167 réponses à ce sujet

[Devidose]

Given the choices, and overall actions and mentality of the Krogan, "RAWR, SMASH!", it was the right thing to do.



Otherwise they would continue with their near exponential growth coupled with dominating mentality, caused mainly due to the fact they know they can Zerg, and become possible the only dominant space faring race.



Cue Reapers.



Ever seen a Krogan scientist? (Well yes... at least twice now...)

[Costin_Razvan]

Dethateer wrote...

De f- actually, the Turians along with pretty much everyone else were getting their asses kicked. They got desperate after the krogan took over several asari (iirc) colonies.

Read the wiki on the Krogan Rebelions.

[Dethateer]

Last time I checked, the krogan reproduced insanely fast. There is no way anyone can win a war against an exponentially-growing enemy THAT powerful.

[Sialboats]

I'd take the Genophage over what would be years of something that would end up killing more than the Genophage ever could, and destroying more property than the Genophage ever prevented from being built.

It's almost comperable to the War on Terror (and for this I know I'll get smeared and flamed because nobody can ever seem to get detached enough to discuss this appropriately  <_< ). It's the principle of sacrificing fewer amounts of people to prevent the slaughter of many at a later date. Rather have a few soldiers and civillians die now to weaken a future threat, than have millions of civillians perish in what many consider to be an unimaginable attack. Rather lose a few STG agents and several generations of Krogan than have billions of Citadel citizens and Council Forces die in what would make the Krogan Rebellions look like a tea social. 

[Busomjack]

The genophage was the right call. The Krogan evolved to have a high birth rate due to evolving on an extremely hostile homeworld. Their extremely high birth rate make it impossible for them to be a space faring species that can co-exist with the galactic community.

The only other alternatives to the genophage were to wipe out the Krogan, or let the Krogan wipe out galactic civilization.



It's not "eugenics" by the way. Eugenics is a pseudo-scientific belief that suggests that a species can be improved by making sure only those with desirable traits pass down their genes. The genophage affects all Krogan regardless of strength or intelligence.

[Busomjack]

Maviarab wrote...

Actually Busom...

Eugenics is the steralisation of others....forcably I might add....

Eugenics may involve sterilization but it's not just sterilization for the sake of sterilization.  It theorizes that human weaknesses can be weeded out by making sure only those with desirable traits reproduce.

Dr.Okeer was more of a eugenicist.  He believed that the genophage was making Krogan society weaker since every Krogan born was considered worthy just by means of having been born.

The Hitler parallel wouldn't make any sense.
Hitler was selective about which groups he wanted to procreate and which he did not.  The parallel with the genopage would only make sense if Hitler were trying to sterilize everybody which he certainly wasn't.
**** society offered huge incentives for white, non-Jewish Germans to have large famililes.

Modifié par Busomjack, 06 mars 2010 - 10:34 .

[Busomjack]

Maviarab wrote...

There is no 'may' about it...its how the term came about. Eugenics is the steralisation of people, I have no interest in what the word means in the modern world...I am referring to its inception. (though the steralisation is also to create a better master race I agree).

And the steralisation of a group to stop them from reproducing is the same as the genophage in its simplist form.
The fact that they were done for different reasons doesnt really change the outcome does it?

http://www.thefreedi...ry.com/eugenics

"The study of hereditary improvement of the human race by controlled
selective breeding."

The Turians weren't trying to improve the Krogan by sterilizing them.  They were just trying to reduce their numbers.  The genophage didn't discriminate, it is present in all Krogan, weak or strong. 
The genophage is clearly not eugenics.

Modifié par Busomjack, 06 mars 2010 - 10:41 .

[Busomjack]

Maviarab wrote...

lol..free dictionary quotes...
Dom some real research on the subject...come back to me in a few weeks when you have digested the information

Alright, I'll try to find information that doesn't contradict your baseless pre-conceived notions.

Seriously though, when you're in a hole the answer is not to keep digging.  Eugenics is about improving a species.  Dr.Okeer is a true Eugenicist and he provided a good explanation as to why the Genophage made Krogan weaker.

When only 1/1000 babies born are viable, then every one of them is going to be sacred.  That means all Krogan, even weak and stupid Krogan will be considered a gift.  That is why he created clones in an attempt to create Krogan that had only the best traits of the Krogan species and Grunt was his prototype.

[Busomjack]

Maviarab wrote...

Hole? Hardly...
As I said. I have no interest in what the current modern world thinks the word and act means...I am talking about when it was first implemented, something you obviously have little knowledge about.

The person who coined the term Eugenics was English anthropologist and philosopher Francis Galton in 1865.

He basically studied whether or not human ability and intelligence were hereditary and could be improved through selective breeding.
He never said anything about it just being sterilization and nothing more.

