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Is Taunt needed?


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#26
soteria

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Some of these examples are due to engine limitations, some for ease of use and some are just...curious. But Taunt, IMO, goes way beyond any of them. Why would the developers include (and game buyers demand?) a 'feature' that makes an already hmm, informationally challenged AI behave even more stupidly?



For the fun of it, I'll turn it back on you. Can you make a case for including a talent which essentially says "Hey, Bad Guys! Y'all attack this here heavily armored warrior while the other three of us cut you down with impunity"?




Let me throw a disclaimer in here: I think taunt is absurdly overpowered as it is. What I am defending is the aggro system, not the ability itself as it appears in Dragon Age.



Ultimately, I think taunt and the whole aggro system *is* due to engine limitations. Realistically, as I said, you shouldn't be able to defend against an infinite number of attacks, enemies shouldn't be able to turn their backs on you or run by you without getting destroyed, and every auto-attack (and defense!) should wear you out. As far as I know, designers haven't figured out a way to implement both of those features effectively in a video game, and if they did, I imagine it would take a considerable amount of processing power. I don't think we're there yet.



If a complex and realistic system for combat is out of the question, a simpler system had to be implemented. The basic idea is of course that the AI will prioritize their targets based on who is the greatest threat or aggressor. I think NWN and maybe BG actually just did this from round to round simply based on who dealt the most damage in the previous round. Since then games have gotten better at it, adding attacks that are more or less threatening, causing healing to have an effect, modifying the threat based on range, and adding abilities such as taunt.



In theory, the aggro system is actually intended to provide a more intelligent AI, and in some cases, it works.



To compare DA:O to another system, World of Warcraft has a pretty elaborate setup. Damage, healing, and a number of specials all generate threat, modified by talents and range. The (single-target) taunt ability forces an enemy to attack you for two seconds and gives you threat equal to 90% of whoever they were attacking before. Also, it has challenging shout which forces everyone to attack the caster for 6 seconds, at which point they go back to whatever they were doing. Otherwise, a tank has to be switching targets and using aoe abilities to keep everyone attacking him.



DA:O has a somewhat similar system on the surface, even adding an effect for armor. Unfortunately, S&S warriors have no aoe attacks and no real good way to do a quick burst of damage like mighty blow or dw sweep. Instead, they just gave them taunt, a static, non-scaling ability that to me seems out of place with the rest of the aggro system.



The idea behind the initiative bit is that, generally speaking, by 'tanking' and 'healing' you've turned that 10 on 4 encounter into a 10 on 2 because two of your people are no longer doing what they should: Killing Stuff. That said, a tactically superior individual can get away with just about any strat in this game. :)




I lol'd. :) Seriously though, if anyone thinks I'm doing something wrong, I'm all for hearing it, cause I'm sure I could be doing some things better. RE: 10 vs 2 - In that situation, I'd say the problem isn't taking a tank so much as taking a tank that is so weak that he needs a dedicated healer to survive... come to think of it, that might have been the way a number of us played the first time. Just not since then.

#27
beancounter501

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soteria wrote...

Ultimately, I think taunt and the whole aggro system *is* due to engine limitations. Realistically, as I said, you shouldn't be able to defend against an infinite number of attacks, enemies shouldn't be able to turn their backs on you or run by you without getting destroyed, and every auto-attack (and defense!) should wear you out. As far as I know, designers haven't figured out a way to implement both of those features effectively in a video game, and if they did, I imagine it would take a considerable amount of processing power. I don't think we're there yet.

If a complex and realistic system for combat is out of the question, a simpler system had to be implemented. The basic idea is of course that the AI will prioritize their targets based on who is the greatest threat or aggressor. I think NWN and maybe BG actually just did this from round to round simply based on who dealt the most damage in the previous round. Since then games have gotten better at it, adding attacks that are more or less threatening, causing healing to have an effect, modifying the threat based on range, and adding abilities such as taunt.


Have to strongly disagree! :)  More of a lazy factor or gameplay decision.  AI tactics in a game like this is very simple.  They had a better AI in BG2.  If programmers can make a decent AI for a game like Civilization, then they should have no problem for a much, much less complex game like DA.  IMO, the devs clearly intended you to use a "tank who taunts/threatens".  Probably an influence from some dev who played WOW.  Yuck.

#28
Random70

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beancounter501 wrote...

soteria wrote...

Ultimately, I think taunt and the whole aggro system *is* due to engine limitations. Realistically, as I said, you shouldn't be able to defend against an infinite number of attacks, enemies shouldn't be able to turn their backs on you or run by you without getting destroyed, and every auto-attack (and defense!) should wear you out. As far as I know, designers haven't figured out a way to implement both of those features effectively in a video game, and if they did, I imagine it would take a considerable amount of processing power. I don't think we're there yet.

