268 réponses à ce sujet

[Acero Azul]

 oh **** son that was rough

[Xenon]

Betray Tali? No, of course not! In my last play through I intimidated the admirals. But then during the suicide mission I left her to die defending the door alone...

[kalpain]

Just_mike wrote...

Am I the ONLY ONE that noticed Jack in the background? I dont think a facemask and less clothes than a stripper could be considered a contained suit.

^This

But seriously, Admiral Xen is the reason my mostly "Renegade" play through will be destroying the Geth.

[cipher_Cero]

huntrrz wrote...

One of the things I don't understand is why the trial was public. If it was such a sensitive issue, and the ship was a weapon's lab, I don't see why it wouldn't be behind closed doors. I imagine if there was an inquiry about an accident at Lockheed or Boeing, we wouldn't be seeing it on TV or reading about it in the papers.

Wow. Thanks for pointing that out--I hadn't even considered that.

For one thing, the quarian are very community-centered. What affects one affects the whole Fleet, particularly because they share such limited resources (the point of the Pilgrimage is to prove that you can contribute to the Fleet). For that reason, the Admiralty Board probably felt that this was in the interest of the community and decided to hold it publicly.

But you're right, it was definitely a much more sensitive issue, especially dealing with a member of the Admiralty. It may have been better handled out of the public eye. The evidence could be presented and avoid the societal maelstrom.

You're both forgetting that the trial was public because it was a show-trial - the admirals were using it to push their agendas on attacking the Geth.  They didn't give a hoot if Tali was actually responsible for what happened on the Alarei, it was all political grandstanding.

This.
Thanks for reminding me of that. I should have remembered since Shepard ranted about that on my last playthrough.
Question: does Shepard's Paragon/Renegade rant change based on whether or not you talk to the Admiralty before boarding the Alarei? On my recent playthrough Shepard calls the Admiralty out on using the trial to shove their propaganda, and it was the only time I ever bothered to talk to the Admiralty beforehand. I couldn't quite tell if the dialogue changed.

I'm not so much starting to change my mind about it, but I'm just failing to see how anyone benefits from either option.
Presenting the evidence takes the political rift in the Admiralty and drives it straight into the fleet, effectively dividing the quarian people.
Not presenting the evidence preserves their complete ignorance on the matter that a member of the Admiralty board put them all in grave danger.
Both wind up providing Dar'Xen with the data she wanted, anyway.

[Zulu_DFA]

Internet Kraken wrote...

You're post claimed that paragon/renegade options were linked to tranquil/frantic emotions. I proved this wrong. You can't claim that the end result of these actions is "paragon" becuase you claimed that paragon actions are always linked to tranquil emotions.

The end result (saving someone's worthless arse) produces tranquility. Hence paragon. If the end result is the same, the way to achieve that result is taken into account. However, exceptions/mistakes/disregards/ are possible. But generally my description of paragon/renegade system fits in better then good/evil and lawful/chaotic. It's not a morality system. It's an emotions system. BTW, that's why the two counters work independently of each other.

[Zulu_DFA]

kalpain wrote...

Just_mike wrote...

Am I the ONLY ONE that noticed Jack in the background? I dont think a facemask and less clothes than a stripper could be considered a contained suit.

^This

But seriously, Admiral Xen is the reason my mostly "Renegade" play through will be destroying the Geth.

Maybe taking Jack to a quarian ship is the only way to have her take a shower...

[GenericPlayer2]

The thing is if each side on the Admiralty board is willing to take the risk of grandstanding, and I am being asked what I found on the Alarei in public, is it my fault for telling the truth? Should I lie to cover up someone else's crimes because my immature team member asked me to? I didn't even want to go there in the first place, if I agree she says she would have otherwise booked her own passage to the Migrant fleet, if I don't she stays on board. Zero consistency, like something you expect from a child.

Edit: Why is it Shepard's job to protect the Quarians from their own stupidity? You can apply this statement to any number of Quarian encounters in the game.

Modifié par GenericPlayer2, 05 mars 2010 - 07:17 .

[Internet Kraken]

The end result (saving someone's worthless arse) produces tranquility. Hence paragon. If the end result is the same, the way to achieve that result is taken into account.

Punching Zaeed in the face is unnecessary and produces no tranquility. You're clearly wrong. Plenty of renegade choices result in tranquility yet their paragon counterparts do not. Constantly berating the Illusive Man produces no tranquility, but is paragon.

However, exceptions/mistakes/disregards/ are possible. But generally my description of paragon/renegade system fits in better then good/evil and lawful/chaotic. It's not a morality system. It's an emotions system. BTW, that's why the two counters work independently of each other.