[Bob5312]

The Krogan are a warrior race, a medieval culture given advanced technology to fight the Rachni. But they believe that might makes right, and launched a war of conquest on the rest of the galaxy. They refused to surrender and were subjected to the genophage to eliminate the threat they posed.

It does not make sense to speak of the absolute morality of the genophage; rather, we should discuss its morality relative to the alternatives. If we accept the Salarians' and Turians' version of history, the only alternatives were endless war, the extinction of the Krogan species, or the genophage.

Bear in mind that in the game's timeline, this is a war that happened around the time that the Crusades were ramping up and the Mongols were laying waste to a fair proportion of the world's surface. Now imagine Ghengis Khan with nuclear weapons and spaceships.

If the genophage is what it takes to get that under control, then it's a nasty business but sometimes ugly things are necessary.

[Schneidend]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

Completely wrong decision. The genophage keeps the Krogan down without forcing them to adapt. It needs to be rethought entirely.

The genophage provides the krogan plenty of incentive to adapt, because extinction looms ever closer for each year they don't adapt. One would think that would be enough "force," but the krogan are a stubborn, durable people. Unfortunately, many refuse to adapt, or simply divorce themselves from the problem entirely and head out into the galaxy.

I agree, though, that the genophage itself needs to be rethought. It should have decreased conception rates, not birth rates.

[Ryzaki]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

Completely wrong decision. The genophage keeps the Krogan down without forcing them to adapt. It needs to be rethought entirely.

This pretty much.

[Destructo-Bot]

The genophage was right. Consider the Reapers, they'll be back sometime and the Krogan left to their own devices just nuke their planets and destroy their infrastructure over and over. They have little regard for science. So the Reapers show up and the Krogan dominated galaxy is done for.

With the Genophage active, the Krogan can OVERCOME it (not a sterility virus, it just limits the population growth to "pre industrial" levels) by actually working with each other to develop science and breeding programs to counteract the genophage. Result is Krogan become vastly more advanced on their own out of necessity.

If they never bother to work out the genophage themselves, it is clear that they would have simply over run the galaxy if given the chance and stagnated and destroyed what other species had done. Then the Reapers come and it's game over.

Genophage will save billions+ of Krogan lives in the end along with the rest of the species of the galaxy. The genophage is a doctor amputating a gangrene infected limb to save the body. Brutal, but necessary.

Modifié par Destructo-Bot, 06 mars 2010 - 11:06 .

[Devidose]

Maviarab wrote...

Otherwise they would continue with their near exponential growth coupled with dominating mentality

Bit like real life then with the human race?

Ever heard of Eugenics?....exactly why the Genophage is wrong.

Yes, I have heard of Eugenics, came up in one of my degrees a few times. Namely the Molecular Genetics one.

As someone pointed out, Krogen reproduce at a much higher rate than any other species in game. Tuchanka and it's star has caused the Krogan to breed to be extremely adaptive to pretty much everything they encounter, just look at the backstory to Mordin's loyalty mission. This was one of the key benefits that the Salarians and Council were able to capitalise on in the Rachni Wars. Krogan have secondary and tertiary organs with many other systems having a redundancy backup, mentioned in a convo with Wrex in ME2, should he be there.

Eugenics is not simply about destruction. It also still possibly occurs today. Read up about Yao Ming, the 7'6" Chinese national basketball player, who is currently the tallest player in the NBA. There are several proposed theories that he was the result of engenic planning.

Ryzaki wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

Completely
wrong decision. The genophage keeps the Krogan down without forcing
them to adapt. It needs to be rethought entirely.

This pretty much.

Mordin's loyality mission brief says otherwise. Were this not in the GD, I'd detail why, but no spoilers allowed here.

[Chaos-fusion]

I'd vote that it's right. If the krogan are too senseless to manage their populations or try to improve themselves cuturally, the rest of the galaxy is within reason to take steps against them.

Oww, now I feel heartless.

Modifié par Chaos-fusion, 07 mars 2010 - 12:04 .

[Chaos-fusion]

XxTaLoNxX wrote...

Let's say that Black people are overpopulating earth and are starting to rape and increase crime rates due to ethnical backgrounds. Would it be right for White people to make a virus that causes 90% of them to die or not able to reproduce basically amounting to massive genocide?

NO! So for you to think that anything similar to the genophage in a fictional world is still right whether logic dictates it is the only logical answer, then you have to find another answer that is equally effective and not morally horrendous.

Not a totally accurate comparison, but I'll just throw in my thoughts. The fact they are black is, to me, irrelivent. It would depend on the causes and other options. Also, the genophage doesn't kill people, just reduces birth rate - prevention is not murder. Do you not use contraception because it's "killing" your potential kids? That's not a fantastic comparison, but close enough.

Modifié par Chaos-fusion, 07 mars 2010 - 12:24 .

[bjdbwea]

EDIT: Oops, this is the non-spoiler forum.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 07 mars 2010 - 12:33 .