114 réponses à ce sujet

[CybAnt1]

BUT, I think it would make more sense if you didn't need to go for strength, and that the strength you have in other shapes is based only on spellpower.

Your STR *is* based on your spellpower. So the higher your spellpower, the higher STR a bear you are when you become a bear. A STR 10 mage is not turning into a STR 10 bear if he has 20 spellpower. That makes sense, and that's the way things work (according to both guides I've now seen).

So ... there's a different, bizarre reason why you have to amp STR to be a good shapeshifter. Your damage as a bear is based on what weapon you were holding before you become a bear.  Ergo, you probably need to have enough STR to wield a decent greatsword or maul before you shift. Not only that, but that means you also always have to remember to switch from your staff (which most mages on the planet have as the only weapon they're carrying around) to that weapon before you shift, or your shift forms' melee damage are based on fist damage & can't critical. 

I see this as illogical. As always, no one has to agree with me, but I still see at as illogical. 

[hexaligned]

Shapeshifter is fine, the only tweek it needs is to have the casting time reduced/removed. People just make the mistake of trying to build it like a caster mage.

[CybAnt1]

... it's fine if you think it's logical that a spider's mandibles are stronger if the human form of the spider was holding a maul rather than a dagger ... or that a bear's claws are sharper if the human form of the bear was holding a greatsword rather than a staff ... it just makes no sense to me.



No I get it. They wanted shapeshifter to be a mage build that focuses on other stats. But come on. Have you looked at Morrigan? She looks a bit tough to me, you have to be to live out in the wilds.... but she doesn't exactly look like a bodybuilder that could out-benchpress the Governator, now does she?



You can raise Morrigan to have a STR of 36 ... but she sure doesn't look like she should be that strong.



I again assert it is pure logic: there is no reason I can think of why a form's damage should be dependent on the weapon you were holding before assuming that form. Other than to make sure that because shapeshifters are capable of melee, we'll come up with some artificiality to make sure they put points in other things besides magic so they won't be as good casters as others.

[hexaligned]

Why should it be logical? I sort of leave logic at the door when I sit down to play a fantasy rpg, I don't consider being able to manipulate the ether or whatever mages do to set people on fire is the logical outcome of wiggling their fingers  around either.

In the Dao universe your shifted shape's str is dependant at least partly on your own physical str.  That isn't anymore of a stretch of "logic" than anything else that happens in the game.

Modifié par relhart, 10 mars 2010 - 05:45 .

[CybAnt1]

In the Dao universe your shifted shape's str is dependant at least partly on your own physical str.  

Except that it isn't. (Well it is but it isn't.)

From the guy's guide:

Shapeshifting replaces your mage's strength, dexterity and constitution attributes with those of your chosen form's. If any of your attributes were originally higher, then those attributes will be used instead.

[snip]

These are the base attributes of the forms:Spider, Str: 11 + (level x 0.5), Dex: 15 + (level x 1.25), Con: 12 + (level x 1)Bear, Str: 13 + (level x 1), Dex: 15 + (level x 1), Con: 15 + (level x 1.25)
[snip]

("level" here does not mean character level, it means shapeshifting level, which is determined by dividing your spellpower by 5, and adding +2 if you have Master.) 

So in fact, your STR as a human does not affect your STR as a bear or spider unless you increase it beyond what it would normally become using this formula, which is only based on your spellpower. Point being: you can still become a stronger bear by amping spellpower, which for me is just fine. 

No, the only quirky aspect of shapeshifting (from my POV), is this idea that your base damage as a bear or spider is being based on what weapon you were holding before becoming a bear or spider (so's your armor rating, deriving from the armor you were wearing, but people seem to care less about that). #1, this is illogical, and #2, it's the only reason that forces the shapeshifter to increase STR (because they need it to wield decent 2H weapons). 

Perhaps you get my point. Unless you're really determined to increase STR faster than spellpower, which is bizarre for any mage build, you might as well keep increasing spellpower. You'll still be a stronger bear. 

Unfortunately, because you didn't put points into human STR and carry around a maul all the time, that STR bonus is being added to a crappy base damage, now that you've shifted. I mean, how many people knew, before reading one of these guides, that if all you were using was a staff (which is what I guarantee 95% of mages who are not AWs are using), when you become a bear, you do fist dam (i.e. nothing), plus STR bonus (which at least is better than what I thought), and can't get critical hits? Granted: the special attacks, like Overwhelm, are still fearsome no matter what. 

