167 réponses à ce sujet

[DarkseidXIII]

EmmaBeeba wrote...

I think the genophage was necessary. Without it the Krogan would have been a serious danger to galaxy and themselves. Ideally, they should never have been bought into the whole mess in the first place... Mordin equates it to giving nuclear weapons to cave men (not exact quote - but something similar). The Krogan simply weren't culturally developed enough to be thrust into the galactic community.

I'm not sure why the Salarians could not have developed it as some sort of genetic birth control that prevents implantation, rather than causing still birth, as it seems to quite a lot.

YES!! Let's prepare for a future war with the krogan by genetically modifying ourselves instead of detouring conflict by curbing their birthrate. Rock On!!

[addiction21]

gmartin40 wrote...

addiction21 wrote...

gmartin40 wrote...

Lets point out that Genophage sounds like Genocide....

Butter sounds like Batter
Flour sounds like Flower
Witch sounds like Which
Two sounds like To and they both sound like Too.

Did you have a point? 

Genocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole
or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group. The Salarians unleashed the Genophage which is the "systematic desctruction" of the Krogan. Slowly they are dying out. But now, since the cure is close, it might all be reversed.

Oh so you did have a point and it is terrible.
It is not the systematic destruction of the Krogan. If they could develop something like the genophage (like IO said learn your suffix's and prefix's) then the salarians could of easily created something that killed them instead of just lowering the birthrate.
The Krogan are destroying themselves by failing to adept to this change. But then I guess you just slept thru the part that you visit the Krogan homeworld and learn about what and old party member is doing.

[ImperialOperative]

gmartin40 wrote...

What's your beef? Did I do something to you? Got a bug up your ass? Chill man I was just saying why I compared Genophage to Genocide. Then  you wanna go all NERD RAGE on me and insult me.

He didn't insult you, all he did was call your point "terrible."

[Ryzaki]

Landline wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Chaos-fusion wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Chaos-fusion wrote...

And if your enemy breeds faster than you, and is alot tougher to kill, then what? .. And when he's finished with your country and moves onto the next? And so on.

Maybe you should have left him on his planet where he was unaware of you no? 

would have been best, undoubtably. But they were needed to fight the rachni, since that war wasn't going so well for the citadel races at the time, if I remeber that right.

Truth which is exactly why I want to see the Salarians get owned. Yes petty and naive but hell they knew better desperate or no,  did it anyway and decided to punish the other group for their mistakes. Krogan's ascending and wiping them off the face of the galaxy would be lulz.

...and now I have a Krogan Reaper in my head. Oh noes.

They would whipe out the salarians, then the Turians, then the Volus, then the Elcor, then the asari, then the humans, then the quarians and so on.

And those groups would have brought it upon themselves. There's a reason you leave certain animals the hell alone.

You don't bring a wild monkey into your house and expect it to act like a housepet.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 07 mars 2010 - 03:44 .

[Trauma3x]

I don't know, cut your balls off and then ask that question.....I'm just saying.

[Grizzly46]

odinn93 wrote...

I think Mordins explanation is good enough. They weren´t ready for the galactic community. Without Tuchankas hostile environment to keep their numbers in check, their population exploded. They had to evolve beyond their lust for blood, rebuild Tuchanka (after the nuclear winter has past) and find their own solution to the shortage of resources that would follow after their population would increase. Only then they would be ready for the galactic community. But unfortunately, that might take tens of thousands, even hundreds of thousands of years (because of the nuclear winter).

And also....
The genophage isn´t that unethical. Without it, millions might suffer because of lack of resources and the eventual war that would follow (it´s exactly what happened in the Krogan Rebellions). And the Krogan wouldn´t be the only species whose most of offspring don´t survive birth.
Although it´s a little diffrent, Male human beings can produce millions of sperm cells at a short time. Only 1 or 2 ever become children. The rest die. So technically, humans have the same problem, but the Krogan offsprings just get a little bigger before they die.

You can't compare the genophage with sperms - the genophage do kill krogan children (fetuses that have developed into children and been born), whilst sperms are only half a life - not enough to prooduce a viable offspring.

If the genophage would indeed had caused sterility in the krogan then I wouldn't have said anything, but the genophage let children develop and then die.

[wrexfan32hanalei]

it was wrong, we didn't sterilize germany after WW1 to prevent WW2 from happening.

[William e]

[quote]Rodriguer2000 wrote...

[quote]Costin_Razvan wrote...