My point is that whatever you think the system is based on is wrong. It's based on the writers vague idea of paragon and renegade during the time of writing.

Modifié par Internet Kraken, 05 mars 2010 - 07:26 .

[notphrog]

I did it once. Almost loaded and undid it. Only reason I continued was to see how it affects ME3. Even worse is the convo on the ship afterward. That hurt. A lot.

[Internet Kraken]

GenericPlayer2 wrote...



Edit: Why is it Shepard's job to protect the Quarians from their own stupidity? You can apply this statement to any number of Quarian encounters in the game.

I think BioWare is trying to portray them as a sympathetic race due to their weakened people and oppressed status in galactic society. It doesn't work for me. Just makes me see most Quarians as incompetent and worthless.

[MyChemicalBromance]

I talk my way out of it, but I let Quib Quib know I side with him, and I'm damn proud of it.

[Zulu_DFA]

Internet Kraken wrote...

The end result (saving someone's worthless arse) produces tranquility. Hence paragon. If the end result is the same, the way to achieve that result is taken into account

Punching Zaeed in the face is unnecessary and produces no tranquility. You're clearly wrong. Plenty of renegade choices result in tranquility yet their paragon counterparts do not. Constantly berating the Illusive Man produces no tranquility, but is paragon.

Normal "paragon" actions (aka charm) do not work on people like Zaeed and TIM. They are both hardass renegades, which is percieved as "dicks" by paragons. And paragons feel compelled/entitled to confronting hardass renegades. Being nice to a hardass (non-charmable) renegade = compromise = uneasy conscience = frantic. Confronting a renegade even though, or especially when it has no practical meaning = upheld self-esteem = easy conscience = tranquility.

My point is that whatever you think the system is based on is wrong. It's based on the writers vague idea of paragon and renegade during the time of writing.

If it is hard for you to understand the system, it doesn't mean it's not there. Maybe they put some of those contradictory examples in just to make it harder to deduce the system. But working on a vague idea... is unprofessional. Personally, I have a lot of grudge about ME2, and it includes the writers' department too. But they are not unprofessional. They just made certain decisions, that I don't like. You seem not to like the existing paragon/renegade system.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 05 mars 2010 - 07:42 .

[kelmar6821]

Tali Zora is a communist, I owe here no allegiance

[Snowraptor]

The Angry One wrote...

I wouldn't really see it as a betrayal. If Rael wanted to be an idiot then on his head be it.
Tali would rather fall on her sword than tell the truth about her dead dad? Whatever.

Only reason I don't show the evidence is because I don't want the Quarians getting their hands on the anti-Geth technology from it.

you know angry one sometimes i just want to spear you with a harpoon and watch ugly shepard rape your angry shepard.... snowraptor has no sympathy... i think i just colored myself as a tali target.

[Zulu_DFA]

kelmar6821 wrote...

Tali Zora is a communist

You must be joking!

[Internet Kraken]

Zulu_DFA wrote...



Normal "paragon" actions (aka charm) do not work on people like Zaeed and TIM. They are both hardass renegades, which is percieved as "dicks" by aragons. And paragons feel compelled/entitled to confronting hardass renegades. Being nice to a hardass (non-charmable) renegade = copromise = frantic. Confronting a renegade even though, or especially when it has no practical meaning = upheld self-esttem = tranquility.

Uh, no. Not at all. You are linking paragon and renegade to a certain set of ideals. Initially you claimed this was not true. You claimed that paragon=tranquil, and renegade=frantic. Claiming the Illusive Man is a hardass renegade clearly shows this. He is a very tranquil person for the most part. According to your original post he would be a paragon, as again paragon is not linked to being good. It is linked to being tranquil, or so you originally claimed.



And regardless, Shepard lashes out at the Illusive Man at times for no other reason than to show animosity towards him, no matter what he has said or done in the conversation. Sometimes this is considered paragon. This is not tranquil, as Shepard will attack him for no reason.

If it is hard for you to understand the system, it doesn't mean it's not there.

Exactly how many examples do I need to post for you to realize that the system is flawed?

Maybe they put some of those contradictory examples in just to make it harder to deduce the system.

That's ridiculous. What would be the point? Now you just sound desperate for an excuse to keep your fragile argument standing.

But working on a vague idea... is unprofessional. Personally, I have a lot of grudge about ME2, and it includes the writers' department too. But they are not unprofessional. They just made certain decisions, that I don't like. You seem not to like the existing paragon/renegade system.

