114 réponses à ce sujet

[Ahisgewaya]

How do you get it to be useful to you without a mod? I sure would like to know. And I am including the mod that reduces casting time.

And I don't mean survive the game, I mean how do you find it to be just as enjoyable and fun as the Arcane Warrior, Blood Mage or Spirit Warrior?

Modifié par Ahisgewaya, 12 mars 2010 - 10:50 .

[Manatel]

If you haven't already read it, I can recommend this thread



http://social.biowar...66/index/739982



It was this thread that "turned" me.

[TBastian]

Yes, I'm beginning to think I should just save myself the grief of repeating the stuff I just said for the 4th page and just... play. Maybe upload a few vids for x-president's guide once he comes back. I've been pm-ing him forever, seems he's playing final fantasy or something.

[CybAnt1]

Which makes Shapeshifter the DA equivalent of the D&D Druid in Wildshape, since the Wildshaped Druid benefits from whatever weapons were in use prior to the change.

Great: except D & D druids could and did wield scythes, scimitars, clubs, spears, and other melee weapons, and this was an expected part of their class. 

So: I'm asking in a serious way -- who else gives their mage, who's not an arcane warrior, a melee weapon? BTW: seen any other NPC mages in the game holding something other than a staff? Why would you THINK to give them heavy weapons, or armor? 

Here's my point. If you've never read a shapeshifter guide, would you really know the damage of the shifted form is based on prior held weapon? I sure didn't. I had zero reason to give my non-AW mages melee weapons, and never did. And little did I know they were doing fist damage as a bear or spider. Thanks for the auto-hit, but it seems like silly consolation. 

No other mage -- other than an AW -- really benefits from a melee weapon, and again it's not like it's self-evident from the shapeshifter specialization that the shapeshifter mage does. It's one thing for the druid, who by nature of the class in D & D, to base shifted form damage on prior weapon, because druids are usually expected to be holding pretty decent weapons. In this game, where every mage other than AWs is running around with a staff (which in this game is a ranged weapon, not a melee weapon), it seems to make less sense.

BTW: I would be completely OK with the way the specialization works if mage staves acted as BOTH melee & ranged weapons (i.e. could be melee'd with as quarterstaves) -- they could get modest melee damage and I'd be fine with that as long as it's more than fists -- and then that damage transfers over to your shifted form. 

I agree the bear & spider forms shouldn't be BETTER than tank warriors or DPS rogues in combat; it's just I don't think they should be pathetic, unless your non-AW shapeshifter mage is willing to run around all the time in chainmail & with a greatsword. 

The specialization isn't "broken". I agree. You can make it work. If you want to put zero points into STR, it will work if you run around the entire game wielding Ser Jory's greatsword. So there is a way to make it work -- just with something I think I'm not the only one views as a cheese tactic. 

I agree BIo's not going to "fix" it -- they don't see it as broken. Players that do -- let's make a mod. 

So far all I know is there's a shapechange 2DA file. Maybe I can figure out how to edit it. If I have to, I'll make this mod myself. 

[Axekix]

Manatel wrote...

Do you honestly mean that shapeshifters should be able to compete with pure melee classes in dps?

Then I can agree with your arguments. I personaly think that would be overpowered.

That depends.  If they didn't lose so much of their signature mage utility (CC/AE damage/healing) then their dps would be fine.  But since shifting forces them to melee exclusively, and takes so long to cast, their damage is really unacceptable imo.  At least one of these areas needs improvement.

Modifié par Axekix, 13 mars 2010 - 01:03 .

[CybAnt1]

I'm not really good at this, and maybe it belongs in the Toolset forum (already started a thread under Custom Content), but ... for people who are better at script & file editing ...

There's a tutorial on the files to edit at
http://www.dragonage...ticle.php?id=12

The goal of the tutorial seems to be to show people how to make new forms ... but might provide the basis for editing the nature of the existing ones.

Does someone want to take a crack at this?

EDIT: looks like someone named "Orion3000" was poking around with this.

http://social.biowar.../index/418556/1

Orion, are you still here? It seems like you figured out how to edit base damage for the forms, but couldn't get your change to "stick". 

