130 réponses à ce sujet

[Vash3283]

DaveTheJackal wrote...

I really can't undersant all the comments about Mass Effect's DRM on amazon. What's to object about:

With secure ROM I get to install my software on multiple PCs.
After they relaxed the DRM on ME1, I could even lend it to 4 friends, had I chosen to, and they could play the game at the same time as me.
though there was a 5 activation limit, all it takes is a call to EA and, providing you're not obviously a villain, they'll supply new activations for you on demand.
Contrary to popular belief, I don't believe an actual root kit is installed.

Compare this to Steam.

With steam only one person can ever play a game at once.
I can never resell my games.
What's more, I don't own my games and should Valve decide to block my account for, say, cheating at CS:S or somesuch, I lose everything. Every game I have registered on steam is gone. It's not even like a rental, it's more like temporary permission to use the game.

And yet the DRM whiners don't bother complaining steam games at all, they don't attempt to get a game low ratings, none of that nonsense.

What is their problem? Is Valve behind it all? I think we should be told! 

You are either a TERRIBLE troll or so misinformed you should just stop talking about things you know nothing about.

When you buy a game off of steam you are given the Key to use it, and then download it in any manner you like. Steam continually offers cheaper services for NA users. (I know some other countries have pricing problems.) 

Steam does indeed allow more then one person to use an account at a time, granted it has to be in offline mode, however the same games were never meant to be played across multiple PC's at the same time, online.

Steam DOES NOT work like a rental system, once you purchase a game it is YOURS cd key, and all worth involved for it. If you are VAC BANNED you can still play any game you want, except VAC GAMES ONLINE.

So please stop misinforming people with your ignorant, and stupid fail trolling.

[v.dog]

I like Steam. Games are actually cheaper through it in my country (often as much as $40). That, along with the auto patching, match-making, no disc-in-drive requirements, community, and cloud support actually make it a nice package.

I am fully aware of the downsides; The DRM is tight, there are region locks, and I can't sell games, but at least I know where I stand. Unlike other DRM systems, it doesn't install by stealth, mess up my device drivers, give me 'wrong disk' errors when the right disk is in, or do anything that I'm not aware of.

All said, the pros well outweigh the cons.

Modifié par v.dog, 07 mars 2010 - 08:43 .

[DaveTheJackal]

RighteousRage wrote...

DaveTheJackal wrote...
With steam only one person can ever play a game at once.

No

I have played Steam games from the same account on three different computers at the same time before; all it takes is human intelligence and mid-level familiarity with Windows

I guess you can play them in offline mode or if you hack the system, but it's not like it's 'legitimate'.

[DaveTheJackal]

Vash3283 wrote...

You are either a TERRIBLE troll or so misinformed you should just stop talking about things you know nothing about.

When you buy a game off of steam you are given the Key to use it, and then download it in any manner you like. Steam continually offers cheaper services for NA users. (I know some other countries have pricing problems.) 

Steam does indeed allow more then one person to use an account at a time, granted it has to be in offline mode, however the same games were never meant to be played across multiple PC's at the same time, online.

Steam DOES NOT work like a rental system, once you purchase a game it is YOURS cd key, and all worth involved for it. If you are VAC BANNED you can still play any game you want, except VAC GAMES ONLINE.

So please stop misinforming people with your ignorant, and stupid fail trolling.

So you get the key? What value for money! How's that going to help you play a steam-only game if you get banned?

Why should I get banned on all VAC games if, for some reason, they suspect me of hacking once, in one game?

What if someone gets access to my account because of the system valve makes me us and then gets all my games banned through the entirety of VAC, rather than just one game or one server?

Here's what steam support has to say: "In the event that a hijacked Steam account is banned by the Valve Anti-Cheat System, Steam Support can not remove the ban.". 

Ok, so the guy doing the cheating was on an IP in Taiwan and I'm in the Uk, doesn't make a difference, they don't want to know.

What about false positives? VAC is known to kick off in response to some trojans, viruses and port scanners. I lose multiplayer now because I was unlucky enough to buy the wrong internet security suite? On all games?  Seriously?

As for not getting banned from steam, what about the estimated 20,000 users banned in 2004, for installing pirated copies of Half Life 2?

http://news.bbc.co.u...ogy/4041289.stm

I've bought software before that turned out to be pirated (In my case Norton Partition Magic from an apparently legitimate source) and the copy was so good, it was undetectable without a VERY close inspection (I only realised when I tried to reinstall it and my virus checker went wild).  What right has Valve to take away ALL my games if I fall prey to such a ruse? Oh, because it's not even a rental, it's 'termporary permission to play'.

Check your facts before you go shooting your mouth off and please, stop misinforming people with your ignorant, and stupid fail trolling.

Modifié par DaveTheJackal, 07 mars 2010 - 11:03 .

[Vash3283]

DaveTheJackal wrote...

So you get the key? What value for money! How's that going to help you play a steam-only game if you get banned?

Well, you can still log in and play EVERY game on you're steam account after you are banned, you simply cannot access VAC secured servers, specific servers with their banning system in place, every other online and offline game can be played just fine, even unsecure VALVE games.

Why should I get banned on all VAC games if, for some reason, they suspect me of hacking once, in one game?

