268 réponses à ce sujet

[CmdrFenix83]

Koyasha wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

*My* character would've used a renegade interrupt to prevent Nassana's death.

Ok, really off-topic here, but...why?  She's a self-absorbed, dangerous individual who seems to care for nothing but her own rise to power.  She's certainly not the type who values service or assistance, so she would never feel as though she actually owes you anything, and her actions seem to indicate that she'd kill you at the first opportunity just because she's paranoid enough.  I don't see how she would ever be useful or helpful to you personally, or to your mission.

Well, you have to read the rest of what he's saying.  His Shepard is a giant ******.  He probably likes her style.

[CmdrFenix83]

GenericPlayer2 wrote...

All the loyalty arguments go out the window when you select the rally or charismatic options. If you use that argument, then get her exiled. She says she would prefer that when you find the evidence on the Alarei. But no, people go for the charisma option because they think they know better. Well I go for the trial exposure because I believe I know better.

What happened here is not a victimless crime, and it was not an accident. An accident would have been if someone did not intentionally violate protocol with their experiments. Someone has to pay for it. I make sure that the culprit is named. 

Apparently you don't know how lawyers and trials work.  It's not about what you know.  It's not about the evidence.  It's about what you can convince people to buy.  The entire trial was a joke.  It was a ploy for political maneuvering that put the target onto someone that was connected to it in a small way.  Not a single person there thought she was guilty.  Not.  One. 

Apparently you don't seem to understand the concept of punishment.  You cannot punish a DEAD PERSON.  All revealing the evidence does is punish Tali and the rest of the Quarian people for the mistakes of one man.  You're destroying the image of a hero in their eyes.  No one else stands to die if you don't slander Rael, absolutely no good comes from revealing his errors.  Nothing.  Again.  You're just being a douche for the sake of being a douche.

[Zulu_DFA]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Ok, let's call it metagaming too, if you like. But you seem to be unaware of the fact, that *my* character's freedom of choice is too limited due to metagame (real-life) reasons. If *my* character could make any decision, instead of just three in any give situation, then my team for the Omega-4 Relay mission would've consisted of Zaeed-like characters only. With best equipment in the Galaxy. *My* character would've blown Alarei, or told the Admirals to destroy it. *My* charcter would've sent the Grunt to Cerberus for study. *My* character would've used a renegade interrupt to prevent Nassana's death. There is too many limitations of what *my* character can do for your point (that I can skip recruiting Tali, if I don't like her) to be valid.

The fact that the game isn't a PnP RPG doesn't excuse metagaming.  It's a cRPG, you're limited in what you can do, essentially.  That's just the issue with cRPGs in general.  The game *does* allow you to skip recruiting her.  You can't go recruit an optional character and then come here and **** that she's shoved down your throat.  If you made the same case for Miranda, I'd agree with you.  She's forced on you from the start, constantly shoves her opinion in your face, and does nothing but **** about the way the mission's going.  However, that's not what you're saying. 

You're making a baseless accusation and then justifying it by saying 'well there might be upgrades there, so my Shepard will go recruit someone optional that he hates'.  You simply can't do that and then expect to claim she's being shoved down your throat.  Now, if you're claiming the forumites might be shoving her down your throat, I'd probably agree.  As much as I love her character, I don't go near that monster of a thread.  This argument would hold weight.  Claiming the game itself does this is just flat out not true.

Miranda is heavily justified by the plot. She's Cerberus. Tali is not so justifiied. However, when I go recruit her, I'm not metagaiming about upgrades. I metagame up a justification of why would TIM want me to recruit her. And the answer is: TIM's interested in the Migrant Fleet (as known from ME:Ascention). And I even think that prior to docking with the Rayya, *my* character would have called TIM on that quanum something for instructions. And would have been told to gather as much intelligence as possible and act as he saw fit under whatever circumstances emerge. That'd make a perfect sense for TIM and *my* character. To *my* character Tali's trial is not a "loyalty" mission. It's an infiltration mission.

Oh, and by the way I don't know what "cRPG" means, and what "PnP RPGs" are like.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 06 mars 2010 - 02:04 .

[GenericPlayer2]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Apparently you don't know how lawyers and trials work.  It's not about what you know.  It's not about the evidence.  It's about what you can convince people to buy.  The entire trial was a joke.  It was a ploy for political maneuvering that put the target onto someone that was connected to it in a small way.  Not a single person there thought she was guilty.  Not.  One. 

Apparently you don't seem to understand the concept of punishment.  You cannot punish a DEAD PERSON.  All revealing the evidence does is punish Tali and the rest of the Quarian people for the mistakes of one man.  You're destroying the image of a hero in their eyes.  No one else stands to die if you don't slander Rael, absolutely no good comes from revealing his errors.  Nothing.  Again.  You're just being a douche for the sake of being a douche.

