130 réponses à ce sujet

[BlackenBlue]

If you want to talk halfass protection, I suggest you go take a look at another company whose name has been in the news lately, not Bioware. ME2's is just fine.

Modifié par BlackenBlue, 07 mars 2010 - 12:44 .

[Neoteric00]

I'd say most are less than you think. It's easy to assume everyone knows as much as you and your friends, but I've known a fair few who got confused selecting install options and never even go in to the game options to max out graphics in case they break something, etc.

My own brother for one and a friend who is an MD (but no techie) for another.

I haven't laughed that hard in a while. Ignorance is no excuse for ANYTHING. ESPECIALLY when we have google to tell you anything you ever need know. And get your brother some help before he chokes on a spoon, for gods sake.

Modifié par Neoteric00, 07 mars 2010 - 12:49 .

[DaveTheJackal]

Vash3283 wrote...

I liked the L4D demo, my disappointment was that it showed just about 100% of the gameplay and valve disabled it on day 1 of the L4D launch. My thought were "I've just paid £26 for the demo I was playing a week ago". my point was that I did not like it, and wanted to resell it, I couldn't. Unfortinately in the UK there is no equivalent of a class action law suit, so it'd be expensive to push through court. I'm not sure what the authorities could do about it.

They would not do anything, trust me, Im not quite sure what you are saying, but you paid for it, and signed an agreement doing so. They would do nothing. You would waste money for sure though.

Anyways thats your problem with a game thats fine, doesnt have anything to do with steam as a vendor, except it doesnt allow resell, which in my opinion, resell is the worst thing to come to video games, it only hurts the developers.

It's not a vendor, its a rental company.
Like I said, the agreement is invalid, in the UK a least. 

There is a clear diffrence everything you said besides DVD's is physcial. Games are data, thats all their worth, the data within the disc, which most of the time can only be accessed with a cd key, which is the real value, when you make a steam account be prepared to not resell, unless you want to sell your entire account.

Ah ok, so movie. sorted in the form of 'data' on a DVD doesn't cost
anything to produce? People buy them for the object and not the data
within them. Are some DVDs especially attractive? Do people use them as coasters? Or
is the truth that they contain data/software, often costing many times
the production cost of the most expensive computer games, that is all people want and the medium is pretty much irrelevant?

No game company likes resell, thats why Cerebus was made for Mass Effect 2, BIOWARE isnt making any worse of a move with the Cerebus Network, then Valve is with Steam.

PS the word is THAN ... "BIOWARE isnt making any worse of a move with the Cerebus Network, than Valve is with Steam."

Bioware is offering a bonus if I buy the game new, which I can sell to someone who doesn't mind not having it.

Valve offer me a rentalish like agreement, and doesn't allow any resale. They spoke of massive amounts of free DLC for L4d, but what did we get? A tiny amount of free DLC and L4D2.

How are these even remotely equivalent?

Modifié par DaveTheJackal, 07 mars 2010 - 12:58 .

[DaveTheJackal]

Neoteric00 wrote...

I'd say most are less than you think. It's easy to assume everyone knows as much as you and your friends, but I've known a fair few who got confused selecting install options and never even go in to the game options to max out graphics in case they break something, etc.

My own brother for one and a friend who is an MD (but no techie) for another.

I haven't laughed that hard in a while. Ignorance is no excuse for ANYTHING. ESPECIALLY when we have google to tell you anything you ever need know. And get your brother some help before he chokes on a spoon, for gods sake.

I agree and it's a pain in the ass when he calls me with a problem and the answer is "ok now switch the thing on", but it's also no excuse for penalizing people for being nothing more than normal consumers.

[DaveTheJackal]

Neoteric00 wrote...

Ok, I lied, one last post.

How can I play Empire Total war if it requires Steam to play? Of course a VAC ban would allow you to play the non-online component of all games and the online components of some, but an account ban, i.e. when your steam account gets disabled, loses you everything.

VAC ban is for cheating with KNOWN cheats in a VAC-ENABLED server on a VALVE GAME. A VAC ban only bans valve games from VAC enabled servers. You can still play in non-secure servers, with the hundred thousand cheaters and a dozen morons. If you don't understand what I just said then please stop talking about it.