You don't get to justify sterilizing an entire race. That kind of **** makes what Stalin and Hittler did seem like a stroll through the park.
[/quote]

relax its a game

Just to say it was a game, justicvies that Hiter and others to this day was right.  To control or wipe out a culture is is what leads to why we have wars.  If you haven't looked we are all the same.  It may be a game, but it is a rpg, which means, do you believe that only your humanity exist, or we all exist and learn to live in a world,basised on understanding and trust and not fear?  The world we live in is not a game.

[Bob5312]

According to von Clausewitz, total war will always radicalize society because if one society shies away from an action that gives a strategic advantage despite being morally repugnant and the other side does not, then all other things being equal the side with the strategic advantage will win.

The genophage was certainly an extreme solution to the problem, but it stopped the war, stopped the killing, and saved the galaxy. Sometimes war doesn't determine who is right, only who is left; but sometimes that's all that matters.

[thegreateski]

It was necessary.



It will probably remain necessary for a long time to come.

[William e]

[quote]Bob5312 wrote...

According to von Clausewitz, total war will always radicalize society because if one society shies away from an action that gives a strategic advantage despite being morally repugnant and the other side does not, then all other things being equal the side with the strategic advantage will win.
The genophage was certainly an extreme solution to the problem, but it stopped the war, stopped the killing, and saved the galaxy. Sometimes war doesn't determine who is right, only who is left; but sometimes that's all that matters.

If that is all that matters, then why is it that we look upon all of the conquest and the horrors of war thru out the ages in shame of ourselfs?  To quote who believes that war is right, is to say that Hitler was right, Ceaser was right, and all the others who felt there way of the world was right.  According to a man who lived 2000 years ago,
there is only one path, that is thru peace.  I do not believe him to be the son of god, but I do believe what he said, that we are all the people of god.  Yu want a quote, Blessed are the children who shall inheart the earth.  Teach them peace not killing.

[The Capital Gaultier]

Chaos-fusion wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

Winning a war in a pyrrhic fashion isn't a good option.

Worse than being wiped out entirely?

It's a better option than creating a greater threat to your own well-being.

[The Capital Gaultier]

ImperialOperative wrote...

Genophage vs Extinction

The only other option was to annihilate the Krogan entirely, like they did with the rachni.

Whether it was "right" or "wrong" is irrelevant.

That is so not true.

[Bob5312]

William e wrote...

If that is all that matters, then why is it that we look upon all of the conquest and the horrors of war thru out the ages in shame of ourselfs?  To quote who believes that war is right, is to say that Hitler was right, Ceaser was right, and all the others who felt there way of the world was right.  According to a man who lived 2000 years ago,
there is only one path, that is thru peace.  I do not believe him to be the son of god, but I do believe what he said, that we are all the people of god.  Yu want a quote, Blessed are the children who shall inheart the earth.  Teach them peace not killing.

I'm not sure what your argument here is, except to say that war is bad and peace is good.  I can't really disagree with you there.  But I would like you to consider Hitler, in your example.  He believed in wars of conquest, and in enslaving the conquered.  The only way to stop him was to defeat him in a war.  Every nation that submitted to him was plundered of its resources and its population was oppressed, brutalized or murdered.

In this scenario, the Krogan are the Hitlers, the Ghengis Khans and the Caesars.  They launched a great war of conquest in search of 'lebensraum' (living space, in Hitler's own phrase).  The only way to stop them was to defeat them, and the races of the galaxy decided that the only way to do this long-term was to curb their birth rate; hence, the genophage. 

I think you're looking at the Krogan as the victims here, but that's a bit naive.  They started the war, they refused to surrender, and they suffered the consequences.

Now, given that the Salarians had elevated the Krogan to technological modernity before they were ready, and were thus directly responsible for putting the Krogan in the situation they found themselves in, you might ask whether in the wake of the genophage the galactic community had a responsibility to help stabilize and rebuild Krogan society.  In this respect the Council races failed the Krogan, in my opinion.  The Americans helped rebuild Japan and Germany after WWII and they are both modern, responsible nations today.  By contrast the failure to help rebuild Afghanistan in the aftermath of the Soviet invasion has kept that nation in basically the same state that the Krogan are in; different clans constantly fighting over scarce resources, with women and children caught in the middle.

[William e]

Bob5312 wrote...

William e wrote...

