268 réponses à ce sujet

[JeanLuc761]

On topic, there's absolutely nothing to gain from turning Rael in.  You ****** off your squadmate, splinter the fleet, and destroy the reputation of a good man that made a horrible mistake.  You gain nothing.  Turning in the evidence is just being a douche for the sake of being a douche.

I gotta go with this.  Irrespective of how I feel about Tali (Favorite character/romance), there is literally no benefit to presenting the evidence.

[UsagiVindaloo]

I did not "betray" Tali - Paragon blue for the win! - but I admit I was tempted. Not because I don't love Tali... on the contrary! She's like my favorite character in the game, or at least tied with Garrus and Thane. But for me, that whole decision was a lot more complicated than some people are making it seem, and I don't think presenting the evidence betrays Tali in any way other than not doing what she wants you to.

Consider that, to many people, honesty and openness is a very important ideal, and something to stick with no matter what the consequences. By not presenting the evidence, you are covering up a crime and leaving the quarian people without all the facts. They deserve to know what happened because, well, when something happens, people SHOULD know about it. I felt very uncomfortable sitting on the information (and did take the opportunity to tell that one admiral what had happened). Also, in regards to the negative effects to the fleet... I admit that was a big problem, but not necessarily a foreseeable one. I could have seen my Paragon Shepard telling the quarians what happened with the hope that, with all the information provided to them, they could sit down and have a meaningful discussion of what to do and where to go from there. The fact that they started splintering was surprising.

Another way to look at it is that, while it's true you are not respecting Tali's wishes, you could still be acting for her benefit. As some of the dialog options point out, she SHOULD be exonerated. If you or your Shepard feels strongly that the innocent should not be punished, I can see bypassing her objections and doing what seemed right.

Having said all that, I'm not sure I could bring myself to break poor Tali's heart either. Would love one of the following options:
1) The ability to use Paragon and convince Tali that, regardless of her or your feelings, providing the evidence is something you have to do (based on your moral code, etc).
2) Failing that, nothing says you have to provide ALL the evidence... maybe just the bits that exonerate Tali. ;-)


In a weird way, I almost felt that giving the evidence could have arguably been a Paragon action vs. a Renegade, as it shows a dedication to justice and the letter of the law (vs. the more Renegade stance of playing/ignoring the system). Not saying it doesn't have a certain jack**** quality, but as this board is constantly pointing out, the path of Paragon isn't always the fluffy bunny path.

Modifié par UsagiVindaloo, 05 mars 2010 - 08:40 .

[Daskworx]

No way, Tali is one of Shep's closest and oldest friends. Right or wrong i'd stand by her, just as she would with me.

[Internet Kraken]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Internet Kraken wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...



Normal "paragon" actions (aka charm) do not work on people like Zaeed and TIM. They are both hardass renegades, which is percieved as "dicks" by aragons. And paragons feel compelled/entitled to confronting hardass renegades. Being nice to a hardass (non-charmable) renegade = copromise = frantic. Confronting a renegade even though, or especially when it has no practical meaning = upheld self-esttem = tranquility.

Uh, no. Not at all. You are linking paragon and renegade to a certain set of ideals. Initially you claimed this was not true. You claimed that paragon=tranquil, and renegade=frantic. Claiming the Illusive Man is a hardass renegade clearly shows this. He is a very tranquil person for the most part. ...

Uh-huh! That's why TIM smokes so much.



/end talk.

What? If you're suggesting that TIM smokes so much because he is frantic, then I really have to question your observations.



People don't always smoke just to ease their mind. There was a time when smoking was associated with being a sophisticated person. That's probably the image BioWare is trying to pull off by having him smoke. TIM is very calm and collected most of the time. Hell even if you completley screw over his plan his outburst is quite tame compared to that of other characters in the game. Of all the words I could use to describe him, frantic is definitely not one of them.

[The Governator]

Cypher0020 wrote...

