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Whats with the adult male population???


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#51
Commander Shepard

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HypesterHypester wrote...

Jep13 wrote...

Its not rocket science. It costs ressources to have kids and all genders in a game. We're not looking at reflections of reality, we're looking at video games. There is no need for children to be present in what limited portions of Mass Effect we visit, and unless the story requires it, there is no sense in putting costly ressources to model, voice, animate, and texture female genders or children.

Dev's don't pull these things out of their collective butts in a minute. It takes time and ressources, and both of these cost money. Do you want to start paying 80$-100$ for video games because developpers are bursting their budgets working on senseless stuff for they sake your goram picky sense of immersion?

Suspending your sense of disbelief would serve you well when playing a VIDEO GAME.


We realize that it's more expensive to make a more believable universe, however, I think you're dramatically overestimating the cost here . Every addition to the game is not a 'budget  breaker.' It requires new models, yeah, so did adding Drell, male Quarians and every single squad member is a brand new model too. New animations, new textures included.  It's really not that much of a challenge, unless you think the game went up in price when the number of models from ME1 to ME2 doubled?   And paying for child and female voice actors is usually cheaper than paying for male ones, so money would actually be saved on that front.


The REAL hurdle, I think is that it takes quite a bit of design skills to make women that seem
Turian or Salarian that are not utterly unattractive. Design that is not essential to the story, and can be written around if the development cycle is pressed for time, which is what Bioware has chosen to do.  It's not a decision I approve of, but I'm not going to excuse it with flimsy money arguments, but rather, accept it for what it is: a design choice, made under a time table.

Krogan would be even a harder stretch, and I'd think they'd got the 'hot but ugly' style ala Klingon women of star trek. It'd be interesting if Krogan females had a much different body shape than their males, not that it should be hourglass, but significantly different could be most interesting.

Kids are essential to the storyline in Mass Effect, they are just kept off camera, again, a design choice. Oriana's story would have been much more powerful if she had been young enough to be shorter than everyone else, making it clear that this a vulnerable influencable character, not a grown woman who may even be able to handle herself. Also, notice none of the characters have a 'look down and talk' animation to conversate with kids, which would likely be the biggest technical hurdle, rather than creating a new model. (I'm going to go back and check to see what animation is used to talk with Cpt. Bailey in Citadel in ME2). Regardless, having one in a loyalty mission or something could be very nice, at least a human kid.  40 year old Asari are kids to them, as for the rest, I find it unlikely that we'll have a real need for a Salarian kid, or a Turian kid, y'know?


Very very very well said!

#52
Commander Shepard

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Lord Coake wrote...

Dethateer wrote...

Didn't someone in the US make a law against kids appearing in violent games or something like that?


Hell no.  A stunt like that would never fly here.  It'd end up in a court room inside a week, with the judge telling the holophobic soccer mom brigade to stop wasting his time.


haha

#53
DPSSOC

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Lord Coake wrote...

Dethateer wrote...

Didn't someone in the US make a law against kids appearing in violent games or something like that?


Hell no.  A stunt like that would never fly here.  It'd end up in a court room inside a week, with the judge telling the holophobic soccer mom brigade to stop wasting his time.


You mean the same judges who found in favour of a woman who sued McDonalds for not letting her know her coffee was hot?  The same US that demanded, because people couldn't be bothered to check their tires and inevitably got into accidents and died when their tires blew, that car manufacturers put an idiot light in to let people know when they need to air up their tires?

I somehow lack faith in their ability to tell stupid people to stop being stupid.

With the exception of Turians and Batarians we're given reasons why there are no female aliens.

Krogan - few in number kept on Tuchanka to breed
Salarians - few in number stay on the homeworld to rule and, presumably, breed
Hanar - could you honestly tell the difference
Elcor - again

As for children I challenge you to name 1 area in Mass Effect 1 or 2 (haven't played 2 so admittedly I'm at a disadvantage) that strikes you as an appropriate place for children.

#54
HypesterHypester

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tyddrwsau wrote...

HypesterHypester wrote...
Yes, I'm defending chauvanism cuz I want to see hot alien chicks. Just give me my Renegade points.


I'm afraid I'm on a totally different side of that issue. ;)

I am completely enthusiastic about science fiction's potential for envisioning truly alien organisms. We may continue to create (mostly) bipedal humanoids with that potential, but I'd still rather they not be space primates with scaley accessories. My favourite aliens in Mass Effect are the ones that vary most from a human-based design: hanar, elcor, keepers, rachni and I'll toss in the volus because they may be bipeds but they're ammonia breathers.

