268 réponses à ce sujet

[CmdrFenix83]

GenericPlayer2 wrote...

I recruited her for the 2 upgrades and 2 weapons you find on that missio. But you are right about the trial, I always revealed the evidence until 2 playthrough's ago, when I stopped going to the trial altogether. Between her recruitment mission and loyalty missions you get 4 upgrades, 2 new weapons and an endgame ship upgrade. I haven't done an audit of the other characters, but BW designed the game so that it would be very difficult to not pick her up.

So for metagame reasons.  Conversation's over then.  G'day.

[thedoncarnage]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

The final decision comes down to:  Do you help a friend, or screw her over.  Frankly, if you didn't care for her, why did you recruit her?  Or why did you bother with her loyalty mission?  She didn't even ask you to take her to the Fleet, just mentions that they're slapping her with a treason charge and that she's scared.  You decided to go help her, then just stabbed her in the back.  If you don't see why this is Renegade, then I suppose there's no more point to this discussion.

Edit:  I suppose Renegade is the wrong word here.  Douche is the word that should be there instead.

You're looking at this the wrong way for two reasons:

1) You go to the fleet to clear Tali's name. By turning over the evidence you do exactly that. She may be mad at you, but she's still innocent in the eyes of the court and her people.

2) By refusing to turn over the evidence you are COVERING UP THE ACTIONS OF A WAR CRIMINAL. How is that Paragon?

Please keep in mind I am not saying one path is right or wrong. All I'm doing here is debating semantics. If you want to be Tali's friend and cover up the evidence, then fine go ahead and do it. But this is an instance where the Devs' labeling of paragon and renegade is simply wrong.

A good cop would never cover up evidence for their friend, regardless of the crime. Think of it that way.

The underlying problem here is that Bioware has written Paragon dialogue to essentially be the "happy ending" choice no matter what the issue is. But real life is not like that. Sometimes to have a happy ending you need to break some rules. That's what renegade is supposed to be about. But that's not how it was implemented in the game.

Modifié par thedoncarnage, 05 mars 2010 - 11:08 .

[Internet Kraken]

GenericPlayer2 wrote...

redguppie wrote...

That tranquil/frantic crap is an asspull

Isn't that 'asspull' just about what Chakwas says in the Med bay upgrade e-mail?

Except it's still crap becuase, as I pointed out, there are plenty of paragon actions that are frantic and renegade options that are tranquil.

[GenericPlayer2]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

GenericPlayer2 wrote...

I recruited her for the 2 upgrades and 2 weapons you find on that missio. But you are right about the trial, I always revealed the evidence until 2 playthrough's ago, when I stopped going to the trial altogether. Between her recruitment mission and loyalty missions you get 4 upgrades, 2 new weapons and an endgame ship upgrade. I haven't done an audit of the other characters, but BW designed the game so that it would be very difficult to not pick her up.

So for metagame reasons.  Conversation's over then.  G'day.

I do the mission for the upgrades, the outcome I select is what I think should be done. If I was metagaming the trial outcome I would have picked the red/blue options (which are available to me), since that provides the BW approved outcome.

[CmdrFenix83]

thedoncarnage wrote...

You're looking at this the wrong way for two reasons:

1) You go to the fleet to clear Tali's name. By turning over the evidence you do exactly that. She may be mad at you, but she's still innocent in the eyes of the court and her people.

2) By refusing to turn over the evidence you are COVERING UP THE ACTIONS OF A WAR CRIMINAL. How is that Paragon?

Please keep in mind I am not saying one path is right or wrong. All I'm doing here is debating semantics. If you want to be Tali's friend and cover up the evidence, then fine go ahead and do it. But this is an instance where the Devs' labeling of paragon and renegade is simply wrong.

A good cop would never cover up evidence for their friend, regardless of the crime. Think of it that way.

I don't have to destroy a friend's relative publicly to help her.  I didn't go to clear her name.  I went to help her, period.  She's an individual with her own thoughts and feelings.  If she's willing to take exile to spare his name, that's her choice.  You're representing her in the trial.  That means you're supposed to defend her to the best of your ability without going against her wishes.  This is the same as the Sunry trial from KotOR mentioned earlier.  You aren't supposed to betray your client.

The Paragon/Renegade system isn't really able to be defined by any form of morality or justice code, it's just what the Dev's felt each actions should be.  It's also worth noting, that the largest Paragon and Renegade gains from this trial, are both done by calling the Admirals out on their BS. 

