167 réponses à ce sujet

[DPSSOC]

I think the genophage was the right call for two reasons.



1) Simply fighting the Krogan back would have only been a delaying measure, they would have rebuilt their numbers and simply attacked again at a later date, all the smarter for having been defeated before. You would end up with an endless cycle of war which wouldn't allow for the necessary social change needed for the Krogan to become productive members of Galactic society, which brings me to point 2



2) The Genophage forced the Krogan to change their ways, without it they would have been perfectly content to maintain the same race the Salarians found. The Genophage forced the Krogan culture to evolve or risk destruction, they could no longer engage in endless war with each other or anyone else. Think of it like this; if someone is remarkably bad at mathematics but is never penalized for it what incentive do they have to improve?

[Grizzly46]

DPSSOC wrote...

I think the genophage was the right call for two reasons.

1) Simply fighting the Krogan back would have only been a delaying measure, they would have rebuilt their numbers and simply attacked again at a later date, all the smarter for having been defeated before. You would end up with an endless cycle of war which wouldn't allow for the necessary social change needed for the Krogan to become productive members of Galactic society, which brings me to point 2

2) The Genophage forced the Krogan to change their ways, without it they would have been perfectly content to maintain the same race the Salarians found. The Genophage forced the Krogan culture to evolve or risk destruction, they could no longer engage in endless war with each other or anyone else. Think of it like this; if someone is remarkably bad at mathematics but is never penalized for it what incentive do they have to improve?

I appreciate you numbered your points - makes them easier to respond to.

1) How would they have been able to rebuild their numbers if they had been isolated? On Tuchanka sure, but there they would heve been forced to deal with, um, krogan... They are not productive members of the society - they are mercenaries, most of them, hiring themselves out to the highest bidder.

2) As far as I could see on Tuchanka, there were one krogan who had some kind of peaceful vision for the krogan, and that was that old guy Wrex... The krogan are like krogan: they fight because they want to fight - evolving a culture is not high on their agendas.

[Akka le Vil]

Funny. It's morally acceptable to slaughter millions of people to stem the tides of Krogan soldiers, but it's morally unacceptable to keep the Krogan restrained by limiting their population.



Weird reasonning.

[General Balls]

There are very few planets that can even support the insanely aggressive ecosystem that led to such a huge birth rate of the Krogan species. So when you take a fast-breeding, tough, aggressive species away from the environment that drilled these traits into it and stick them into a soft environment (which generally constitutes everywhere but Tuchanka) that doesn't kill them as much, you're going to get a population explosion of aggressive creatures with nothing to take that aggression out on (now that they don't spend half their lives fighting native creatures).
Have you ever seen what happens to a working cattle dog who's taken to the city (ie: nothing even resembling the cattle it's instincts tell it to work with)? Or, to make it more personal, what happens to a human when they're dumped in a white room with nothing to do? They fidget, get bored, search for something to take up their time. This is not their environment, and it gets on their nerves.
Applying the same logic to Krogan leads to a recipe for disaster, and with the Krogan Rebellions disaster struck.

From everything Mordin said the genophage's eventual goal was to adjust fertility rates to account for the fact that native animals/other Krogan weren't killing 99% of Krogan children. It's certainly not an ideal solution (which would have involved not using uplifted Krogan as a battering ram against the soured rachni in the first place), but if you want the Krogan to survive alongside other species it's the best for the situation. And it's bringing positive results, just look at Wrex's work.

Whether the decision was 'right' or 'wrong' is entirely subjective on the grounds that it depends on what you think is the ideal solution. Krogan Domination/Extinction goals aside, this is probably the best choice for the Citadel species if they want to co-exist peacefully alongside the Krogan until their mindset has evolved to the point that their technology has.

Modifié par General Balls, 06 mars 2010 - 01:09 .

[Siegdarth]

Well let's see.



1- Was the salarians and the cidadel that gave the krogan the technology of space travel and mass effect weapons for the sake of the galaxy during the Rachni Wars, that was close to giving atomic bombs to primitive tribes without any social or cultural violence controls. The blame falls in the hads of the people or the ones who used them?



2- Social and Cultural changes could place the krogan civilization on a forced birthrate control.





3- In the reality, lets imagine that an Neo maltusian alliance of countries decides that china or africa population is growing too fast and at someday in the future they will consume most resourses of the planet, thus leading to another worldwar. So to solve the problem without firing a shot, they develop a virus that reduces their imunological defenses, and so they will have a short lifespan, and their childs would be born with the same virus, so that will keep their population in control. That's not an etical thing to do, that's not something you should do other people or aliens, it's a war crime not limited to the military casualties and that will bring cultural and social depression of the given country, nation or species.