Because the VAC ban system has been praised as one of the most highly efficient and reliable antihack systems to date, I would take it over Gamespy any day. Also I have never been wrongfuly banned and have been playing since early 2004, nor has anyone I have met.

What if someone gets access to my account because of the system valve makes me us and then gets all my games banned through the entirety of VAC, rather than just one game or one server?

VAC only applies to games using Valves server system, (Half Life 2 deathmatch, CS:S ect.) So all you're games will not be banned.

Here's what steam support has to say: "In the event that a hijacked Steam account is banned by the Valve Anti-Cheat System, Steam Support can not remove the ban.". 

Ok, so the guy doing the cheating was on an IP in Taiwan and I'm in the Uk, doesn't make a difference, they don't want to know.

This is Valves biggest, and in my opinion only flaw, still the games all cost like what 20 dollars now? And if you get hacked, its you're own fault anyways.

What about false positives? VAC is known to kick off in response to some trojans and post scanners. I lose multiplayer now because I was unlucky enough to buy the wrong internet security suite? On all games?  Seriously?

This is untrue, I'd like to see proof of this seriously, I lurk the steam forums constantly and have not once seen any problems like this.
OMG I GOT BANNED FROM THE CEREBUS NETWORK FOR HAVING PANDORA ON MY PC 15 MINUTES AGO 
HOW HORRIBLE!

As for not getting banned from steam, what about the estimated 20,000 users banned in 2004, for installing pirated copies of Half Life 2? I've bought software before that turned out to be pirated (In my case Norton Partition Magic from an apparently legitimate source) and the copy was so good, it was undetectable without a VERY close inspection (I only realised when I tried to reinstall it and my virus checker went wild).  What right has Valve to take away ALL my games if I fall prey to such a ruse? Oh, because it's not even a rental, it's 'termporary permission to play'.

If you install a pirated copy of Half Life 2 AND THEN log on with YOUR steam info, you deserve every bit of ban you got. If you PURCHASED pirated software, then you also deserve a ban, because the guy on the corner in NYC selling you blank DVDS of Half Life 2, surely isnt giving the developers or producers a cut of the profit. 

As I previously mentioned Valve does not touch your games they are fully playable, and mostly playable even when completely banned. (You can play all singleplayer aspects of their games, and in unsecure multiplayer servers)

It is not permission, nor rental, it is a purchase, the CD KEY given to you, whether from gamestop, random dude at the NYC corner, or valve, the CD KEY is what you paid for, the actual content can be obtained almost anywhere online.


http://news.bbc.co.u...ogy/4041289.stm

Seems you slipped this in, when you edited your post, just so you know pirates deserve to be banned. I dont see the problem?

Check
your facts before you go shooting your mouth off and please, stop
misinforming people with your ignorant, and stupid fail trolling.

Ok I admit you made me quite angry when I read your post, but lets stop the flamewar that could ensue now, while we are ahead.

Modifié par Vash3283, 07 mars 2010 - 11:10 .

[Neoteric00]

DaveTheJackal wrote...

So you get the key? What value for money!

Well, you also don't have to go to the store, which saves time and effort. And time and effort are equivelent in value to money. Not to mention gas prices for people who don't have a local store, or shipping prices for other online retailers. You also pay slightly for the continuation of an extremely reliable and hugely beneficial software.

Why should I get banned on all VAC games if, for some reason, they suspect me of hacking once, in one game?

Because vac deosn't SUSPECT things, it has no thought processes. The number of people who get banned innocently is EXTREMELY marginal. You could find a handful of people who got banned wrongly that didn't get unbanned.

What if someone gets access to my account because of the system valve makes me us and then gets all my games banned through the entirety of VAC, rather than just one game or one server?

Here's what steam support has to say: "In the event that a hijacked
Steam account is banned by the Valve Anti-Cheat System, Steam
Support can not remove the ban.". 

Because Steam runs on a closed network, the only time you should be losing your cd-key is if you type it somewhere online either on a phishing site or with a keylogger on your computer. And if that should happen... 1) NO game or company holds any legal responsibility for these situations. They clearly state so in every single ToS and EULA at the beginning of any online game. When something happens and they decide to help you get it back, it's a courtesy, not a guarantee. And 2) regardless of valves stance on the permanency of bans, they have in the past reversed vac bans, it can be done on a limited basis, it just isn't widely publicized because of the vast number of cheaters banned daily in games such as Counterstrike. Imagine if they had to field every lying hacker in the universes petitions, day after day. The ones who are really serious about their innocence fight to prove so, and are rewarded for doing so (on a case to case basis)

What about false positives? VAC is known to kick off in response to some trojans, viruses and port scanners. I lose multiplayer now because I was unlucky enough to buy the wrong internet security suite? On all games?  Seriously?

These are very rare occurances, and I have heard of such things myself. The last one I remember is people editing their master volume in the tf2 config file, and it caused a vac ban. Interestingly, none of these are permanent, and every single case of accidental ban was reversed, as it can easily be proven. Which you either didn't know or are pretending not to know. Either way, you know now at least.