As you know, I am not suggesting that a VAC ban would do anything else. Since there are enough cheats out there anyways, which honest player wants to play on a non-VAC server?

[Dethateer]

Uh, no, below average ability to use deductive reasoning (especially considering how thoroughly described installer options are, as if they were written for the terminally stupid) doesn't make you an average consumer. At least I hope it doesn't.

[Vash3283]

It's not a vendor, its a rental company.
Like I said, the agreement is invalid, in the UK a least.

You keep the game forever, in some form atleast even if you break every possible rule and law possible for valve to take action against you. Vendor. Not Rental. It is not rental, no matter how hard you want it to be, it will never be and is not.

Ah ok, so movie. sorted in the form of 'data' on a DVD doesn't cost
anything to produce? People buy them for the object and not the data
within them. Are some DVDs especially attractive? Do people use them as coasters? Or
is the truth that they contain data/software, often costing many times
the production cost of the most expensive computer games, that is all people want and the medium is pretty much irrelevant?

I never said second hand DVDS were justified, or cars, or houses. Anyways a dvd in itself is useless, as I said for a game or movie, all that matters is the digital part.  I just want the people who made the game recieve payment for their hard, honest work, whether or not you enjoyed it.

PS the word is THAN ... "BIOWARE isnt making any worse of a move with the Cerebus Network, than Valve is with Steam."

Bioware is offering a bonus if I buy the game new, which I can sell to someone who doesn't mind not having it.

I love the Cerebus Network, I am recieving a constant flow of free DLC, and I am sure they will recieve increased sales, with less people buying used copys for 10 dollars cheaper at gamestop. (You can still share the game with your friend if you trust them with your account, just like with Steam.)

Correcting one of my words still doesnt make you right, because you are wrong, so please do not bother to pick apart every indivudal word I write.

Valve offer me a rentalish like agreement, and doesn't allow any retail. They spoke of massive amounts of free DLC for L4d, but what did we get? A tiny amount of free DLC and L4D2.

How are these even remotely equivalent?

2 DLC packs were released, L4D and Valves marketing efforts have nothing to do with steam, it is not a rental you still have the full copy of L4D, I am sure of this because they do not close accounts as of L4D's release. Do not buy L4D2 and move on, you learned your lesson, never pay for a zombie Valve game again, just like with any game you dont like. 

Point is its not renting just because you cant sell it to someone else, sorry but you are so wrong, and its quite annoying seeing you repeat it over and over, you have the full game play it or dont, support the future games they make or dont.

Modifié par Vash3283, 07 mars 2010 - 01:05 .

[DaveTheJackal]

Dethateer wrote...

Uh, no, below average ability to use deductive reasoning (especially considering how thoroughly described installer options are, as if they were written for the terminally stupid) doesn't make you an average consumer. At least I hope it doesn't.

Ignorance is not equal to intelligence. It just means you don't know stuff. At least I'd hope it does, since I wouldn't like to think the friend who's a doctor is 'terminally stupid'. His expertise just lies elsewhere.

I'd also include my father in the ranks of the clueless, who was one of the directors of the European division of a major US chemicals company when he retired. Again, no ******.

[Dethateer]

I'm curious if either of you (Vash and Dave) has ever read an EULA. You NEVER own a game, no matter where you buy it from. Unless things changed considerably since I last read one myself.
[e]
Dave, no offense, but... dude, if you can't figure out what "Graphics" could possibly contain in the Options menu... hell, I'm not a particularly smart guy, and I still managed to learn how to do lots of crap on my own.

Modifié par Dethateer, 07 mars 2010 - 01:04 .

[Vash3283]

[quote]Dethateer wrote...

I'm curious if either of you (Vash and
Dave) has ever read an EULA. You NEVER own a game, no matter where you
buy it from. Unless things changed considerably since I last read one
myself.
[e]
Dave, no offense, but... dude, if you can't figure
out what "Graphics" could possibly contain in the Options menu... hell,
I'm not a particularly smart guy, and I still managed to learn how to
do lots of crap on my own.
[/quote]

I have but for
practically terms, since EVERY game has that damn EULA, and they
normally do not enforce, the whole "its ours still" thing, I try to not
include it in my arguement.

[quote]Dethateer wrote...