If a complex and realistic system for combat is out of the question, a simpler system had to be implemented. The basic idea is of course that the AI will prioritize their targets based on who is the greatest threat or aggressor. I think NWN and maybe BG actually just did this from round to round simply based on who dealt the most damage in the previous round. Since then games have gotten better at it, adding attacks that are more or less threatening, causing healing to have an effect, modifying the threat based on range, and adding abilities such as taunt.


Have to strongly disagree! :)  More of a lazy factor or gameplay decision.  AI tactics in a game like this is very simple.  They had a better AI in BG2.  If programmers can make a decent AI for a game like Civilization, then they should have no problem for a much, much less complex game like DA.  IMO, the devs clearly intended you to use a "tank who taunts/threatens".  Probably an influence from some dev who played WOW.  Yuck.


I don't want to pile on, Soteria...but I'm going to anyway :)
I've got to go with BC on this...that we got what was intended. Consider for a moment the Tactics screen: There's a thousand different variables available for behavior/targeting that the AI, for the most part doesn't take advantage of...and that's just what's available to us. Not to mention the 'Advanced Tactics' mod which goes quite a bit beyond that...and was created by some guy in his spare time

#29
Random70

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soteria wrote...
I lol'd. :) Seriously though, if anyone thinks I'm doing something wrong, I'm all for hearing it, cause I'm sure I could be doing some things better. RE: 10 vs 2 - In that situation, I'd say the problem isn't taking a tank so much as taking a tank that is so weak that he needs a dedicated healer to survive... come to think of it, that might have been the way a number of us played the first time. Just not since then.


Just add more CON. Judging by the number people posting that tactical gem, it _must_ be a no-brainer :P

#30
mosspit

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Random70 wrote...

mosspit wrote...

I believe is that it is the best aggro talent in the game. What say you?


What, you mean I can't just post random crap on these boards? I actually have to defend a position? :P

All right, you asked for it. I mentioned in that other thread that I object to 'aggro' talents (especially Taunt) for philosophical and efficiency reasons. I'll expand on both here...

I) Philosophical
Prior to DA:O my most recent foray into the RPG realm was with BG2. Sometime between then and now this whole concept of 'aggro'  with associated neat stuff like 'Taunt' and 'Holding Threat' and 'Tank' and 'Healbot' has materialized. I can honestly say that I am somewhat less than totally overwhelmed with this development. To be perfectly candid, I think it sucks.
Ever since the ancient, old days (the 80's) people have been dying for more cpu cycles so their games would have features like better graphics, better physics modeling and most importantly, smarter AI. The first two have progressed quite nicely, while the last, unfortunately has stagnated at best and has, worst case, taken a big step backward. And, also unfortunately, most people seem to be more than willing to accept an AI that behaves in such a foolish manner. A couple quick examples...

You've nearly beaten down that Alpha when he suddenly says "That's it, I'm 'disengaging'". What are you going to do now?
 A) Say "Damn, I almost had him" and go attack something else or
 B) Say "#@&% you" and take his head off
I'm going to go way out on limb here and suggest that most players are going to take 'B'...while at the same time holding the expectation that the AI select option 'A'. What's up with that?

Another? You're travelling cross country when you get jumped by an Emissary and a half dozen hurlocks. You come to the decision (correctly) that you need to take out that Emissary before he does something evil to you and your buddies so you send your melee guys to kill him. After you close half the distance, some hurlock off to the side throws a deadly....insult. What are you gonna do now?
 A) Continue on to the Emissary because he's going to demolish you or
 B) Redirect everybody to the hurlock because he 'taunted'
What? Seriously?!? Why is 'B' even an option? Would you ever do something that stupid? Then why in the hell would you expect the AI to do something that dumb?

Defend a position... erm okayImage IPB
I am very interested in your Philosophical ways. For that I think of it simpler terms. A taunt is like a mind alteration "spell" meant to do something illogical like making enemies focus on something they shd not.
As far is AI is concern, it is probably a step back as you said. Well I think the best solution for you is to have a self-improving AI. An AI which learns from gamer and progressively include tactics to counter the gamer. Maybe mulitplayers like WoW. For me, it is fine. I tend to work with what I have. Ocasionally imposing self-restrictions but I do exploit the game's AI based on my objective of the playthru.

That aside this thread got digressed from the previous for reasons unknown to me. Maybe you have an issue with me I dunno...

#31
Random70

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mosspit wrote...

Random70 wrote...

mosspit wrote...