As for not getting banned from steam, what about the estimated 20,000 users banned in 2004, for installing pirated copies of Half Life 2? I've bought software before that turned out to be pirated (In my case Norton Partition Magic from an apparently legitimate source) and the copy was so good, it was undetectable without a VERY close inspection (I only realised when I tried to reinstall it and my virus checker went wild).  What right has Valve to take away ALL my games if I fall prey to such a ruse? Oh, because it's not even a rental, it's 'termporary permission to play'.

Your gratuitous amount of hyperbole and ignorance in this sentence makes me wonder if you really ARE trolling. I hope I am not wasting my time. And that little bit about Norton? It is common knowledge that virus softwares can and will detect other virus software as malicious, because virus scanners happen to work very similarly to actual malware and trojans. On top of which, viruses commonly are named after outdated virus software, in an attempt tp hide from scanning. Regardless, this entire point has NOTHING to do with steam, and I have never heard of such an occurance related to steam, and never will, because it doesn't happen.

EDIT: And about your link you added, it is an article about people who got banned for either 1) pirating a game onto steam (2 using a stolen cc or 3) used a stolen steam account. Also LOL at the people saying valve relased cheats, hacks, and ways to get people to pirate their game in a bait attempt. Even if that didn't sound completely outrageous and unfounded, they are basically saying "I only did something illegal because I thought it was easy" What morons.

Modifié par Neoteric00, 07 mars 2010 - 11:10 .

[DaveTheJackal]

It's still a very restrictive system.

20,000 steam accounts were banned. Players lost all their steam games. Not just valve games, but were I to be sold a pirated copy of HL2 from a crooked retailer, I could lose MW2, Empire Total War, the lot.

PROOF: http://news.bbc.co.u...ogy/4041289.stm

OK, so I should not be able to register HL2, and it shouldn't work and I will probably be able to get my money back if I bought on eBay using Paypal, but getting the money for all the other stuff?

Not a chance.

Steam does not even class as a rental.

As for all the other pious BS about "well, it's your fault for ..." blah blah blah ..how many players of computer games know this stuff? How many more know how to install a game and how to play it, and that's about it? How many even semi computer literate? Be serious.

I don't know about the US, but here in the EU, we have the concept of 'unfair contractual terms'. They can say what they like in their EULA, it doesn't make it legal.

As for this idea that we buy CD keys, that's just rubbish. Whether the ridiculous EULA says that's all we buy or not, we buy the game, that's what we go to purchase a game when we buy a game. Forgive me, but I don't remember the last time I remember someone boasting of the cool new CD key theu bought.

@Neoteric00 I sad Norotn Partition Magic, it doesn't include a virus checked, it's disk partition software. When I looked closely, it became obvious it was a copy, the DVD wasn't silver but an off blue silver. The last paragraph was full of hyperbole to mimic Vash3283 (parts were a direct quote).

One of numerous players banned from VAC for doing nothing: http://www.halflife2...p/t-132067.html What happened to innocent until proved guilty?

Players banned for using xfire, xfire and valve deny there's a problem: http://www.steamfrie...x.php/t314.html

Of course you don't hear about these things if you stick to steam forums. They don't want you to know.

Anyways, I'm not complaining, I'm alright Jack and all that and it's never happened to me. I'm just wondering why the people who do massive campaigns against DRM don't target ANY steam games (to my knowledge).

Modifié par DaveTheJackal, 07 mars 2010 - 11:26 .

[Vash3283]

DaveTheJackal wrote...

It's still a very restrictive system.

20,000 steam accounts were banned. Players lost all their steam games. Not just valve games, but were I to be sold a pirated copy of HL2 from a crooked retailer, I could lose MW2, Empire Total War, the lot.


PROOF: http://news.bbc.co.u...ogy/4041289.stm

I hope you realize this is Steams very very early days and since then they have changed their policies. You do not lose your account anymore, only access to secure servers, within VAC games.

All companies have made poor decisions in the past, as long as they arent making them now, or in the future, you shouldnt have a problem.

Also as a further note, I have been completely banned on one of my alt steam accounts, and could play any game fine, so no you  DO NOT lose MW2, Empire Total War, they are all still completely playable.

Also there was less then 20 games on Steam when they had those old policies.

PROOF: https://support.stea...Z-6869#vacgames

OK, so I should not be able to register HL2, and it shouldn't work and I will probably be able to get my money back if I bought on eBay using Paypal, but getting the money for all the other stuff?

Not a chance.

Steam does not even class as a rental.

You do realize you are hurting the developers you want to support right? And if you want to resell all of you're games then so be it, dont use steam. However dont compare it as something worse then DRM, because it most definatly is not.

As for all the other pious BS about "well, it's your fault for ..." blah blah blah ..how many players of computer games know this stuff? How many more know how to install a game and how to play it, and that's about it? How many even semi computer literate? Be serious.

I don't know about the US, but here in the EU, we have the concept of 'unfair contractual terms'. They can say what they like in their EULA, it doesn't make it legal.

You know you are doing something wrong if you are using a warez site or torrents to obtain the game, or if you bought a blank DVD/shady disc. So in truth, Atleast 90% of everyone should know this, or thanks to social darwinism they shouldnt be along much longer, with such horrible judgement.

As for this idea that we buy CD keys, that's just rubbish. Whether the ridiculous EULA says that's all we buy or not, we buy the game, that's what we go to purchase a game when we buy a game. Forgive me, but I don't remember the last time I remember someone boasting of the cool new CD key theu bought.

