105 réponses à ce sujet

[cralexns]

Personally I chose Samara the first time around as a Renegade but when I discovered the 40+ paragon point reward for doing so, I reloaded the mission and chose Morinth so I could get the same amount of renegade points instead.

IC: My Shepard wouldn't hesitate to aid Samara kill that vile thing
OOC: Meta-gaming got the better of me, I'm scared to death of the huge paragon rewards!

Modifié par cralexns, 06 mars 2010 - 01:25 .

[cronshaw8]

hwf, that is an interesting theory. Two problems though. I'm not sure Shepard's choice indicates he/she is strong enough to resist Morinth's seductions, just her mind control. Also your scenario assumes Morinth would go along with such an elaborate and involved plan. I would argue she would not. Impersonating Samara on the Normandy, in front of 30 or so people who don't know Samara or anything about Justicars is one thing. Sustaining that for years inside Asari space is quite another and requires discipline i don't think Morinth possesses. Not to mention i think she would think it is a colossal waste of time.

[Zemore]

cronshaw8 wrote...


How do you know? Have you memorized all 5000 sutras? Justicars are a part of asari culture. It seemse highly unlikely that this artifact would have survived for millena if the Justicars went around slaughtering children.

as far as i can see your statement can be combated with itself Have YOU memorised the 5000 sutras?what you think is "unlikley" states that its entirley possible its unlikley somone will get hit by lighting it still happens.

i think the fact everyone literally ****s themselves when a Justicar is around and the fact one of the responses about asking where is samara was "Oh god has she started killing" is enough to make the point valid.

Modifié par Zemore, 06 mars 2010 - 01:32 .

[The Angry One]

Morinth has already impersonated her mother on occassion, she says as much.

It hasn't destabilised much yet.

Even if she did.. frankly Justicars sound morally bankrupt. Anything that might end up with people questioning their name might be a good thing ironically enough.

[The Capital Gaultier]

Zemore wrote...

cronshaw8 wrote...


How do you know? Have you memorized all 5000 sutras? Justicars are a part of asari culture. It seemse highly unlikely that this artifact would have survived for millena if the Justicars went around slaughtering children.

as far as i can see your statement can be combated with itself Have YOU memorised the 5000 sutras?what you think is "unlikley" states that its entirley possible its unlikley somone will get hit by lighting it still happens.

i think the fact everyone literally ****s themselves when a Justicar is around and the fact one of the responses about asking where is samara was "Oh god has she started killing" is enough to make the point valid.

It is really difficult to tell who's killed more innocents.  Morinth is a cold-blooded killer, but at least she has a mental condition to explain her killings.

Modifié par The Capital Gaultier, 06 mars 2010 - 01:39 .

[Zemore]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

Zemore wrote...

cronshaw8 wrote...


How do you know? Have you memorized all 5000 sutras? Justicars are a part of asari culture. It seemse highly unlikely that this artifact would have survived for millena if the Justicars went around slaughtering children.

as far as i can see your statement can be combated with itself Have YOU memorised the 5000 sutras?what you think is "unlikley" states that its entirley possible its unlikley somone will get hit by lighting it still happens.

i think the fact everyone literally ****s themselves when a Justicar is around and the fact one of the responses about asking where is samara was "Oh god has she started killing" is enough to make the point valid.

It is really difficult who's killed more innocents.  Morinth is a cold-blooded killer, but at least she has a mental condition to explain her killings.

that and she seduces her victims theres no evidence to state how long she takes between kills under samaras code she could kill any number of people daily

Modifié par Zemore, 06 mars 2010 - 01:35 .

[superimposed]

Face it: Samara is a nut job because she birthed three daughters who are incapable of having intimate relationships and feels like she's all broken and warped inside.

Morinth is someone who's incapable of having a normal life, and is broken and warped inside.

[Onyx Jaguar]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

Zemore wrote...

cronshaw8 wrote...


How do you know? Have you memorized all 5000 sutras? Justicars are a part of asari culture. It seemse highly unlikely that this artifact would have survived for millena if the Justicars went around slaughtering children.

as far as i can see your statement can be combated with itself Have YOU memorised the 5000 sutras?what you think is "unlikley" states that its entirley possible its unlikley somone will get hit by lighting it still happens.

i think the fact everyone literally ****s themselves when a Justicar is around and the fact one of the responses about asking where is samara was "Oh god has she started killing" is enough to make the point valid.

It is really difficult who's killed more innocents.  Morinth is a cold-blooded killer, but at least she has a mental condition to explain her killings.

I'd also assume that Morinth would specifically target individuals (cult leader notwithstanding) as she gets a rush from it.  Samara has shown that anyone that "she" perceives that gets in her way (innocent or not, if they get in her way they are not innocent to her) that they must be dealt with. 

It is a no win situation.

[superimposed]

Morinth is a serial killer while Samara is a Mass Murderer.

[Mnemnosyne]

cralexns wrote...

Personally I chose Samara the first time around as a Renegade but when I discovered the 40+ paragon point reward for doing so, I reloaded the mission and chose Morinth so I could get the same amount of renegade points instead.