Shepard is not a lawyer. I told Tali that, and said that me representing her was a bad idea.

Secondly, yes you can punish a dead person. That is exactly what the Quarians do. If they find out what Rael did on the Alarei, then I am a liar. If they don't then someone might be doomed to repeat his mistake. No one punishes Tali, since she is not exiled. Shala'Raan explains that this is what her father would have wanted. As for the infighting and what happens to the fleet, you see this as a negative, I see it as a positive. Those who want war are free to pursue it without dragging the whole fleet with them. Those who want peace with the Geth can pursue that option without worrying about some warmongering admiral. They are mature people and can make their own decisions. Trying to blame that on Shepard is as absurd as blaming Tali for the Geth taking over the Alarei.

[CmdrFenix83]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Miranda is heavily justified by the plot. She's Cerberus. Tali is not so justifiied. However, when I go recruit her, I'm not metagaiming about upgrades. I metagame up a justification of why would TIM want me to recruit her. And the answer is: TIM's interested in the Migrant Fleet (as known from ME:Ascention). And I even think that prior to docking with the Rayya, *my* character would have called TIM on that quanum something for instructions. And would have been told to gather as much intelligence as possible and act as he saw fit under whatever circumstances emerge. That'd make a perfect sense for TIM and *my* character. To *my* character Tali's trial is not a "loyalty" mission. It's an infiltration mission.

Oh, and by the way I don't know what "cRPG" means, and what "PnP RPGs" are like.

Again, you don't like Tali, she's optional, even if you're pulling up justification for recruiting her after the fact.  She's not forced on you in any way.  Miranda is completely forced on me.  I can't get rid of her, I can't exclude her, and there's nothing I can do about her other than bring her, unloyal, with me to the final boss to watch her die there.  It's impossible to shut her mouth before then. 

cRPG means a computer RPG, or a video game.  They are, due to physical limitations, limited in their freedom.  There's no living person sitting across from you running the game, so your options will be limited.  There's no way around that without a living, breathing person sitting there controlling the NPC's for you.

Granted, I can accept your justifications(even if they are made up after-the-fact) purely on the basis that your Shepard is a giant douchebag.  Then again, you've never hid that fact.  The only debate was that you stated Tali is shoved down your throat, which is flat out not true, as she is very much optional.

[CmdrFenix83]

GenericPlayer2 wrote...

Shepard is not a lawyer. I told Tali that, and said that me representing her was a bad idea.

Secondly, yes you can punish a dead person. That is exactly what the Quarians do. If they find out what Rael did on the Alarei, then I am a liar. If they don't then someone might be doomed to repeat his mistake. No one punishes Tali, since she is not exiled. Shala'Raan explains that this is what her father would have wanted. As for the infighting and what happens to the fleet, you see this as a negative, I see it as a positive. Those who want war are free to pursue it without dragging the whole fleet with them. Those who want peace with the Geth can pursue that option without worrying about some warmongering admiral. They are mature people and can make their own decisions. Trying to blame that on Shepard is as absurd as blaming Tali for the Geth taking over the Alarei.

Except they're all capable of being reasoned with.  All you've done is cause a split a fleet that you're going to need the help of against the Reapers.  The Quarians have the largest fleet in the galaxy, and you've just given them all things to distract from the true objective.  But hey, they're no threat to you, right?  Didn't you say your Shepard is the sole reason for any progress?  To hell with everyone else, right?  Who needs 'em!  You'll plow through the Reaper fleet by yourself.

Edit:  Desperately tried to get a video link of  Matthew McConaughey jumping at that dragon in Reign of Fire and getting eaten, but I can't seem to find one.

Modifié par CmdrFenix83, 06 mars 2010 - 02:37 .

[Zulu_DFA]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Miranda is heavily justified by the plot. She's Cerberus. Tali is not so justifiied. However, when I go recruit her, I'm not metagaiming about upgrades. I metagame up a justification of why would TIM want me to recruit her. And the answer is: TIM's interested in the Migrant Fleet (as known from ME:Ascention). And I even think that prior to docking with the Rayya, *my* character would have called TIM on that quanum something for instructions. And would have been told to gather as much intelligence as possible and act as he saw fit under whatever circumstances emerge. That'd make a perfect sense for TIM and *my* character. To *my* character Tali's trial is not a "loyalty" mission. It's an infiltration mission.

Oh, and by the way I don't know what "cRPG" means, and what "PnP RPGs" are like.

Again, you don't like Tali, she's optional, even if you're pulling up justification for recruiting her after the fact.  She's not forced on you in any way.  Miranda is completely forced on me.  I can't get rid of her, I can't exclude her, and there's nothing I can do about her other than bring her, unloyal, with me to the final boss to watch her die there.  It's impossible to shut her mouth before then.