I never claimed that the writer were unprofessional. They simply do not have a true definition of paragon/renegade. This is only a problem because of the points system associated with your paragon/renegade score.

[cipher_Cero]

I think we should all just agree that this game sucks.

[Zulu_DFA]

Internet Kraken wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Normal "paragon" actions (aka charm) do not work on people like Zaeed and TIM. They are both hardass renegades, which is percieved as "dicks" by aragons. And paragons feel compelled/entitled to confronting hardass renegades. Being nice to a hardass (non-charmable) renegade = copromise = frantic. Confronting a renegade even though, or especially when it has no practical meaning = upheld self-esttem = tranquility.

Uh, no. Not at all. You are linking paragon and renegade to a certain set of ideals. Initially you claimed this was not true. You claimed that paragon=tranquil, and renegade=frantic. Claiming the Illusive Man is a hardass renegade clearly shows this. He is a very tranquil person for the most part. ...

Uh-huh! That's why TIM smokes so much.

/end talk.

[eternalnightmare13]

Xenon wrote...

Betray Tali? No, of course not! In my last play through I intimidated the admirals. But then during the suicide mission I left her to die defending the door alone...

LMAO:O

[Collider]

I was hoping this thread would go into hypothetical situations, rather than the trial. Oh welll. No I wouldn't betray her in the trial, there's no real point to doing so IMO. Quarian politics isn't Shepard's business so just go with what your friend desires. Apparently if you reveal her father's experiments, the fleet gets fragmented into two factions. Not good news for the Quarians or the fight against the reapers.

[mortons4ck]

That was pretty painful to watch. I mean, with Zaeed, the worst thing that happens is some jerk he hates gets away. With this, not only do you mentally devastate a crew member; you condemn an entire species to death.

edit: I'd atleast think renegade shepard would have more foresight than this. (S)He's ruthless, not stupid

Modifié par mortons4ck, 05 mars 2010 - 09:02 .

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

GenericPlayer2 wrote...

ZennExile wrote...

Tali gets annoying after the naughty librarian novelty wears off tbh. Betraying her would be easy. The Quarians are basically space age gypsies that serve little galactic purpose other than to spread angst. If the option to have the geth destroy the flotilla through abusing Tali and starting the war exists in ME3 I will play it for no other reason.

Its not only the novelty that wears off fast, but she can get downright nasty if you present the evidence. I have to sit through conversations where she talks about how she joined the team despite working with Cerberus and conveniently  forgets that I saved her from those thugs on the citadel, did her pilgrimage for her, that I saved her mission on Freedom's progress and saved her and Reegar on Haelstrom. She tries to convey that I owe her somehow when the fact is she would have been dead 3-4 times over if not for me. Again this makes it hard to take her seriously.

She throws a hissyfit if you don't give her the geth data for her pilgrimage. My ME Renegade FemShep learned long before Freedom's Progress to stay clear of that silly Quarian.

Go rescue her on Haestrom? Now why would my FemShep want to waste her time with that?

As for the topic question, probably not, if my Sheps didn't like Tali that much they probably wouldn't have even bothered helping her out (or as in the above case not even bothered recruiting her). Suicide Mission comes first and if she survives (most likely not as won't have got the shield upgrade from her either) then she can deal with it after.

Certainly will be interesting to see whether this does have any affect in ME3 though.

[Mnemnosyne]

I am curious, someone once mentioned that it was possible to give Admiral Xen the data after the trial, but I've never been able to accomplish that. Anyone know if it's possible, or was the person that said that mistaken or lying?



I've tried a few times on my most recent playthrough, but every method I can think of, Tali always interrupts and prevents me from giving it to her. That's what I'd like to do, not present it at the trial, but privately help Admiral Xen, since (at least before meeting Legion) my Shepard fully agrees with her position.

[phordicus]

i was only there to (a) take the ship back from the geth and ( keep tali from getting exiled. ME2 changed somewhat the meaning of para/rene, but i don't equate renegade with being a dick to everyone whenever possible.

[The Angry One]

Snowraptor wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

I wouldn't really see it as a betrayal. If Rael wanted to be an idiot then on his head be it.
Tali would rather fall on her sword than tell the truth about her dead dad? Whatever.

Only reason I don't show the evidence is because I don't want the Quarians getting their hands on the anti-Geth technology from it.

you know angry one sometimes i just want to spear you with a harpoon and watch ugly shepard rape your angry shepard.... snowraptor has no sympathy... i think i just colored myself as a tali target.

I think you should seek some help for that rage problem you have there, or you could just stab yourself in the crotch and do Darwin a huge favour. Either is acceptable.