A game is data whatever way you look at it, but if its physical bragging rights you are asking for simply do not use steam, but that doesnt count as a downfall towards the actual software. For data bragging rights use this.

Also I will never experience scratched discs, or have to worry about broken DVD drives.

One of numerous players banned from VAC for doing nothing: http://www.halflife2...p/t-132067.html What happened to innocent until proved guilty?

Oh please, one random person talking about a ban, when you do not truly know if they are actually innocent hardly counts as anything, try harder please.

Players banned for using xfire, xfire and valve deny there's a problem: http://www.steamfrie...x.php/t314.html

Because there is no problem, and people dont get banned for using xfire. You're link would be atleast slightly credible if the person claiming to be banned from xfire could spell atleast half the words in his post. (I have been using xfire since BEFORE steam.)

https://support.stea...=7849-RADZ-6869

Of course you don't hear about these things if you stick to steam forums. They don't want you to know.

Anyways, I'm not complaining, I'm alright Jack and all that and it's never happened to me. I'm just wondering why the people who do massive campaigns against DRM don't target ANY steam games (to my knowledge).

Because steam isnt nearly as bad as you want it to be made out to be, its actually one of the best programs I have ever used, I am so ever grateful for the 2.0 meg download speeds for all my games, and ability to banish discs forever more from my life.

Modifié par Vash3283, 07 mars 2010 - 11:45 .

[Dethateer]

DaveTheJackal wrote...


As for all the other pious BS about "well, it's your fault for ..." blah blah blah ..how many players of computer games know this stuff? How many more know how to install a game and how to play it, and that's about it? How many even semi computer literate? Be serious.

You're joking, right?

[Neoteric00]

DaveTheJackal wrote...

It's still a very restrictive system.

20,000 steam accounts were banned. Players lost all their steam games. Not just valve games, but were I to be sold a pirated copy of HL2 from a crooked retailer, I could lose MW2, Empire Total War, the lot.

PROOF: http://news.bbc.co.u...ogy/4041289.stm

OK, so I should not be able to register HL2, and it shouldn't work and I will probably be able to get my money back if I bought on eBay using Paypal, but getting the money for all the other stuff?

Not a chance.

Steam does not even class as a rental.

As for all the other pious BS about "well, it's your fault for ..." blah blah blah ..how many players of computer games know this stuff? How many more know how to install a game and how to play it, and that's about it? How many even semi computer literate? Be serious.

I don't know about the US, but here in the EU, we have the concept of 'unfair contractual terms'. They can say what they like in their EULA, it doesn't make it legal.

As for this idea that we buy CD keys, that's just rubbish. Whether the ridiculous EULA says that's all we buy or not, we buy the game, that's what we go to purchase a game when we buy a game. Forgive me, but I don't remember the last time I remember someone boasting of the cool new CD key theu bought.

@Neoteric00 I sad Norotn Partition Magic, it doesn't include a virus checked, it's disk partition software. When I looked closely, it became obvious it was a copy, the DVD wasn't silver but an off blue silver. The last paragraph was full of hyperbole to mimic Vash3283 (parts were a direct quote).

One of numerous players banned from VAC for doing nothing: http://www.halflife2...p/t-132067.html What happened to innocent until proved guilty?

Players banned for using xfire, xfire and valve deny there's a problem: http://www.steamfrie...x.php/t314.html

Of course you don't hear about these things if you stick to steam forums. They don't want you to know.

Anyways, I'm not complaining, I'm alright Jack and all that and it's never happened to me. I'm just wondering why the people who do massive campaigns against DRM don't target ANY steam games (to my knowledge).

I am going to address this switfly and as a whole, and them I am done with this, because it is becoming blatantly obvious that steam is not the issue here, it's you. PROOF of what exactly? That 20k people got banned for piracy? There's a shock. Steam and valve suck for banning pirates, thank you for enlightening me. And as for your other examples, they're from 2007, and are 2 examples. 2...examples. Granted I am sure it happens rarely anyhow, but your attempts to prove your point are equivalent to not bying bread because some guy found a mouse in his whole wheat one time. And the average user is a lot, lot smater than you pretend. The amount of hyperbole is staggering in your posts. I can't even keep up with it. And did you seriously suggest that having a responsibility claus in an EULA is ILLEGAL? Really? And unfair contractual agreement? What would that be? For example, a no return policy? People everywhere must be getting arrested because the buyer is a moron.

And the most annoying quote I have seen yet..."Steam doesn't even class as a rental" what the hell are you smoking? Since you like links, I will give you an interesting one.  www.shacknews.com/featuredarticle.x  And since most gamers apparently don't know how to even install a game, I will quote the article to so people don't have to figure out how to open the link.

Steam's unit sales increased by 205% in 2009 over 2008's figures, Valve
has declared as part of an announcement detailing the digital
distribution platform's growth last year.
According to the Half-Life and Left 4 Dead dev, this "extraordinary
growth" marks "the fifth straight year the platform has realized over
100% year-over-year growth in unit sales."


"Active accounts" also rose 25% to pass 25 million, of which ten
million have Steam Community profiles.

Even if active accounts meant used for one game once in the last year, a 25% increase in active accounts is quite impressive. Pretty good for a so called poor rental service.

