268 réponses à ce sujet

[AM50]

Did I betray her in ME2? Nope.



Would I in ME3? Depends. If it comes down to saving a group of people or her.

[ZennExile]

thedoncarnage wrote...

This is another example of how messed up the Paragon/Renegade system is.

Betraying Tali here is not a "badass" thing to do, nor is it even renegade for that matter. Telling the truth about a war criminal's actions is a VERY Paragon thing to do because it's the lawful, by-the-book outcome. On the other hand covering up evidence at a trial is extremely renegade. But instead the devs swapped those labels because for some reason Bioware's writers think renegade = jerk. It's sad, really.

Let's imagine the real life equivalent here: An investigator at the Nuremberg trials covers up evidence of war crimes against one of Hitler's generals. Why? Because the general's daughter is a friend of the investigator. Would letting the criminal get off be a "paragon" thing to do? Hell no.

/rant.

This is what happens when you let character designers write the story instead of creating characters based on an existing story.

[GenericPlayer2]

thedoncarnage wrote...

This is another example of how messed up the Paragon/Renegade system is.

Betraying Tali here is not a "badass" thing to do, nor is it even renegade for that matter. Telling the truth about a war criminal's actions is a VERY Paragon thing to do because it's the lawful, by-the-book outcome. On the other hand covering up evidence at a trial is extremely renegade. But instead the devs swapped those labels because for some reason Bioware's writers think renegade = jerk. It's sad, really.

Let's imagine the real life equivalent here: An investigator at the Nuremberg trials covers up evidence of war crimes against one of Hitler's generals. Why? Because the general's daughter is a friend of the investigator. Would letting the criminal get off be a "paragon" thing to do? Hell no.

/rant.

I don't disagree with your premise, but the analogy is extreme. Keep in mind the Quarians look at the Geth as machines, so you cant pull the Nuremburg reference. More accurate would be to say if there was an accident at a weapon's lab.

One of the things I don't understand is why the trial was public. If it was such a sensitive issue, and the ship was a weapon's lab, I don't see why it wouldn't be behind closed doors. I imagine if there was an inquiry about an accident at Lockheed or Boeing, we wouldn't be seeing it on TV or reading about it in the papers.

[Zulu_DFA]

GenericPlayer2 wrote...

ZennExile wrote...

Tali gets annoying after the naughty librarian novelty wears off tbh. Betraying her would be easy. The Quarians are basically space age gypsies that serve little galactic purpose other than to spread angst. If the option to have the geth destroy the flotilla through abusing Tali and starting the war exists in ME3 I will play it for no other reason.

Its not only the novelty that wears off fast, but she can get downright nasty if you present the evidence. I have to sit through conversations where she talks about how she joined the team despite working with Cerberus and conveniently  forgets that I saved her from those thugs on the citadel, did her pilgrimage for her, that I saved her mission on Freedom's progress and saved her and Reegar on Haelstrom. She tries to convey that I owe her somehow when the fact is she would have been dead 3-4 times over if not for me. Again this makes it hard to take her seriously.

Hey, Tali is the main character of Mass Effect trilogy. Didn't you know that?

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 05 mars 2010 - 06:20 .

[AddoExAtrum]

XX55XX wrote...

I just watched this guy do it:



Kind of sad, actually. Would you guys betray her, even if you were trying to be a complete badass throughout your playthrough?

I can't. I tried so hard with my renegade shep and I just couldn't do it. Shes to damn sweet

[Madecologist]

The Angry One wrote...

Unsurprising given BioWare's mindset.
Back in KotOR there was that bit where you were defending this Republic agent from a murder charge.
Now, he was guilty. But you got light side points for getting him off by... intimidating or force persuading witnesses and witholding evidence.
Telling the truth and letting the witnesses say what actually happened was considered the dark side option!

I remember that... but I think these are worst in ME. Mostly because the two do not negate each other. So it is okay for a Shepard to get some Renegade or Paragon even if it is oppisite to what he usually is. Sure some players get all offended when they get "some Renegade" points, but overall those complaints are superficial since you are not penalised for accumilating points in the other scale.

But actually the truth is, walking a certain path should be hard, being pure Paragon will not always be easy. Same is true for Light Sider in Star Wars. Even the best of Jedi's sometimes act selfish (might be justified for the greater good), same is true to a "Paragon Shepard", he or her too will sometimes will have to go Renegade for their greater ideals (since most ideals tend to transcend the scales anyways).

Modifié par Madecologist, 05 mars 2010 - 06:24 .

[Zulu_DFA]

thedoncarnage wrote...

This is another example of how messed up the Paragon/Renegade system is.