I believe is that it is the best aggro talent in the game. What say you?


What, you mean I can't just post random crap on these boards? I actually have to defend a position? :P

All right, you asked for it. I mentioned in that other thread that I object to 'aggro' talents (especially Taunt) for philosophical and efficiency reasons. I'll expand on both here...

I) Philosophical
Prior to DA:O my most recent foray into the RPG realm was with BG2. Sometime between then and now this whole concept of 'aggro'  with associated neat stuff like 'Taunt' and 'Holding Threat' and 'Tank' and 'Healbot' has materialized. I can honestly say that I am somewhat less than totally overwhelmed with this development. To be perfectly candid, I think it sucks.
Ever since the ancient, old days (the 80's) people have been dying for more cpu cycles so their games would have features like better graphics, better physics modeling and most importantly, smarter AI. The first two have progressed quite nicely, while the last, unfortunately has stagnated at best and has, worst case, taken a big step backward. And, also unfortunately, most people seem to be more than willing to accept an AI that behaves in such a foolish manner. A couple quick examples...

You've nearly beaten down that Alpha when he suddenly says "That's it, I'm 'disengaging'". What are you going to do now?
 A) Say "Damn, I almost had him" and go attack something else or
 B) Say "#@&% you" and take his head off
I'm going to go way out on limb here and suggest that most players are going to take 'B'...while at the same time holding the expectation that the AI select option 'A'. What's up with that?

Another? You're travelling cross country when you get jumped by an Emissary and a half dozen hurlocks. You come to the decision (correctly) that you need to take out that Emissary before he does something evil to you and your buddies so you send your melee guys to kill him. After you close half the distance, some hurlock off to the side throws a deadly....insult. What are you gonna do now?
 A) Continue on to the Emissary because he's going to demolish you or
 B) Redirect everybody to the hurlock because he 'taunted'
What? Seriously?!? Why is 'B' even an option? Would you ever do something that stupid? Then why in the hell would you expect the AI to do something that dumb?

Defend a position... erm okayImage IPB
I am very interested in your Philosophical ways. For that I think of it simpler terms. A taunt is like a mind alteration "spell" meant to do something illogical like making enemies focus on something they shd not.
As far is AI is concern, it is probably a step back as you said. Well I think the best solution for you is to have a self-improving AI. An AI which learns from gamer and progressively include tactics to counter the gamer. Maybe mulitplayers like WoW. For me, it is fine. I tend to work with what I have. Ocasionally imposing self-restrictions but I do exploit the game's AI based on my objective of the playthru.

That aside this thread got digressed from the previous for reasons unknown to me. Maybe you have an issue with me I dunno...


Not at all...thus the smiley. The first couple of lines was about that other thread where I made a controversial statement, you called me on it and then I actually had to type out that long expository. No biggie, I've been meaning to to start a thread on this subject anyway.

And that line where I said "Would you do anything that stupid?" I didn't mean you Mosspit, I meant you the general gaming public.

#32
mosspit

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Random70 wrote...
Not at all...thus the smiley. The first couple of lines was about that other thread where I made a controversial statement, you called me on it and then I actually had to type out that long expository. No biggie, I've been meaning to to start a thread on this subject anyway.

And that line where I said "Would you do anything that stupid?" I didn't mean you Mosspit, I meant you the general gaming public.

It seems like every other threads I posted on got digressed... Anywayz don't worry about it. My ego is in a safe place. Its good the smileys came from which it came from. It just seems to me that the controversial statement was made (and you did substiate it in your own way) was directed at me and not the objective of my post. If it was not personal then I will treat it as misundestanding on my part.

#33
soteria

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Well, I disagree with BOTH your disagreements, and raise you a random derogatory remark about your respective mothers, so there. Am I doing it right?



Have to strongly disagree! :) More of a lazy factor or gameplay decision. AI tactics in a game like this is very simple. They had a better AI in BG2. If programmers can make a decent AI for a game like Civilization, then they should have no problem for a much, much less complex game like DA. IMO, the devs clearly intended you to use a "tank who taunts/threatens". Probably an influence from some dev who played WOW. Yuck.




Hmm. I never thought the AI in BG2 was all that. Mostly enemies start by attacking whoever they see first and then it's whoever is doing the most damage, which is little different from the aggro system in DA:O. Also, there were plenty of ways you could exploit the AI, such as by casting aoe spells from out of sight. Also, Civilization isn't a very fair counter-example, given the turn based nature, simple combat rules, and isometric grid. Plus, as I was saying, WoW actually has a better system, much less vulnerable to abuse. I played a mage for a long time, and trust me, mobs loooove to kill mages.