If you can't see what a huge tool you are by now, you can't be helped. But if you really must, please link another unrelated article about pirates getting banned for piracy, or one more 12 year old who got a keylogger. If there are 3 people that had such a thing happen...the humanity! Or you could link a youtube video of kittens playing, might distract people long enough for you to crawl back into your cave and weep.

Modifié par Neoteric00, 07 mars 2010 - 11:48 .

[JediMB]

DaveTheJackal wrote...

but were I to be sold a pirated copy of HL2 from a crooked retailer

I lol'd.

That's as much as you're getting from me.

[DaveTheJackal]

Vash3283 wrote...

DaveTheJackal wrote...

It's still a very restrictive system.

20,000 steam accounts were banned. Players lost all their steam games. Not just valve games, but were I to be sold a pirated copy of HL2 from a crooked retailer, I could lose MW2, Empire Total War, the lot.


PROOF: http://news.bbc.co.u...ogy/4041289.stm

I hope you realize this is Steams very very early days and since then they have changed their policies. You do not lose your account anymore, only access to secure servers, within VAC games.

All companies have made poor decisions in the past, as long as they arent making them now, or in the future, you shouldnt have a problem.

Also as a further note, I have been completely banned on one of my alt steam accounts, and could play any game fine, so no you  DO NOT lose MW2, Empire Total War, they are all still completely playable.

PROOF: https://support.stea...Z-6869#vacgames

OK, so I should not be able to register HL2, and it shouldn't work and I will probably be able to get my money back if I bought on eBay using Paypal, but getting the money for all the other stuff?

Not a chance.

Steam does not even class as a rental.

You do realize you are hurting the developers you want to support right? And if you want to resell all of you're games then so be it, dont use steam. However dont compare it as something worse then DRM, because it most definatly is not.

As for all the other pious BS about "well, it's your fault for ..." blah blah blah ..how many players of computer games know this stuff? How many more know how to install a game and how to play it, and that's about it? How many even semi computer literate? Be serious.

I don't know about the US, but here in the EU, we have the concept of 'unfair contractual terms'. They can say what they like in their EULA, it doesn't make it legal.

You know you are doing something wrong if you are using a warez site or torrents to obtain the game, or if you bought a blank DVD/shady disc. So in truth, Atleast 90% of everyone should know this, or thanks to social darwinism they shouldnt be along much longer, with such horrible judgement.

As for this idea that we buy CD keys, that's just rubbish. Whether the ridiculous EULA says that's all we buy or not, we buy the game, that's what we go to purchase a game when we buy a game. Forgive me, but I don't remember the last time I remember someone boasting of the cool new CD key theu bought.

A game is data whatever way you look at it, but if its physical bragging rights you are asking for simply do not use steam, but that doesnt count as a downfall towards the actual software. For data bragging rights use this.

Also I will never experience scratched discs, or have to worry about broken DVD drives.

One of numerous players banned from VAC for doing nothing: http://www.halflife2...p/t-132067.html What happened to innocent until proved guilty?

Oh please, one random person talking about a ban, when you do not truly know if they are actually innocent hardly counts as anything, try harder please.

Players banned for using xfire, xfire and valve deny there's a problem: http://www.steamfrie...x.php/t314.html

Because there is no problem, and people dont get banned for using xfire. (I have been using xfire since BEFORE steam.)

https://support.stea...=7849-RADZ-6869

Of course you don't hear about these things if you stick to steam forums. They don't want you to know.

Anyways, I'm not complaining, I'm alright Jack and all that and it's never happened to me. I'm just wondering why the people who do massive campaigns against DRM don't target ANY steam games (to my knowledge).

Because steam isnt nearly as bad as you want it to be made out to be, its actually one of the best programs I have ever used, I am so ever grateful for the 2.0 meg download speeds for all my games, and ability to banish discs forever more from my life.

How can I play Empire Total war if it requires Steam to play? Of course a VAC ban would allow you to play the non-online component of all games and the online components of some, but an account ban, i.e. when your steam account gets disabled, loses you everything.

If the HL2 ban was such an obvious mistake, and a one off, when did Valve reverse it? Why does it still say that bans will not be reversed in the steam support section if they've changed?

Ok, so I may have pirated HL2 ... but what right does that give steam to take away ALL MY STEAM GAMES?

True, if you believe the positives of steam counteract the negatives, it's useful, but the truth is it's as restrictive, if not more so, than any other DRM system. Of the two, I prefer Secure ROM, for the above reasons. I have no problems keeping track of my possessions and can always borrow a CD/DVD if it gets scratched.

With steam you don't own a game. If I own a thing, I can resell it. How am I damaging game developers if I resell a game? Why couldn't I resell left4dead once I realised just how repetative and boring it was, one hour in to playing? Why should I support someone who produces something I don't like?

It's clearly in breach of UK distance selling regulations, which AFAIK only excempt boxed games which have been opened, http://www.out-law.com/page-430. The problem being that you can't guarantee a person uninstalls a product when they return it, a problem steam doesn't have.

PS you do also know that many games come with different serial codes for steam and non-steam games, right? So that even if you do get your hands on a friend's DVD following a ban, you're still not going to be able to play.

PPS 

"Active accounts" also rose 25% to pass 25 million, of which ten million have Steam Community profiles.