Modifié par CybAnt1, 12 mars 2010 - 11:26 .

[Mavkiel]

Manatel wrote...
Ah here we go again. I'm obviously an idiot because I can get the current shapeshifter to work.

Indeed. If a lobotomized chimp can defeat nightmare with a shifter, it doesn't mean the class is balanced correctly. I don't believe anyone is saying that the game is not possible to defeat with a shape-shifter. Or that some of its forms might have some use in combat. There is just no compelling reason to change form, unless of course you neglected to buy any defensive/offensive spells.

[Ahisgewaya]

That's it exactly! The other specializations at least give you something worthwhile. The Shapeshifter just gimps you. It doesn't even let you turn into anything cool (Spiders, Bees or a Zombie Bear). Zombie Bear in particular is disgusting. You should have an ability to make darkspawn throw up, I know I nearly did the first time I saw it.

[CybAnt1]

BTW, I think the Flying Swarm in the existing (unmodified) Shapeshifter spec works just fine. It does not need to be improved. It itself makes the Shapeshifter spec worthwhile. So I don't agree there's no point to the Shapeshifter spec. Just that 2 of its forms could be ... improved.



I just think, once again, the bear and spider forms could be done ... differently.

[TBastian]

Given up on this thread, but wanna clarify a few things.

So: I'm asking in a serious way -- who else gives their mage, who's not an arcane warrior, a melee weapon? BTW: seen any other NPC mages in the game holding something other than a staff? Why would you THINK to give them heavy weapons, or armor?

The Shapeshifter has never claimed to be a "conventional" mage. Everything about it screams unconventional. The spec bonus (+2 con and +1 armor - those are combat bonuses), the description ("unpredictable", "mage-with-bag-of-tricks", "warrior-mage"), the lore (a magic gained through practice, not study), the mechanics (it actually checks for a staff first, it retains the damage modifiers of weapons and only chose to ignore offensive bonuses) and finally Bioware itself has said that it is working as intended (which means they knew about these mechanics and chose to stick with them, especially since in all the DLC's and patches there has never been a Shapeshifter-specific weapon).

Here's my point. If you've never read a shapeshifter guide, would you really know the damage of the shifted form is based on prior held weapon? I sure didn't. I had zero reason to give my non-AW mages melee weapons, and never did. And little did I know they were doing fist damage as a bear or spider. Thanks for the auto-hit, but it seems like silly consolation.

That's because it's a very rewarding and powerful spec when used properly. I wasn't exaggerating with any of my previous posts regarding my Shapeshifter. I was saying it as someone who regularly sees my warriors do 150+ damage by endgame.

No other mage -- other than an AW -- really benefits from a melee weapon, and again it's not like it's self-evident from the shapeshifter specialization that the shapeshifter mage does. It's one thing for the druid, who by nature of the class in D & D, to base shifted form damage on prior weapon, because druids are usually expected to be holding pretty decent weapons. In this game, where every mage other than AWs is running around with a staff (which in this game is a ranged weapon, not a melee weapon), it seems to make less sense.

As previously said, "predictable" is not one of the proper descriptors for a Shapeshifter. And there nothing wrong with only switching weapons when you need to shift, and using a staff otherwise.

BTW: I would be completely OK with the way the specialization works if mage staves acted as BOTH melee & ranged weapons (i.e. could be melee'd with as quarterstaves) -- they could get modest melee damage and I'd be fine with that as long as it's more than fists -- and then that damage transfers over to your shifted form.

That would make for a pretty nice mod for those who share the same opinions.

I agree the bear & spider forms shouldn't be BETTER than tank warriors or DPS rogues in combat; it's just I don't think they should be pathetic, unless your non-AW shapeshifter mage is willing to run around all the time in chainmail & with a greatsword.