Uh, no, below average ability to use deductive reasoning (especially considering how thoroughly described installer options are, as if they were written for the terminally stupid) doesn't make you an average consumer. At least I hope it doesn't.[/quote]

Ignorance is not equal to intelligence. It just means you don't know stuff. At least I'd hope it does, since I wouldn't like to think the friend who's a doctor is 'terminally stupid'. His expertise just lies elsewhere.

I'd also include my father in the ranks of the clueless, who was one of the directors of the European division of a major US chemicals company when he retired. Again, no ******.[/quote]

You're father isnt the majority of PC gamers. /end:bandit:

Modifié par Vash3283, 07 mars 2010 - 01:07 .

[DaveTheJackal]

[quote]Vash3283 wrote...

[quote]It's not a vendor, its a rental company.
Like I said, the agreement is invalid, in the UK a least. [/quote]

You keep the game forever, in some form atleast even if you break every possible rule and law possible for valve to take action against you. Vendor. Not Rental. It is not rental, no matter how hard you want it to be, it will never be and is not.
[/quote]

Ok it's a long rental. I have a 999 year lease on the ground on which my house is built. It's still a lease.

[quote]I never said second hand DVDS were justified, or cars, or houses. Anyways a dvd in itself is useless, as I said for a game or movie, all that matters is the digital part.  I just want the people who made the game recieve payment for their hard, honest work, whether or not you enjoyed it.[/quote]

The same for car manufacturers, artists, movie makers. anyone. Suck it up, it's called capitalism.

[quote]
I love the Cerebus Network, I am recieving a constant flow of free DLC, and I am sure they will recieve increased sales, with less people buying used copys for 10 dollars cheaper at gamestop. (You can still share the game with your friend if you trust them with your account, just like with Steam.)
[/quote]

Like I said, I have clueless friends.

[quote]Valve offer me a rentalish like agreement, and doesn't allow any retail. They spoke of massive amounts of free DLC for L4d, but what did we get? A tiny amount of free DLC and L4D2.

How are these even remotely equivalent?[/quote]

2 DLC packs were released, L4D and Valves marketing efforts have nothing to do with steam, it is not a rental you still have the full copy of L4D, I am sure of this because they do not close accounts as of L4D's release. Do not buy L4D2 and move on, you learned your lesson, never pay for a zombie Valve game again, just like with any game you dont like. 

Point is its not renting just because you cant sell it to someone else, sorry but you are so wrong, and its quite annoying seeing you repeat it over and over, you have the full game play it or dont, support the future games they make or dont.

[/quote]

It's a rental. I can't resell it. Anything I own I can resell. Sorry.

2 DLC packs, was it 2 maps. Not what was promised. We were promised expansions of the order that were provided for TF2.

Like you said though, that's not steams fault, the fact I can't resell the hunkojunk, is.

Modifié par DaveTheJackal, 07 mars 2010 - 01:11 .

[DaveTheJackal]

Dethateer wrote...

I'm curious if either of you (Vash and Dave) has ever read an EULA. You NEVER own a game, no matter where you buy it from. Unless things changed considerably since I last read one myself.

Dave, no offense, but... dude, if you can't figure out what "Graphics" could possibly contain in the Options menu... hell, I'm not a particularly smart guy, and I still managed to learn how to do lots of crap on my own.

I know you never own a game, which is why I can't understand why the whiners whine about the DRM on ME1 and not about steam (which was my original point before the thread got stolen by steambois).

I think disk checks are strange, but they disabled them on ME1 years ago and hopefully will eventually do the same with ME2.

RE: Graphics options - I agree. It mistify's me too, but some people just aren't technical.

[Dethateer]

The fact that the EULA isn't enforced doesn't mean it can't be. It's still a legal document, just because it hasn't been used yet doesn't mean it never will. Bottom line, EA can deny you access to your games just as easily as Steam. Neither will ever do it on purpose, though.

[Vash3283]

Ok it's a long rental. I have a 999 year lease on the ground on which my house is built. It's still a lease.

Once purchased, you keep it forever, not just 999 years.

The same for car manufacturers, artists, movie makers. anyone. Suck it up, it's called capitalism.

Exactly my point, which is why they can make methods to discourage resale.

It's a rental. I can't resell it. Anything I own I can resell. Sorry.

2 DLC packs, was it 2 maps. Not what was promised. We were promised expansions of the order that were provided for TF2.

Like you said though, that's not steams fault, the fact I can't resell the hunkojunk, is.

