132 réponses à ce sujet

[Impala]

I'll be 100% honest...I'm not too caught up with the mass effect lore. Since the Reapers are a mechanical AI race doesn't that mean that someone created them at one point in time? If i'm totally off base on this feel free to tell me.

[Kusy]

Nobody sayed they werent build by someone... just because a machine tells you that nobody created it doesn't mean it's telling you the truth, only a moron would belive that since as you pointed out - they are machines. Probobly will be explained in ME3.

[Sayantsi]

Yeah, at some point, someone built an AI machine, whether it was a Reaper or AIs evolved into Reapers, who knows. Reapers could have been built by other AIs.

[Karstedt]

I'm not 100% certain, but I don't think the reaper said nobody built it. I think it said something to the effect of, I am beyond your understanding. It was vague and haughty when it spoke with Shep.

[slyguy07]

It's full of crap. Esp. after the revelations in ME2. Just doesn't make it clear who built them.

[expanding panic]

I agree I thought that back in the first game. They were made by someone. But who that is the real question.

[Andorfiend]

Best evidence so far points to a race which at some point bootstrapped themselves into an uploaded existence as 'ghosts in the machine.' The machine in question being a hentai-class dreadnought. They then got lonely and decided that everybody else also needed to live like they did, like it or not. Yadda yadda yadda. Citadel, cycle, protheans you get the picture.

Modifié par Andorfiend, 06 mars 2010 - 05:25 .

[Karstedt]

Andorfiend wrote...

hentai-class dreadnought.

LOL!

[dietrichrieper]

Looking at the geth, as the other ai race in ME, there appearance is very similar to that of a quarian, which would make since since they made them, and like god they created life in their own image.
The old machines probably started out looking very similar to their creators, but over time changed themselves to be better at what they do.
They are now at the point where they see themselves as gods, and are therefore free too look like anything they want, since they can like god create themselves in their own image, which is anything they can think of.
But since they are machines(mostly?!) their  form should be determined by logic an efficiency, and so one may conclude that what they are at the moment is the most effective form to survive a million year space hibernation, and space travel.

This would also explain the revelations at the end of ME2:
spoiler warning!!! The reapers where defeated by the hands of humanity, humanity is taking control of the galaxy at an alarming rate, and not by playing nice.
reapers may have concluded that the  human form is they ultimate form fore  galactic conquest...

then again I might be wrong, and I hope bioware has a far better plot twist in mind:)

Modifié par dietrichrieper, 06 mars 2010 - 02:20 .

[Andorfiend]

Yeah, but I have issues with the whole 'humans taking over' thing. Any one of the Council races could slap us back to the stone age, let alone all of them. They are kinda like the Centauri from season 1 of B5. A galactic powerhouse that has allowed a recent setback to make them forget how strong they are. God help us if they ever remember and decide we need to be put in our place. Season 3 was not a good time to be a Narn.

[RavenholmeCP42]

Reapers don't have to have been made, it could be a case of technological transcendence/sublimation (To use an Iain M Banks/Culture Term), that is to say, a race turned themselves into machines, the first ones built by the race as flesh organics, the others by their newly ascended brothers.

[Andorfiend]

RavenholmeCP42 wrote...

Reapers don't have to have been made, it could be a case of technological transcendence/sublimation (To use an Iain M Banks/Culture Term), that is to say, a race turned themselves into machines, the first ones built by the race as flesh organics, the others by their newly ascended brothers.

I'm sorry, but I don't grasp any appreciable difference between that scenario and the meaning of the word 'made'. Truly. To my mind the alternative to 'made' is spontaneous self-assembly or evolution from something that spontaneously self-assembled. Like us.

[mnfdsnjklfdslkfds]

dietrichrieper wrote...


They are now at the point where they see themselves as gods, and are therefore free too look like anything they want, since they can like god create themselves in their own image, which is anything they can think of.
But since they are machines(mostly?!) their  form should be determined by logic an efficiency, and so one may conclude that what they are at the moment is the most effective form to survive a million year space hibernation, and space travel.