I'd like to see different sexes of aliens implemented or to have it established simply that superficially evident sexual dimorphism is not present in a given species and therefore the same models work for male/female: krogan or drell would work well here... I'd love it if female salarians were only different by being larger and tougher than males (although that too projects an assumed similarity with some Terrestrial amphibians). If BioWare does the work to implement the absent alien females though, I certainly hope they don't make them resemble humans. For humans, asari and quarians to all have the female sex wide-hipped with two chest-mounted mammaries is enough!

Drawing further obvious physical distinctions between humans and the fictional races of the galaxy would also underscore how special the characters in the human-alien romances consider each other to be: "Your species is freaky strange, dear, but I love you anyway."

Children too would require design consideration for anything but human children. What are the developmental stages of juevenile drell, krogan, and turians?


My, you must have spared a lot of lives, because I find myself swayed! I could see altered male-female paradigms for some of the species being pretty awesome.  I don't really have a favorite in ME as is, none of them really intrigues me, but a more physical female Salarian, for instance sounds cool. I don't think they need to or should go so far as to have some kind of abstract based-on-pure-theory female motif, especially for a bipedal romanceable species.  If a Drell or Turian is attracted to FemShep, then there must be some commonalities between females of those species.  This is not 'realistic,' it's simply storytelling.  With Hanar, Elcor, even Salarians, Krogans and Volus, you can go kind of crazy, but I do think the Drell and Turians need "chest-mounted mammaries."  -shrug-

#55
EmperorSahlertz

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DPSSOC wrote...
As for children I challenge you to name 1 area in Mass Effect 1 or 2 (haven't played 2 so admittedly I'm at a disadvantage) that strikes you as an appropriate place for children.

What? You don't think it is appropriate to take children Threser Maw hunting?

#56
Collider

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Commander Shepard wrote...
There is evidence of kids on the zakera ward (duct rats Bailey talks about), and Omega (the girl that Morinth killed)

Are those kids or are those teenagers and young adults? I'm pretty sure that also they were described to be out of the way and largely forgotten.

#57
Collider

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DPSSOC wrote...
(haven't played 2 so admittedly I'm at a disadvantage)

Wtf? Go play it naow!

#58
Commander Shepard

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[/quote]


As for children I challenge you to name 1 area in Mass Effect 1 or 2 (haven't played 2 so admittedly I'm at a disadvantage) that strikes you as an appropriate place for children.[/quote]

There is evidence of kids on the zakera ward (duct rats Bailey talks
about), and Omega (the girl that Morinth killed). (both from mass effect 2). For mass effect 1, the presidium (there are homes and hotels on there), the wards, im sure some bussiness people working on Noveria could possibly have children, Zus hope colony would be a good place, Eden Prime was a human colony that no doubt had kids (couldve found one running from geth or something) You challenged me to name 1 and I named 7.

#59
Impala

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Collider wrote...

I think it also has to be said the locations that children could possibly be in in ME2.
Citadel - Zakera Ward isn't the safest place in the Citadel, it is actually among the most dangerous if I recall.
Omega - Self explanatory.
Illium - Primarily a business world. Asari live for a 1000 years so the likelihood of seeing Asari children is much less.

All of these are pretty bad reasons...I mean kids have lived in the slums forever. There have always been kids in bad neighborhoods throughout the history of Earth.

Omega...there was families there, and we already had a mission with a girl who grew up there.

For the asari...that doesn't make any sense. There would be the same exact ratio if the asari lived 100 years. It is smaller due to the fact that asari probably reach maturity in a quicker percentage of their lifespan than humans though.

Also to the guy above me. You realize just how ridiculous your post is right? You're telling me all the families on the citadel and on omega just ship their kids off or don't have them period? Are the ghetto parts of Oakland and Compton appropriate places to raise a kid? No..they're not, but people still raise them there because they have no choice. People aren't just not going to have a child because they don't live in the best area.

Not to mention there has to be peaceful parts of the Citadel. You think the most important ship on the galaxy is dangerous everywhere? The Citadel looks like a fine place to raise a child to me. Just because certain areas of it have criminals does not mean anything.

Edit: You were responding to somoene else. my post is meant for the person who asked to name 1 place that is safe for children.

Modifié par Impala, 05 mars 2010 - 07:06 .


#60
AlanC9

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amrose2 wrote...

There is no such law that kids can't be depicted in violence and no law that they cannot be killable.

The Witcher has killable children.


Really? Where? I don't remember them. Might be only the North American version, anyway --the EU does have regulations on this sort of thing. See, for instance, the infamous Fallout 2 issues. Though I'm not sure these are actual laws. The issue might be with the local equivalent of the ESRB. A rating the publisher can't sell the game with is effectively a ban anyway.