Simple point: just don't base base damage on the weapon you were holding before shifting. Determine melee base damage for the forms from shapeshifter level, just like you do attributes. I'd even settle for the same kind of compromise which is that if you had a weapon before shifting and its base damage was higher than what you'd get from the form, then that base damage kicks in instead (thus incentive for those who want their shapeshifters being badasses running around with greatswords even if they're not AWs but are shapeshifters in human form). Now we have both things working the same way. Capiche? 

(BTW I'm using a mod that does this already -- but I'm simply, to borrow a word very current on the forums, "justifying" its logic.) 

Modifié par CybAnt1, 10 mars 2010 - 06:48 .

[TBastian]

Then I apologize for attacking your opinion. I was under the impression you were saying it a matter of fact-ly.

No, I am simply very annoyed that someone who would want to play a warrior-mage wouldn't want to touch melee weapons at all even when what he wanted to improve was his fighting side. And complain to Bioware on top of everything? It seems so... contradictory. Even an AW must make sacrifices, armor-wise. Why not the Shapeshifter, when it's barely even enough to be a "sacrifice" at all?

Modding I approve of, especially the type of fix you mentioned, since it's basically just customization - a circumvention of the rules for the sake of personal taste, and with similar results as the original. But asking for an official fix?

Modifié par TBastian, 10 mars 2010 - 07:19 .

[Big_Choppa]

As of now, the shifter really sucks. But if you're on PC you can just get some mods to make the class spec more bad ass. I feel sorry for you console owners out there.

[CybAnt1]

No, I am simply very annoyed that someone who would want to play a warrior-mage 

Full stop: the Arcane Warrior is a warrior-mage. Yes, I know the gamelore says so is the Shapeshifter. Except, I don't get it. Nothing about being a Shapeshifter makes you any better at human-form melee combat (ok, well, other than that for many it's forcing them to amp stats they wouldn't otherwise touch). So, grok my point. In order to be good at fighting as a bear or a spider, you either

a) do a lot of weapon switching between your staff and Ser Jory's sword (or whatever else) and make sure you're always holding the sword right before you shift ... 
run around with a greatsword or maul ALL THE TIME ... despite the fact that you've now lost your staves' ranged attack and in human form you'll only hit something with it once in a blue moon and mostly look like a joke compared to the warriors & rogues so why exactly are you doing this again anyway? 

Yeah it's kind of whacky ... you're a melee beast in human form with overpowered Arcane Warrior, but if you chose Shapeshifter, you're made to melee in human form ... crappily ... just so that in beast form you can melee ... decently. 

But asking for an official fix? 

It's not a big deal for me. I participate in these threads to give modders ideas, honestly. Most of the shapeshifting mods are focusing on adding new forms (not that I mind but it seems some have gone overboard), not tinkering with the base mechanics. The instantaneous cast is a fix you can get from several different ones. I haven't found one that alters base damage in the way I just suggested above. Nor one that adds abilities to the bear & spider forms. 

I'm not begging for the devs. to do anything. Unfortunately, yes, I do feel sorry for people playing this on gaming consoles. They don't have my solution. So I can sympathize with why they plead. 

[TBastian]

I wasn't referring to someone with your opinions, btw.

[Manatel]

CybAnt1 wrote...

Your STR *is* based on your spellpower. So the higher your spellpower, the higher STR a bear you are when you become a bear. A STR 10 mage is not turning into a STR 10 bear if he has 20 spellpower. That makes sense, and that's the way things work (according to both guides I've now seen).

Yes that is true. But your magic score doesn't make your bear as strong as it would have been if you build for strength. The strength you have in shape is only based on spellpower if that strength is higher than your normal strength.

70 magic gives you a bear with 27 strength and 20.4 dmg (naked).
70 strength gives you a bear with 70 strength and 47 dmg (naked).

That is why I said that I think i would make more sense if the strength in shape was based only on spellpower, and that your human/elven strength didn't matter at all. And maybe use a different formula, 70 magic -> 70 strength in shape. That way you wouldn't need high strength as a shifter.

[TBastian]

That would make it overpowered. 70 strength is much too high. The forms already retain the damage modifier and base damage of the weapon the mage had equipped before shifting, only attack speed is ignored in favor of the forms' better ones.
27 strength becomes 37 with Rage, higher if with +spellpower items. I think I should be able to reach around 90 for my present game, and along with +strength bonuses from items like Key to the City I might be able to reach high 50's to 60+ strength. 50+ more likely.
For a pure magic mage, don't you think that's already a bit excessive?