This would also explain the revelations at the end of ME2:
spoiler warning!!! The reapers where defeated by the hands of humanity, humanity is taking control of the galaxy at an alarming rate, and not by playing nice.
reapers may have concluded that the  human form is they ultimate form fore  galactic conquest...

then again I might be wrong, and I hope bioware has a far better plot twist in mind:)

I'm fairly convinced the Reapers see themselves as protectors of the Galaxy. In Tali's loyalty quest she mentions the dark matter accumulating in the sun. All tech is based off of reaper tech. And the use of this tech is accumulating too much DE (dark energy) and threatning the universe. The reapers need to destroy life to disengage the continued use of their tech which will evenvitably destroy the galaxy. This is why they do it every 50 000 years or so. Harbinger says he has to save them from themselves or something of the like.

Further, I think the Reapers became self aware, like the geth, and realized their former creators tech was accumulating too much DE and to protect the galaxy, destroyed their creators.

Modifié par mnfdsnjklfdslkfds, 07 mars 2010 - 12:17 .

[dietrichrieper]

[quote]mnfdsnjklfdslkfds wrote...


[/quote]

I'm fairly convinced the Reapers see themselves as protectors of the Galaxy. In Tali's loyalty quest she mentions the dark matter accumulating in the sun. All tech is based off of reaper tech. And the use of this tech is accumulating too much DE (dark energy) and threatning the universe. The reapers need to destroy life to disengage the continued use of their tech which will evenvitably destroy the galaxy. This is why they do it every 50 000 years or so. Harbinger says he has to save them from themselves or something of the like.

Further, I think the Reapers became self aware, like the geth, and realized their former creators tech was accumulating too much DE and to protect the galaxy, destroyed their creators.

[/quote]

That’s an awesome idea! sort of like the spirit of the forest, only on a galactic scale, and it touches upon a lot of modern day subject, like renewable energy and global warming, and it would explain why reapers want us to evolve along certain guided paths.
Then again why if, this is their reason for being, would they allow any form of 'life' they themselves are dependant on DE, and if they are the guardians of the galaxy, shouldn’t they realize they are putting of the inevitable?
and shouldn’t they accept the fact that the galaxy will eventually end?
believing that the gallaxy eventualy will end, compels the belief that the galaxy eventually will start,,,, like the reapers cycle suggests...hmm:huh:I'm confused...

[wyvernix]

My hypothesis was that the reapers were originally pure organic. Based on each major "civilization" that seems to have a golden age in the galaxy, they look toward "improving" and "rebuilding" these races into ultimate lifeforms, which is how they have sustained themselves for so long. As for how they originated...perhaps there was a civilization at one time that was based around technology, sort of like the quarians, that believed they could advance themselves beyond their races limits by expanding upon themselves with the very technology they sustained.

[Schroing]

Andorfiend wrote...

RavenholmeCP42 wrote...

Reapers don't have to have been made, it could be a case of technological transcendence/sublimation (To use an Iain M Banks/Culture Term), that is to say, a race turned themselves into machines, the first ones built by the race as flesh organics, the others by their newly ascended brothers.

I'm sorry, but I don't grasp any appreciable difference between that scenario and the meaning of the word 'made'. Truly. To my mind the alternative to 'made' is spontaneous self-assembly or evolution from something that spontaneously self-assembled. Like us.

By that definition, everything was "made." I think the implied difference in the context of this thread is that the Reapers' supposed creators were beings completely separate from themselves, the difference between the quarian and the geth, or a human and a sentient microwave, who rebelled or somesuch. While what Ravenholme - I think - is saying that that wasn't so much the case as the "creators" modified themselves gradually and to the point that they ascended to a reaper state.

I guess it's a thin (or even transparent) line, but it's an important one.

Modifié par Schroing, 07 mars 2010 - 05:49 .

[Andorfiend]

Ah. Well then yes I agree that the reapers were not so much designed by their creators as derived from them. However I don't think that's what the OP meant when she posed her question. And I agree with her as well that the Reapers had to be 'made' because a creature of steel, circuits and batteries cannot spontaneously arise the way a being of flesh and blood (or at least protoplasm and protein) can.

