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The Reapers have to have been made...right?


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#26
Schroing

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The -reapers- created the keepers, first of all. That's just about spelled out to us in ME1 by the prothean VI.
Furthermore, did you not read what I said? He specifically refers to it as a "flagship." Never once does he use the phrase "Reaper," nor would he have any reason to be aware of Reapers. Shepard certainly never mentions them to him, nor are they ever brought out of "crazy conspiracy theory" territory im the general public, as Avena (Avina?) tells us.
The Reapers and the Keepers are made of the same technology because the Reapers used their technology to create the Keepers, just like they used it to create the Collectors.
I ask you, sir: What's not to get?

Modifié par Schroing, 07 mars 2010 - 09:46 .


#27
Weiser_Cain

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What if reapers aren't the machine but a set of forces related to Element zero reacting with organic beings? That might explain why a 'dead' reaper would dream.

What if Reaper technology leads to reapers in the same way that geth VI technology led to Geth AI? Maybe the use of reaper tech would lead to reapers one way or the other as the user race would eventually transform themselves into reapers?

#28
Weiser_Cain

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...I've clearly blown your collective minds.

#29
Schroing

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We are building a consensus. Try again later.

#30
Br34ch

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Not even looking at the ME2 spoilers (as I have ME2 gathering dust while I take the next few months preparing my characters and waiting for the waves of patches and DLC), the only thing revealed in ME1 is that: no one has a clue how the Reapers came to existence. Sovereign says they always existed (right). As to their motives, Saren mentions that the Reapers NEED organic life (for some undisclosed purpose). Given the context this need is not because Sovereign needed organics to find the conduit in that particular case, but they need organic life in general. Speculation mode back on.

#31
JMKnave

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The reapers are part organic and part machine. Nothing is mentioned about them being an AI.

Sovereign only mentions that they have always existed. Which is a turn of phrase only. They were obviously created by an older species. Whether it was due to AI evolving into reapers or that species evolving into the reapers themselves is never clarified. The reapers built the relays, the citadel, and genetically engineered both the keepers and collectors to carry out tasks for them. They need organic life to sustain themselves since organic "slurry" is used to create new reapers and that is why they cull the galaxy every 50,000 years.

The only other thing that Sovereign says about the reapers is that they are legion, a nation unto themselves. Which I would assume means that the reapers share a collective mind and perhaps the memories/culture of every other race they've culled over the millions of years.

#32
Schroing

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They were obviously created by an older species.




That's hardly obvious.

#33
JMKnave

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Schroing wrote...



They were obviously created by an older species.


That's hardly obvious.

It is very obvious.

Since things don't suddenly appear out of nothingness, they must've been created. And since they were created, they must've been created by something that came before them.

Unless you want to suggest that they suddenly materialized and then time-travelled backwards through time to before they initially materialized.Posted Image

Modifié par JMKnave, 08 mars 2010 - 03:45 .


#34
Schroing

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JMKnave wrote...

Schroing wrote...



They were obviously created by an older species.


That's hardly obvious.

It is very obvious.

Since things don't suddenly appear out of nothingness, they must've been created. And since they were created, they must've been created by something that came before them.

Unless you want to suggest that they suddenly materialized and then time-travelled backwards through time to before they initially materialized.Posted Image


That's an awfully large leap of logic, my friend. There's hardly only two options. I don't want to spend all night sitting here and listing things, though, so I'll keep it simple with my personal favorite; they very well could've evolved to their current state.
In fact, looking at your post again, you said that yourself.

Modifié par Schroing, 08 mars 2010 - 03:51 .


#35
JMKnave

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Schroing wrote...

JMKnave wrote...

Schroing wrote...




They were obviously created by an older species.


That's hardly obvious.

It is very obvious.

Since things don't suddenly appear out of nothingness, they must've been created. And since they were created, they must've been created by something that came before them.

Unless you want to suggest that they suddenly materialized and then time-travelled backwards through time to before they initially materialized.Posted Image


That's an awfully large leap of logic, my friend. There's hardly only two options. I don't want to spend all night sitting here and listing things, though, so I'll keep it simple with my personal favorite; they very well could've evolved to their current state.
In fact, looking at your post again, you said that yourself.