You're not a cop in this scene, you're acting as her lawyer.  Rael is dead.  He paid for his crimes.  What does it help to slander a dead hero in front of his people?  True or not, that's all revealing the evidence does.  Even if the paragon response had led to her exile, Tali made the choice herself, and as her representation, it's Shepard's job to support it.

[CmdrFenix83]

GenericPlayer2 wrote...

I do the mission for the upgrades, the outcome I select is what I think should be done. If I was metagaming the trial outcome I would have picked the red/blue options (which are available to me), since that provides the BW approved outcome.

You did it for loot.  That's metagaming.  You knew upgrades were there, and decided you would do something out of your character's personality to go pick up a character you deem useless and hate.  Your opinion after that cannot be based on in-character, as you've destroyed your argument already.  If you weren't metagaming, she wouldn't even be on your squad, and the trial wouldn't even exist for you.  G'day.

[GenericPlayer2]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

You're not a cop in this scene, you're acting as her lawyer.  Rael is dead.  He paid for his crimes.  What does it help to slander a dead hero in front of his people?  True or not, that's all revealing the evidence does.  Even if the paragon response had led to her exile, Tali made the choice herself, and as her representation, it's Shepard's job to support it.

Shepards job was to get her to the trial on time. Its the Admirals who declared her persona non grata and forced you into that position. Shepard is not responsible for Rael's actions. Once you have cleared the ship, the Quarians will find out what happened eventually, if their skill with recovering data is any indication. You can stand there and make up lies like Tali saving the citadel from the Geth, or you can reveal what sick experiments were really going on. Shepard is not a Quarian Admiral, what the fleet does with the information is not his responsibility. He was asked to investigate, and he presented the results. To do anything else means that you value Tali's emotions before your duty. I respect anyone who gets her exiled instead. But most people here want her to have her cake and eat it too - no exile and no accountability for her father who got everyone on the Alarei killed and put everyone at risk.

[Zulu_DFA]

Internet Kraken wrote...

GenericPlayer2 wrote...

redguppie wrote...

That tranquil/frantic crap is an asspull

Isn't that 'asspull' just about what Chakwas says in the Med bay upgrade e-mail?

Except it's still crap becuase, as I pointed out, there are plenty of paragon actions that are frantic and renegade options that are tranquil.

Except that Dr. Chakwas's e-mail is practically an official explanation by BioWare of the facial scars and what the paragon/renegade system is about.

[cipher_Cero]

thedoncarnage wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

The final decision comes down to:  Do you help a friend, or screw her over.  Frankly, if you didn't care for her, why did you recruit her?  Or why did you bother with her loyalty mission?  She didn't even ask you to take her to the Fleet, just mentions that they're slapping her with a treason charge and that she's scared.  You decided to go help her, then just stabbed her in the back.  If you don't see why this is Renegade, then I suppose there's no more point to this discussion.

Edit:  I suppose Renegade is the wrong word here.  Douche is the word that should be there instead.

You're looking at this the wrong way for two reasons:

1) You go to the fleet to clear Tali's name. By turning over the evidence you do exactly that. She may be mad at you, but she's still innocent in the eyes of the court and her people.

2) By refusing to turn over the evidence you are COVERING UP THE ACTIONS OF A WAR CRIMINAL. How is that Paragon?

Please keep in mind I am not saying one path is right or wrong. All I'm doing here is debating semantics. If you want to be Tali's friend and cover up the evidence, then fine go ahead and do it. But this is an instance where the Devs' labeling of paragon and renegade is simply wrong.

A good cop would never cover up evidence for their friend, regardless of the crime. Think of it that way.

The underlying problem here is that Bioware has written Paragon dialogue to essentially be the "happy ending" choice no matter what the issue is. But real life is not like that. Sometimes to have a happy ending you need to break some rules. That's what renegade is supposed to be about. But that's not how it was implemented in the game.

I'm still iffy on what makes Rael'Zorah a war criminal. I'm not saying I disagree or agree, but there are several things here that complicate that. A war crime is defined as the murder and ill-treatment of prisoners of war.