I don't want to pile on, Soteria...but I'm going to anyway :)

I've got to go with BC on this...that we got what was intended. Consider for a moment the Tactics screen: There's a thousand different variables available for behavior/targeting that the AI, for the most part doesn't take advantage of...and that's just what's available to us. Not to mention the 'Advanced Tactics' mod which goes quite a bit beyond that...and was created by some guy in his spare time




I'm not sure what you're suggesting would be any better in the long run. Frequently people say, "Well, players always go for mages first because they're the most dangerous, but monsters aren't smart enough to?" I'm not sure a system in which enemies always go after mages or rogues or the NPC with the least armor first is any better. The tricks for beating the AI would be different, but not necessarily better.



If I knew enemies would always try to kill mages first, then the purpose of heavy armor for players would be largely negated. Instead, I'd be best off just taking the armor that is best for dealing damage and having my mage take lots of CC and kiting spells.



As for players having these great tactics settings, I disagree. I haven't found a targetting system I like other than Attack Nearest and Attack Target of X. None of the others work in every situation, and even if they did, you're still taking away the player's ability to have some control in the battle. Instead, the player is left just reacting to whatever the computer does--there goes the initiative. :)

#34
Timortis

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soteria wrote...

it also takes a lot of cunning to stealth in front of elite bosses.


This is something I've been wondering about. I haven't been able to stealth in front of elite bosses with a Rogue with 90+ cunning and master stealth. How much does it take to be able to do so? IIRC Discobird in his Rogue mechanics thread said there was nothing in the scripts about cunning affecting stealth checks.

Sorry to derail the thread. Btw, I completely agree with Random regarding Taunt. Arguments about realism may not hold much water in a fantasy RPG, but all Taunt does essentially is make AI stupider. Do we need stupider AI?

Modifié par Timortis, 07 mars 2010 - 06:21 .


#35
Timortis

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I also think comparisons to WoW are misleading. In that game, bosses hit much harder than in DA:O, the game is designed to force teams of players with different, very specific roles to defeat very very powerful bosses. In DA:O you don't need a tank to beat Branka or the Archdemon, like Random said earlier, you don't need a tank with Taunt to keep bosses from one-shotting your Mages. Your Mage can solo the boss, and so can your Rogue. Taunt just makes things easier than they need to be. Just have durable tank and all your other characters don't even need to use any of their CC abilities, they can just DPS.

Modifié par Timortis, 07 mars 2010 - 06:30 .


#36
Ahzrei

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It does what it's meant to do.





But it's not necessary. You can live without it, still a good tool to keep around. If only you didn't need to waste a point on Precise Striking to get it.

#37
soteria

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This is something I've been wondering about. I haven't been able to stealth in front of elite bosses with a Rogue with 90+ cunning and master stealth. How much does it take to be able to do so? IIRC Discobird in his Rogue mechanics thread said there was nothing in the scripts about cunning affecting stealth checks.




Yeah, I just read that thread. I know I've also heard people claim to stealth in front of elite bosses, but if you couldn't do it with 90 cunning, it makes me wonder. I've never personally built a rogue with more than 60 or 70.



I also think comparisons to WoW are misleading. In that game, bosses hit much harder than in DA:O, the game is designed to force teams of players with different, very specific roles to defeat very very powerful bosses. In DA:O you don't need a tank to beat Branka or the Archdemon, like Random said earlier, you don't need a tank with Taunt to keep bosses from one-shotting your Mages. Your Mage can solo the boss, and so can your Rogue. Taunt just makes things easier than they need to be. Just have durable tank and all your other characters don't even need to use any of their CC abilities, they can just DPS.




Not to say all WoW mechanics should equal DA:O mechanics, but I do think the AI in WoW acts more intelligently. Mobs don't beat on invulnerable targets, they can't be kited ad mortem without creative use of abilities, and there's no one-shot button to make everything in the room attack you indefinitely. Of course, the mechanics are a little different since in WoW you can attack on the move, but I think DA:O compares unfavorably in that regard since it ends up being yet another way to exploit the AI. The AI (or tactics) won't process any other actions until it completes the current action, so it doesn't even take any effort to trick the AI.

#38
kombra

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Timortis wrote...

soteria wrote...

it also takes a lot of cunning to stealth in front of elite bosses.


This is something I've been wondering about. I haven't been able to stealth in front of elite bosses with a Rogue with 90+ cunning and master stealth. How much does it take to be able to do so? IIRC Discobird in his Rogue mechanics thread said there was nothing in the scripts about cunning affecting stealth checks.


http://dragonage.wik...ts#Stealth_Tree

#39
TBastian

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I'd have to agree with soteria's earlier posts. If it were only possible in-game for Alistair to stand between my mage and a hostile and actually keep it away, then I'd be glad to be rid of the aggro mechanic and Taunt.