TF2 equivalent expansions were never promised, "Free DLC" was.

Definining Rental: Renting
is an agreement where a payment is made for the temporary use of a
good, service or property owned by another person or company.

Its not a rental, nor temporary, sorry. Lack of Resale or not, does not define something being a rental, having a game for 7 days and having to return it does.

[DaveTheJackal]

Dethateer wrote...

The fact that the EULA isn't enforced doesn't mean it can't be. It's still a legal document, just because it hasn't been used yet doesn't mean it never will. Bottom line, EA can deny you access to your games just as easily as Steam. Neither will ever do it on purpose, though.

True .... and yet ME1 gets something like 3/5 stars on amazon due to DRM protesters, and L4D gets something like 5/5... no DRM protesters. Why? That's what I was asking.

[Neoteric00]

DaveTheJackal wrote...

Dethateer wrote...

Uh, no, below average ability to use deductive reasoning (especially considering how thoroughly described installer options are, as if they were written for the terminally stupid) doesn't make you an average consumer. At least I hope it doesn't.

Ignorance is not equal to intelligence. It just means you don't know stuff. At least I'd hope it does, since I wouldn't like to think the friend who's a doctor is 'terminally stupid'. His expertise just lies elsewhere.

I'd also include my father in the ranks of the clueless, who was one of the directors of the European division of a major US chemicals company when he retired. Again, no ******.

You're right, they aren't the same. But those people mentioned are what is known as willfully ignorant, and probably stupid, as you are with almost everything you have typed in these past hours. Any person with an average level of intelligence can read an installation wizard and figure out what to do, regardless if they have ever done so before. If they see a big block of text and a checkbox and a button that says next and they **** their pants with fright and hide behind the couch, they need help. A doctor who reads mountains of textbooks and learns difficult terminologies as a requirement of his career can handle installing a video game. And if they can't, they are willfully ignorant, because they could experiment, or google. Either way works.

And seriously, doesn't mess with graphic options because they are afraid of what might happen?

Actually, I am done. Your ENTIRE ARGUMENT, from the first post, was based on "this guy had this happen and therefore it is obviously a problem" Can you come up with one thing that doesn't relate to hearsay and singular examples? As I said perviously in another post, this is all akin to someone finding a dead mouse in their bread, and refusing to buy bread anymore. Or someone refusing to buy another car because one had a failed break line. There are going to be exceptions to the rule. Valve has proven that steam is a reliable and almost foolproof system that is leaps and bounds beyond anything anyone else has done. More and more people are using steam, and not because there isn't other options, but because it is by far the best one.

[Vash3283]

DaveTheJackal wrote...

Dethateer wrote...

The fact that the EULA isn't enforced doesn't mean it can't be. It's still a legal document, just because it hasn't been used yet doesn't mean it never will. Bottom line, EA can deny you access to your games just as easily as Steam. Neither will ever do it on purpose, though.

True .... and yet ME1 gets something like 3/5 stars on amazon due to DRM protesters, and L4D gets something like 5/5... no DRM protesters. Why? That's what I was asking.

Because millions support and love L4D, and the only limitation steam gives is not being able to resale. Which doesnt seem to bother those millions.

[Dethateer]

DaveTheJackal wrote...

Dethateer wrote...

The fact that the EULA isn't enforced doesn't mean it can't be. It's still a legal document, just because it hasn't been used yet doesn't mean it never will. Bottom line, EA can deny you access to your games just as easily as Steam. Neither will ever do it on purpose, though.

True .... and yet ME1 gets something like 3/5 stars on amazon due to DRM protesters, and L4D gets something like 5/5... no DRM protesters. Why? That's what I was asking.

That's something related to rootkits and the install limit. Which I hate, I nearly ran out for Spore, and calling EA games from Eastern Europe isn't... something I have the time to do.  Especially with EA's "awesome" customer support. Luckly, I still have 3 for ME1. I bought those (and Dead Space) in retail versions only because I like having boxes (not to mention that I got the CE for Spore) and didn't have access to a card to buy them on Steam.

Modifié par Dethateer, 07 mars 2010 - 01:18 .

[DaveTheJackal]

Vash3283 wrote...

