114 réponses à ce sujet

[sherlockholmes47]

I too think Shape shifter needs some restructuring done. It's a waste to spend your points on those abilities.



@DSerpa : Nice suggestions. Bioware developers should really consider them.

[magnabob1]

Amen, all. The casting time issue is bad but the last time BW fixed casting time, they made Cone of Cold almost useless. The idea of using spellpower as a stat boost is great-- a la arcane warrior?

[Erucolindo]

I tried Morrigans shapshifting the first time I played here in Redcliff Castle..never again for the very reasons you all have pointed out.



If i remember from the live chat, they said they wouldn't add more powers or whichever, but that doesn't end hope for the changes the OP has suggested.



Once you shapeshift, do you have to toggle it off or does it wear off? If the first is true, then at the very least you can get survival, so you know when enemies are coming or are around the corner, and you can shapshift before you attack. Maybe they didn't intend, for some reason, that shapshifting be used mid-battle?



However, in the cutscene that was used to promo the game, Morrigan shapeshifted instantly into a spider..so...



I know Arcane warriors can use there magic rating to allow them to wear armor, i wonder how it would work with shapeshifting?

[Nic-V]

I think they need to allow us to heal and our stats should change radically when transforming.

--SPOILER--



Why was Flemeth so strong as a dragon if her stats where practically the same? xD It doesn't make sense.



--SPOILER--

[JigPig]

Here's to hoping that shapeshifter mod works on awakening

[CybAnt1]

There's shapeshifter mods that meet all those criteria -- i.e. instantaneous casting time, no need to amp STR for your shapeshifts (I personally don't get why once you're in the form of a bear you don't have a bear's strength, simply by making the shift) (although there are some who appear to agree with the dev. decision to make shapeshifter build amp STR as a focus).



Would be nice to see some developer redesign rather than relying on mods.



And of course there are mods that add a variety of forms. While I agree the three beast forms are kind of limited (and I didn't realize how cool Flying Swarm really was, esp. until I tried as Master Shapeshifter), on the other hand there are shapeshift mods that let you turn into High Dragons and Revenants. Come on, that doesn't fit the lore for the spec and yes that's overpowering. There needs to be a happy medium.



IF they're going to continue to not let you use healing potions or use magic while shapeshifted, I sure wish there were more healing options in the game, like wands or staves of healing that could heal others, or bandages you could use to bandage others. And again I would be more OK if with that design there were a bit more "creature form unique" abilities you could use in lieux of your own human form ones, like a WoW-style self-regeneration one, and creature self-buffs.



Also, a few more forms. I would say, given the lore surrounding it, shapeshifter should only let you change into beasts, not undead, not high dragons, etc. But there could be some other choices besides the swarm, the bear, and the spider. Like a wolf. Or a panther with stealth. I promise I won't ask for flight or aquatic forms (would be meaningless in this game).

[Diogo Gomez]

I'm a rougue not a mague so that wouldn't make any difference to me... But I think they could put some more shapes. Shapeshifter had what shapes?? Spider, bear and taht bug thing?? I think they could put like wolfs, some sort of little phenix, or a lion.

[TBastian]

http://www.sorcerers...ead.php?t=51020

The Shapeshifter doesn't need to be "fixed" because there's nothing wrong with it. Short of a few exploits, but everyone uses the stamina=mana regen bug anyway.

Modifié par TBastian, 07 mars 2010 - 07:47 .

[Feraele]

Agreed I have mentioned this a couple or three times, I don't think they're listening to be honest...how's this:



Shapeshifter TOO SQUISHY..make them more viable..please and thank you

[TBastian]

Reliance on which bugs? The author didn't actually tell anyone to rely on any bug. The Overwhelm exploit is basically skill-weaving (which any good two-hander will tell you they use), and don't be naive and think that none of the "stronger" mage builds do not rely on the stamina=mana regeneration bug. AW's would have a hard time casting without it. The advantages of properly-used Shapeshifter talents far outweighs the disadvantages, in my opinion. Especially since there are basically no disadvantages - you lose the ability to cast and use items while shifted, yes, but you wouldn't have shifted if your spells/items where actually useful in the first place. Or do you deny that there are some situations where your mage is reduced to a pure healer, or auto-attacking with  his staff?
Why spam heal when you can kill the threat outright? Note that a recent patch no longer allows elite monsters to be shattered.

"Barely" function? I'm outdamaging Alistair and doing just as much damage as a berserk Oghren in my current game and you say the spec "barely" functions? Just how are you using your forms? Granted, Oghren is an NPC so it will take him another few levels or so to really hit those shocking 100+ numbers, but that my Bear was able to keep up with him at all says a lot about form DPS. He will outdamage me soon, but I'll be perfectly content to just use my forms for when my warriors need the extra melee help when that time comes.
The one serious Shapeshifter bug is the "true" Overwhelm bug, which the author recently added.

I think the author actually advocates a pure magic/semi-pure magic build, since he doesn't go much into particular equipment/sets str or dex Shapeshifters would find useful. Most of the tactics he presents are also for magic-based Shapeshifters.

The Shapeshifter is far from being squishy. I currently have a Shapeshifter with Reaper's Vestments, Spellward and Lifegiver at level 15 (no money bug, just save - Shapeshifter save a lot on mana pots), and by no means is he "squishy" while shifted. Especially after I gave him Spirit Healer talents.

Modifié par TBastian, 09 mars 2010 - 10:06 .