The Shapeshifter mechanics are more complicated than that. There actually are benefits to sticking with robes (your forms get an armor bonus), that you lose when you wear something heavier. This is obviously intended, since there are a lot of very powerful light armors out there. If you're looking for a mage using light armors, the renegade - Anerein - the escapee mage who fled from both the circle and keeps to the Dalish - is one example.
Weapon-wise, you actually gain very little for using heavy weapons of higher grade. Bear and Spider ignore almost all offensive bonuses, so you basically just get the higher base-damage. That's just around 6 form damage( from tier 1 to dragonbone) for 34 points in strength! That's extreme. Strength-based Shapeshifters are a more specialized type of Shapeshifter though, which aim for much higher than 34 strength, so they're something very different altogether.
A little strength is useful, around 20 total. It gives you a lot of options, and you basically lose only 2 magical damage/heal points (you need 6 points to reach 20 as an elf). Also fits well with being "unpredictable" and "unconventional".

The specialization isn't "broken". I agree. You can make it work. If you want to put zero points into STR, it will work if you run around the entire game wielding Ser Jory's greatsword. So there is a way to make it work -- just with something I think I'm not the only one views as a cheese tactic.

I no longer use Jory's sword, although it was very useful early game. Very late into the game, there are enough +strength items that you can reach 22 modified strength by yourself easy. I was already using something different by level 12, since I knew where to look.
You also have the option to pick Arcane Warrior to wear heavier gear. Before you complain, consider that Arcane Warriors do something very similar when the pick Blood Mage to make them capable casters.
Sometimes I do wish I just went with raising my strength to 20. 6 points is nonfactor, when in exchange I won't be forced to pick Arcane Warrior. I might, but it depends on the expansion.

Sure the Shapeshifter mechanics are obscure. But this is more a fault of the player base than the spec. You could try asking around how "improves blood magic" worked, what the formula for Arcane Warrior magic to attack/damage was, or how Cleansing Aura actually worked and you would get a lot of answers. Try asking what the strength progression was for spider/bear or how much damage swarm did, you'd get a ___.  It's nto the Shapeshifter's fault that the few people who first decided to try it failed miserably and then managed to convince everyone else that it sucked (case in point: a lot of the "extra" posts in this thread).

For the record, none of the mage specializations actually fit a "classic" pure magic mage, heh. If you were new to they game and only raised magic/willpower, the only spec that would have worked for you would have been Spirit Healer. Blood Mage would have been as obscure to a new player as Shapeshifter, since you need to have good constitution or need to know the location of +con items in the game to make it work (it was actually deemed a "bad" spec at some point). Arcane Warrior had a lot of fans so it was inevitable that it would be dissected completely early on. But lots of new players still have trouble with it. It's actually one of the most commonly asked about specs, but people just knew what to answer, as it had so many fans who were trying to understand how it worked.

Modifié par TBastian, 13 mars 2010 - 04:00 .

[CybAnt1]

Anyway, I was about to tinker myself, until I found out somebody came up with what seems to be the solution.



It's tmp7704's Shapeshifter Plus! Mod, and it's here under Projects. It seems to raise your base damage to what I consider better levels, even if holding a staff before shifting, and no pumping of human STR. Plus, you even get a fourth form as Master Shapeshifter, a dragon shape -- which is not as overpowered as some other shifting mods.



So folks: I'm still going to poke into the 2DA files and see what I see, but in the meantime, it looks like a "fix" (for those who consider it "broken") for those who want one.



One final point TBastian: if you look over some of the posts in the Toolset forum, we are both wrong. The .NCS scripts really ARE broken. There are actual problems with them. Everything is not as originally intended. In fact, it seems to be the opinion of some that the reason they made the Shapeshifter a warrior-mage, was based on a problem getting the weapon-switching part of the shifting-script to work. *Since they couldn't get the script to work properly*, they decided to make the mechanic the way it is now. Seriously.







In all seriousness: it's a bug they've decided to make a feature. It is.

[Addai]

TBastian wrote...

Read_the_previous_posts.
I have all the right to act self-righteous, since if *some* people took the time to actually read the previous posts they'll realize that I've been repeating the same message for the past oh 5-6 posts.

So you assume we haven't?  How about calmly discussing the spec's good points without lobbing insults?  It doesn't win you any hearers to be a pissant.

As I said, I simply don't see why I should trade my mage's spellcasting ability mid-fight, no matter how awesome a melee fighter she could make.  My AW rarely ever drew her sword, and even with sword drawn could cast some pretty effective spells.  She's a DPS + blood mage and can often clear a room single-handedly, using mostly AoE spells.  It would be a downgrade to have to melee.  If I wanted to do that most of the time, I'd be a warrior or rogue and not a mage.