1) The geth used for experiments were not prisoners. They were disabled components that were repaired, reactivated, and networked.
2) Geth (particularly heretics) do not sense trauma, pain, or any sort of emotion. They also have no sense of ethics or morals, which would render them completely unaffected to their plight.
3) The shared memories of geth/heretics prevents them from going through any sort of "death" provided they were ever connected to the network. The platform housing those components simply gets destroyed, but an infinite number of copies can be made of whatever that geth recorded.

In effect, you're performing weapons tests on a somewhat more capable LOKI mech that never actually dies or gets hurt.

What Rael'Zorah is clearly guilty of is activating geth while in close proximity to the Migrant Fleet, which is of course dangerous. That's what Tali would have been charged of, and that's what Rael'Zorah winds up being convicted with.

[Internet Kraken]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Internet Kraken wrote...

GenericPlayer2 wrote...

redguppie wrote...

That tranquil/frantic crap is an asspull

Isn't that 'asspull' just about what Chakwas says in the Med bay upgrade e-mail?

Except it's still crap becuase, as I pointed out, there are plenty of paragon actions that are frantic and renegade options that are tranquil.

Except that Dr. Chakwas's e-mail is practically an official explanation by BioWare of the facial scars and what the paragon/renegade system is about.

Except that, once again, it's crap. Once you actually look at the paragon and renegade choices, you realize that the explanation for the facial scarring is blatantly wrong.So even if that is an offical explanation, it holds no consistency throughout the game and doesn't even matter.

Rant all you want about this tranquil/frantic system. It won't change the fact that upon examining the game's choices, it is simply not true.

Modifié par Internet Kraken, 05 mars 2010 - 11:23 .

[CmdrFenix83]

GenericPlayer2 wrote...

Shepards job was to get her to the trial on time. Its the Admirals who declared her persona non grata and forced you into that position. Shepard is not responsible for Rael's actions. Once you have cleared the ship, the Quarians will find out what happened eventually, if their skill with recovering data is any indication. You can stand there and make up lies like Tali saving the citadel from the Geth, or you can reveal what sick experiments were really going on. Shepard is not a Quarian Admiral, what the fleet does with the information is not his responsibility. He was asked to investigate, and he presented the results. To do anything else means that you value Tali's emotions before your duty. I respect anyone who gets her exiled instead. But most people here want her to have her cake and eat it too - no exile and no accountability for her father who got everyone on the Alarei killed and put everyone at risk.

Again, you're making crap up on the basis that your Shepard does *everything* by himself.  I've already made my point there. 

I said...

You call putting credit on Tali's shoulders a lie, but my Shepard had
her at his side the entire game.  If it weren't for her expertise with
dealing with that Geth's memory core, Saren would have been a Spectre
still, and you would have no legs to stand on here.  Saren would have
won.  Without her, your mission would have failed, and Sovereign would
have opened the relay.  Shepard may lead the team, but it's still a
team, everyone deserves credit.  I was quite impressed with her shotgun
work on my last ME1 playthrough, due to different round types, I could
see she was killing almost as many as I was myself.

It's not my duty to be sure a well-respected and good man gets posthumusly destroyed for a mistake he made.  He's dead.  He's already paid the price for his mistake.  Tali's willing to accept exile in exchange for protecting the good man her father was.  You're her representation, it's your job to comply.  If the option to call the Admiral's political BS out wasn't there, I would have let her get exiled, per her wishes.  I took her there to help her, not to stab her in the back.

As far as your 'respect', I personally don't want or need it.  Your gaming is based on 'what upgrades are around' and not your character, and you really have no right to state what's 'right' or 'wrong' in-character when you don't even play yours.

[redguppie]

GenericPlayer2 wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

You're not a cop in this scene, you're acting as her lawyer.  Rael is dead.  He paid for his crimes.  What does it help to slander a dead hero in front of his people?  True or not, that's all revealing the evidence does.  Even if the paragon response had led to her exile, Tali made the choice herself, and as her representation, it's Shepard's job to support it.

Shepards job was to get her to the trial on time. Its the Admirals who declared her persona non grata and forced you into that position. Shepard is not responsible for Rael's actions. Once you have cleared the ship, the Quarians will find out what happened eventually, if their skill with recovering data is any indication. You can stand there and make up lies like Tali saving the citadel from the Geth, or you can reveal what sick experiments were really going on. Shepard is not a Quarian Admiral, what the fleet does with the information is not his responsibility. He was asked to investigate, and he presented the results. To do anything else means that you value Tali's emotions before your duty. I respect anyone who gets her exiled instead. But most people here want her to have her cake and eat it too - no exile and no accountability for her father who got everyone on the Alarei killed and put everyone at risk.