I also think comparisons to WoW are misleading. In that game, bosses hit much harder than in DA:O, the game is designed to force teams of players with different, very specific roles to defeat very very powerful bosses. In DA:O you don't need a tank to beat Branka or the Archdemon, like Random said earlier, you don't need a tank with Taunt to keep bosses from one-shotting your Mages. Your Mage can solo the boss, and so can your Rogue. Taunt just makes things easier than they need to be. Just have durable tank and all your other characters don't even need to use any of their CC abilities, they can just DPS.

You know, if Dragon Age only kept track of party/PC deaths and reloads and actually made that info available for the public in your profile I really doubt you'd keep that opinion. :)

Modifié par TBastian, 07 mars 2010 - 08:33 .


#40
SOLID_EVEREST

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I never used it on Hard difficulty, but I guess some can't live without it.

#41
Timortis

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TBastian wrote...

You know, if Dragon Age only kept track of party/PC deaths and reloads and actually made that info available for the public in your profile I really doubt you'd keep that opinion. :)


I'm not even sure what that means? Are you implying somehow that I'm calling the game easy when I in fact get slaughtered all the time? If so, you couldn't be more wrong, but whatever. :lol:

#42
Timortis

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kombra wrote...

http://dragonage.wik...ts#Stealth_Tree


OK, this verifies what I've experienced and what Discobird said in his thread. It's impossible to stealth against Elite bosses and the people claiming to be able to do that with their cunning Rogues are full of it.

#43
TBastian

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I'm not even sure what that means? Are you implying somehow that I'm calling the game easy when I in fact get slaughtered all the time? If so, you couldn't be more wrong, but whatever.

True, you didn't say the game was "easy" outright. I assumed this because you used "easier".
If you had actually meant "less difficult", then let's keep it at "whatever".

Modifié par TBastian, 07 mars 2010 - 11:46 .


#44
Timortis

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I actually do think the game is easy, I was amused by the idea that I must be secretly getting slaughtered all the time. :P

#45
beancounter501

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The AI in civilization IV was so good because the devs learned what strategies most good players used in previous games and tried to implement them. In the end the game was much more difficult and challenging.  And the strategy/tactics in Civ is a whole LOT higher then DA.

Compared to Dragon Age, where the AI uses very little tactics. Iinstead the game is made more challenging by throwing large numbers of monsters at the player. Which is the easiest way to increase difficulty. Taunt/disengage is a poor gameplay mechanic because it is something that no player would be affected by. It is a player only ability. And for everyone complaining about there mages being overrun - well what stops you from overruning the enemy mages? Nothing, but the player gets some super ability that prevents any monster from  not attacking the highest defense character. It is just a poor design decision.

Modifié par beancounter501, 08 mars 2010 - 01:49 .


#46
mosspit

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soteria wrote...

Well, I disagree with BOTH your disagreements, and raise you a random derogatory remark about your respective mothers, so there. Am I doing it right?

Yes you are. Thank you.

beancounter501 wrote...
Compared to Dragon Age, where the AI uses very little tactics. Iinstead
the game is made more challenging by throwing large numbers of monsters
at the player. Which is the easiest way to increase difficulty.
Taunt/disengage is a poor gameplay mechanic because it is something that
no player would be affected by. It is a player only ability. And for
everyone complaining about there mages being overrun - well what stops
you from overruning the enemy mages? Nothing, but the player gets some
super ability that prevents any monster from  not attacking the highest
defense character. It is just a poor design decision.

There are certain battles which are strategically difficult where enemy has an edge like mages stting on ledges. That to me is something. I think the game is designed for the general in mind and not only catered to the micro-intensive community. It might be a poor design but to me its a good marketing decision. Moreover, gamers can choose to not use which some of you in this thread has clearly done.

#47
beancounter501

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But you are confusing tactically placed encounters vs a semi-decent AI. It is no more strategic then Baldurs Gate or Kotor. Only difference is they throw more critters at you. Actually Baldurs Gate was harder since your mage/rogue could pick up aggro easily. And they threw a lot of high level mages at you. Much more so then DA. Kotor was mind numbingly easy. Face it, Bioware is GREAT at developing a good story. The AI dept leaves a lot to be desired.


#48
Spitz6860

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there isn't any competition here really, you can use both at the same time.

#49
mosspit

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I stand corrected.

#50
TBastian

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Perhaps they could implement better AI in the PC-version DA:O. I don't think the console players would enjoy such changes.