A specialization is "broken" if the majority of players don't like it and never use it, regardless of mechanics.  I haven't seen anything that convinces me otherwise.

[TBastian]

Most of the people who posted so far haven't. You shouldn't need to read back so far to see their posts.
What difficulty are you playing at? It makes a difference. Basically a pure mage is simply too powerful at lower difficulty levels when built right.
Basically a shifter would nuke, and upon finding out that an elite/boss is still standing, promptly shift and not waste mana on simple spells. A shapeshifter is also quite capable of clearing a room entirely on its own, The Shapeshifter can also go nuke exclusive + a few support spells since it does need to play buffs/sustaineds/defensively like an Arcane Warrior.
When shifted Overwhelm can easily do over 300+ damage even with a pure magic Shapeshifter (could be higher), not to mention disabling the target for free hits. It is an automatic death sentence for most humanoids. This is on top of any possible high damage nuke you can throw at your target, except it can't be resisted.

A specialization is "broken" if the majority of players don't like it and never use it, regardless of mechanics. I haven't seen anything that convinces me otherwise.

The Blood Mage was once "broken" then. Somehow it got unbroken. Incidentally this was after people discovered items like Reaper's Vestments, Lifegiver, Gorging amulet.

I am aware of the weapon-switch bug, yes. I have to deal with it everytime I play (really, it would be difficult not to encounter it). It's a small price pay though. Some tinkering with the AI fixes it for me.

That is exaggeration. The Shapeshifter was a warrior-mage as soon as it was conceived. Every Shapeshifter in a game I've ever played so far is some sort of hybrid. WoW, D&D, other MMORPG, etc. Especially in DA:O, given its background.

The bug need fixing yes. Unfortunately I think few people even bother enough with the Shapeshifter to care, making it low priority. It has been that way. And all this clamoring for Shapeshifter to be rebalanced, without anyone even going so far as  to try it out in practice and actually understanding how it worked and how it can be improved, you'd think any mention of "Shapeshifter" should have already gained some negative connotation for Bioware by now. I've seen the posts and threads where a Bioware representative actually came to discuss possible Shapeshifter improvements. Sadly, they ended up with posts like this one (ie, Shapeshifter should be this way, Shapeshifter should be that way, Shapeshifter needs rebalancing, Shapeshifter looks ugly. etc)
No one ever says something specific. Can you improve shapeshifting level progression a bit to accomodate faulty AI, and maybe just decrease con progression a bit as a tradeoff since we already have enough con items than we know what to do with? Can you improve Master Shapeshifter bonus a bit to scale with difficulty and enemy armor progression, especiall with the expansion looming? Can we have a glove that can increase form damage when used, so we can choose between that and a +elemental damage one? Etc.

For the record, a more serious bug exists for an unselected swarm.

Modifié par TBastian, 13 mars 2010 - 08:40 .

[Manatel]

Mavkiel wrote...

I don't believe anyone is saying that the game is not possible to defeat with a shape-shifter.

I don't claim that people are saying that either. But the phrase 'broken and useless' have been used in this and other threads. And that is what I disagree with.

Mavkiel wrote...

Or that some of its forms might have some use in combat. There is just no compelling reason to change form, unless of course you neglected to buy any defensive/offensive spells.

As I said earlier, except for Arcane Warrior, my shapeshifter probably had the easiest battle against the High Dragon. So that was for me one compelling reason to change form. And before anyone points it out, I know the high dragon is doable with everything. It was still my easiest battle with it.

And also to use swarm to pull enemies over traps, another compelling reason to change.

I would also prefer a shapeshifter that wouldn't rely on heavy armor and STR. Because that would feel more what I imagine a shapeshifter should be (I'm kind of nerd ). But I think it is kinda misguided to jump to 'broken and useless'. And then call the ones who disagree idiots.

[Knal1991]

Though the logic of Shapeshifter is odd, it can very well work with magic basis, even if you pump strength you are still a strong mage for magic, They should howver design gear for shapeshifters that pump strength, i made some custom ones and do not have to pump anything with my precious attribute points.......