Nope I'd never turn in Tali. To me the evidence didn't really matter, keeping my trust with a friend did. Rael's dead anyways, and I figure her dad's problems aren't Tali's

Plus the Collector/Reaper threat is a tad more important thatn quarian/geth politics

Best answer.

WIN!<3

[GenericPlayer2]

Wow, telling the truth at trial is now being considered evil for the sake of evil, or being a douche bag. If thats the case, then the Turian councilor is a saint.

What do you gain from hiding the truth? The loyalty of an needy, immature Quarian? Continued cover-ups in a fleet that is lying to itself? Tell me, did you guys who gained her loyalty lie about her saving the Citadel from the Geth? Because, you know, it was Shepard who saved the Citadel, not Tali.

I'll repeat again, if this was a sensitive case where the facts may have political implications, where moral norms may not apply, then the trial should not have been public. That is on their heads.

Modifié par GenericPlayer2, 05 mars 2010 - 09:21 .

[JeanLuc761]

What do you gain from hiding the truth? The loyalty of an needy, immature Quarian? Continued cover-ups in a fleet that is lying to itself? Tell me, did you guys who gained her loyalty lie about her saving the Citadel from the Geth? Because, you know, it was Shepard who saved the Citadel, not Tali.

Ignoring your obvious bias against Tali, I'll try to do this as objectively as possible.

Gained
- The loyalty of a friend
- Calling the Admirality Board out on their war politics and how the trial isn't even about Tali (influencing how that will turn out)
- Preventing the quarians from splitting apart due to political dissent.

Lost
- Any possible advantage Rael'Zorah's research would have had.

Personally, I think the pros outweigh the cons here.  As for your last point; it's more than a little egotistical to think of Shepard as the sole savior of the galaxy when he would be absolutely nothing were it not for his friends/squadmates.  I consider Tali equally important to the success of the mission.

[tvai]

Is this a serious question? She's a video game character...I could absolutely do that no problem.



Now if this were a hypothetical situation wherein Tali and all that other ME stuff are real, I would just say, "Ah yes, Reapers." Then I'd proceed to take the Mako for a joy ride up some vertical cliffs.

[FrancisKitt]

I may use her as fleshy cover, but betray her? Nah.

[GenericPlayer2]

JeanLuc761 wrote...

What do you gain from hiding the truth? The loyalty of an needy, immature Quarian? Continued cover-ups in a fleet that is lying to itself? Tell me, did you guys who gained her loyalty lie about her saving the Citadel from the Geth? Because, you know, it was Shepard who saved the Citadel, not Tali.

Ignoring your obvious bias against Tali, I'll try to do this as objectively as possible.

Gained
- The loyalty of a friend
- Calling the Admirality Board out on their war politics and how the trial isn't even about Tali (influencing how that will turn out)
- Preventing the quarians from splitting apart due to political dissent.

Lost
- Any possible advantage Rael'Zorah's research would have had.

Personally, I think the pros outweigh the cons here.  As for your last point; it's more than a little egotistical to think of Shepard as the sole savior of the galaxy when he would be absolutely nothing were it not for his friends/squadmates.  I consider Tali equally important to the success of the mission.

First up, Shepard is the savior of the galaxy. If Tali died, there would be no Lazarus project or billions spent to bring her back. Shepard is the star here, and the rest are along for the ride. Shepard's red/blue speeches about how she saved the Citadel is grandstanding and no better than what the Admirals do.


If you tell the truth, then:

Pro's:

1. You don't have to lie in front of a crowd.
2. Quarians can make up their own minds about what they want to do. The debate ends and everyone chooses their own path.
3. You expose the danger of experimenting on Geth. This will probably save many lives

Con's
1. You don't gain Tali's loyalty. Tali is angry with you. 