It's not a large leap at all. I listed it in two steps. You may wish to count them.

And are you really trying the old "context of the english language" routine? Evolve, develop, create, etc. There are many english words that could mean the same thing given the context they are used in. In this case though, organics don't naturally evolve into cyborg (part organic/part machine) forms. Therefore some "creation" would have to be involved in the case of the reapers.

#36
Schroing

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It's not a large leap at all. I listed it in two steps. You may wish to count them.


...That's nice. Do you know what a "leap" is? Just wondering.

And are you really trying the old "context of the english language" routine? Evolve, develop, create, etc. There are many english words that could mean the same thing given the context they are used in. In this case though, organics don't naturally evolve into cyborg (part organic/part machine) forms. Therefore some "creation" would have to be involved in the case of the reapers.


We're having a discussion. We're having that discussion in the english language. If you can't use the correct words to convey your thoughts, you should at the very least be aware of that fact and be honest about it as opposed to your current behavior. "Creation," in this case, is the wrong word. Try a different one.
Now, for what you're attempting to say; no, it wouldn't. The word "natural" is philosophically meaningless. A human (or "pre-reaper") changing its state with materials that'd fall under the definition of "machines" is essentially indistinguishable from the adaptation of a cell, or in a game-relevant case, the vorcha in all respects but scale.

#37
Andorfiend

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I have to agree with the Knave. The word created applies to something new. The fact that the new thing in part derives from an elder thing does not detract from it's newness. I could for example decide to create a new breed of dogs. I would not start with hydrogen and an atom smasher and make myself some shiny new atoms to do so. I would not even build my own DNA sequence by sequence although that's technically feasible now. I would select some dogs that posessed some of the traits I wanted and breed towards my goal. Once I had it I would keep breeding to clean up the genetics and after about 13 generations (I don't know the AKC regs off the top of my head) I could register my breed and it would officially be a new breed of dog. The fact that it derived from Chihuahuas and Shar-peis doesn't matter, it's considered new and I created it.



The leap from Hanar to cyber-hanar to Hentai-class battleship is a whole order of magnitude bigger than that. Let's pretend TIM goes ahead and makes a human-reaper. That Reaper in no way, shape or form fits the definition of human. It does not belong to our species. It is something new. And it was created. The fact that the materials derived from humans does not matter any more than you can claim I did not create a table because it's really just a reshaped tree.

#38
Schroing

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Andorfiend wrote...

I have to agree with the Knave. The word created applies to something new. The fact that the new thing in part derives from an elder thing does not detract from it's newness. I could for example decide to create a new breed of dogs. I would not start with hydrogen and an atom smasher and make myself some shiny new atoms to do so. I would not even build my own DNA sequence by sequence although that's technically feasible now. I would select some dogs that posessed some of the traits I wanted and breed towards my goal. Once I had it I would keep breeding to clean up the genetics and after about 13 generations (I don't know the AKC regs off the top of my head) I could register my breed and it would officially be a new breed of dog. The fact that it derived from Chihuahuas and Shar-peis doesn't matter, it's considered new and I created it.

The leap from Hanar to cyber-hanar to Hentai-class battleship is a whole order of magnitude bigger than that. Let's pretend TIM goes ahead and makes a human-reaper. That Reaper in no way, shape or form fits the definition of human. It does not belong to our species. It is something new. And it was created. The fact that the materials derived from humans does not matter any more than you can claim I did not create a table because it's really just a reshaped tree.


...Uh...actually...

#39
Andorfiend

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Schroing wrote...

...Uh...actually...


If you want to continue the discussion I'm gonna need more to work with. As rebuttals go that was kind of lacking. Posted Image

#40
Astranagant

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RavenholmeCP42 wrote...

Reapers don't have to have been made, it could be a case of technological transcendence/sublimation (To use an Iain M Banks/Culture Term), that is to say, a race turned themselves into machines, the first ones built by the race as flesh organics, the others by their newly ascended brothers.