.... argumentum ad populum. Invalid. By this measure there's no problem with secure rom. And yet the haters hate.... why don't they hate on steam?

If you can't see what a huge tool you are by now,..

Argumentum ad hominem. A sure sign of someone losing an argument. An argument started to a question I never asked. I asked the question, 'why don't the protesters protest just as much about steam?', not 'steam is evil isn't it?'.

Modifié par DaveTheJackal, 07 mars 2010 - 12:17 .

[DaveTheJackal]

v.dog wrote...

I like Steam. Games are actually cheaper through it in my country (often as much as $40). That, along with the auto patching, match-making, no disc-in-drive requirements, community, and cloud support actually make it a nice package.

Yeah, I hear games are expensive in the US than the Uk. I paid £16 for ME2, about $22, boxed. That was a good find, it's not uncommon for games to come out at about £20-£25/$35-38 though. Much cheaper than steam prices.

PS I'm not against DRM, I don't understand why people complain about it. It just amazes me more than anything that people don't complain about Steam as much or more than they complain about Secure ROM.

[DaveTheJackal]

Dethateer wrote...

DaveTheJackal wrote...


As for all the other pious BS about "well, it's your fault for ..." blah blah blah ..how many players of computer games know this stuff? How many more know how to install a game and how to play it, and that's about it? How many even semi computer literate? Be serious.

You're joking, right?

You're joking, right? I install 1 pirated game and all my steam games are stolen in retribution, by Valve? Unless, of course, as I state, steam is a 'right to play' scheme and not ownership at all...

Modifié par DaveTheJackal, 07 mars 2010 - 12:19 .

[Vash3283]

How can I play Empire Total war if it requires Steam to play? Of course a VAC ban would allow you to play the non-online component of all games and the online components of some, but an account ban, i.e. when your steam account gets disabled, loses you everything.

You do not simply get your account closed, unless you are a account with no games, and simply try to phish other accounts/spam everyone.

If the HL2 ban was such an obvious mistake, and a one off, when did Valve reverse it? Why does it still say that bans will not be reversed in the steam support section if they've changed?

Their are plenty of stories of people getting their ban reversed, as Neoteric states you simply have to prove your innocence, and be willing to fight for it, Valve would be constantly flooded for unbans from unrightful people constantly if their "official policy" was to unban people after a review, or whatever.

True, if you believe the positives of steam counteract the negatives, it's useful, but the truth is it's as restrictive, if not more so, than any other DRM system. Of the two, I prefer Secure ROM, for the above reasons. I have no problems keeping track of my possessions and can always borrow a CD/DVD if it gets scratched.

Steam has unlimited installs and never asks for a random disc check, also there are no rootkits, ever, I despise Secure ROM and TAGES even more, but love steam. Anyways I DO have trouble tracking my posessions, keeping all of them on one account, makes my life so much easier, and I have never had a problem, throughout all these years.

With steam you don't own a game. If I own a thing, I can resell it. How am I damaging game developers if I resell a game? Why couldn't I resell left4dead once I realised just how repetative and boring it was, one hour in to playing? Why should I support someone who produces something I don't like?

If you resell a game, the developers make no money from the person who would either buy the game at full price or wait for bargain prices.

Your Left 4 Dead review is an opinion, and millions would disagree, a majority of PC gamers probably, il keep my own opinion to myself. Anyways L4D has a demo, and if you really must you can pirate it, and play over a private network, to "try before you buy". (I do not support the latter option)

It's clearly in breach of UK distance selling regulations, which AFAIK only excempt boxed games which have been opened, http://www.out-law.com/page-430. The problem being that you can't guarantee a person uninstalls a product when they return it, a problem steam doesn't have.

Well I dont see the UK doing anything about it?

PS you do also know that many games come with different serial codes for steam and non-steam games, right? So that even if you do get your hands on a friend's DVD following a ban, you're still not going to be able to play.

Steam has made multiple confirmations that everyone would recieve their game via cd key, if their company was ever to die. Ones that work. Anyways you can not play credible multiplayer game, that has been made recently with JUST a DVD.

Modifié par Vash3283, 07 mars 2010 - 12:21 .

[Neoteric00]

Ok, I lied, one last post.

How can I play Empire Total war if it requires Steam to play? Of course a VAC ban would allow you to play the non-online component of all games and the online components of some, but an account ban, i.e. when your steam account gets disabled, loses you everything.

VAC ban is for cheating with KNOWN cheats in a VAC-ENABLED server on a VALVE GAME. A VAC ban only bans valve games from VAC enabled servers. You can still play in non-secure servers, with the hundred thousand cheaters and a dozen morons. If you don't understand what I just said then please stop talking about it.

True, if you believe the positives of steam counteract the negatives, it's useful, but the truth is it's as restrictive, if not more so, than any other DRM system.

On what basis do you make this claim? The fact that you can play these games on any system with steam installed without having to cart around cds and cases everywhere? Or perhaps the fact that you can buy the games in your underwear and download instantly. Or maybe the fact that you can have access to the vast majority of released games with ease and in one location? If the only restriction you are talking about is getting banned, see above. Also you can get banned from any game for being a moron or cheating, just like you can with steam.