It basically comes down to whether you think Tali's loyalty is worth hiding the truth. I call what I do 'taking the high road'. Some people gain satisfaction from that. If ME2 was the last game in the series, I would like to think that several years down the road, when she grows up, she will thank me. Lets not forget Shala'Raan, Tali's only friend in the fleet. If you expose the truth she agrees with what you did and thinks its for the best. I would take her judgement over Tali's any day. If you let Tali get exiled then she rips you a new one. If you go red/blue/rally, then you are just another rabble rousing politician. The Turian councilor will envy you.

Modifié par GenericPlayer2, 05 mars 2010 - 09:44 .

[gneissguy2003]

I have a purely renegade maleShep going right now, and I most certainly plan on handing over that information about her father to the Admiralty Board. I'm not letting some young, quarian tart tell me what to do. Her father lied to her and all the other quarians, betraying their trust.

Besides, I've only ever taken the paragon route with that mission, and it's always annoyed me that I get that email from Admiral Xen afterwards that basically says, "Guess what? I found some interesting data on what Rael was doing and I'm going to continue with it. So much for trying to stop my efforts." I plan on bringing Rael's experiments out into the light so everyone can squirm at the reality of it and chew on it for a while.

Modifié par gneissguy2003, 05 mars 2010 - 09:49 .

[JeanLuc761]

GenericPlayer2 wrote...
First up, Shepard is the savior of the galaxy. If Tali died, there would be no Lazarus project or billions spent to bring her back. Shepard is the star here, and the rest are along for the ride. Shepard's red/blue speeches about how she saved the Citadel is grandstanding and no better than what the Admirals do.


If you tell the truth, then:

Pro's:

1. You don't have to lie in front of a crowd.
2. Quarians can make up their own minds about what they want to do. The debate ends and everyone chooses their own path.
3. You expose the danger of experimenting on Geth. This will probably save many lives

Con's
1. You don't gain Tali's loyalty. Tali is angry with you. 

It basically comes down to whether you think Tali's loyalty is worth hiding the truth. I call what I do 'taking the high road'. Some people gain satisfaction from that. If ME2 was the last game in the series, I would like to think that several years down the road, when she grows up, she will thank me. Lets not forget Shala'Raan, Tali's only friend in the fleet. If you expose the truth she agrees with what you did and thinks its for the best. I would take her judgement over Tali's any day. If you let Tali get exiled then she rips you a new one. If you go red/blue/rally, then you are just another rabble rousing politician. The Turian councilor will envy you.

Hmm, interesting way of looking at it.  I suppose it really does come down to whether or not you value your friendship/romance with Tali more than you value telling the out-and-out truth.  On the flip side, Admiral Xen finds out anyway so it almost feels like the whole thing is moot.

To each their own then but I must say I'm impressed that a decision in a videogame merits this kind of discussion.  (I'll hide the evidence every single time:whistle:)

Modifié par JeanLuc761, 05 mars 2010 - 09:57 .

[Zulu_DFA]

redguppie wrote...

They won't decide what happens with the war until a new admiral is put in place( which won't be a 24 year old engineer). I would speculate that your actions here and the next game will have a impact on that decision. Like say you do everything a certain way and Kal Reeger becomes the next admiral.

Ha. No way a person, that addresses a 24 year old engineer as "Ma'am" becomes an Admiral ahead of that 24 year old engineer.

As for Paragon/Renegade= It's based on the developers morality, not yours, so trying to justify it based on your own outlook is foolish.
If I was to hazard a guess it isn't good and bad
large scale decisions
Paragon= what is good for the galaxy as a whole
Renegade= what is good for Humanity while in particular
smaller decisions
Paragon=stereotype good
Renegade=stereotype bad

That tranquil/frantic crap is an asspull

Well, what you say does not contradict to what I say. The key word in your description is "stereotype".
First the "what is good for galaxy as a whole" falls well within the borders of "stereotype good", 'cause "what is good for Humanity while in particular" is associated with xenophobia, racism, etc., which is "stereotype bad".

So you say:

Paragon=stereotype good
Renegade=stereotype bad

I say:

Acting stereotypically "good" results in easy conscience, as the actor effectively upholds his/her self-esteem as a "good" person. Hence tranquility.