That's still being "made." Intent and purpose aren't relevant to the simple fact that machines have to be made by something, they're not naturally occurring phenomena. Computers aren't mined or grown, they're manufactured.

#41
RAIDENKUN

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I don't think arguing the semantics of "development" versus "creation" helps either argument. Ultimately the two apparent explanations for the Reapers' existence fall to either the Reapers were created by their makers (as the Geth were created by the Quarians) or the Reapers are their makers (developed gradually over time - which does fit the definition for evolution, maybe not exactly as Darwin envisioned it, but still... - with inorganic enhancements).

I don't believe that anyone is arguing that Reapers crawled out of a cesspool 50 billion years ago and evolved into giant metal crawfish. Obviously machines require assembly. However the question remains, is there a Reaper blueprint sitting around in a file cabinet somewhere, or were they a product of a technological singularity?

#42
Andorfiend

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I think even if they are the product of a singularity (and I think it's obvious they are) there is still a blueprint somewhere. Cybernetics are not subject to evolution. My dad has an artificial shoulder made from ceramic and titanium, it even reverses the shoulder's normal ball and socket construction. Does this made him a cyborg? Sure I guess, if you squint really hard. But I'm not going to grow a titanium shoulder later in life, nor will my kids inherit one from granddad. If I'm going to get an artificial joint later in life it will be seperately designed and made and bear no relation to his, aside from a possible genetic predisposition to torn rotator cuffs.

Modifié par Andorfiend, 10 mars 2010 - 03:23 .


#43
Schroing

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Andorfiend wrote...

But I'm not going to grow a titanium shoulder later in life, nor will my kids inherit one from granddad. If I'm going to get an artificial joint later in life it will be seperately designed and made and bear no relation to his, aside from a possible genetic predisposition to torn rotator cuffs.


That's nice, and it's also not evolution.

#44
Davescarface

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Personally I will be disappointed in the story if it does turn out that the Reapers were created by aliens in our own galaxy. It just seems so less epic too me if they were made by somebody else :( I like the idea better where they do not originate from our galaxy at all. But they evolved into machines themselves someplace else in the earlier universe. Why do we really need to understand everything about their origins anyway? Sometimes its better when things like this stay a bit of a mystery. And you can't always get the answer to everything in real life anyway.

Modifié par Davescarface, 11 mars 2010 - 12:12 .


#45
JMKnave

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Schroing wrote...




It's not a large leap at all. I listed it in two steps. You may wish to count them.


...That's nice. Do you know what a "leap" is? Just wondering.




And are you really trying the old "context of the english language" routine? Evolve, develop, create, etc. There are many english words that could mean the same thing given the context they are used in. In this case though, organics don't naturally evolve into cyborg (part organic/part machine) forms. Therefore some "creation" would have to be involved in the case of the reapers.


We're having a discussion. We're having that discussion in the english language. If you can't use the correct words to convey your thoughts, you should at the very least be aware of that fact and be honest about it as opposed to your current behavior. "Creation," in this case, is the wrong word. Try a different one.
Now, for what you're attempting to say; no, it wouldn't. The word "natural" is philosophically meaningless. A human (or "pre-reaper") changing its state with materials that'd fall under the definition of "machines" is essentially indistinguishable from the adaptation of a cell, or in a game-relevant case, the vorcha in all respects but scale.

My words are correct and accurate. You're simply looking for things to present as false where nothing exists so that you may continue your forum trolling. And fyi, I quoted "" the word creation to make it easier for you to pick out and use in your context-twisting forum game. I see that I have succeeded.

The question from the OP and the basis for the thread was: Were the reapers made or not? I have shown logically in two steps that yes they could very well have been created. I have also shown that the english language and words, as you say, can be used to mean different things. You claim to be part of the thread discussion and yet you have not shown anything to the contrary to go with your snide remarks of my argument.

This is what you must do:

1. Prove that something can materialize out of nothing.
2. Prove that an organic/machine hybrid organism can come to be or "evolve" without being created by something else.
3. Prove that something can be created from something that is younger in age than it is.

Here's a hint though to save you some time. Physics has a thing or two to say about Point #1 and Point #2. And I haven't read any scientific studies to show anything of Point #2 ever existing in nature.