IC: My Shepard wouldn't hesitate to aid Samara kill that vile thing
OOC: Meta-gaming got the better of me, I'm scared to death of the huge paragon rewards!

I don't understand people's reasoning for avoiding opposite side points.  This isn't KOTOR where gaining one type of points reduces the other.  You can end the game at over 70% paragon and full renegade quite easily, especially if you're using the 100% boost class evolution instead of the 70% boost.

[cronshaw8]

Zemore wrote...

cronshaw8 wrote...


How do you know? Have you memorized all 5000 sutras? Justicars are a part of asari culture. It seemse highly unlikely that this artifact would have survived for millena if the Justicars went around slaughtering children.

as far as i can see your statement can be combated with itself Have YOU memorised the 5000 sutras?what you think is "unlikley" states that its entirley possible its unlikley somone will get hit by lighting it still happens.

i think the fact everyone literally ****s themselves when a Justicar is around and the fact one of the responses about asking where is samara was "Oh god has she started killing" is enough to make the point valid.

I haven't. But i'm not the one presenting scenarios and saying: "Samara would do A if B happened" You presented a scenario as a fact, when you have no way of knowing. All i did was point out that you have no way of knowing. I didn't say she would or wouldn't do it. I don't think she would, but i could be wrong and you could be right.

Edit: Also since i've posted a bunch on this thread i'll say this. I like Samara. I found her loyalty story quite affecting. I think her code is problematic, but i see her more along the lines of a renegade shepard than evil. This definately makes me more likely to "fill in the blanks" in her defense, so a lot of what i'm saying is conjecture. It is conjecture that makes sense to me, but maybe not to people that really don't like samara and aren't willing to try to make sense of her behavior the same way i am.

Modifié par cronshaw8, 06 mars 2010 - 01:55 .

[The Angry One]

As an aside, googling "Justicar" brings up a full page of WoW related links.

I therefore assume Samara plays WoW.



She dies.

[ExtremeOne]

No

[Zemore]

cronshaw8 wrote...


I haven't. But i'm not the one presenting scenarios and saying: "Samara would do A if B happened" You presented a scenario as a fact, when you have no way of knowing. All i did was point out that you have no way of knowing. I didn't say she would or wouldn't do it. I don't think she would, but i could be wrong and you could be right.

Its called making a point and using an extreme example of a hypothetical situation to get the point across im not saying im right either im just using it to show how her Code(on the surface at least) doesnt differeciate between Good and evil but on Justice and in the cases with Justicars they enforce by killing Now if somone steals is thier crime befitting death? which brings a point of that isnt Justice so even her code is unjust =/

there is also the factor that she still holds the right to decide on weither somthing is right or wrong for example when she threatens shepard about if after the misson blah blah she also doesnt appear to follow direct laws like a spec but she doesnt have the actually offical Above the law jurisdiction which means if she kills its still Murder.

Modifié par Zemore, 06 mars 2010 - 01:53 .

[hwf]

Sure, you can argue that Morinth didn't have much effect up until this point.
But she's done a lot, even while being hunted for the past 400 years nonstop by her own mother.
She actually was fed many Asari maidens during that time by setting up a Ardat-Yakshi cult surrounding herself on some remote colony.
You know, that village that Samara butchered after finding out about it.

Now, Morinth is no longer prey. Her mother, the one who hunted her, haunted her - is dead.
Morinth no longer has need to go into hiding for up to 50 years whenever her mother comes too close.
As for Justicar reputations? They're practically revered from what you can tell from the few Asari that mention Justicars.

To top it off; no-one, not even the Illusive Man as can be seen from the briefing mission, is aware of that Samara is dead and Morinth still alive.
Perhaps you can argue that DNA analysis will turn out otherwise, you can also argue that T'Loak would rather dump that "filthy creature"'s corpse straight out of the airlock.

Now Morinth, with Samara's cover, has all the time in the world to does what she wants.
Whatever authorities knew about her believe she is dead and she's no longer being pestered by mommy.

Now I'm not suggesting that Morinth and Shepard work something out, but Morinth herself seems pretty adamant about her condition being the "future of the Asari race".
Make of that what you will, but it seems to me that Morinth has an axe to grind and a plan of her own.

Meanwhile, Shepard's breaking out a bottle of the good stuff and smiles about a job well done in destabilizing the Asari.
"Here's to Earth first!"

[The Angry One]

Yeah Justicars are revered. They shouldn't be. If they're like Samara then they're basically criminals with a free pass in Asari space. Screw 'em.
And before anyone says Spectres are above the law, at least Spectres are recruited from psychologically stable people and don't have the reputation of killing people who violate their self-constructed set of morals. Nobody goes around saying "Oh crap has the Spectre started a-killin' already?"

Modifié par The Angry One, 06 mars 2010 - 01:58 .

[hwf]

Yeah, psychologically stable people like Saren.
Didn't he do something with a refinery somewhere?

But I agree. It's a choice that leaves you between a rock and a hard place.
Either way you are stuck with a person that'll leave a trail of destruction.
Samara would be the lesser evil?

Anyway, that wasn't the question of the OP though.
The reasoning in my posts is what I used for my Renegade run.