I do agree the Spec should be editted. right now, the other choices are better, especially considering the increase in difficulty awakening seems to have...more spells could help a bit i suppose....

Modifié par Knal1991, 13 mars 2010 - 10:43 .

[Tusbat]

TBastian wrote...

They haven't bothered to fix it because THEY SEE NO PROBLEM WITH IT. Bioware has made this clear many times 

I need proof for this please. I have never seen any posts or explanations from the devs regarding shapeshifting and I wonder if the terrible (in my opinion) design of shapeshifter spec was done intentionally.

[CybAnt1]

Every Shapeshifter in a game I've ever played so far is some sort of hybrid. WoW, D&D, other MMORPG, etc. Especially in DA:O, given its background.

Well, yes, and no. If we're talking druids and 3E wild shape, well yes. 

My D & D mages used polymorph self and the 9th level shapechange spell (which included an iron golem form) and never changed their gear. In fact, that always kind of felt sort of the point to me, for a shapechanging mage. It was their opportunity to melee (as a magical creature) since in human form they were almost never doing it. 

Of course, in this game, mages are mages, mages are clerics, mages are druids, mages are warlocks ... there's only one spellcasting class. 

No one ever says something specific. 

I just did. I think the KEY fix (and again I understand it's not a "fix" per se - you, x-president, the guy who wrote the sorcerer's place guide like things the way they are, but imo you've simply found ways to make work what others find unworkable) is to decouple the bear/spider forms' damage from prior weapon held damage. 

Bottom line: we can stop arguing. It's been done. Tmp7704's Shapeshifter Plus! mod does it. Anyone who doesn't like the way the spec works now can use it. Bonus icing, it includes a 4th form, a dragon (no a small dragon, not a high dragon). All I can tell you is I've now watched the bear and spider damage (when not using special abilities) jump dramatically, even when my 12 str mage was holding a staff beforehand ... it was what I was looking for. 

Gaming console players ... well, keep asking Bioware to do something. 

X-president is definitely right about many things, once you get the damage for these forms fixed, they are useful. He does rightly point out that when shapeshifted, you can't be grabbed, overwhelmed by other creatures, and thrown back. They definitely have their use, esp. in boss battles with bosses who can do such things to you. 

[TBastian]

@Tusbat
Just do a search. Try googling "dragon age developers shapeshifter" or some similar. There are several threads in the Bioware forums, you should bump into one at least in time.

@CybAnt1
I was lamenting that fact for the otherr threads a dev actually decided to visit. I wasn't arguing, as I said I was merely clarifying that there are alternatives. For the purpose of this discussion, ignore it.

You could achieve exactly the same results without the mods, but don't mind me.

Incidentally, now that I decided to check I think I downloaded that mod once and I think I still have its formula around. It basically just improves shapeshifting level progression and form base damage, ie replaces the "barehanded" part.

Modifié par TBastian, 13 mars 2010 - 05:05 .

[ladydesire]

CybAnt1 wrote...

Every Shapeshifter in a game I've ever played so far is some sort of hybrid. WoW, D&D, other MMORPG, etc. Especially in DA:O, given its background.

Well, yes, and no. If we're talking druids and 3E wild shape, well yes. 

My D & D mages used polymorph self and the 9th level shapechange spell (which included an iron golem form) and never changed their gear. In fact, that always kind of felt sort of the point to me, for a shapechanging mage. It was their opportunity to melee (as a magical creature) since in human form they were almost never doing it. 

Of course, in this game, mages are mages, mages are clerics, mages are druids, mages are warlocks ... there's only one spellcasting class. 

No one ever says something specific. 

I just did. I think the KEY fix (and again I understand it's not a "fix" per se - you, x-president, the guy who wrote the sorcerer's place guide like things the way they are, but imo you've simply found ways to make work what others find unworkable) is to decouple the bear/spider forms' damage from prior weapon held damage.