With steam you don't own a game. If I own a thing, I can resell it. How am I damaging game developers if I resell a game? Why couldn't I resell left4dead once I realised just how repetative and boring it was, one hour in to playing? Why should I support someone who produces something I don't like?

You can't sell pc games to to retail stores, or return them once opened. And if you really feel strongly about illegally selling a steam game to someone, put each game on a different account. I mean, all these innocent people out there pirating games and getting banned, trying to return pc games after they beat them for a full refund, cheating at games and getting banned on certain servers for valve games? Trying to sell a used videogame on ebay or to a friend?  How do these evil corporations sleep at night?

Also, your argument about the reasons for reselling left4dead is akin to selling a partially full bottle of soda because you didn't like the flavor. You assume the risks when you purchase a video game for the pc, regardless of steam or not. ANOTHER unrelated point from you, who would have seen it coming?

PPS 

"Active accounts" also rose 25% to pass 25 million, of which ten million have Steam Community profiles.

.... argumentum ad populum. Invalid. By this measure there's no problem with secure rom. And yet the haters hate.... why don't they hate on steam?

I wasn't posting that in regards to steam relating to secure-rom, rather to the fact that you claimed steam was a ****ty rental service. Reading comprehension is for losers though, don't worry about it.

Modifié par Neoteric00, 07 mars 2010 - 12:24 .

[Dethateer]

DaveTheJackal wrote...

Dethateer wrote...

DaveTheJackal wrote...


As for all the other pious BS about "well, it's your fault for ..." blah blah blah ..how many players of computer games know this stuff? How many more know how to install a game and how to play it, and that's about it? How many even semi computer literate? Be serious.

You're joking, right?

You're joking, right? I install 1 pirated game and all my steam games are stolen in retribution, by Valve? Unless, of course, as I state, steam is a 'right to play' scheme and not ownership at all...

There's one thing I really f**king hate about games: the EULA. You never own a game, even if you buy it in a box. And that wasn't my point. I asked you if you were joking about PC gamers being computer illiterate.

[Vash3283]

You're joking, right? I install 1 pirated game and all my steam games are stolen in retribution, by Valve? Unless, of course, as I state, steam is a 'right to play' scheme and not ownership at all...

For the record you do not lose all your games, STOP SPREADING MISINFORMATION.

Also you must not have been on steam for the christmas sale, games were literally 1.99 left and right. They literally broke records for having the best sales for any games. Ever.

Modifié par Vash3283, 07 mars 2010 - 12:33 .

[Neoteric00]

Vash3283 wrote...

You're joking, right? I install 1 pirated game and all my steam games are stolen in retribution, by Valve? Unless, of course, as I state, steam is a 'right to play' scheme and not ownership at all...

For the record you do not lose all your games, STOP SPREADING MISINFORMATION.

He has been told this at least 5 times now, he is obviously just trolling and we are wasting our time.

[DaveTheJackal]

Vash3283 wrote...

DaveTheJackal wrote...

How can I play Empire Total war if it requires Steam to play? Of course a VAC ban would allow you to play the non-online component of all games and the online components of some, but an account ban, i.e. when your steam account gets disabled, loses you everything.

You do not simply get your account closed, unless you are a account with no games, and simply try to phish other accounts/spam everyone.

If the HL2 ban was such an obvious mistake, and a one off, when did Valve reverse it? Why does it still say that bans will not be reversed in the steam support section if they've changed?

Their are plenty of stories of people getting their ban reversed, as Neoteric states you simply have to prove your innocence, and be willing to fight for it, Valve would be constantly flooded for unbans from unrightful people constantly if their "official policy" was to unban people after a review, or whatever.

True, if you believe the positives of steam counteract the negatives, it's useful, but the truth is it's as restrictive, if not more so, than any other DRM system. Of the two, I prefer Secure ROM, for the above reasons. I have no problems keeping track of my possessions and can always borrow a CD/DVD if it gets scratched.

Steam has unlimited installs and never asks for a random disc check, also there are no rootkits, ever, I despise Secure ROM and TAGES even more, but love steam. Anyways I DO have trouble tracking my posessions, keeping all of them on one account, makes my life so much easier, and I have never had a problem, throughout all these years.

With steam you don't own a game. If I own a thing, I can resell it. How am I damaging game developers if I resell a game? Why couldn't I resell left4dead once I realised just how repetative and boring it was, one hour in to playing? Why should I support someone who produces something I don't like?

If you resell a game, the developers make no money from the person who would either buy the game at full price or wait for bargain prices.

Your Left 4 Dead review is an opinion, and millions would disagree, a majority of PC gamers probably, il keep my own opinion to myself. Anyways L4D has a demo, and if you really must you can pirate it, and play over a private network, to "try before you buy". (I do not support the latter option)

It's clearly in breach of UK distance selling regulations, which AFAIK only excempt boxed games which have been opened, http://www.out-law.com/page-430. The problem being that you can't guarantee a person uninstalls a product when they return it, a problem steam doesn't have.

Well I dont see the UK doing anything about it?

PS you do also know that many games come with different serial codes for steam and non-steam games, right? So that even if you do get your hands on a friend's DVD following a ban, you're still not going to be able to play.

Steam has made multiple confirmations that everyone would recieve their game via cd key, if their company was ever to die. Ones that work. Anyways you can not play credible multiplayer game, that has been made recently with JUST a DVD.