Betraying Tali here is not a "badass" thing to do, nor is it even renegade for that matter. Telling the truth about a war criminal's actions is a VERY Paragon thing to do because it's the lawful, by-the-book outcome. On the other hand covering up evidence at a trial is extremely renegade. But instead the devs swapped those labels because for some reason Bioware's writers would rather equate renegade with "jerk" instead of the true definition: Someone willing to go outside the law to accomplish a task.

Let's imagine the real life equivalent here: An investigator at the Nuremberg trials covers up evidence of war crimes against one of Hitler's generals. Why? Because the general's daughter is a friend of the investigator. Would letting the criminal get off be a "paragon" thing to do? Hell no. But would it be the right thing to do? That answer is in the eye of the beholder.

/rant.

Paragon =/= good, =/= lawful
Renegade =/=bad, =/= jerk

Paragon = tranquil emotions
Renegade = frantic emotions

"Betraying" Tali is frantic, because it contradicts with what she asks you to do. Consealing the evidence = giving in, no conflict with team member = tranquil.

[thedoncarnage]

GenericPlayer2 wrote...

thedoncarnage wrote...

This is another example of how messed up the Paragon/Renegade system is.

Betraying Tali here is not a "badass" thing to do, nor is it even renegade for that matter. Telling the truth about a war criminal's actions is a VERY Paragon thing to do because it's the lawful, by-the-book outcome. On the other hand covering up evidence at a trial is extremely renegade. But instead the devs swapped those labels because for some reason Bioware's writers think renegade = jerk. It's sad, really.

Let's imagine the real life equivalent here: An investigator at the Nuremberg trials covers up evidence of war crimes against one of Hitler's generals. Why? Because the general's daughter is a friend of the investigator. Would letting the criminal get off be a "paragon" thing to do? Hell no.

/rant.

I don't disagree with your premise, but the analogy is extreme. Keep in mind the Quarians look at the Geth as machines, so you cant pull the Nuremburg reference. More accurate would be to say if there was an accident at a weapon's lab.

One of the things I don't understand is why the trial was public. If it was such a sensitive issue, and the ship was a weapon's lab, I don't see why it wouldn't be behind closed doors. I imagine if there was an inquiry about an accident at Lockheed or Boeing, we wouldn't be seeing it on TV or reading about it in the papers.

I don't think the analogy is extreme. The Quarians treated the Geth as machines and experimented on them. *N-A-Z-I's treated racial minorities like animals and experimented on them. Maybe not a perfect fit, but darn close.

But in the end it's really just semantics. We both agree it still doesn't explain why Bioware thinks that covering up evidence at trials is a "paragon" thing to do. As a previous poster noted, they pulled a similar stunt in KotOR.

EDIT: For some reason the forum doesn't let me write "N-A-Z-I."

Modifié par thedoncarnage, 05 mars 2010 - 06:36 .

[Madecologist]

The problem is not everything is Red or Blue. There is a lot of shades of Purple in the Universe.

I hate myself for that joke now..... yet I think I was being serious too... which makes me hate myself even more.

[ZennExile]

This focus on good and evil rather than personal preferance is killing the roleplay part of this series. Paragon and Renagade need to both have good and evil choices. There need to be hard choices that aren't labled as blue or red that affect the character and the game. Force the player to actually choose a path instead of giving them a crayon colored map of good vs evil and saying "pick one" then proceeding to force the player to pick the same one over and over until a point score is high enough to pick a really "hard" one later in the game.



It's lazy design, poor writing, and ****** poor gameplay,

[GenericPlayer2]

The only one I respected in that quest was Shala'Raan (thats her name right), who moderates the admirals. I once let Tali get exiled as per her wishes, and the lady gave me an earful (and rightly so). She risked a lot so we would be allowed on board that ship to find out what happened, and we come back with 'nothing'



Regarding KoToR, who are we talking about? I remember Ordo's contact on some weird planet (they had beastmasters and some queen in trouble), and I had to spring him from jail - but I am pretty sure he wasn't guilty.

[frokenscheim]

ZennExile wrote...

This focus on good and evil rather than personal preferance is killing the roleplay part of this series. Paragon and Renagade need to both have good and evil choices. There need to be hard choices that aren't labled as blue or red that affect the character and the game. Force the player to actually choose a path instead of giving them a crayon colored map of good vs evil and saying "pick one" then proceeding to force the player to pick the same one over and over until a point score is high enough to pick a really "hard" one later in the game.

It's lazy design, poor writing, and ****** poor gameplay,

I can honestly say I do always do what I feel is right in a given situation, and while that usually runs toward teh paragon side of things, I'll go renegade if that's what seems right. And there are some genuinely ambiguous moral choices. The genophage issue, the Rachni, the Geth/heretics decision...those all seem pretty gray to me, with practical and moral consequences for either choice.

[thegreateski]

GenericPlayer2 wrote...