If that is all that matters, then why is it that we look upon all of the conquest and the horrors of war thru out the ages in shame of ourselfs?  To quote who believes that war is right, is to say that Hitler was right, Ceaser was right, and all the others who felt there way of the world was right.  According to a man who lived 2000 years ago,
there is only one path, that is thru peace.  I do not believe him to be the son of god, but I do believe what he said, that we are all the people of god.  Yu want a quote, Blessed are the children who shall inheart the earth.  Teach them peace not killing.

I'm not sure what your argument here is, except to say that war is bad and peace is good.  I can't really disagree with you there.  But I would like you to consider Hitler, in your example.  He believed in wars of conquest, and in enslaving the conquered.  The only way to stop him was to defeat him in a war.  Every nation that submitted to him was plundered of its resources and its population was oppressed, brutalized or murdered.

In this scenario, the Krogan are the Hitlers, the Ghengis Khans and the Caesars.  They launched a great war of conquest in search of 'lebensraum' (living space, in Hitler's own phrase).  The only way to stop them was to defeat them, and the races of the galaxy decided that the only way to do this long-term was to curb their birth rate; hence, the genophage. 

I think you're looking at the Krogan as the victims here, but that's a bit naive.  They started the war, they refused to surrender, and they suffered the consequences.

Now, given that the Salarians had elevated the Krogan to technological modernity before they were ready, and were thus directly responsible for putting the Krogan in the situation they found themselves in, you might ask whether in the wake of the genophage the galactic community had a responsibility to help stabilize and rebuild Krogan society.  In this respect the Council races failed the Krogan, in my opinion.  The Americans helped rebuild Japan and Germany after WWII and they are both modern, responsible nations today.  By contrast the failure to help rebuild Afghanistan in the aftermath of the Soviet invasion has kept that nation in basically the same state that the Krogan are in; different clans constantly fighting over scarce resources, with women and children caught in the middle.

that was what I was trying to say, yet you contine to argue for war not peace?  Not sure about you but I frought in a war and it is wrong.  But enough said about this.  Accept that I believe it is wrong and I acceppt you believe it is right. 

[The Capital Gaultier]

Bob5312 wrote...
I'm not sure what your argument here is, except to say that war is bad and peace is good.  I can't really disagree with you there.  But I would like you to consider Hitler, in your example.  He believed in wars of conquest, and in enslaving the conquered.  The only way to stop him was to defeat him in a war.  Every nation that submitted to him was plundered of its resources and its population was oppressed, brutalized or murdered.

In this scenario, the Krogan are the Hitlers, the Ghengis Khans and the Caesars.  They launched a great war of conquest in search of 'lebensraum' (living space, in Hitler's own phrase).  The only way to stop them was to defeat them, and the races of the galaxy decided that the only way to do this long-term was to curb their birth rate; hence, the genophage. 

I think you're looking at the Krogan as the victims here, but that's a bit naive.  They started the war, they refused to surrender, and they suffered the consequences.

Now, given that the Salarians had elevated the Krogan to technological modernity before they were ready, and were thus directly responsible for putting the Krogan in the situation they found themselves in, you might ask whether in the wake of the genophage the galactic community had a responsibility to help stabilize and rebuild Krogan society.  In this respect the Council races failed the Krogan, in my opinion.  The Americans helped rebuild Japan and Germany after WWII and they are both modern, responsible nations today.  By contrast the failure to help rebuild Afghanistan in the aftermath of the Soviet invasion has kept that nation in basically the same state that the Krogan are in; different clans constantly fighting over scarce resources, with women and children caught in the middle.

The situation is more analogous to World War I than World War II.  The Salarians have not solved the Krogan problem yet, not by a long shot.

[Bob5312]

William e wrote...

that was what I was trying to say, yet you contine to argue for war not peace?  Not sure about you but I frought in a war and it is wrong.  But enough said about this.  Accept that I believe it is wrong and I acceppt you believe it is right. 

I'm not saying war is good, I'm saying that sometimes it is necessary.  And sometimes you have to pick the lesser of two evils.  In WWII it was 'fight a long and horrible war or submit to German/Japanese conquest', in ME it was 'inflict the genophage on the Krogan, wipe them out completely, or fight an endless war against them'.  If the choice is between war and peace, I'll choose peace.  If the choice is between war and slavery, I'll choose war.  And, since you ask, I have fought in a war; I did a tour in Afghanistan last year.

Edit:  Capital Gaultier, I'm comparing the Krogan to the situation in Afghanistan rather than to Germany after WWII.  Although the use of the Genophage is probably closer to the use of the atomic bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Modifié par Bob5312, 07 mars 2010 - 06:21 .