Try to think of Miranda as antagonist, villain, then.

cRPG means a computer RPG, or a video game.  They are, due to physical limitations, limited in their freedom.  There's no living person sitting across from you running the game, so your options will be limited.  There's no way around that without a living, breathing person sitting there controlling the NPC's for you.

Thanks for clarification. You should concede then, that a little metagaming is necessary for the maximun immersion in cRPG, since the limitations on *your* character are on the outside of the game universe.

Granted, I can accept your justifications(even if they are made up after-the-fact) purely on the basis that your Shepard is a giant douchebag.  Then again, you've never hid that fact.  The only debate was that you stated Tali is shoved down your throat, which is flat out not true, as she is very much optional.

I just mentioned the major reason why Tali is in the game instead of some other character, that wouldn't carry the stigma of that reason, and therefore be more acceptable for me.

And, hey! Maybe there is a good reason to call renegade characters "douchebags", but I can't see it. Unless it is the same reason for which I would call paragon characters "morons". Not that I give a damn. On the contrary, I think that pretending that paragons are morally superior gains you nothing but self-deception on the real motivation behind certain choices. And regardless of all that *my* Shepard is actually quite a nice guy in his off-duty hours... Too bad he's been getting little off-duty time lately.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 06 mars 2010 - 02:54 .

[GenericPlayer2]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...
Except they're all capable of being reasoned with.  All you've done is cause a split a fleet that you're going to need the help of against the Reapers.  The Quarians have the largest fleet in the galaxy, and you've just given them all things to distract from the true objective.  But hey, they're no threat to you, right?  Didn't you say your Shepard is the sole reason for any progress?  To hell with everyone else, right?  Who needs 'em!  You'll plow through the Reaper fleet by yourself.

Edit:  Desperately tried to get a video link of  Matthew McConaughey jumping at that dragon in Reign of Fire and getting eaten, but I can't seem to find one.

Nothing I have seen of the Quarians convinces me they could do anything against the reapers. They failed at Freedom's Progress, they failed on Haelstrom, and they failed on the Alarei. If ME3 truly is an alliance building game, and the player is given a choice in the matter, I will be sticking to allies I believe are capable and competent.

[Phinco]

Like some previous posters said, Tali is one of the few loyal members and friends we have. She also looks up to you alot, which means she respects you. If there is a war between the Geth/Quarians, which I hope we can either help start, fight in, or bring peace, but with the twist at the end (Legion's Loyalty mission), I believe we can have some influence, I opted to upload the virus to get rid of the "Heretics", and convert them back, but im sure it will have a negative consequence. Wouldnt it be cool if we relocated the Migrant Fleet to another planet, they settle down, and it happens to be on the same planet the Arachni Queen is on, Court betrays Tali once again, and we get to teach that damn council a lesson.

[CmdrFenix83]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

I just mentioned the major reason why Tali is in the game instead of some other character, that wouldn't carry the stigma of that reason, and therefore be more acceptable for me.

And, hey! Maybe there is a good reason to call renegade charachters "douchebags", but I can't see it. Unless it is the same reason for which I would call paragon characters "morons". Not that I give a damn. On the contrary, I think that pretending that paragons are morally superior gains you nothing but self-deception of the real motivation behind certain choices. And regardless of all that *my* Shepard is actually quite a nice guy in his off-duty hours... Too bad he's been getting little off-duty time lately.

Except, you've said flat out that you're a douchebag.  You've tortured or killed off several squad members on the basis that you 'don't like them'.  You can claim the Paragons aren't the morally superior, but that's just laughably funny.  The game itself disagrees with you.  Don't kid yourself, buddy.  The only difference between ME's Para/Rene system and KotOR's Light/Darkside system is that you don't ever lose points after you've gotten them.  A Renegade is just a Darksider with a fancy name.  Even if the name doesn't support this, the decision system in-game proves otherwise.  To go pure Renegade you have to be a racist, violent, ****** that goes out of his way to screw people over.  No difference at all.

Modifié par CmdrFenix83, 06 mars 2010 - 03:00 .

[GenericPlayer2]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

 The only difference between ME's Para/Rene system and KotOR's Light/Darkside system is that you don't ever lose points after you've gotten them.  A Renegade is just a Darksider with a fancy name.  Even if the name doesn't support this, the decision system in-game proves otherwise.  To go pure Renegade you have to be a racist, violent, ****** that goes out of his way to screw people over.  No difference at all.

You know what, I have played both KOTOR games and I could not disagree more. Being a renegade in ME is nothing like the Darkside in KOTOR.