If Bioware had wanted the shapes to ignore prior weapon held damage, like the Polymorph spell does, don't you think they would have done so? That is, to me at least, an indication that Shapeshifter is intentionally emulating Druid Wildshape and not Wizard Polymorph. And with regards to NPC Mages in DA:O not having melee weapons even if they are shapeshifters, have you ever given Morrigan or Wynne a sword and had them run into melee to use it instead of staying at range and attacking with their staff? I have.

[Gaudion]

TBastian wrote...

Given up on this thread, but wanna clarify a few things.

We both know you're too concerned with winning this thread to do that.

The Shapeshifter has never claimed to be a "conventional" mage.

Let me just stop you there.

For as much as you've repeated the same argument this entire thread, which basically amounts to, "Everyone who doesn't agree with me complicitly is an idiot," you might try taking your own advice and try actually reading the rest of the posts. Most of us, myself included, have made plain time again that we understand that the specialization can be made to work. We furthermore understand the concept and application behind the specialization.

Where we take issue is the degree to which the game requires you to defeat conventional archetypes in order to achieve that success. You shouldn't have to un-Mage the Mage to make Shapeshifter work. When a simple fix to spider and bear form's reliance on equipped armor and weapons could make the specialization far more accomodating, it's hard to see all these complex mechanics as necessary.

Modifié par Gaudion, 13 mars 2010 - 08:48 .

[ladydesire]

Gaudion wrote...

TBastian wrote...

Given up on this thread, but wanna clarify a few things.

We both know you're too concerned with winning this thread to do that.

The Shapeshifter has never claimed to be a "conventional" mage.

Let me just stop you there.

For as much as you've repeated the same argument this entire thread, which basically amounts to, "Everyone who doesn't agree with me complicitly is an idiot," you might try taking your own advice and try actually reading the rest of the posts. Most of us, myself included, have made plain time again that we understand that the specialization can be made to work. We furthermore understand the concept and application behind the specialization.

I don't think it's a matter of "can be made to work" so much as it's "how it's designed to work", meaning that the armor and weapon bonuses are supposed to apply to the forms as is currently the case.

Where we take issue is the degree to which the game requires you to defeat conventional archetypes in order to achieve that success. You shouldn't have to un-Mage the Mage to make Shapeshifter work. When a simple fix to spider and bear form's reliance on equipped armor and weapons could make the specialization far more accomodating, it's hard to see all these complex mechanics as necessary.

Ok, so you don't agree with Bioware choosing to emulate the D&D Druid's Wildshape ability and wish they had used Polymorph Self instead; I'm sure TBastian can accept that, as I do.

[Mavkiel]

ladydesire wrote...

I don't think it's a matter of "can be made to work" so much as it's "how it's designed to work", meaning that the armor and weapon bonuses are supposed to apply to the forms as is currently the case.
...
Ok, so you don't agree with Bioware choosing to emulate the D&D Druid's Wildshape ability and wish they had used Polymorph Self instead; I'm sure TBastian can accept that, as I do.

Neat I didnt realize that armor/weapon bonuses applied to shapes. Probably because if I use shapeshifter I also go for blood mage. Never really want to waste stats to get a melee weapon/armor .

We should probably avoid D&D references for everyones sanity. Going from 3.0 to 4.0 would be enough to give anyone a headache.

If damage bonuses from your weapons carry through when you change form, does that include things like + fire damage? Imo, they should just go for spellpower increasing the strength of your forms and be done with it.

[AlanC9]

Axekix wrote...
Honestly, the spec needs help.  Equipping "warrior gear" is a waste because a warrior would put it to far better use

Huh? Just give the SS the fourth best set of warrior gear. That's still plenty good enough

[AlanC9]

TBastian wrote...
Sure the Shapeshifter mechanics are obscure. But this is more a fault of the player base than the spec. You could try asking around how "improves blood magic" worked, what the formula for Arcane Warrior magic to attack/damage was, or how Cleansing Aura actually worked and you would get a lot of answers. Try asking what the strength progression was for spider/bear or how much damage swarm did, you'd get a ___.  It's nto the Shapeshifter's fault that the few people who first decided to try it failed miserably and then managed to convince everyone else that it sucked (case in point: a lot of the "extra" posts in this thread).

That doesn't make the player base sound foolish -- it makes DA documentation in general sound bad. SS is just the worst example