[TheLostGenius]

If you get 100% of the Keeper scans, Chorban emails you in ME2 and tells you that after he studied the wreckage of Soverign and compared it to the keeper scans, he knows that "whoever made the Keepers also made the Reapers". Which is a pivotal revelation that SOMETHING is behind the Reaper menace.

[Schroing]

Andorfiend wrote...

Ah. Well then yes I agree that the reapers were not so much designed by their creators as derived from them. However I don't think that's what the OP meant when she posed her question. And I agree with her as well that the Reapers had to be 'made' because a creature of steel, circuits and batteries cannot spontaneously arise the way a being of flesh and blood (or at least protoplasm and protein) can.

Well...

I'll be 100% honest...I'm not too caught up with the mass effect lore.
Since the Reapers are a mechanical AI race doesn't that mean that
someone created them at one point in time? If i'm totally off base on
this feel free to tell me.

The OP used both the words "AI" and "created," so I think what he/she's saying is -exactly- the question of whether the Reapers were or weren't, essentially, robots (helpers?) along the lines of the geth.
And...well, first of all, if we're going to be picky about word choice here, it should really be noted that nothing on the scale we're discussing "spontaneously arises," so far as we know. Life didn't just pop up out of the ocean, it was essentially the result of a specific mix of, what's the word...chemicals? Elements? Whatever. There was a cause, and there was an effect.
It should also be noted that Reapers are not creatures of steel, circuits, and batteries, they're creatures of steel, circuits, batteries, flesh, and blood. Maybe not specifically, but more or less they're a combination of organic and inorganic material (as they're often referred to in-game). What this thread is discussing is the exact nature of how that came to be; did they begin as machines who began to harvest organics for whatever reason, thus becoming as they are, as the OP is under the impression of, or did they begin as biological beings who altered their makeup to become what they are?
The question of whether or not they were specifically "made" is ultimately philosophical and thus answerless, coming down to the definition of evolution itself in the context of technology.
...Rambly rambly rambly.

[TheLostGenius]

It's revealed in ME2 that the Reapers were in fact created.

[Schroing]

TheLostGenius wrote...

If you get 100% of the Keeper scans, Chorban emails you in ME2 and tells you that after he studied the wreckage of Soverign and compared it to the keeper scans, he knows that "whoever made the Keepers also made the Reapers". Which is a pivotal revelation that SOMETHING is behind the Reaper menace.

Yes...the reapers themselves. Chorban isn't aware that Sovereign was a reaper; he refers to it specifically as a "flagship." He's under the impression that it's not a creature, but, well, just a ship, crafted in the same way that any other ship in the ME2 universe would be.
The reapers, obviously, bioengineered the Protheans into the Collectors in much the same way - if he ran similar scans on the Collectors, he'd have come to the same conclusion (that they have a common creator) while we all know which one made the other.

[Schroing]

TheLostGenius wrote...

It's revealed in ME2 that the Reapers were in fact created.

By other reapers. See above post.

[TheLostGenius]

Schroing wrote...

TheLostGenius wrote...

If you get 100% of the Keeper scans, Chorban emails you in ME2 and tells you that after he studied the wreckage of Soverign and compared it to the keeper scans, he knows that "whoever made the Keepers also made the Reapers". Which is a pivotal revelation that SOMETHING is behind the Reaper menace.

Yes...the reapers themselves. Chorban isn't aware that Sovereign was a reaper; he refers to it specifically as a "flagship." He's under the impression that it's not a creature, but, well, just a ship, crafted in the same way that any other ship in the ME2 universe would be.
The reapers, obviously, bioengineered the Protheans into the Collectors in much the same way - if he ran similar scans on the Collectors, he'd have come to the same conclusion (that they have a common creator) while we all know which one made the other.

No. He specifically states the Reapers and the Keepers share the same creators. He knew Soverign was a Reaper and says no one on the citadel will listen to him. Apparently you did not earn that email, and have no idea what you are talking about. :innocent:

[Schroing]

TheLostGenius wrote...

Schroing wrote...