Edit: but this has nothing at all to do with ME, since the game system doesn't let you harm noncombatants even if you want to

Hell, Dante's Inferno has demon babies.


Not humans, so don't count.

Modifié par AlanC9, 05 mars 2010 - 07:09 .


#61
DPSSOC

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Collider wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...
(haven't played 2 so admittedly I'm at a disadvantage)

Wtf? Go play it naow!


Wish I could, don't own it yet, I is poor.

Commander Shepard wrote...
For mass effect 1, the presidium (there are homes and hotels on there),

You mean the Presidium where the diplomatic embassies, financial district, and brothel (Shaira's) are?  I'm sure there are children on the Citadel but that's one spot I wouldn't expect the wee ones to be running around.

Commander Shepard wrote...
the wards,

 
Where?  The weapons market, police station, casino, or strip club?

Commander Shepard wrote...
im sure some bussiness people working on Noveria could possibly have children,

 
And I'm sure they'd be in the residences we're not shown unless it's take your kid to work day.

#62
MagusDK

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Krogan female - There is a Krogan Female Emissary you can talk to by the Rite of Passage quest giver. That one may be female, she dresses in a feminine way at least...pretty sure it would be hard for non-Krogan to tell with their species.



If Salarian females are politicians, then doesn't that mean the Salarian on the Council is female? I don't believe I've heard that member referred to as he or she for that matter.

#63
Impala

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DPSSOC wrote...

Collider wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...
(haven't played 2 so admittedly I'm at a disadvantage)

Wtf? Go play it naow!


Wish I could, don't own it yet, I is poor.

Commander Shepard wrote...
For mass effect 1, the presidium (there are homes and hotels on there),

You mean the Presidium where the diplomatic embassies, financial district, and brothel (Shaira's) are?  I'm sure there are children on the Citadel but that's one spot I wouldn't expect the wee ones to be running around.

Commander Shepard wrote...
the wards,

 
Where?  The weapons market, police station, casino, or strip club?

Commander Shepard wrote...
im sure some bussiness people working on Noveria could possibly have children,

 
And I'm sure they'd be in the residences we're not shown unless it's take your kid to work day.

What...

There is a strip club less than a mile away from my house, and kids still live in my area. You could go into any neighborhood in the USA and find something about it and give one of these reasons.


"Oh I love in beverly hills, but there is this one crackhead who is smoking next to the 7 eleven. There must not be any kids here."

The reason they don't show where the kids are is because we have no need to see it. This is an idiotic argument because the people on the citadel have to live somewhere. They don't live in the strip clubs most likely, so the only logical assumption is that there are places where people can live on the Citadel. Also, since there are citizens like everyone else on the citadel, it is a logical assumption that they breed and have familes, as well as raise those families.

 There's also probably not any bathrooms on the citadel outside of the one in Chlora's den because that's the only one you can see. Must be a long ass line.

Modifié par Impala, 05 mars 2010 - 07:20 .


#64
Darkened Dragon

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MagusDK wrote...

Krogan female - There is a Krogan Female Emissary you can talk to by the Rite of Passage quest giver. That one may be female, she dresses in a feminine way at least...pretty sure it would be hard for non-Krogan to tell with their species.

If Salarian females are politicians, then doesn't that mean the Salarian on the Council is female? I don't believe I've heard that member referred to as he or she for that matter.


I remember a male on behalf of a female clan but not an actual female there.

#65
Lvl20DM

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I understand why we haven's seen female Turians and Krogan. Simply put, they didn't want to invest the time into developing them (it would be considerable - new models, concept art, voicework, etc.). I don't know why we don't see female Batarians - they are using the human model with a different head. If we got to Palaven or the Salarian homeworld in ME 3, then I expect they will have to make female Turians and Salarians.



You can see the head of a female Elcor in the ad for the Elcor Hamlet - looks like a male Elcor (not surprising). Hanar females seem to look like males - I don't even know if we've had it confirmed if they are hermaphrodites.



Off-topic PS: Quote- "You mean the same judges who found in favour of a woman who sued McDonalds for not letting her know her coffee was hot?" END quote. While I understand that people file and win frivolous law suits, this particular case is not one of them. The coffee in question was the temperature of radiator fluid; when the woman put it to her mouth she suffered 2nd and 3rd degree burns on her face, when she (understandably) dropped it in her lap she suffered 3rd degree burns on her legs. That involves skin grafts.

#66
Cross1280

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Lvl20DM wrote...