[Akka le Vil]

Siegdarth wrote...

3- In the reality, lets imagine that an Neo maltusian alliance of countries decides that china or africa population is growing too fast and at someday in the future they will consume most resourses of the planet, thus leading to another worldwar. So to solve the problem without firing a shot, they develop a virus that reduces their imunological defenses, and so they will have a short lifespan, and their childs would be born with the same virus, so that will keep their population in control. That's not an etical thing to do, that's not something you should do other people or aliens, it's a war crime not limited to the military casualties and that will bring cultural and social depression of the given country, nation or species.

This comparison is absurd.

First, the genophage doesn't kill Krogan, it lowers their birthrate. It's not "we'll shoot 999 children and only let one survive", it's "you'll get one thousand less children from now on". Birth control, not mass elimitation.

Second, you're comparing human to human. People in Africa and China are the same species than people in other country, they have not an innately higher birthrate nor an innately-built higher agression.

Finally, I'd like to her what OTHER solution you'd find. Fine to say "genophage is bad". I can understand. What is the ALTERNATIVE ?

Modifié par Akka le Vil, 06 mars 2010 - 01:46 .

[The Capital Gaultier]

DPSSOC wrote...

I think the genophage was the right call for two reasons.

1) Simply fighting the Krogan back would have only been a delaying measure, they would have rebuilt their numbers and simply attacked again at a later date, all the smarter for having been defeated before. You would end up with an endless cycle of war which wouldn't allow for the necessary social change needed for the Krogan to become productive members of Galactic society, which brings me to point 2

2) The Genophage forced the Krogan to change their ways, without it they would have been perfectly content to maintain the same race the Salarians found. The Genophage forced the Krogan culture to evolve or risk destruction, they could no longer engage in endless war with each other or anyone else. Think of it like this; if someone is remarkably bad at mathematics but is never penalized for it what incentive do they have to improve?

Even if you do believe that, you have to think of the consequences, too.

The Krogan will eventually cure the Genophage.  Their current society is heavily structured around the women and children a clan can protect.  When the Krogan do overcome the artificial limitation placed on their birth rates, their population will absolutely balloon again.  Even if you think the Genophage's goal to limit Krogan birth rate was the correct choice, there are long-term consequences that the Salarians haven't considered.

[rabbitchannel]

This is a good one, just like the Collector base. Although I'm inclined to say it was wrong, the arguments that it was necessary are too strong. I never had this problem in ME 1 and I am impressed that I was forced to make decisions to stay true to my own character. I usually play pure Paragon but I chose to keep the Genophage data and the Collector base. Destroying the data or the base felt like a clash against my character.

[Mooner911]

Krogan breed and kill. That's ALL they do. It's in their blood. It's their purpose. They have no other reason for existence.

Sounds to me like... Reapers.

[Space Shot]

Well with any "invasive" species natural population control measures (predators, limited carrying capacities) are thrown out the window. You could, in this case, let things go and hope that a new equilibrium would be reached, or you could take a more forceful approach and practices a system of "active management" but in either case you are left with detrimental impacts either through the displacement and possible extinction of local competitors (ie. Everyone else in the galaxy) or through endless warfare as some party (either you or the krogan themselves) try to control their numbers through violence. Or, you could modify their birthrate to prevent catastrophic population explosions and reciprocal galactic upheaval. Sounds good to me.

[Ryzaki]

I just want the Krogan to eventually wipe the Salarians out over an ancient grudge. I will seriously LOL.

[Someguy101]

the genophage was

i95.photobucket.com/albums/l123/bigredonenedm/lex-luthor-wrong.jpg

[Weiser_Cain]

Ryzaki wrote...

I just want the Krogan to eventually wipe the Salarians out over an ancient grudge. I will seriously LOL.

I want the humans to do the same to the turians

[Frybread76]

Grizzly46 wrote...

One thing I really liked with Mass Effect were all those moral dilemmas you had to face, and especially the krogan genophage - developed during the rebellions, reinforced later by the mastermind Mordin Solus. I can't help being split by this: yes, the krogan were heroes during the rachni war but became villains during the rebellions; yes, they threatened to destroy the galaxy with their numbers alone, and yes, the genophage was probably a good call... And yet, I can't condone it. What are your thoughts about it? Other solutions to the krogan problem?