[TBastian]

Ok... I think you're referring to some other guide. Because everything you said you wanted from the Shapeshifter is answered by the link I posted.
If you've misunderstood something then ask and maybe I can explain it. I think the author of that guide automatically assumed that his readers had knowledge of game math and mechanics.

Modifié par TBastian, 10 mars 2010 - 12:42 .

[CybAnt1]

The essential advice in the guide is if you want to be a shapeshifter and not pump up your STR, you should carry around Ser Jory's greatsword for the rest of the game.



OK. That almost makes sense. I would give it cheese factor +1.



Game mechanics that require cheese to be viable could probably use improvement. I use the shapeshifter mods. I wish there was an option for the console gamers.

[TBastian]

Let me get this straight.

You would gimp your Shapeshifter (a self-professed warrior-mage specialization, read it in the wiki) simply because you won't touch warrior/rogue items. Even when you only need to add a mere 6 points in strength to have a very wide selection of warrior gear in vanilla DA:O. Even when with only those 6 points so you can make the Shapeshifter not only a viable, but powerful specialization in DA:O. And even when someone comes up with a way to make a pure magic build work, you won't acknowledge it simply because you refuse to equip warrior items.
You would do all that, and then complain to Bioware that the specialization is broken.
So... Bioware deals with this everyday? Their customer support people must be saints.

The essential advice in the guide is if you want to be a shapeshifter and not pump up your STR, you should carry around Ser Jory's greatsword for the rest of the game.

OK. That almost makes sense. I would give it cheese factor +1.

Don't play smart and put things out of context. The guy discovered a way to make a pure magic build Shapeshifter work, and that is by using a particular no-strength requirement item for a large part of the game (by end game, you should be able to buy enough +all stats gear to equip better ones). How do you think pure Arcane Warriors/Blood Mages/Spirit Healers work? Isn't it by also depending on particular items? "Overpowered" Arcane Warrior builds in fact take things one step too far by relying on a bug (mana=stamina) to make them work.

Don't be a hypocrite.

Modifié par TBastian, 10 mars 2010 - 03:29 .

[Alodar]

Georg had a mod that made the shapeshifting instant.

I got about half way through with my shapeshifter and found that I was dead by the time I had shifted in too many battles so I put the character on the shelf for a while.

When I downloaded Georg's instant shapeshifting it made the class very enjoyable for me.

Making the casting time instant was really all that was necessary to make this into an excellent specialization, IMHO.

Alodar

[CybAnt1]

You would gimp your Shapeshifter (a self-professed warrior-mage specialization, read it in the wiki) simply because you won't touch warrior/rogue items. 

Well, for a long time I wondered why I wasn't doing much damage in shapeshift form, now I read in his guide (thank you) that if you're holding a staff (well, gee, that's all all my mages EVER hold, the only one I even bothered to give a melee weapon was the AW) your damage is essentially fist damage, and you automatically hit, but never critical. 

Otherwise, melee damage for bear/spider (not flying swarm) is based on STR (which DOES increase when shifted based on your spellpower - OK that DOES make sense; however, not as rapidly as DEX/CON) but calculated .... from your base weapon damage? 

Now guy: I'm sorry ... I just don't get this, not from a "power" perspective, but a "logic" perspective. If I turn into a grizzly bear, I am big & strong and have razor sharp claws. Why should the damage those claws do be based on whether I was holding a sword or not before I shifted? Like they get sharper because I was holding a sword beforehand? I don't get it. 

So... Bioware deals with this everyday? Their customer support people must be saints.

It's a forum, buddy. People discuss things on a forum, even argue about them. Do you see anybody calling customer support? 

I absolutely agree the STR-amping/based shapeshifter-should-be-carrying-around-a-greatsword-BEFORE-shifting is not a "bug". It's not something they screwed up accidentally. So nobody should call it a "bug" requiring fixing. The other guy who wrote a shapeshifting guide says it was a design decision. And I agree it is a design decision; question is can we disagree with design decisions? I think I disagree with this one. 

So it comes down to two things. 1) thank heaven for moddable games, the people who don't agree with design decisions like this one (and I don't) can turn to mods that change them. 2) unfortunately that leaves the console players with no option. 

Don't play smart and put things out of context.

I think you're missing the point, friend. I have zero problem with the guide writer. He came up with a good solution to a game mechanic problem (don't want to pump up your STR as a mage-shapeshifter, here's your solution). 

No, it's that the nature of the game mechanic requires cheese like that, in order to work. That in order to have a mage that, well, fits my idea of a mage (which is not somebody carrying around a greatsword and with a STR of 36) and be a shapeshifter, I need to turn to cheese (carry around Ser Jory's sword the entire game). 

I understand you think this mechanic makes sense. I don't. I can turn to a mod that changes it. Others can't. In the end that's what I guess the discussion is about.

[CybAnt1]

Oh and mod makers -- instead of focusing on making more forms, I actually agree with others in this thread. It would be cool to see more abilities for the existing forms. I'm thinking particularly some kind of self-speed-buff for the spider, and a self-heal for the bear. (Unless the game devs. want to do this, too.)



I don't think the spec is "broken". But I do think these things would make it better.

[Manatel]

I won't exactly say shapeshifter is broken, all you have to do is have enough magic to learn the spells you want, and then get as much as possible in strength (imo you don't need more dexterity and stamina than what is provided by the shape).



BUT, I think it would make more sense if you didn't need to go for strength, and that the strength you have in other shapes is based only on spellpower. And with the new respec tomes, it wouldn't be a problem for shapeshifters that have specced into strength if this change was made.



Probably too late for Awakening release, but this would be welcomed in a patch.