[The Capital Gaultier]

Bob5312 wrote...

I'm not saying war is good, I'm saying that sometimes it is necessary.  And sometimes you have to pick the lesser of two evils.  In WWII it was 'fight a long and horrible war or submit to German/Japanese conquest', in ME it was 'inflict the genophage on the Krogan, wipe them out completely, or fight an endless war against them'.  If the choice is between war and peace, I'll choose peace.  If the choice is between war and slavery, I'll choose war.  And, since you ask, I have fought in a war; I did a tour in Afghanistan last year.

The Japanese did not intend to conquer America in World War II.  Not even close.  In the Krogan Wars, the Salarians failed to consider more than two of the options you mentioned, but there were other ways.

Modifié par The Capital Gaultier, 07 mars 2010 - 06:20 .

[Bob5312]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

The Japanese did not intend to conquer America in World War II.  Not even close.  In the Krogan Wars, the Salarians failed to consider more than two of the options you mentioned, but there were other ways.

Yes, I know the Japanese did not want to conquer America.  I meant that Germany wanted to conquer Europe and Japan wanted to conquer a 'Greater East Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere' which would have included Korea, China, Taiwan, Vietnam, Singapore, Burma, Thailand, Indonesia, and parts of India.  They had also been fighting a nearly genocidal war in Manchuria since the early 1930's; if you haven't, read The Rape of Nanking if you would like to know how they treated civilians in the conquered territories.

As for there being other ways, well...this is a fictional war that happened over a thousand years ago, so I don't know if you can really make that claim legitimately.  May I ask you to suggest some of the other options that might have been available?

[William e]

I have yet played ME1, waiting for it to show up so I can see what this game is about. I did two tours in Viet Nam and I think we both see things in a different light here. I just hope that when you talk to your children that you can give them the hope that war is not the way and they don't have to pay the price we did. I am out of this topic now, go in peace.

[The Capital Gaultier]

Bob5312 wrote...
Yes, I know the Japanese did not want to conquer America.  I meant that Germany wanted to conquer Europe and Japan wanted to conquer a 'Greater East Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere' which would have included Korea, China, Taiwan, Vietnam, Singapore, Burma, Thailand, Indonesia, and parts of India.  They had also been fighting a nearly genocidal war in Manchuria since the early 1930's; if you haven't, read The Rape of Nanking if you would like to know how they treated civilians in the conquered territories.

As for there being other ways, well...this is a fictional war that happened over a thousand years ago, so I don't know if you can really make that claim legitimately.  May I ask you to suggest some of the other options that might have been available?

The simple one is to do exactly what the Allies did to Germany in WWII: tear it all down and help rebuild over time.  That may be extremely costly in men and resources, but it'd seem to be a better option than the Genophage.

[Varus Praetor]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Letting them wipe what?! You realize the Salarians never expected the Turians to use it right? You do realize when it was used that the Turians had already won the bloody war?

Secondly, no one get's to play God. The Salarians did so with the Krogan.

Third: The first use of the genophage might not have been that bad, but what Mordin and the Salarians did recently has no bloody sense. It wasn't like the levels would have been raised like they were pre-Genophage.

The primary purpose of the genophage was to stabalize Krogan population growth.  The Turians may have won the first Krogan rebellion, but Krogan breed at an incredible rate.  They could afford to lose two or three wars and keep coming.  Eventually they would win from simple attrition unless you propose a blockade of their homeworld....which coupled with their incredible population growth would result in the death of billions or trillions....from starvation or civil war.  What a humanitarian solution.  The very beacon of compassion.

I think you overlook that the Krogan are the race that made the Rachni extinct, the race that kicked the hell out of the collective might of all the council races.  To pretend that the Krogan would have just stopped after winning a war or not have waged another having been sufficiently beaten, is moronic.  They wouldn't have had a choice.  Without a more stable birth rate their choices are exactly, starvation, civil war, or a war of conquest.  The genophage introduced another option.  I'm sure the Salarians tried to device some method of just reducing the number of fertilized eggs so that no actual death was occuring, but, not being a geneticist myself, I assume that's pretty difficult.

As for the newest genophage manipulation, if you can't see that any population growth coefficient greater than 1 would lead to war or starvation at some point, then you simply don't understand some very basic math and there is no hope.  If you need a more real world scenario then you need simply look at our own planet and the resource challenges we face.  Eventually we are going to have to make our population growth zero unless we can go out and colonize other planets, which is exactly the kind of behavior that sparked the Krogan rebellions.