Off-topic PS: Quote- "You mean the same judges who found in favour of a woman who sued McDonalds for not letting her know her coffee was hot?" END quote. While I understand that people file and win frivolous law suits, this particular case is not one of them. The coffee in question was the temperature of radiator fluid; when the woman put it to her mouth she suffered 2nd and 3rd degree burns on her face, when she (understandably) dropped it in her lap she suffered 3rd degree burns on her legs. That involves skin grafts.


You beat me to this. Studied this case extensivly in Business Law, McDonalds was fully at fault in this lawsuit, for using a know defective coffee maker, that the helth department told them not to use as during their inspection found that the coffee was reaching tempatures in excess of 180 degrees Fairenhite.

Back on topic. I do not see the lack of immersion as most of it is explained in the codex's for the individule races and as far as hhuman children are concerned shouldn't they be in school? at least in my mind that is where they are.

#67
Temper_Graniteskul

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Darkened Dragon wrote...

MagusDK wrote...

Krogan female - There is a Krogan Female Emissary you can talk to by the Rite of Passage quest giver. That one may be female, she dresses in a feminine way at least...pretty sure it would be hard for non-Krogan to tell with their species.

If Salarian females are politicians, then doesn't that mean the Salarian on the Council is female? I don't believe I've heard that member referred to as he or she for that matter.


I remember a male on behalf of a female clan but not an actual female there.

IIRC, they say that they're a representative from one of the female clans. Between that and the softer voice, I think odds favour that Krogan being female.

#68
Andorfiend

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DPSSOC wrote...

As for children I challenge you to name 1 area in Mass Effect 1 or 2 (haven't played 2 so admittedly I'm at a disadvantage) that strikes you as an appropriate place for children.


When you walk into 'Afterlife' one of the background voices is a woman drunkenly saying "Any of you seen my kid?"

#69
MPSai

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Women aren't important! Just look how Fem!Shep is treated, she's not even mentioned in the manual.

#70
Virginian

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Noilly Prat wrote...

Or maybe future cultural norms (which happen to be shared by all species in Citadel space) dictate that children should be neither seen nor heard, and consequently they're all locked away at home all the time.

I can't say I would disagree if that were the case.

If only that were the case now. Them law breaking, asinine, loud mouthed monstrosities should never be allowed in public until they learn to keep their hands to theirselves and their mouths shut.

#71
Commander Shepard

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Virginian wrote...

Noilly Prat wrote...

Or maybe future cultural norms (which happen to be shared by all species in Citadel space) dictate that children should be neither seen nor heard, and consequently they're all locked away at home all the time.

I can't say I would disagree if that were the case.

If only that were the case now. Them law breaking, asinine, loud mouthed monstrosities should never be allowed in public until they learn to keep their hands to theirselves and their mouths shut.


More their parents fault then theirs for not disciplining them

#72
Bob5312

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Honestly, I can't tell what a Krogan, Hanar, Elcor, Volus, or Turian female would look like. The Krogan females are very deliberately not shown (there is an example of a dead one under a sheet; she looks smaller than the males and doesn't seem to have the hump, but that's all I could tell). Turians are supposedly descended from birds as I understand it, so even if they do give birth to live young I find it hard to imagine that females would look much different from males (I can't tell male or female birds apart, and if they don't feed their children breast milk they wouldn't need mammary glands). Salarian females are kept on Salarian worlds, so no problem there. Elcor and Volus females, I have no idea what they would look like, or if we would be able to tell them apart from males. Drell, we only see two and both are male, so that's not a big omission.

Incidentally, the emissary of the female clan is a juvenile male Krogan.

The absence of children didn't seem all that noticeable to me except in the colonies like Horizon. Couldn't figure out where they all were. Maybe new colonies are no kids allowed?

#73
Chuvvy

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Commander Shepard wrote...

Dethateer wrote...

Didn't someone in the US make a law against kids appearing in violent games or something like that?


I never heard of that. They are in Fallout 3. However, you cant kill kids in Fallout. Maybe the law was about killing kids but not including them.


You can sell children into slavery,that's just as bad if not worse. I trolled bumble hard.

#74
Schneidend

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DarthCaine wrote...

Devs were too lazy to make female models of most species


Or simply didn't have the time, resources, or simply decided it was worth the investment of either. "They were lazy" is a ridiculous notion. In all likelihood, you are not the perfect practicioner of your field, and are therefore lazy. What kind of logic is that?

#75
Marilynn-22

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MPSai wrote...

Women aren't important! Just look how Fem!Shep is treated, she's not even mentioned in the manual.

sadly true, apparently woman are only important if they have big bewbs :/