in an expansion. And an Orlesian of all things? [gotta tell you, that IS beyond annoying--in fact it's quite disturbing]

Many rpgs let someone import a beloved character--the difference here was--the character could win the game by *dying*. That is a huge difference.

Bioware emotionally manipulated that situation and that's all fair and well in the pursuit of a great story--but it also entails a certain amount of responsibility if they want the USers to feel that they haven't simply been grossly emotionally manipulated in order to sell games without some responsibility to at least do some work and planning around the possible ramifications of writing that into the gameplaying experience.

The fact that folks are so concerned with the continuity of that story speaks to the emotional investment they put into that character. And that emotional investment speaks to Bioware's writing brilliance that caused such an investment.

The characters who sacrificed don't want to feel that their sacrifice was pointless--they might have left behind a lover, friends, team mates they cared about within the game. They want to feel their sacrifice was *honoured*. They might have put Alister on the throne for a reason. Or USed rather than ask another character to do it.

Quite bluntly--it's about grieving. It's about wanting to believe that a life--even a fictional character, did something heroic for a purpose and changed something in the history of that fictional world. It's about something basic. The search for meaning.

The reason players are wigged is that Bioware has played with some basic human concepts of love, grief, sacrifice, betrayal, what is honorable? [are the Grey Wardens really honorable when they manipulate people into GWs and not tell them that they will become darkspawn themselves, one day?]
These are the deepest places of the human heart. They're places we don't talk about, much.

However, if you put such things in a game, you have to be aware of the psychological ramifications of dropping the ball when players now feel that they've been manipulated instead of cared about as the fan base of the game.

It's about wanting to believe that everyone leaves their mark in the world before they die. That's a pretty basic human trait to mess with.

Any good novel writer could tell you this.

QFT.  [Bolded emphasis mine.]  This entire post encapsulates exactly how I feel about the US ending, a lot more eloquently than I could've put it.

Bravo.

Yes

[Swifty]

Thanks gang.



I had to think about that. I played 3 different characters and they all impacted differently. When I couldn't get Alister to *not* sacrifice himself [with 5 and huge cunning] I was furious. Nearly punched the screen. I felt like he stole my thunder out of some misguided idiocy. He'd already dumped me for Anora.



Sacrificing Loghain after hearing why he did what he did made me feel that sending him to die was just so *wrong*.



USing caused incredible grief because Zevran was heartbroken [I played a gay Dalish elf scared out of his wits leaving home and having to grow up in the role] and with my death Zev reverted to being an assassin out of grief.



Now I'm on a human noble male warrior [#4] and going to either knock up Morrigan and cheat on Leliana or have Loghain do it. It will have different ramifications.



Each choice brings consequences. Not only to the player, but to the writers.



But the shy gay Elven boy who jumped on the fire? Biggest impact. No question.