The only one I respected in that quest was Shala'Raan (thats her name right), who moderates the admirals. I once let Tali get exiled as per her wishes, and the lady gave me an earful (and rightly so). She risked a lot so we would be allowed on board that ship to find out what happened, and we come back with 'nothing'

Regarding KoToR, who are we talking about? I remember Ordo's contact on some weird planet (they had beastmasters and some queen in trouble), and I had to spring him from jail - but I am pretty sure he wasn't guilty.

The first KoToR.

[cipher_Cero]

thedoncarnage wrote...

GenericPlayer2 wrote...

thedoncarnage wrote...

This is another example of how messed up the Paragon/Renegade system is.

Betraying Tali here is not a "badass" thing to do, nor is it even renegade for that matter. Telling the truth about a war criminal's actions is a VERY Paragon thing to do because it's the lawful, by-the-book outcome. On the other hand covering up evidence at a trial is extremely renegade. But instead the devs swapped those labels because for some reason Bioware's writers think renegade = jerk. It's sad, really.

Let's imagine the real life equivalent here: An investigator at the Nuremberg trials covers up evidence of war crimes against one of Hitler's generals. Why? Because the general's daughter is a friend of the investigator. Would letting the criminal get off be a "paragon" thing to do? Hell no.

/rant.

I don't disagree with your premise, but the analogy is extreme. Keep in mind the Quarians look at the Geth as machines, so you cant pull the Nuremburg reference. More accurate would be to say if there was an accident at a weapon's lab.

One of the things I don't understand is why the trial was public. If it was such a sensitive issue, and the ship was a weapon's lab, I don't see why it wouldn't be behind closed doors. I imagine if there was an inquiry about an accident at Lockheed or Boeing, we wouldn't be seeing it on TV or reading about it in the papers.

I don't think the analogy is extreme. The Quarians treated the Geth as machines and experimented on them. ****s treated racial minorities like animals and experimented on them. Maybe not a perfect fit, but darn close.

But in the end it's really just semantics. We both agree it still doesn't explain why Bioware thinks that covering up evidence at trials is a "paragon" thing to do. As a previous poster noted, they pulled a similar stunt in KotOR.

I'd say it's extreme. You're not dealing with people. You're not dealing with animals. You're dealing with glorified computers that have compounded to perform complex tasks that are currently trying to destroy organics. They don't feel pain. They have no emotion. At this point they merely function.
You're not taking prisoners, either. You're taking deactivated mobile platforms and reconnecting them to a localized neural network where their runtimes can compound.

That's not a war crime. It is, as said, closer to a lab accident, and it happened with computer programs.

One of the things I don't understand is why the trial was public. If
it was such a sensitive issue, and the ship was a weapon's lab, I don't
see why it wouldn't be behind closed doors. I imagine if there was an
inquiry about an accident at Lockheed or Boeing, we wouldn't be seeing
it on TV or reading about it in the papers.

Wow. Thanks for pointing that out--I hadn't even considered that.

For one thing, the quarian are very community-centered. What affects one affects the whole Fleet, particularly because they share such limited resources (the point of the Pilgrimage is to prove that you can contribute to the Fleet). For that reason, the Admiralty Board probably felt that this was in the interest of the community and decided to hold it publicly.

But you're right, it was definitely a much more sensitive issue, especially dealing with a member of the Admiralty. It may have been better handled out of the public eye. The evidence could be presented and avoid the societal maelstrom.

[Internet Kraken]

Zulu_DFA wrote...
Paragon = tranquil emotions
Renegade = frantic emotions

Becuase threatning to break an Elcor's legs or punching Zaeed in the face are definetly tranquil actions. And yet, the game considers these paragon actions.

Modifié par Internet Kraken, 05 mars 2010 - 06:54 .

[thegreateski]

Internet Kraken wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...
Paragon = tranquil emotions
Renegade = frantic emotions

Becuase threatning to break an Elcor's legs or punching Zaeed in the face are definetly tranquil actions. And yet, the considers these paragon actions.

Everyone has their off days . . . It's all Kelly's fault.

She gave me a Pepsi when I ordered a Coke.

Modifié par thegreateski, 05 mars 2010 - 06:53 .

[Madecologist]

Again, there is no Red or Blue, it is all shades of Purple.

[Internet Kraken]

thegreateski wrote...

Internet Kraken wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...
Paragon = tranquil emotions
Renegade = frantic emotions

Becuase threatning to break an Elcor's legs or punching Zaeed in the face are definetly tranquil actions. And yet, the considers these paragon actions.

Everyone has their off days . . .

Missing the point. What I'm trying to point out is that renegade and paragon are whatever the writers decide to make them. You can claim that paragon is good, but there are paragon options that are not good. You can claim that renegade is being a jerk, but there are renegade options that aren't being a jerk. This wouldn't matter if it weren't for that god awful point system that effectivley rail roads you to one path.