But he is responsible for his actions.  And as long as Tali is a part of your crew she is your responsiblity that is just the way being a commanding officer is, being accountable for the welfare of those serving under you.  If you don't want her on your crew she doesn't have to be.  If you don't want her loyal you don't have to do her mission.  But By doing all that you accept responsiblity for what your actions cause to a member of your crew.  you did an unnessessary action which brought no benefit to your crew other than create strife and contention.  You are going on an incredibly dangerous mission knowing that a Squadmember has a serious grudge against you. That isn't the wisest choice to make. 

Your duty is to Your crew, not the Quarians. And her father is dead it's hard to make it more accountable.

[Zulu_DFA]

Internet Kraken wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Internet Kraken wrote...

GenericPlayer2 wrote...

redguppie wrote...

That tranquil/frantic crap is an asspull

Isn't that 'asspull' just about what Chakwas says in the Med bay upgrade e-mail?

Except it's still crap becuase, as I pointed out, there are plenty of paragon actions that are frantic and renegade options that are tranquil.

Except that Dr. Chakwas's e-mail is practically an official explanation by BioWare of the facial scars and what the paragon/renegade system is about.

Except that, once again, it's crap. Once you actually look at the paragon and renegade choices, you realize that the explanation for the facial scarring is blatantly wrong.So even if that is an offical explanation, it holds no consistency throughout the game and doesn't even matter.

Rant all you want about this tranquil/frantic system. It won't change the fact that upon examining the game's choices, it is simply not true.

Rant all you want about truth and consistensy throughout the game, it's still the best explantaion, just because it's the in-game explanation and a good chance is that it literally reproduces the development documentation of ME2, pinned at every BW writer's workplace.

[Never-Red]

I don't even think about the facial scars story wise I just consider it biowares need to add KOTOR-esque darkside changes.

[Zulu_DFA]

redguppie wrote...

Your duty is to Your crew, not the Quarians. And her father is dead it's hard to make it more accountable.

Your duty is to save the freaking Galaxy (and that covers your crew too), and not some dead person's reputation, just because it would please one of the crewmembers (that was shoven down Shepard's throat by BioWare, for the sole reason that this crewmember has a crowd of obsessed fans in real life.)

[Ragnarok Ekul]

I would, just for the fun of it, and that exquisite moment :PP

[Never-Red]

Ive actually made sure Tali is dead >_>

[CmdrFenix83]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

redguppie wrote...

Your duty is to Your crew, not the Quarians. And her father is dead it's hard to make it more accountable.

Your duty is to save the freaking Galaxy (and that covers your crew too), and not some dead person's reputation, just because it would please one of the crewmembers (that was shoven down Shepard's throat by BioWare, for the sole reason that this crewmember has a crowd of obsessed fans in real life.)

Why did you bother recruiting her then?  You're completely capable of skipping her if you don't want her.  It would be more relevant to say Mordin/Garrus/Jack/Miranda/Jacob are shoved down your throat, as you have zero choice on whether or not to recruit them.  I'd be giddie if I could tell Miranda to take a short walk out the airlock, or even just dump her ass on Omega.  She's a ****, and I cannot stand hearing her injecting her BS everywhere. 

Tali doesn't say a single word to you if you don't go looking for her.  She doesn't force herself into meetings, doesn't constantly complain about everything(Grunt's tank, Legion, the crew being abducted by Collector's, etc).  You've got a *very* odd idea of what being "shoved down your throat" means.

[redguppie]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

redguppie wrote...

Your duty is to Your crew, not the Quarians. And her father is dead it's hard to make it more accountable.

Your duty is to save the freaking Galaxy (and that covers your crew too), and not some dead person's reputation, just because it would please one of the crewmembers (that was shoven down Shepard's throat by BioWare, for the sole reason that this crewmember has a crowd of obsessed fans in real life.)

On the main mission I would agree with you, but this is a loyalty mission we are talking about.  You do these as a favor to your crew.  And since your crew is REQUIRED to help you save the GALAXY it's a good idea to help them when you can as well.

And I wish people would quit with the crying about forcing of characters down someones throats.     The only people you had to recruit was the first four, and none of them are being discussed her. 