Thank you for your time and I wish you good luck sir/madam in your trolling and bid you adieu from this thread.

Modifié par JMKnave, 11 mars 2010 - 02:01 .


#46
Andorfiend

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Schroing wrote...

Andorfiend wrote...

But I'm not going to grow a titanium shoulder later in life, nor will my kids inherit one from granddad. If I'm going to get an artificial joint later in life it will be seperately designed and made and bear no relation to his, aside from a possible genetic predisposition to torn rotator cuffs.


That's nice, and it's also not evolution.


Yes, I know. That was my point, I'm glad you understood.

#47
ure7

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I'm sure that our questions will be answered come ME3, but a friend of mine and I have a theory:

In Science-fiction, there is this idea on the different stages that life goes through; that we start off organic, then, over the course of thousands of years and technological advancement, we 'transcend' to cybernetics, and finally, after a time, we 'transcend' to become beings of pure energy.

Our theory is that the Reapers were once another organic race like anyone else, but that they were the first to achieve the greatest of technological advancement in the galaxy.  That they achieved the cybernetic stage of life, in which they became part organic, and part machine.  But they didn't stop there.  They wanted to achieve the ultimate transcendence and become beings of pure energy, without form or restraint.  Being the most advanced race in the galaxy, they were determined to become gods.
My friend and I's theory goes on to explain that now that the race (which would be known as Reapers) had achieved cybernetics, they continued to build and add on to themselves.  And in an attempt to achieve the ultimate unity and 'become one,' they began melding themselves together.  And after countless years of building and combining themselves, they became vast living ships.  "We are each a nation," (described by Sovereign) and "One will, but many minds," (as described by Legion).  This was probably their way of laying down the first foundation stone for the next stage of transcendence--energy.  Trying to go beyond the bounds of physical limitations.

This concept (organic to cybernetic, to energy) and also the concept of living ships have been in science-fiction for quite some time.

But the Reapers ran into a dilemma--they could no longer reproduce.  But they weren't going to allow such an obstacle get in the way of their 'transcendence."  They wouldn't allow their vastness, power, and their entire race die out because of this one obstacle.  And I doubt it was an overlooked mistake, they probably felt such sacrifices had to be made for the sake of science and transcendence to the status of "god."

Thus they began their galaxy-wide harvesting of other organic beings in order to build more Reapers and become one step closer to that final stage.  They didn't believe what they were doing was wrong; this was for the good science and organic life.
As is stated by Harbinger, "We are the Harbinger of their perfection."

Thus the cycle of extinction began.  All for the benefit of the Reapers.  But, of course, if they wanted to continue and advance, they had to make sure life could begin anew so that they may continue to harvest.  Thus they built the Citadel and the Mass Relays so that life would "...evolve along the paths that [they desired]..." giving the races of the galaxy the tools needed to advance to the appropriate point that they'd be acceptable for harvest and cultivation.
Heck the name "Reaper" itself suggests this.  The definition of the word "Reaper" is this:
"One that reaps; esp.: any of various machine for reaping grain."

Using their ability of "indoctrination," (and who knows how they came by this) they brain-washed organic beings into aiding them in the harvesting and building process.
And in doing this "more times then [anyone] can fathom," they have probably forgotten who they are, or were.  They probably genuinely believe they are gods and that this is their right.  All that is left of them is their large ego.
But though they have been doing this for supposedly billions or trillions of years, they don't seem to be any closer to achieving that final stage of life, but that certainly hasn't stopped them from pressing on anyway.

Anyway, that's my friend and I's theory on the origins of the Reapers.

Modifié par ure7, 12 mars 2010 - 12:54 .