Though recently I've begun considering a playthrough in which I ignore all of those blue/red choices. I think the story would be better for it.

Madecologist wrote...

Again, there is no Red or Blue, it is all shades of Purple.

Which is why being awarded points based on your choices is a problem. It can lock you out of dialogue options later in the game.

Modifié par Internet Kraken, 05 mars 2010 - 06:54 .

[Zulu_DFA]

thegreateski wrote...

Internet Kraken wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...
Paragon = tranquil emotions
Renegade = frantic emotions

Becuase threatning to break an Elcor's legs or punching Zaeed in the face are definetly tranquil actions. And yet, the considers these paragon actions.

Everyone has their off days . . .

The purpose/result of those actions is still "paragon", I presume (saving someone's worthless arse = at peace with your selt-rigteous conscience).

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 05 mars 2010 - 06:56 .

[thedoncarnage]

ZennExile wrote...

This focus on good and evil rather than personal preferance is killing the roleplay part of this series. Paragon and Renagade need to both have good and evil choices. There need to be hard choices that aren't labled as blue or red that affect the character and the game. Force the player to actually choose a path instead of giving them a crayon colored map of good vs evil and saying "pick one" then proceeding to force the player to pick the same one over and over until a point score is high enough to pick a really "hard" one later in the game.

It's lazy design, poor writing, and ****** poor gameplay,

Quoted for truth, man. It seems like a lot of forum readers have picked up on this in other threads. I hope Bioware notices this and addresses it in ME3. It's not a game breaking issue, but it's pretty bloody annoying. Case in point: my roommate doesnt even think about his dialogue options. He just picks the blue one regardless of what it actually does. How can a player fully appreciate the magnitude of a decision if one answer is clearly labeled "good?"

Zulu_DFA wrote...
Paragon =/= good, =/= lawful
Renegade =/=bad, =/= jerk

Paragon = tranquil emotions
Renegade = frantic emotions
"Betraying"
Tali is frantic, because it contradicts with what she asks you to do.
Consealing the evidence = giving in, no conflict with team member =
tranquil.

No offense but that's not how the current system is set up. If that was the case you would have to agree with everything your teammates ask of you. So what happens when Miranda asks you to sell off Legion and Jacob says to destroy it? By your logic killing Legion would be a Paragon path.

I think it's pretty obvious Bioware doesn't actually have a concrete model on what constitutes Renegade and Paragon. But most people I've seen posting seem to agree Renegade should be outside the law, Paragon should be goody two-shoes- erm, I mean inside the law.

[huntrrz]

One of the things I don't understand is why the trial was public. If it was such a sensitive issue, and the ship was a weapon's lab, I don't see why it wouldn't be behind closed doors. I imagine if there was an inquiry about an accident at Lockheed or Boeing, we wouldn't be seeing it on TV or reading about it in the papers.

Wow. Thanks for pointing that out--I hadn't even considered that.

For one thing, the quarian are very community-centered. What affects one affects the whole Fleet, particularly because they share such limited resources (the point of the Pilgrimage is to prove that you can contribute to the Fleet). For that reason, the Admiralty Board probably felt that this was in the interest of the community and decided to hold it publicly.

But you're right, it was definitely a much more sensitive issue, especially dealing with a member of the Admiralty. It may have been better handled out of the public eye. The evidence could be presented and avoid the societal maelstrom.

You're both forgetting that the trial was public because it was a show-trial - the admirals were using it to push their agendas on attacking the Geth.  They didn't give a hoot if Tali was actually responsible for what happened on the Alarei, it was all political grandstanding.

[Internet Kraken]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

thegreateski wrote...

Internet Kraken wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...
Paragon = tranquil emotions
Renegade = frantic emotions

Becuase threatning to break an Elcor's legs or punching Zaeed in the face are definetly tranquil actions. And yet, the considers these paragon actions.

Everyone has their off days . . .

The purpose/result of those actions is still "paragon" I presume (saving someone's worthles arse = at peace with your selt-rigteous conscience).

You're post claimed that paragon/renegade options were linked to tranquil/frantic emotions. I proved this wrong. You can't claim that the end result of these actions is "paragon" becuase you claimed that paragon actions are always linked to tranquil emotions.

[MajorStranger]

Everytime I take the Paragon choice, this way I don't betray Tali and still don't get her exiled

[Homebound]

Am I the ONLY ONE that noticed Jack in the background? I dont think a facemask and less clothes than a stripper could be considered a contained suit.

[Madecologist]

MajorStranger wrote...

Everytime I take the Paragon choice, this way I don't betray Tali and still don't get her exiled

People refering to the white options. Blue/Red options will give Paragon and Renegade points accordingly, and still get her off the hook and not reveal the evidence. This just muddies the whole Paragon/Renegade values on the white options.