Modifié par TBastian, 10 mars 2010 - 08:39 .

[Manatel]

Yes that would probably be a little overpowered, considering how your other spells would be better. But I still think it should be more than 27.



But I already have fun with my strengt based shifter, so I'm not that upset. It just feels a bit weird.

[TBastian]

I felt the same when I tried one, to be honest.
It's would definitely be overpowered, 70+ strength is 600+ damage with a single Overwhelm (Bear's).

Modifié par TBastian, 10 mars 2010 - 08:55 .

[CybAnt1]

Yes that would probably be a little overpowered, considering how your other spells would be better. But I still think it should be more than 27.

Here's my formula. Just throwing it out for thought. A bear is always strong, right? Have you ever run into a weak grizzly bear? (The ones I know in the real world could easily rip a man in half.) However, obviously, as your magical power is improving, your bear-strength should be improving. 

The base STR of the bear form is 20 if you have Master Shapeshifter (bereskarn). Always. Doesn't matter if your human strength is 10 or 15. That's the floor. To that we had not 1/5 but 1/3 of your spellpower. So a spellpower of 48 would raise the STR of your bear form to 36 (+16). I agree a bear with a STR of 70 is ridiculously overpowered. Hell, I don't ever remember raising any warrior's strength much past 42. 

Base damage for the bear form is ... 9.0/longsword strength if you are regular, 14.0/maul strength if you have master (bereskarn). You can always critical. You must always roll to hit (that downgrades one aspect). It doesn't matter whether you were holding a staff, a sword, or two coconuts before you shift into bear form. Those bonuses don't carry over, neither does previous base damage. 

BTW, I also think that the bear form should be more heavily armored, and the spider form faster/more able to dodge, again, than whatever your human form was before, again basically ignoring whatever armor you were wearing before you shifted. The bear form should be more heavily armored the higher your spellpower, and the spider form faster/better able to dodge, likewise. I won't throw out any numbers for that but that's how it should work (imho). 

Basically ... the bear is your tank form, the spider your DPS form. Bear is heavily armored/high HP, attacks slow but for heavy damage; spider is higher dodge/defense but attacks faster with more attacks (less damage/attack but makes up for it in quickness). Higher spellpower = each form gets better at what it does. Makes sense to me. 

And flying swarm ... I love it ... but it works on a completely different mechanic than either bear/spider (I love it because it doesn't require you to pump STR or carry a greatsword, to me for a long time it was the only form out of the trio I was using because of that.) 

[CybAnt1]

It just feels a bit weird.

Arcane warrior also feels ... awkward to me, also. The one multi-class I never played in D & D was fighter/magic-user. The two things didn't seem to go together. 

Yes, it's overpowered. That issue aside. Great. Now your magic substitutes for your might, and you can wear all that massive armor and wield a giant maul. I still think it doesn't "feel" right to be a mage doing that. You don't "look" like a mage once you're wearing all that armor ... you look like a warrior. 

This is why so many mods introduce custom arcane warrior gear that help you get the benefits of the specialization without looking like ... something other than a a mage. Yes there's the spellsword in the game, so you have a weapon tailored for you. Just no other gear. That keeps most peoples' mages looking like ... mages. 

Personally, I'd rather that the specialization do something slightly different: that when you activate your arcane warrior ability, magical energy forms the magical "armor" around your body (basically for the period of time the ability is active, your cloth gear is replaced with spirit-energy-armor that blocks like heavy armor but isn't actually made of physical matter), and a magical Fade sword (which you generate) appears in your hand. Maybe it should even be able to leave your hands, a la Dancing Sword ... That just feels more ... "magelike" to me. 

Again, suggestion for the modders out there, or just ignore my ramblings. 

[TBastian]

Full stop: the Arcane Warrior is a warrior-mage. Yes, I know the gamelore says so is the Shapeshifter. Except, I don't get it. Nothing about being a Shapeshifter makes you any better at human-form melee combat (ok, well, other than that for many it's forcing them to amp stats they wouldn't otherwise touch). So, grok my point. In order to be good at fighting as a bear or a spider, you either

And that is where our opinions diverge. The Shapeshifter is indeed a warrior mage - the spec bonuses are a testament to this, besides the background of the magic (it was originally practiced by barbarians). Morrigan and Flemmeth also relate that Shapeshifting is not something you learn by study, it is something you learn by doing, by understanding other creatures and learning their ways.
Spec-wise, Spirit Healer and Blood Mage are already polar opposites. Once relies on power from demons, one from the "good" spirits of the fade. One takes life, one can give it back. Arcane Warrior and Shapeshifter should be similar, unless the developers simply decided that Shapeshifter is supposed to be the odd man out. This is very unlikely, since two out of three Shapeshifter forms are physical combat-based.