#48
cowboyp97dc

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This is just my theory and I could be wrong, but I believe that the "Reapers" were the final ultimate weapon used in a vast conflict turned "cold war" turned "hot".  The universe is composed of many, many galaxies separated by what many have call the void- ie dark space.  My theory is that Millions of years ago, possibly more, there were two mega powers that existed in two separate galaxies.  Each of these races were the strongest and most advanced race in their particular galaxy.  As they grew more technologically advanced they found a way to travel to neiboring galaxies and discovered each other.  Much like the first contact between the Alliance and Turians the first contact didnt go well and one side opened fire on the other.  Being relatively evenly matched the war ground down into a long standing cold war with both sides fearful of the other and what the other side might do if they became stronger (much like the cold war between the USA and USSR).  This cold war lasted until the one side (not in the Milky Way) built the ultimate weapons- the Reapers.  After a long hard struggle that side won.  The winning side, maybe a little fearful of their own creations after watching them decimate a race as powerful as themselves, reprogramed and repurposed them probably going so far as to erase their existance from the Reapers memory cores.  The repurposed Reapers new mission is to scout the Milky Way galaxy and invade it every time a species reached a certain point of advancement, thus ensuring they would not become to technolgically advanced so they would never discover their neibors in the other galaxy. This would also ensure the Reapers would be easily able to wipe them out replacing any lost ships by using the resources left behind by the fallen organic races and the organics themselves.  Over millions of years of wiping out lesser races and with no known race being as powerful as them the Reapers would have developed "god complexes" but have this need to continue destroying organic civilizations in the Milky Way (due to their hardwire programming).  This would explain why the Reapers do what they do and why no one has ever found any trace of the civilization who but the Reapers (ie even the Reapers don't know they exist).  I know that Mass Effect was supposed to only be 3 games but this would open the door to a fourth game or even more because after we defeate the Reapers their creators would become a threat.  I love Mass Effect and would love to see 2 or 3 more games in this series!!

#49
cowboyp97dc

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Just wanted to add I really liked ure 7's theory- in my theory the reason why the Reapers built the citadel and mass relays was so they could replace the few casualities they would encure in the next invasion process. No matter how technogically superior a foe is they will still lose a few ships here and there- even if it on the scale of 100 to 1 they will still lose that 1 ship that will have to replace it- and their "reproduction process" that we saw the collectors doing is how they replace their fallen and keep their numbers strong. By ensuring organic species technology is based on theirs it simplifies the process.

#50
Schroing

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Before I actually start saying things relevant to this argument, I just wanted to let you know that I've been passing this around via emails and the like to a few friends. You don't object, do you? It's just that they needed a good laugh.

JMKnave wrote...

My words are correct and accurate.


They're drenched in arrogance, maybe, but the above certainly isn't true.

You're simply looking for things to present as false where nothing exists so that you may continue your forum trolling. And fyi, I quoted "" the word creation to make it easier for you to pick out and use in your context-twisting forum game. I see that I have succeeded.


A nice observation; you accuse me of trolling, and then - immediately after - say that you were, in fact, just trolling me all along. Not in the same words, of course, but...it's just pretty lulzy.

I have also shown that the english language and words, as you say, can be used to mean different things. You claim to be part of the thread discussion and yet you have not shown anything to the contrary to go with your snide remarks of my argument.


I'm afraid that you simply don't understand how discussions, and language, work. In order for a discussion to take place, there needs to be a consensus on language. If you speak French and I speak German, it'd be near impossible for us to discuss anything beyond the most basic of matters.
The same conundrum occurs when people are speaking the same language - more or less, anyway - and one of them uses a word of that language incorrectly. Like, for example, you.

Uses a word like "create" in an innacurate manner in a discussion such as this one causes very large misunderstandings and disagreements that pull the discussion away from its original purpose.

This is what you must do:

1. Prove that something can materialize out of nothing.
2. Prove that an organic/machine hybrid organism can come to be or "evolve" without being created by something else.
3. Prove that something can be created from something that is younger in age than it is.

Here's a hint though to save you some time. Physics has a thing or two to say about Point #1 and Point #2. And I haven't read any scientific studies to show anything of Point #2 ever existing in nature.

Thank you for your time and I wish you good luck sir/madam in your trolling and bid you adieu from this thread.


Why, exactly, should I do any of this?  This is a philosophical discussion, not a biological one. Here, read up.

http://en.wikipedia....i/Transhumanism
http://en.wikipedia....ki/Posthumanism
http://en.wikipedia....osthuman_future

Replace "human" with "reaper," if you want.