Acting stereotypically "bad" results in inner emotional confict, as the actor is necessarily aware that his/her actions contradict the social stereotype of "good". And it doesn't really matter if the renegade action is taken out of belief in some ideal, pure situational necessity, or "just  for the hell of it". The conflict is there. Hence frantic emotions. Hence scars.

Call it an asspull, if you wish. I call it psychology.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 05 mars 2010 - 10:00 .

[kennyme2]

No

[GenericPlayer2]

JeanLuc761 wrote...

Hmm, interesting way of looking at it.  I suppose it really does come down to whether or not you value your friendship/romance with Tali more than you value telling the out-and-out truth.  On the flip side, Admiral Xen finds out anyway so it almost feels like the whole thing is moot.

To each their own then but I must say I'm impressed that a decision in a videogame merits this kind of discussion.  (I'll hide the evidence every single time:whistle:)

The way I see it, Shep at this point has no evidence of Reapers. He has to trust that his actions and credibility will prompt people to act against a threat he knows to be true. They will board that ship, they will piece together what happened, and Shep will lose credibility with at least one or more admirals. I am certain that is not how BW will view the story or the follow up in ME3, but that is how I view it.

[redguppie]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

[
Ha. No way a person, that addresses a 24 year old engineer as "Ma'am" becomes an Admiral ahead of that 24 year old engineer.

So you say:

Paragon=stereotype good
Renegade=stereotype bad

I say:

Acting stereotypically "good" results in easy conscience, as the actor effectively upholds his/her self-esteem as a "good" person. Hence tranquility.


Call it an asspull, if you wish. I call it psychology.

I've known Colenels who address 20 year olds as maam.  It's a form of address usually used to address someone with respect.  Hell my Grandfather called any women Ma'am if they weren't close family or friends.  even the ones that worked for him.  Kal actually has experience in there military structure.  Were as she was being protected by the marines, not fighting with them.  He also has a excellent head on his shoulders and an ability to understand the logistic of a fight, something tali doesn't have( conversation on a geth war).  Yea he has a better chance.
She is an engineer
he is a soldier
which one would be a better leader of their military, the one with experience in their military.

She has done some great things for their people, but she always did them on her own or with Shepard.  That does not give her experience in commanding, figuring logistics, tactics, and stategy.  Admiral is more than a figurehead.

Thanks for skipping what I said and cherrypicking what to reply to

I'll go back to my original quote

If I was to hazard a guess it isn't good and bad
large scale decisions
Paragon= what is good for the galaxy as a whole
Renegade= what is good for Humanity while in particular
In this way TIM would be renegade- his focus is on humanities good not the whole galaxy= selfish
keeping the base-good for humanity not garenteed to be benificial for the rest of the galaxy in the long run
letting the council die- good for humanity, not garenteed to be benificial to the rest of the galaxy


smaller decisions
Paragon=stereotype good
Renegade=stereotype bad

That tranquil/frantic crap is an asspull

[redguppie]

GenericPlayer2 wrote...


The way I see it, Shep at this point has no evidence of Reapers. He has to trust that his actions and credibility will prompt people to act against a threat he knows to be true. They will board that ship, they will piece together what happened, and Shep will lose credibility with at least one or more admirals. I am certain that is not how BW will view the story or the follow up in ME3, but that is how I view it.

These people were also friends with The man who's credibility you just destroyed.  And because of your actions their entire flotilla was fractured.  If that were to happen to you would you view Shepards actions with happy thoughts? The only friend you gain out of that action is the admiral who liked to disect her dolls.    

[Missouri Tigers]

I wish I could kill her.  Tali is an awful character.  Her story is that her dad is famous and she researches stuff, no cool backrounds or anything.  She lives in her suit and her people are among the stupidest to ever live.  

[GenericPlayer2]

redguppie wrote...

That tranquil/frantic crap is an asspull

Isn't that 'asspull' just about what Chakwas says in the Med bay upgrade e-mail?