Ok it's a long rental. I have a 999 year lease on the ground on which my house is built. It's still a lease.

Once purchased, you keep it forever, not just 999 years.

The same for car manufacturers, artists, movie makers. anyone. Suck it up, it's called capitalism.

Exactly my point, which is why they can make methods to discourage resale.

It's a rental. I can't resell it. Anything I own I can resell. Sorry.

2 DLC packs, was it 2 maps. Not what was promised. We were promised expansions of the order that were provided for TF2.

Like you said though, that's not steams fault, the fact I can't resell the hunkojunk, is.

TF2 equivalent expansions were never promised, "Free DLC" was.

Definining Rental: Renting
is an agreement where a payment is made for the temporary use of a
good, service or property owned by another person or company.

Its not a rental, nor temporary, sorry. Lack of Resale or not, does not define something being a rental, having a game for 7 days and having to return it does.

RENTAL: Then the ME1 DRM protesters have nothing to complain about, since, by your definition, that's not rental either. Why do they protest ME1 and not L4D? You will see from here that though some definitions of rental include mention of a limited period, others don't. The difference between rental and ownership being that you pay for use of the item with rental, not the item itself.

L4D DLC: http://www.bit-tech....c-coming-soon/1

I could find videos of valve representatives saying stuff like "we're going to be producing plenty of free DLC over the next few months", if I could be bothered. 

[DaveTheJackal]

Vash3283 wrote...

DaveTheJackal wrote...

Dethateer wrote...

The fact that the EULA isn't enforced doesn't mean it can't be. It's still a legal document, just because it hasn't been used yet doesn't mean it never will. Bottom line, EA can deny you access to your games just as easily as Steam. Neither will ever do it on purpose, though.

True .... and yet ME1 gets something like 3/5 stars on amazon due to DRM protesters, and L4D gets something like 5/5... no DRM protesters. Why? That's what I was asking.

Because millions support and love L4D, and the only limitation steam gives is not being able to resale. Which doesnt seem to bother those millions.

And someone was arguing PC game buyers weren't unintelligent. PS that's also an argumentum ad polulum. Millions of people were ****s (wow it bleeps ****s, the name for the people who followed a guy with the initial A H)  in WW2. It didn't make them right.

Modifié par DaveTheJackal, 07 mars 2010 - 01:26 .

[Dethateer]

You're assuming the desire to resale your games is a sign of intelligence. In that case, my IQ is in the negative.

[DaveTheJackal]

Dethateer wrote...

You're assuming the desire to resale your games is a sign of intelligence. In that case, my IQ is in the negative.

You buy games twice and then return one without asking for a refund?

[Dethateer]

I don't return them at all. I keep them. Wait, why would I buy a game twice?

Modifié par Dethateer, 07 mars 2010 - 01:30 .

[Vash3283]

RENTAL: Then the ME1 DRM protesters have nothing to complain about, since, by your definition, that's not rental either. Why do they protest ME1 and not L4D? You will see from here that though some definitions of rental include mention of a limited period, others don't. The difference between rental and ownership being that you pay for use of the item with rental, not the item itself.

L4D DLC: http://www.bit-tech....c-coming-soon/1

You can sell your account, resale isnt completely void, its simply discourged and harder to do. Either way its not a rental.

I could find videos of valve representatives saying stuff like "we're going to be producing plenty of free DLC over the next few months", if I could be bothered.

You could. And their defination of plenty of free DLC could be what they released, which was more then 1 DLC and could be defined as plenty. I'm not saying it isnt a cheap copout but it doesnt break the law, or lie.

And
someone was arguing PC game buyers weren't unintelligent. PS that's
also an argumentum ad polulum. Millions of people were ****s (wow it
bleeps ****s, the name for the people who followed a guy with the
initial A H)  in WW2. It didn't make them right.

Just because you dont like something doesnt mean it isnt good. Also most PC gamers are intelligent with tech, they have to deal with alot more problems then Consolers do. (More complex then a red ring, send in and get a replacement)

Modifié par Vash3283, 07 mars 2010 - 01:32 .

[DaveTheJackal]

http://www.shacknews...article.x/54485

"The company plans to add new scenarios to the game's initial 4, as well as new bosses and weapons."

BS.

Modifié par DaveTheJackal, 07 mars 2010 - 01:36 .