[ConnorElzaim]

I've always found as 'interesting' some of the pure renegade options are I've had a supreme difficulty as long as can be remembered with taking the darker option in games. So I believe the answer would be no, I wouldn't. Honestly why go on a mission 'for' Tali only to go out of your way to defy her wishes to let her fathers name remain good in the eyes of the public. I generally use the paragon option or rally the crowd to my favour to pull a not guilty out of my ass.

[CmdrFenix83]

GenericPlayer2 wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

 The only difference between ME's Para/Rene system and KotOR's Light/Darkside system is that you don't ever lose points after you've gotten them.  A Renegade is just a Darksider with a fancy name.  Even if the name doesn't support this, the decision system in-game proves otherwise.  To go pure Renegade you have to be a racist, violent, ****** that goes out of his way to screw people over.  No difference at all.

You know what, I have played both KOTOR games and I could not disagree more. Being a renegade in ME is nothing like the Darkside in KOTOR.

Well, you're entitled to your opinion, but that's where it'll stay. 

[thegreateski]

GenericPlayer2 wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

 The only difference between ME's Para/Rene system and KotOR's Light/Darkside system is that you don't ever lose points after you've gotten them.  A Renegade is just a Darksider with a fancy name.  Even if the name doesn't support this, the decision system in-game proves otherwise.  To go pure Renegade you have to be a racist, violent, ****** that goes out of his way to screw people over.  No difference at all.

You know what, I have played both KOTOR games and I could not disagree more. Being a renegade in ME is nothing like the Darkside in KOTOR.

"I have come to cleanse this slum of all life!"
*Force lightning*

That conversation option never gets old.


Very different games.

Modifié par thegreateski, 06 mars 2010 - 03:15 .

[Zulu_DFA]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

I just mentioned the major reason why Tali is in the game instead of some other character, that wouldn't carry the stigma of that reason, and therefore be more acceptable for me.

And, hey! Maybe there is a good reason to call renegade charachters "douchebags", but I can't see it. Unless it is the same reason for which I would call paragon characters "morons". Not that I give a damn. On the contrary, I think that pretending that paragons are morally superior gains you nothing but self-deception of the real motivation behind certain choices. And regardless of all that *my* Shepard is actually quite a nice guy in his off-duty hours... Too bad he's been getting little off-duty time lately.

Except, you've said flat out that you're a douchebag.  You've tortured or killed off several squad members on the basis that you 'don't like them'.  You can claim the Paragons aren't the morally superior, but that's just laughably funny.  The game itself disagrees with you.  Don't kid yourself, buddy.  The only difference between ME's Para/Rene system and KotOR's Light/Darkside system is that you don't ever lose points after you've gotten them.  A Renegade is just a Darksider with a fancy name.  Even if the name doesn't support this, the decision system in-game proves otherwise.  To go pure Renegade you have to be a racist, violent, ****** that goes out of his way to screw people over.  No difference at all.

Wow-wow-wow. I typed "Giant Douchebag Shepard" in reply to a post that called *my* character "giant douchebag". It was an irony, as you can guess *my* character's first name is not "Giant Douchebag", and neither "he", nor me consider him a "douchebag". I (as a player, the real me, not *my* character) did arrange deaths for certain squadmates on the "suicide mission". I did it for the sake of *my* canon story, where the "suicide mission" wasn't an easy picnic, but an assault at the object crawling with hostile lifeforms without any reconnaissance or intelligence. Hence bodycount. Heavy metagaming, but mark it, it was aimed at worsening the outcome not improving (on 1st playthrough I lost only one squadmate). This bodycount included Mordin, the character I liked very much. But I (as the player in charge) was in the mood of giving his carreer a bright ending. I also came to like Jack more than Samara and Garrus and Jacob, yet I killed off Jack too. Now I'm thinking of including Jacob in the list of *my* canon fatalities.

As for morality in general... Buddy, do you know how many moral codes exist in the modern world? Christianity-based liberal thing they call "human rights" is total BS in Islamic world or in China. I literally laughed out loud when it was mocked in ME1: if you endorse Charles Saracino's candidacy, Shepard states: "We need more politicians with the courage to stand up for human rights!" And do you know how many more morality systems are there in the books? So no. Paragons aren't morally superior. I don't buy it. *My* human-centric Shepard who puts little value in a life of individual (including his own) is a highly moral person. He is just not Christian.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 06 mars 2010 - 03:34 .

[NICKjnp]

in a hearbeat... she looks like a chicken.

[Azint]

NICKjnp wrote...

in a hearbeat... she looks like a chicken.

[Gavinthelocust]

applehug wrote...

Fortunately, Charismatic Shepard is charismatic so it didn't have to come to this. However, if I was playing the Galaxy's biggest ****, I wouldn't do that. No one is that evil.

Udina is that evil
and a reaper