TheLostGenius wrote...

If you get 100% of the Keeper scans, Chorban emails you in ME2 and tells you that after he studied the wreckage of Soverign and compared it to the keeper scans, he knows that "whoever made the Keepers also made the Reapers". Which is a pivotal revelation that SOMETHING is behind the Reaper menace.

Yes...the reapers themselves. Chorban isn't aware that Sovereign was a reaper; he refers to it specifically as a "flagship." He's under the impression that it's not a creature, but, well, just a ship, crafted in the same way that any other ship in the ME2 universe would be.
The reapers, obviously, bioengineered the Protheans into the Collectors in much the same way - if he ran similar scans on the Collectors, he'd have come to the same conclusion (that they have a common creator) while we all know which one made the other.

No. He specifically states the Reapers and the Keepers share the same creators. He knew Soverign was a Reaper and says no one on the citadel will listen to him. Apparently you did not earn that email, and have no idea what you are talking about. :innocent:

From: Chorban

I hope this address still works. I promised to send you intel on the
keepers if I found anything, and this is important. See, those scans
you took? It turns out the keepers are bio-engineered...and based on my
comparisons to some of that material from Saren's flagship Sovereign, they were engineered millions of years ago...by the same people who made Sovereign!



You may not understand how important this is, but it suggests that the Citadel wasn't really made by the Protheans! It may have been made by something far older,
with the keepers as organic guardians. And what's more, based on my
genetic readings, they're supposed to react to...something, some signal
or something...about every 50 thousand years. You can measure genetic
variances; it's a bit like comparing rings on a tree to see the drought
years.



Whoever did this...well, around the last time this signal went off
would be around the time the Protheans disappeared. And it's scheduled
to go off sometime around now. If any old tech still works, they could
have some nasty surprises waiting for us.



Just thought you'd want to know. Nobody here on the Citadel will listen to me.



-Chorban

Read it carefully, then read what I said carefully, then read it again.

[TheLostGenius]

Schroing wrote...

TheLostGenius wrote...

Schroing wrote...

TheLostGenius wrote...

If you get 100% of the Keeper scans, Chorban emails you in ME2 and tells you that after he studied the wreckage of Soverign and compared it to the keeper scans, he knows that "whoever made the Keepers also made the Reapers". Which is a pivotal revelation that SOMETHING is behind the Reaper menace.

Yes...the reapers themselves. Chorban isn't aware that Sovereign was a reaper; he refers to it specifically as a "flagship." He's under the impression that it's not a creature, but, well, just a ship, crafted in the same way that any other ship in the ME2 universe would be.
The reapers, obviously, bioengineered the Protheans into the Collectors in much the same way - if he ran similar scans on the Collectors, he'd have come to the same conclusion (that they have a common creator) while we all know which one made the other.

No. He specifically states the Reapers and the Keepers share the same creators. He knew Soverign was a Reaper and says no one on the citadel will listen to him. Apparently you did not earn that email, and have no idea what you are talking about. :innocent:

From: Chorban

I hope this address still works. I promised to send you intel on the
keepers if I found anything, and this is important. See, those scans
you took? It turns out the keepers are bio-engineered...and based on my
comparisons to some of that material from Saren's flagship Sovereign, they were engineered millions of years ago...by the same people who made Sovereign!



You may not understand how important this is, but it suggests that the Citadel wasn't really made by the Protheans! It may have been made by something far older,
with the keepers as organic guardians. And what's more, based on my
genetic readings, they're supposed to react to...something, some signal
or something...about every 50 thousand years. You can measure genetic
variances; it's a bit like comparing rings on a tree to see the drought
years.



Whoever did this...well, around the last time this signal went off
would be around the time the Protheans disappeared. And it's scheduled
to go off sometime around now. If any old tech still works, they could
have some nasty surprises waiting for us.



Just thought you'd want to know. Nobody here on the Citadel will listen to me.



-Chorban

Read it carefully, then read what I said carefully, then read it again.

Yes, and Soverign is a Reaper, and his study concluded that they were created by the same beings that created the Keepers. Whats not to get?