Modifié par TBastian, 11 mars 2010 - 07:13 .

[Gaudion]

TBastian and others are missing the point entirely.

It was said earlier: the Shapeshifter is a specialization intended to augment the Mage class. Instead, in order to get the most (see also: anything at all) out of it, it must completely consume its parent class by gear and by stat. The issue of whether or not the specialization can be made useful by abusing game mechanics to their utmost is not the purpose of this thread.

A shapeshifting Mage has, at present, two choices: be a good Shapeshifter (which, to be honest, is not even that great to begin with when one could just as well have gone ahead with a Warrior or Rogue) and a poor Mage, or be a good Mage and a completely worthless Shapeshifter. This is a choice that no other specialization/class combination in the game is forced to make.

Modifié par Gaudion, 11 mars 2010 - 07:29 .

[Manatel]

CybAnt1 wrote...

The base STR of the bear form is 20 if you have Master Shapeshifter (bereskarn). Always. Doesn't matter if your human strength is 10 or 15. That's the floor. To that we had not 1/5 but 1/3 of your spellpower. So a spellpower of 48 would raise the STR of your bear form to 36 (+16). I agree a bear with a STR of 70 is ridiculously overpowered. Hell, I don't ever remember raising any warrior's strength much past 42. 

Hehe yeah I know 70 str is a bit much 

Just used it as an example. First loaded my own shifter, which had a str of 43, and tried to see how much magic I needed to top that. Not even 100 magic was enough, so I used another game as an example, where Morrigan had 70 magic. And therefore compared to 70 str

[TBastian]

It was said earlier: the Shapeshifter is a specialization intended to augment the Mage class. Instead, in order to get the most (see also: anything at all) out of it, it must completely consume its parent class by gear and by stat. The issue of whether or not the specialization can be made useful by abusing game mechanics to their utmost is not the purpose of this thread.

So the AW also doesn't count as a specialization? Nice. By gear? The AW... nope. Shapeshifters...yes, and no. By stat? Pure magic and semi-pure magic Shapeshifters are viable..check. AW... check. The Shapeshifter actually wins by half a yes.

Abusing game mechanics? Laughable. If that were indeed the case you'd think Bioware would have actually either a) fixed the Shapeshifter or b)fixed those mechanics. They have done neither, and so far they have already released three or so patches, several DLC's, not to mention that Awakening is already looming. And it has already been confirmed -several, not once but several times- that the Shapeshifter is not broken.. So I ask you. Who is actually guilty of abusing the game mechanics here? Abusing them by not actually using them, due to your misconceptions that the specialization should work your way, when it obviously does not? When Bioware has already made it clear that it should not?
May you somehow find your "fix" elsewhere.

A shapeshifting Mage has, at present, two choices: be a good Shapeshifter (which, to be honest, is not even that great to begin with when one could just as well have gone ahead with a Warrior or Rogue) and a poor Mage, or be a good Mage and a completely worthless Shapeshifter. This is a choice that no other specialization/class combination in the game is forced to make.

As far as you know, you mean.

Modifié par TBastian, 11 mars 2010 - 09:20 .

[Axekix]

Shapeshifting needs some serious love. Instant cast shifting, and better stat scaling/more attacks in animal form would go a long ways. Shapeshifters atm are little more than second rate warriors/rogues.

[ladydesire]

Why are the people that want Shapeshifter "fixed" ignoring the fact that every Mage (and Warrior\\Rogue) specialization does impact the base class in a negative fashion, to some extent. Without mods, there is no Arcane Warrior specific gear, so that specialization is weaker than a pure mage; Blood Mage and Spirit Healer also affect some aspect of the Mage class.

[Addai]

It's hard to believe that someone in Origins beta testing didn't realize how useless Shapeshifting is.



It could have been awesome if you had limited spellcasting ability. How terrifying would it be for an enemy to encounter a spellcasting giant spider? It's not as if the mage loses his/her abilities in animal form- obviously they are using those abilities to maintain the form.

[Gaudion]

TBastian wrote...

So the AW also doesn't count as a specialization? Nice. By gear? The AW... nope. Shapeshifters...yes, and no. By stat? Pure magic and semi-pure magic Shapeshifters are viable..check. AW... check. The Shapeshifter actually wins by half a yes.

Abusing game mechanics? Laughable. If that were indeed the case you'd think Bioware would have actually either a) fixed the Shapeshifter or b)fixed those mechanics. They have done neither, and so far they have already released three or so patches, several DLC's, not to mention that Awakening is already looming. And it has already been confirmed -several, not once but several times- that the Shapeshifter is not broken.. So I ask you. Who is actually guilty of abusing the game mechanics here? Abusing them by not actually using them, due to your misconceptions that the specialization should work your way, when it obviously does not? When Bioware has already made it clear that it should not?
May you somehow find your "fix" elsewhere.

As far as you know, you mean.

Have you ever attempted seriously to play a Shapeshifter? A Shapeshifter who still tried to be an effective Mage on the side? Based on your replies--especially the fact that you can compare a SS with an AW, the undisputedly most overpowered specialization/class combo in the game, and actually suggest that the SS is superior--I'm guessing you haven't, which actually fills me more with a kind of amused pity when you personally insult the people who don't agree with you rather than the agitation I'm sure you hoped I would feel.

A Mage who pumps melee stats and wears melee gear is not going to be as effective a spellcaster as one who pumps magic stats and wears actual Mage gear. There's no "as far as anyone knows" necessary to justify that. It should be common sense.

Imagine, if, as an Arcane Warrior, magic did not convert to strength and you had to pump strength to wear the armor of your choice. Let's further imagine that AW didn't have that one specific sword made for it, so you'd want to use the best available weapon. So you'd be pumping your strength up somewhere between 31-42, which is a pretty significant investment of stats that could have otherwise gone to your magic score. No, I'm afraid that there is not a direct comparison between AW and SS in which the SS comes out on top in any way. And I didn't even mention the fact that an AW can run around meleeing and casting as it pleases whereas the SS may only do one at a time. Again, the AW does not consume its parent class; it augments it. The same can not be said of SS. SS does nothing for the Mage outside of SS forms, and SS forms cannot become useful without completely overhauling the Mage.

You'll note that I never said the class was broken, and I've no misconceptions about the class working my way. But the idea that it couldn't be working better just because Bioware has done nothing about it to date is a weak argument at best. Considering that spellcasting and SS forms are mutually exclusive, the specialization could stand to be far more accomodating than it is right now.

[Addai]

CybAnt1 wrote...

Arcane warrior also feels ... awkward to me, also. The one multi-class I never played in D & D was fighter/magic-user. The two things didn't seem to go together. 

Why??  To me, the Warden mage should be a battlemage.  An AW combined with either Spirit Healer or Blood Magic seems to me to be the most natural of combinations for a fighting spellcaster.

Perhaps I'm influenced by Oblivion, where I generally play some form of battlemage.  It absolutely feels right for me to be casting fireballs one minute and chopping off heads the next.

And if you're a pure mage, are you ever going to get a great kill like this? 

This is why so many mods introduce custom arcane warrior gear that help you get the benefits of the specialization without looking like ... something other than a a mage. Yes there's the spellsword in the game, so you have a weapon tailored for you. Just no other gear. That keeps most peoples' mages looking like ... mages. 

Why must mages wear robes?  That makes no sense to me.  I generally equipped a staff and wore armor, so I think my AW does look like... well, like what she is.  A spellcasting fighter:

Personally, I'd rather that the specialization do something slightly different: that when you activate your arcane warrior ability, magical energy forms the magical "armor" around your body (basically for the period of time the ability is active, your cloth gear is replaced with spirit-energy-armor that blocks like heavy armor but isn't actually made of physical matter)

Shimmering Shield does what you suggest (if I understand what you're suggesting).  You certainly could wear robes and still be an Arcane Warrior.  Personally, I would take Arcane Warrior just so that I don't have to wear mage robes.

Modifié par Addai67, 11 mars 2010 - 07:58 .

[MelodicCure]

Arcane Warrior is friggin' awesome!. The Shape-shifter specialization is kind of weak sauce because not only do I lose my healer mage in order to transform (single mage user here) I lose my spells to become a not so great fighter form.