P.S. Before talking about others obsessions, maybe you should deal with your own hatreds and prejudices before trying to insult people over a video game forum.  Because your obsessions shine through in just about every comment you make

[thedoncarnage]

@cipher_Cero

It's good you brought this up because I've seen this debate tossed around in other threads. This is a little off topic, but since you seem a pretty civil dude I'll bite.

cipher_Cero wrote...

I'm still iffy on what makes Rael'Zorah a war criminal. I'm not saying I disagree or agree, but there are several things here that complicate that. A war crime is defined as the murder and ill-treatment of prisoners of war.

1) The geth used for experiments were not prisoners. They were disabled components that were repaired, reactivated, and networked.

By networking the reanimated geth the quarian scientists made them sentient again. Self aware. Capable of free will. They were performing experiments on sentient beings against their will.

2) Geth (particularly heretics) do not sense trauma, pain, or any sort of emotion. They also have no sense of ethics or morals, which would render them completely unaffected to their plight.

While it's true they don't sense pain the geth do have the other characteristics you listed. Conversations with Legion demonstrate the geth have a sense of morality and ethics, albiet their social norms are very alien to those of us organics. The geth ideals of self-determination are an example of this. As for emotion... that's more tricky. I think it's implied by Legion's dialogue about his N7 armor that he is beginning to evolve emotions but doesn't know it yet. But that's just my interpretation.

3) The shared memories of geth/heretics prevents them from going through any sort of "death" provided they were ever connected to the network. The platform housing those components simply gets destroyed, but an infinite number of copies can be made of whatever that geth recorded.

In effect, you're performing weapons tests on a somewhat more capable LOKI mech that never actually dies or gets hurt.

Although not much has been revealed about how the Geth interact with each other over interstellar distances I do think destruction = death for most platforms. Legion says that it takes a conscious effort for him to connect to the rest of his people (hence why he needs EDI's assistance when downloading data.) With that taken into account, if Legion were to be destroyed while not uplinked I think he would be permanently dead. Likewise Legion pointed out that when Shepard destroyed the data hub "cities" on Virmire he was actually killing thousands of heretics.

If a geth expert here thinks I'm wrong please feel free to correct me.

[Internet Kraken]

Zulu_DFA wrote...



Rant all you want about truth and consistensy throughout the game, it's still the best explantaion, just because it's the in-game explanation and a good chance is that it literally reproduces the development documentation of ME2, pinned at every BW writer's workplace.

See, I'm not the one who is ranting. I have evidence to back up my position. Clear proof from the game that these decisions are not based on a tranquil/frantic system. Your only evidence is one small email from Chawkwas that was probably thrown together in a haste to have weak justification for Shepard's appearance changing based on his actions. And this evidence doesn't hold up when compared to all of the actions in the game that clearly contradict it.



It is not the best explanation since it does not hold up at all. Less than an hour into the game you can make choices that contradict it. You're going to have to do better to convince me that BioWare's writers actually designed these choices around a tranquil/frantic system.

[Never-Red]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Tali doesn't say a single word to you if you don't go looking for her.  She doesn't force herself into meetings, doesn't constantly complain about everything(Grunt's tank, Legion, the crew being abducted by Collector's, etc).  You've got a *very* odd idea of what being "shoved down your throat" means.

aha lies. you bump into her on your first cerberus mission.

[CmdrFenix83]

Never-Red wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Tali doesn't say a single word to you if you don't go looking for her.  She doesn't force herself into meetings, doesn't constantly complain about everything(Grunt's tank, Legion, the crew being abducted by Collector's, etc).  You've got a *very* odd idea of what being "shoved down your throat" means.

aha lies. you bump into her on your first cerberus mission.

I meant after recruiting her.    Yes, you have a point, you encounter her, once.  You never have to see her again.  Do I get that luxery with Miranda?  No.  Deal.

[DarkNova50]

From a realistic standpoint, I think I'd stand by Tali. After all, it's her father, and her people...best let her decide what her fate should be.

Fortunately, in a world where a charismatic Shepard's words are better than proof, such a decision isn't needed!

...

Did anybody else find those persuasion options incredibly vapid?

[Shadowrun1177]

Even on my renegade play through I just couldn't bring myself to give the evidence over something about what Tali already suffered through just made me not want to have her suffer more. So I just used the renegade option to talk them down.