I would have preferred to isolate the krogans on their homeworld. They are definately not technologically advanced enough to re-invent spaceflight anytime soon, and they will most likely destroy themsleves a couple of more times before they even found their way to their own moon...

The genophage was the best decision to deal with a problem caused by the Salarians.  Ultimately, the Salarians turned the krogan into a threat by uplifting them to fight the rachni, then had to use the genophage because they couldn't outright defeat them krogan.

[Werewolf2010]

I'm not sure. It's supposed to moderate the population to balanced levels with the other species, which sort of makes sense. Krogans weren't ment to be off world at this stage anyway and had evolved to endure the primal environment of their planet, which their violent antics, physical endurance, and birth rate made sense their species' survival. Taken off world and placed in an environment that wasn't nearly as harsh...it was bound to be a problem...space had a totally different ecologicial system.

The genophage made sense for stability, but it's wrong to the Krogans' who were ripped from their enviroment to fight someone else's war to begin with and are now forced to evolve unnaturally just to exist.

Modifié par Werewolf2010, 14 mars 2010 - 08:02 .

[Darkhour]

Grizzly46 wrote...

One thing I really liked with Mass Effect were all those moral dilemmas you had to face, and especially the krogan genophage - developed during the rebellions, reinforced later by the mastermind Mordin Solus. I can't help being split by this: yes, the krogan were heroes during the rachni war but became villains during the rebellions; yes, they threatened to destroy the galaxy with their numbers alone, and yes, the genophage was probably a good call... And yet, I can't condone it. What are your thoughts about it? Other solutions to the krogan problem?

I would have preferred to isolate the krogans on their homeworld. They are definately not technologically advanced enough to re-invent spaceflight anytime soon, and they will most likely destroy themsleves a couple of more times before they even found their way to their own moon...

It would be "prettier" if the females simply didn't have babies. It's all the stillborn babies that that make it "ugly". But it is a necessity as the krogan have yet to conquer their greatest challenge: themselves.

Even if peaceful coexistence was a guarantee they'd have to learn to use a condom. When you species can live for thousands upon thousands of years you can't just go about having 30 babies a month and expect it to not be a burden even on yourselves. What did they think was going to happen when they ran out of habitable worlds and resources. They wouldn't wear a condom so the turian choked them with one.

[Costin_Razvan]

What people do not realize about the Genophage is how it actually works.



Basically the Genophage makes it so that many children die at stillbirth ( as Wrex says in ME1 ). How many thousands of BILLIONS died already eh?

[Varus Praetor]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

You don't get to justify sterilizing an entire race. That kind of **** makes what Stalin and Hittler did seem like a stroll through the park.

Yeah, letting them wipe out all other intelligent life in the galaxy is a much better solution.  And they didn't steralize them, they reduced their population growth back to the levels it was at before their industrial revolution.  Back when there were enough predators on their homeworld to keep things in check.  In actuality if they hadn't gone with the genophage, they probably wouldn't have just killed all the Krogan with some kind of pathogen.  Nobody chooses extinction, every creature fights for existance.

[Varenus Luckmann]

Right or Wrong is irrelevant. It had to be done.

[Costin_Razvan]

Letting them wipe what?! You realize the Salarians never expected the Turians to use it right? You do realize when it was used that the Turians had already won the bloody war?

Secondly, no one get's to play God. The Salarians did so with the Krogan.

Third: The first use of the genophage might not have been that bad, but what Mordin and the Salarians did recently has no bloody sense. It wasn't like the levels would have been raised like they were pre-Genophage.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 06 mars 2010 - 10:09 .

[Jalem001]

The Genophage has killed untold billions, if not trillions.  Who knows, especially once you include the effect it has on a population (A people who cannot reproduce and thus do not have a future will do exactly what the Krogan did.  No civilization, not really, just a bunch of individuals or groups of individuals each trying to live it up).

But it was necessary.  It was wiping them out, letting them wipe out the galaxy (or enslave it), or the taking out their ability to wage wars (Incredible amount of numbers).  Genophage was the right call, although it has been going on for far longer then it should of.

[Costin_Razvan]

If the Turians were losing the war I would have agreed with you. But the Turians had WON the war.

[Deflagratio]

The Krogan would have done the same (Or worse) if they had the ability to. Genophage was wrong, but if faced with two wrongs (Galaxy wide war/massacres or Sterilization virus) I'm going to choose the wrong that favors my survivability.

[Dethateer]

De f- actually, the Turians along with pretty much everyone else were getting their asses kicked. They got desperate after the krogan took over several asari (iirc) colonies.