I liked the L4D demo, my disappointment was that it showed just about 100% of the gameplay and valve disabled it on day 1 of the L4D launch. My thought were "I've just paid £26 for the demo I was playing a week ago". my point was that I did not like it, and wanted to resell it, I couldn't. Unfortinately in the UK there is no equivalent of a class action law suit, so it'd be expensive to push through court. I'm not sure what the authorities could do about it.

RE game resales - are you saying that buying an item, any item, second hand, is not supporting the manufacturer? Second hand cars? Second hand movie DVDs? Second hand clothes? Second hand Art Works? Second hand houses? 

If not, I'd like to know why computer games are a special case. Surely, if it's any good, I'll want to keep it.

Of course the creator does not directly get money from it, but how does this become some sort of betrayal of the gaming industry? Surely even if I don't like it and plenty of others do .. and I can resell it at a decent price, that's going to make me more likely to try their next game, if nothing else?

If I don't like or want what they produce I can resell it ... if I actually own the thing, that is. Clearly not the case with steam.

[DaveTheJackal]

Vash3283 wrote...

You're joking, right? I install 1 pirated game and all my steam games are stolen in retribution, by Valve? Unless, of course, as I state, steam is a 'right to play' scheme and not ownership at all...

For the record you do not lose all your games, STOP SPREADING MISINFORMATION.

The people who were banned in the HL2 ban, had their steam accounts disabled. They lost everything they had on steam. Not just HL2. STOP SPREADING MISINFORMATION.

[DaveTheJackal]

Dethateer wrote...

DaveTheJackal wrote...

Dethateer wrote...

DaveTheJackal wrote...


As for all the other pious BS about "well, it's your fault for ..." blah blah blah ..how many players of computer games know this stuff? How many more know how to install a game and how to play it, and that's about it? How many even semi computer literate? Be serious.

You're joking, right?

You're joking, right? I install 1 pirated game and all my steam games are stolen in retribution, by Valve? Unless, of course, as I state, steam is a 'right to play' scheme and not ownership at all...

There's one thing I really f**king hate about games: the EULA. You never own a game, even if you buy it in a box. And that wasn't my point. I asked you if you were joking about PC gamers being computer illiterate.

I'd say most are less than you think. It's easy to assume everyone knows as much as you and your friends, but I've known a fair few who got confused selecting install options and never even go in to the game options to max out graphics in case they break something, etc.

My own brother for one and a friend who is an MD (but no techie) for another.

[Vash3283]

I liked the L4D demo, my disappointment was that it showed just about 100% of the gameplay and valve disabled it on day 1 of the L4D launch. My thought were "I've just paid £26 for the demo I was playing a week ago". my point was that I did not like it, and wanted to resell it, I couldn't. Unfortinately in the UK there is no equivalent of a class action law suit, so it'd be expensive to push through court. I'm not sure what the authorities could do about it.

They would not do anything, trust me, Im not quite sure what you are saying, but you paid for it, and signed an agreement doing so. They would do nothing. You would waste money for sure though.

Anyways thats your problem with a game thats fine, doesnt have anything to do with steam as a vendor, except it doesnt allow resell, which in my opinion, resell is the worst thing to come to video games, it only hurts the developers.

RE game resales - are you saying that buying an item, any item, second hand, is not supporting the manufacturer? Second hand cars? Second hand movie DVDs? Second hand clothes? Second hand Art Works? Second hand houses? 

If not, I'd like to know why computer games are a special case. Surely, if it's any good, I'll want to keep it.

There is a clear diffrence everything you said besides DVD's is physcial. Games are data, thats all their worth, the data within the disc, which most of the time can only be accessed with a cd key, which is the real value, when you make a steam account be prepared to not resell, unless you want to sell your entire account.

Of course the creator does not directly get money from it, but how does this become some sort of betrayal of the gaming industry? Surely even if I don't like it and plenty of others do .. and I can resell it at a decent price, that's going to make me more likely to try their next game, if nothing else?

If I don't like or want what they produce I can resell it ... if I actually own the thing, that is. Clearly not the case with steam.

No game company likes resell, thats why Cerebus was made for Mass Effect 2, BIOWARE isnt making any worse of a move with the Cerebus Network, then Valve is with Steam.

[Dethateer]

Wow. That's just... wow. If you're telling the truth, I feel sorry for our species, and I live in a country basically run by stupidity. Though your idea of "it might just be your friends" works both ways, you know. It could be a small number of illiterates, of which you would happen to know many.

Modifié par Dethateer, 07 mars 2010 - 12:46 .

[Vash3283]

DaveTheJackal wrote...

Vash3283 wrote...

You're joking, right? I install 1 pirated game and all my steam games are stolen in retribution, by Valve? Unless, of course, as I state, steam is a 'right to play' scheme and not ownership at all...

For the record you do not lose all your games, STOP SPREADING MISINFORMATION.

The people who were banned in the HL2 ban, had their steam accounts disabled. They lost everything they had on steam. Not just HL2. STOP SPREADING MISINFORMATION.

You mean back in the days before Steam had any games on it that were not produced by Valve, and BTW that never happened again after that incident. My information is correct yours is not. :happy: