114 réponses à ce sujet

[MelodicCure]

Arcane Warrior is friggin' awesome!. The Shape-shifter specialization
is kind of weak sauce because not only do I lose my healer mage in
order to transform (single mage user here) I lose my spells to become a
not so great fighter form.

Modifié par MelodicCure, 11 mars 2010 - 08:08 .

[TBastian]

Have you ever attempted seriously to play a Shapeshifter? A Shapeshifter who still tried to be an effective Mage on the side? Based on your replies--especially the fact that you can compare a SS with an AW, the undisputedly most overpowered specialization/class combo in the game, and actually suggest that the SS is superior--I'm guessing you haven't, which actually fills me more with a kind of amused pity when you personally insult the people who don't agree with you rather than the agitation I'm sure you hoped I would feel.

Yes, I have. And the fact your experience with the Shapeshifter has been so bad and you would use that a basis for arguing with me is... amusing. Very.
It's also very amusing that apparently you do not even how Shapeshifter works, or what its mechanics are. And you didn't even bother to read all previous posts, besides. A Shapeshifter does need to "pump" strength, heh. "Raising it a little" would be more appropriate, in the same way a Blood Mage player might decide to raise Con a bit, a Spirit Healer would raise Willpower, an AW would raise dex... it's something that helps a lot in early game, but not so much in late game.
To top it all off, you go on about how every other spec augments its base class etc etc. While correct, the fact that you think the Shapeshifter doesn't do the same is proof of your ignorance. For someone who would claim that the Shapeshifter needs work, have you even bothered to try and find out how it actually worked? Because you just might find out for yourself that the Shapeshifter doesn't actually need fixing.

You'd think that a specialization who claims to be a a) a warrior-mage, practiced by barbarian shamans, c) is learned by practice rather than study would be fine wearing non-mage gear, heh. In the end though, you might not even want to use anything but mage gear at all.
The consensus that the Shapeshifter is underpowered is due to its obscure mechanics. Nothing more. Feel free to keep your ignorance though, apparently you're quite comfortable with it... seeing as you didn't even bother to read some of the stuff posted and you're adamant that the Shapeshifter should work your way. Even when all evidence points to the fact that it apparently shouldn't.

Modifié par TBastian, 11 mars 2010 - 09:26 .

[Mavkiel]

Shapeshifter is very much underpowered. The only other conclusion I can think of is that the other mage speclizations is overpowered. There is little to no reason to pick shapeshifting other then to pounce on an enemy every now and then.

 If anyone suggests you need to pump str to make shapeshifter worthwhile, then I suggest to you that the class is broken. Strength is pretty much a junk stat for mages. Blood mages on the other hand have con (Increase base hp, have more hp to draw on for mana). Arcane warriors use magic skill to increase their abilities (if I recall right). Either of those speclizations lead to a longer lasting mage. Strength on the other hand leads to one very gimpy mage.

Modifié par Mavkiel, 11 mars 2010 - 09:34 .

[MelodicCure]

You guys can talk all your strategy and defend the specialization all you want but unless you are playing weak sauce difficulty on a weak sauce lame console you probably don't notice how much Shape Shifter actually sucks.  Playing as a tactician on hard or worse with a new character in DA transforming your mage into a stupid bear will borderline spell out your doom.  I don't know about him but I know how shape shifter works and don't see great advantages in it at all.  Weakest of all mage specializations period.  At least with the rogue summons you don't actually lose the rogue for the durations of the combat.

So if you are defending the specialization please be so kind as to post a strategy with a shape shifter first...than I can go test it on hard difficulty and see if you aren't just running around waving a BS flag.

Modifié par MelodicCure, 11 mars 2010 - 10:01 .

[Manatel]

Well I play on nightmare, and I have no problems with shapeshifter. Actually the fight against the high dragon was one of the easiest I have had (except for arcane warrior, wich almost felt like cheating).



And shapeshifter is probably the most fun I've had with this game.

[Gaudion]

TBastian wrote...

Gaudion wrote...

Have you ever attempted seriously to play a Shapeshifter? A Shapeshifter who still tried to be an effective Mage on the side? Based on your replies--especially the fact that you can compare a SS with an AW, the undisputedly most overpowered specialization/class combo in the game, and actually suggest that the SS is superior--I'm guessing you haven't, which actually fills me more with a kind of amused pity when you personally insult the people who don't agree with you rather than the agitation I'm sure you hoped I would feel.

Yes, I have. And the fact your experience with the Shapeshifter has been so bad and you would use that a basis for arguing with me is... amusing. Very.
It's also very amusing that apparently you do not even how Shapeshifter works, or what its mechanics are. And you didn't even bother to read all previous posts, besides. A Shapeshifter does need to "pump" strength, heh. "Raising it a little" would be more appropriate, in the same way a Blood Mage player might decide to raise Con a bit, a Spirit Healer would raise Willpower, an AW would raise dex... it's something that helps a lot in early game, but not so much in late game.
To top it all off, you go on about how every other spec augments its base class etc etc. While correct, the fact that you think the Shapeshifter doesn't do the same is proof of your ignorance. For someone who would claim that the Shapeshifter needs work, have you even bothered to try and find out how it actually worked? Because you just might find out for yourself that the Shapeshifter doesn't actually need fixing.

You'd think that a specialization who claims to be a a) a warrior-mage, practiced by barbarian shamans, c) is learned by practice rather than study would be fine wearing non-mage gear, heh. In the end though, you might not even want to use anything but mage gear at all.
The consensus that the Shapeshifter is underpowered is due to its obscure mechanics. Nothing more. Feel free to keep your ignorance though, apparently you're quite comfortable with it... seeing as you didn't even bother to read some of the stuff posted and you're adamant that the Shapeshifter should work your way. Even when all evidence points to the fact that it apparently shouldn't.

Hypocrisy is a virtue to the ignorant and the blind.

You criticize everyone else for even having an opinion--along with criticizing the person himself, which I hope you'll note no one else in this thread is doing--and accept your own as indisputable fact. If you spent less time as a hostile, self-righteous know-it-all trying to "win" this thread, people might take you more seriously. As it is, I don't find myself believing you've ever seriously invested yourself in the specialization.

I have. I've played an SS both with my PC, who has the benefit of the stat-boosting essences in the fade, and with Morrigan, who does not. And I do understand how the specialization works, which is precisely why I know that it could work much better.

Consider this: other than a concept character, the only reason to pick a SS as opposed to any incarnation of a Warrior or Rogue is for the access to the base abilities of the Mage class. But when the value of the Mage is grossly diminished in the effort to strengthen the specialization's value, then you're left with a character who is both weaker than a pure Mage and weaker than a true melee class. And since you can only have one active at a time... Why choose it at all?

Modifié par Gaudion, 11 mars 2010 - 10:10 .

[AlanC9]

I'm going to have to back CybAnt1's objections to the mechanics here. And to the documentation -- they should have shown Morrigan equipping a greatsword and armor before transforming if that's actually how it works best. But of course, that would have looked silly.



As for balance, I don't really see the case for a problem. 20 STR is easy enough to get, and you get better defense even when you're not shifting. Aesthetically, I'm not big on armored mages, but that's not the same thing as an actual balance problem.

[Addai]

TBastian wrote...

The consensus that the Shapeshifter is underpowered is due to its obscure mechanics. Nothing more. Feel free to keep your ignorance though, apparently you're quite comfortable with it... seeing as you didn't even bother to read some of the stuff posted and you're adamant that the Shapeshifter should work your way. Even when all evidence points to the fact that it apparently shouldn't.

So tell us what we're missing?  I'd be happy to find out I'm wrong about the specialization, and admit I haven't used it, because on its face it strikes me as gimping my party to lose a mage's spellcasting ability no matter how awesome a melee fighter they make.  An AW can do both cast and fight melee, with some limitations.

[this isnt my name]

They need new forms to make it worth it e.g ogre, golem, dragon...

[TBastian]

Read_the_previous_posts.
I have all the right to act self-righteous, since if *some* people took the time to actually read the previous posts they'll realize that I've been repeating the same message for the past oh 5-6 posts.

Especially since I took the time to read and digest everyone else's, I think I have every right to feel angry when people just come along and post their opinions as if the previous 3 pages of arguing never happened.

But that's people who just love to stick to their misconceptions for you. Skim/read the previous 1-2 posts, formulate a half-baked opinion + a few hours worth of Shapeshifter experience and voila, you're an expert. Wow. And to think I had to spend weeks of actually trying the spec out for myself and sorting through gobs of Shapeshifter code and dozens of "guides" to actually arrive at my conclusions. Nice.

Modifié par TBastian, 12 mars 2010 - 02:17 .

[Havokk7]

TBastian wrote...
No, I am simply very annoyed that someone who would want to play a warrior-mage wouldn't want to touch melee weapons at all even when what he wanted to improve was his fighting side.

My thought is that a shapeshifter is not a warrior/mage - she's a mage who turns into a warrior. Sometimes she's a mage, sometimes she's a warrior. She is not both at the same time.

Basing damage and protection on the gear the mage is wearing before she shifts form means that I am forced to build her as an effective warrior in mage form. What I end up with is a character who is a mage/warrior some of the time and a warrior some of the time. That's not what I want. If I wanted that I would be an arcane warrior.

Or to put it another way, what does shapeshifter give you that arcane warrior doesn't? If there isn't anything then it fails as a specialisation.

B

[Axekix]

Havokk7 wrote...

Or to put it another way, what does shapeshifter give you that arcane warrior doesn't? If there isn't anything then it fails as a specialisation.

B

Much less flexibility and value as a party member? 

I dunno what TBastian is on about.  He actually thought a SS would out damage a dps focused warrior in another thread until that got shot down. 

Honestly, the spec needs help.  Equipping "warrior gear" is a waste because a warrior would put it to far better use.  The spec should be viable on its own, and mesh better with the default class.

[CybAnt1]

I think the KEY fix is to no longer make the spider/bear form's base damage based on the weapon you're holding before shifting. So much so, I've put a request down on the Toolset forums for somebody to start working on this.



BTW, this is what's wonderful about a moddable game. We don't all have to agree. I agreed from early on that the class is not "broken". **This is the way Bioware wants it to work**. It would be nice if that were a little more obvious... it's not like Morrigan THE SHAPESHIFTER comes to you wearing chainmail and holding a greatsword. And some people are willing to make it work based on the way Bio want to make it work.



For those of us who don't, there's mods, and so I'm asking a modder to do it. The instant cast issue's already been tackled - I'd like to see a mod deal with this.

[Gaudion]

CybAnt1 wrote...

... the class is not "broken". **This is the way Bioware wants it to work**. It would be nice if that were a little more obvious... it's not like Morrigan THE SHAPESHIFTER comes to you wearing chainmail and holding a greatsword. And some people are willing to make it work based on the way Bio want to make it work.

Right.

I said as well that while the specialization can be made to work, it's still awkward at best. Switching between casting and shifted forms is neither practical nor efficient, neither mode accels if you try to do both, and builds are simply... well, again, awkward. You wear non-Mage gear, pump non-Mage stats, and/or try to circumvent the problem by wearing a low-quality 2H weapon with the peculiar quirk of lacking a STR requirement.

Right now it really feels like you have to "outsmart" the game in order to make the specialization work, which is why what I worded as an abuse of mechanics can be easily seen as broken.

Modifié par Gaudion, 12 mars 2010 - 11:20 .

[DKJaigen]

TBastian

Your wrong and shapeshifters need to be fixed. and thats about as much effort i want to invest in you because your not worth it.

[Tusbat]

CybAnt1 wrote...

I think the KEY fix is to no longer make the spider/bear form's base damage based on the weapon you're holding before shifting. So much so, I've put a request down on the Toolset forums for somebody to start working on this.

I agree with you and I think that either this is a bug among many other bugs Bioware has failed to fix in MONTHS or this is an example of horrible game design. An explanation from the devs would be great.  Bioware shouldn't rely on the modders to fix things like these, it's not like DA was a commercial failure and they can't spend time & money to further fix it. If the things stay the same way I won't be buying Awakening and I advise people who're bothered by these bugs to do the same. 

[Manatel]

Love it that people who failed to use shapeshifter successfully claim that people who have succeeded are wrong...

Roleplaying-wise I also would prefer that it would be changed, but claiming that shapeshifters are broken and useless is just ignorant.

Modifié par Manatel, 12 mars 2010 - 10:30 .

[Axekix]

Manatel wrote...

Love it that people who failed to use shapeshifter successfully...

Where did you get that?  No one is saying you can't beat DA with a shapeshifter.  Hell if the game can be done solo on nightmare, pretty much anything is possible.

That doesn't mean SS is fine.  SS can't compete with melee classes in dps, and loses all mage utility when shifting (and wastes half the fight casting shift to begin with...).  If that's not broken/useless then what is?

[Manatel]

Do you honestly mean that shapeshifters should be able to compete with pure melee classes in dps?



Then I can agree with your arguments. I personaly think that would be overpowered.



What I like with my shapeshifter is how I use the brilliant crowd control spells mages get, and then combine it with the strengths you have in shapes. I have only chosen a few direct damage spells, and mostly focused on force field, crushing prison, blood wound, etc. And I absolutely love it.



But, as I have said earlier, it feels a bit weird to use heavy armor and to focus on strength. And I wouldn't oppose a change. But the shapes to compete with warrior/rogue dps? No I wouldn't welcome that.

[TBastian]

Basing damage and protection on the gear the mage is wearing before she shifts form means that I am forced to build her as an effective warrior in mage form. What I end up with is a character who is a mage/warrior some of the time and a warrior some of the time. That's not what I want. If I wanted that I would be an arcane warrior.

That's what weapon switching is for.

Or to put it another way, what does shapeshifter give you that arcane warrior doesn't? If there isn't anything then it fails as a specialisation.

Damage? Warrior talents? Form immunities? Non-dependency on sustaineds? No fatigue when casting?

I dunno what TBastian is on about. He actually thought a SS would out damage a dps focused warrior in another thread until that got shot down.
Honestly, the spec needs help. Equipping "warrior gear" is a waste because a warrior would put it to far better use. The spec should be viable on its own, and mesh better with the default class.

Ah yes. Out-of-context-guy. Considering your comment I see you haven't grown the necessary grammar comprehension and topic association skills yet, as well not having actually tried out well-built Shapeshifter. Too bad.

I said as well that while the specialization can be made to work, it's still awkward at best. Switching between casting and shifted forms is neither practical nor efficient, neither mode accels if you try to do both, and builds are simply... well, again, awkward. You wear non-Mage gear, pump non-Mage stats, and/or try to circumvent the problem by wearing a low-quality 2H weapon with the peculiar quirk of lacking a STR requirement.
Right now it really feels like you have to "outsmart" the game in order to make the specialization work, which is why what I worded as an abuse of mechanics can be easily seen as broken.

Wearing non-mage armors say what? You don't have to.
You do know that that's only an opinion? Because unless you're a Bioware employee, your opinion is only as good as the guide-maker's/CybAnt1's/mine/etc.
In case you're wondering, Bioware actually considered the weapon a Shapeshifter would be using prior to shifting. This is why a form using a staff never misses when Shapeshifted - there is a code that checks for it.
Shapeshifting is also unique since the fact that the forms ignore almost all offensive mods is unique to it. Someone actually took pains to prevent the Shapeshifter from abusing +damage mods.

@DKJaigen
Poor you.

I agree with you and I think that either this is a bug among many other bugs Bioware has failed to fix in MONTHS or this is an example of horrible game design. An explanation from the devs would be great. Bioware shouldn't rely on the modders to fix things like these, it's not like DA was a commercial failure and they can't spend time & money to further fix it. If the things stay the same way I won't be buying Awakening and I advise people who're bothered by these bugs to do the same.

They haven't bothered to fix it because THEY SEE NO PROBLEM WITH IT. Bioware has made this clear many times (and now I am again repeating myself). How can you possibly still say it's a bug when the developers themselves have made it clear that it's not?
Really, and all this time no one else has ever wondered why? And maybe actually tried playing the spec and learning how it works while they were at it?

Where did you get that? No one is saying you can't beat DA with a shapeshifter. Hell if the game can be done solo on nightmare, pretty much anything is possible.
That doesn't mean SS is fine. SS can't compete with melee classes in dps, and loses all mage utility when shifting (and wastes half the fight casting shift to begin with...). If that's not broken/useless then what is?

Ignorance alert. Would be fine it were the "as far as I know anyway" type, but as you can see he's rather full of himself. And unfortunately I haven't seen him repeating the same message for the last 3 pages.

Modifié par TBastian, 12 mars 2010 - 10:09 .

[ladydesire]

TBastian wrote...

In case you're wondering, Bioware actually considered the weapon a Shapeshifter would be using prior to shifting. This is why a form using a staff never misses when Shapeshifted - there is a code that checks for it.
Shapeshifting is also unique since the fact that the forms ignore almost all offensive mods is unique to it. Someone actually took pains to prevent the Shapeshifter from abusing +damage mods.

Which makes Shapeshifter the DA equivalent of the D&D Druid in Wildshape, since the Wildshaped Druid benefits from whatever weapons were in use prior to the change.

I agree with you and I think that either this is a bug among many other bugs Bioware has failed to fix in MONTHS or this is an example of horrible game design. An explanation from the devs would be great. Bioware shouldn't rely on the modders to fix things like these, it's not like DA was a commercial failure and they can't spend time & money to further fix it. If the things stay the same way I won't be buying Awakening and I advise people who're bothered by these bugs to do the same.

They haven't bothered to fix it because THEY SEE NO PROBLEM WITH IT. Bioware has made this clear many times (and now I am again repeating myself).
Really, and all this time no one else has ever wondered why? And maybe actually tried playing the spec and learning how it works while they were at it?

I think the operative phrase is "working as intended", despite the wishes of those that want it to work differently.

[TBastian]

I'll defer to that, thanks.

Modifié par TBastian, 12 mars 2010 - 10:10 .

[Ahisgewaya]

Bioware, please fixe the Shapeshifter! Don't listen to the idiots saying it's just fine. It's not just fine, it's broken as hell. There are a few small thing which would fix it, chiefly making the casting time instant (or at least assuring us that the mod currently available to let us do so will be useable in Awakening). This would make it a much more viable option, as would making damage be based on spellpower LIKE IT SAYS IT DOES IN THE GAME (it actually doesn't, which is obviously a glitch and needs to be fixed, I was very dissapointed with this last patch because it didn't fix or even address this problem).

[Manatel]

Hehe, as with all internet arguing, this will end up as









But I must say, there is one thing that annoys me with shifters. Whenever a cut-scene is coming, I unshift and wait for the cooldowns to reset. It would be lovely if you unshift after a cut-scene, that the cooldown for the shape you were using would automatically reset. Watching the screen for 90 seconds get surprisingly boring after a while :-)

[Manatel]

Ahisgewaya wrote...

Bioware, please fixe the Shapeshifter! Don't listen to the idiots saying it's just fine. It's not just fine, it's broken as hell. There are a few small thing which would fix it, chiefly making the casting time instant (or at least assuring us that the mod currently available to let us do so will be useable in Awakening). This would make it a much more viable option, as would making damage be based on spellpower LIKE IT SAYS IT DOES IN THE GAME (it actually doesn't, which is obviously a glitch and needs to be fixed, I was very dissapointed with this last patch because it didn't fix or even address this problem).

Ah here we go again. I'm obviously an idiot because I can get the current shapeshifter to work.

Modifié par Manatel, 12 mars 2010 - 10:44 .