[GenericPlayer2]

redguppie wrote...

These people were also friends with The man who's credibility you just destroyed.  And because of your actions their entire flotilla was fractured.  If that were to happen to you would you view Shepards actions with happy thoughts? The only friend you gain out of that action is the admiral who liked to disect her dolls.    

Not true. Admiral Raan and Qwib Qwib were both quite pleased with the outcome. Darp'Xen is quite furious the experiments were public. Try talking to her after the trial.

Modifié par GenericPlayer2, 05 mars 2010 - 10:36 .

[CmdrFenix83]

GenericPlayer2 wrote...

Wow, telling the truth at trial is now being considered evil for the sake of evil, or being a douche bag. If thats the case, then the Turian councilor is a saint.

What do you gain from hiding the truth? The loyalty of an needy, immature Quarian? Continued cover-ups in a fleet that is lying to itself? Tell me, did you guys who gained her loyalty lie about her saving the Citadel from the Geth? Because, you know, it was Shepard who saved the Citadel, not Tali.

I'll repeat again, if this was a sensitive case where the facts may have political implications, where moral norms may not apply, then the trial should not have been public. That is on their heads.

The point was the Admiralty Board wanted to spread their political agenda, so they wanted the crowd around to try and influence them.  The 'truth' as you call it, doesn't help anyone other than a personal sense of moral code.  The blue/red options don't even lie about the evidence, they simply ignore it and find a workaround for calling them out on the farce that the trial is.  Han'Garrel even calls you on this after the trial. 

Shepard says, "I never said we found any evidence on the Alarei."

Han'Garrel responds, "I noticed that."

You call putting credit on Tali's shoulders a lie, but my Shepard had her at his side the entire game.  If it weren't for her expertise with dealing with that Geth's memory core, Saren would have been a Spectre still, and you would have no legs to stand on here.  Saren would have won.  Without her, your mission would have failed, and Sovereign would have opened the relay.  Shepard may lead the team, but it's still a team, everyone deserves credit.  I was quite impressed with her shotgun work on my last ME1 playthrough, due to different round types, I could see she was killing almost as many as I was myself.

The final decision comes down to:  Do you help a friend, or screw her over.  Frankly, if you didn't care for her, why did you recruit her?  Or why did you bother with her loyalty mission?  She didn't even ask you to take her to the Fleet, just mentions that they're slapping her with a treason charge and that she's scared.  You decided to go help her, then just stabbed her in the back.  If you don't see why this is Renegade, then I suppose there's no more point to this discussion.

Edit:  I suppose Renegade is the wrong word here.  Douche is the word that should be there instead.

Modifié par CmdrFenix83, 05 mars 2010 - 10:43 .

[CmdrFenix83]

Missouri Tigers wrote...

I wish I could kill her.  Tali is an awful character.  Her story is that her dad is famous and she researches stuff, no cool backrounds or anything.  She lives in her suit and her people are among the stupidest to ever live.  

So leave her on Haestrom to die to the Geth then, if you never liked her, why are you recruiting her and then helping her with her problems?

[Zulu_DFA]

GenericPlayer2 wrote...

redguppie wrote...

That tranquil/frantic crap is an asspull

Isn't that 'asspull' just about what Chakwas says in the Med bay upgrade e-mail?

Who cares what a cranky old drunkard lady thinks about their paragon score?

[GenericPlayer2]

I recruited her for the 2 upgrades and 2 weapons you find on that missio. But you are right about the trial, I always revealed the evidence until 2 playthrough's ago, when I stopped going to the trial altogether. Between her recruitment mission and loyalty missions you get 4 upgrades, 2 new weapons and an endgame ship upgrade. I haven't done an audit of the other characters, but BW designed the game so that it would be very difficult to not pick her up. Compare that to Samara, where you get 2 upgrades, 1 weapon. I am not counting the fuel cell upgrade since that does not impact final mission.

Modifié par GenericPlayer2, 05 mars 2010 - 10:53 .