[Barquiel]

I doubt Samara killed many innocents.

her problem in ME2: she left asari space and the authorities on Illium feared political consequences



imo...

Samara=renegadeShep

Morinth=evil ("the galaxy is her playground")

[cronshaw8]

Zemore wrote...

cronshaw8 wrote...


I haven't. But i'm not the one presenting scenarios and saying: "Samara would do A if B happened" You presented a scenario as a fact, when you have no way of knowing. All i did was point out that you have no way of knowing. I didn't say she would or wouldn't do it. I don't think she would, but i could be wrong and you could be right.

Its called making a point and using an extreme example of a hypothetical situation to get the point across im not saying im right either im just using it to show how her Code(on the surface at least) doesnt differeciate between Good and evil but on Justice and in the cases with Justicars they enforce by killing Now if somone steals is thier crime befitting death? which brings a point of that isnt Justice so even her code is unjust =/

there is also the factor that she still holds the right to decide on weither somthing is right or wrong for example when she threatens shepard about if after the misson blah blah she also doesnt appear to follow direct laws like a spec but she doesnt have the actually offical Above the law jurisdiction which means if she kills its still Murder.

Yeah, i guess my only point is that her code is discribed as black and white but is sitll very underdevloped and unclear. There is a lot of room for conjecture. Take for example the killing of the village where morinth was. A renegade shepard does the exact same thing on Zaeed's loyalty mission. And actually it is worse because the miners aren't attacking shepard. I've seen plenty of people argue that it is okay because Vido would have gotten away and killed more people. Well you can make the same arguement in Samara's favor.  I guess the bottom line is people who don't like the idea of the code to begin with, or maybe just don't like Samara will assume it is brutally restrictive, bordering on amoral and evil. While people like me will go in the oposite direction and try to defend Samara. Disscussions like this though are one of the things that make this game great.

[cronshaw8]

hwf wrote...

Anyway, that wasn't the question of the OP though.
The reasoning in my posts is what I used for my Renegade run.

Your arguement is a lot more sound than the reason most people give for recruiting Morinth. We might disagree on her ability to pull it off, but it at leas makes sense from shepard's standpoint

[The Angry One]

Well Saren is the exception. Yeah we don't see many other Spectres and no other Justicars, but the general reaction of people says a lot. People can respect or mistrust Spectres, people outright FEAR Justicars and their tendency to, you know, kill anyone who's in their way.



Mind you I wouldn't have that much of a problem with Samara, being primarily a renegade player myself. If she weren't such a damn hypocrite.

[Zemore]

cronshaw8 wrote...


Yeah, i guess my only point is that her code is discribed as black and white but is sitll very underdevloped and unclear. There is a lot of room for conjecture. Take for example the killing of the village where morinth was. A renegade shepard does the exact same thing on Zaeed's loyalty mission. And actually it is worse because the miners aren't attacking shepard. I've seen plenty of people argue that it is okay because Vido would have gotten away and killed more people. Well you can make the same arguement in Samara's favor.  I guess the bottom line is people who don't like the idea of the code to begin with, or maybe just don't like Samara will assume it is brutally restrictive, bordering on amoral and evil. While people like me will go in the oposite direction and try to defend Samara. Disscussions like this though are one of the things that make this game great.

thats somthing we can definetly agree on and to be honest if samara wasent a "grey" area we couldent even have a debate argument whatever you wanna call it on wether shes Good or bad but thats what happens when you dont have all 5000s sutras written down so you can see if shes taking things too literally or going to far or this or that

cronshaw8 wrote...


Your arguement is a lot more sound
than the reason most people give for recruiting Morinth. We might
disagree on her ability to pull it off, but it at leas makes sense from
shepard's standpoint

mine was i wanted the option of having her special ablity in my next play through

Modifié par Zemore, 06 mars 2010 - 02:31 .

[Chaplin_M]

just recruit her for 1 play thorugh to get her domination skill thats all shes good for

[dLied]

well, these are the reasons I can come up with.



1) She is seductive, and almost irresistible. Shepard is strongwilled, yes, but that doesn't mean she won't be able to make you interested.

2) Samara can be labeled a psychopath too. She kills completely witout remorse, because of some old, outdated code. She would kill police officers, kids, anyone as long as they did something remotely related to a crime. She even says she will have to kill shep if he does anything bad (and that is a guy who kills for a living). Morinth might be a psycho too, but she won't shoot you in the head as soon as the mission is over. As long as you manage to keep the snake in the box, you'll be safe from her.

3) Morinth didn't choose her fate. She was born like this, and she is being hunted by her own mother, just for being what she is. It's actually kind of sad.

4) Morinth has way more potential than samara. Samara is powerful, but Morinth is equally powerful, and a lot younger. plus, her powers grow with each and every one of her kills. Someone like that could be a powerful asset in the war against the reapers. For someone who is a ruthless type, and not a people person, Morinth is a legitimate choice, simply because of that. Shep has to choose the most powerful members, not the most freindly ones. Jack is a good example of this.

5) Making her loyal is a challenge. Shep loves challenges.

[superimposed]

How about this:



They're pretty much the same, except Morinth kills with sex which is hawt.