167 réponses à ce sujet

[Bob5312]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

The simple one is to do exactly what the Allies did to Germany in WWII: tear it all down and help rebuild over time.  That may be extremely costly in men and resources, but it'd seem to be a better option than the Genophage.

I guess I assumed that this wasn't an option.  Not that I think it would be worth pursuing anyway, for two reasons.  The first is that Germany surrendered unconditionally after WWII, allowing the Allies free reign to rebuild the country as they saw fit.  As far as I know, the reason the genophage was deployed was that the Krogan refused to surrender.  Second, you say that it would be very costly in personnel to achieve.  In a war, it is generally not considered good strategy to choose a course of action that benefits your enemies at a significant cost to yourselves.  Please put yourself in the shoes of one of the people that would be asked to die to avoid hurting the Krogan (the enemy), and I think you'll get a different perspective on the sacrifice required.

[The Capital Gaultier]

Bob5312 wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

The simple one is to do exactly what the Allies did to Germany in WWII: tear it all down and help rebuild over time.  That may be extremely costly in men and resources, but it'd seem to be a better option than the Genophage.

I guess I assumed that this wasn't an option.  Not that I think it would be worth pursuing anyway, for two reasons.  The first is that Germany surrendered unconditionally after WWII, allowing the Allies free reign to rebuild the country as they saw fit.  As far as I know, the reason the genophage was deployed was that the Krogan refused to surrender.  Second, you say that it would be very costly in personnel to achieve.  In a war, it is generally not considered good strategy to choose a course of action that benefits your enemies at a significant cost to yourselves.  Please put yourself in the shoes of one of the people that would be asked to die to avoid hurting the Krogan (the enemy), and I think you'll get a different perspective on the sacrifice required.

The reason the Germans surrendered unconditionally was that they had no choice.  There were plenty of chances for the Germans to have surrendered conditionally, but Roosevelt didn't want that.

The reason it's a better choice is the benefit to the Salarians, not to the Krogan.  There is a moral argument to keeping the Krogan in line with the Genophage that I also happen to agree with, but the primary reason is survival.  The Salarians have set themselves up for a war ten times as bad as the Krogan Rebellions and they don't even see it coming.  I really want to slap Mordin when he says, "I've never seen a Krogan scientist worthy of the title."  The writing is on the wall: the Krogan will cure the Genophage and the results will not be favorable to the Salarians.

[ImperialOperative]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

ImperialOperative wrote...

Genophage vs Extinction

The only other option was to annihilate the Krogan entirely, like they did with the rachni.

Whether it was "right" or "wrong" is irrelevant.

That is so not true.

Care to elaborate?

[The Capital Gaultier]

ImperialOperative wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

ImperialOperative wrote...

Genophage vs Extinction

The only other option was to annihilate the Krogan entirely, like they did with the rachni.

Whether it was "right" or "wrong" is irrelevant.

That is so not true.

Care to elaborate?

Short: there's other options.

[Hulluliini]

Krogan are scary, so I figured it's a good thing..but I wouldn't have done it myself. I'm simply glad someone else did. But I can't help but wonder if they had to weaken the fertility as much as they did...one in every thousand survives?

[Bob5312]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

The reason the Germans surrendered unconditionally was that they had no choice.  There were plenty of chances for the Germans to have surrendered conditionally, but Roosevelt didn't want that.

The reason it's a better choice is the benefit to the Salarians, not to the Krogan.  There is a moral argument to keeping the Krogan in line with the Genophage that I also happen to agree with, but the primary reason is survival.  The Salarians have set themselves up for a war ten times as bad as the Krogan Rebellions and they don't even see it coming.  I really want to slap Mordin when he says, "I've never seen a Krogan scientist worthy of the title."  The writing is on the wall: the Krogan will cure the Genophage and the results will not be favorable to the Salarians.

Not to debate history with you, but the Germans never had a chance to surrender conditionally; the 'unconditional surrender' term was agreed at Casablanca in 1943 while Germany was still largely undefeated.  Regardless, the point is that unconditional surrender was the prerequisite for reconstruction, and the Krogan did not surrender unconditionally.

Your second point is fair.  I also believe that the Council races should be helping the Krogan rebuild and stabilize their society, but that doesn't really address the use of the genophage in the first place.

[ImperialOperative]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

Short: there's other options.

Diplomatic solution?  With battle hungry Krogan who can't even take care of their own homeworld?

Please, enlighten me to all of the solutions that don't end with the Krogan conquering the galaxy or the other species annihilating/restricting the Krogan.

[The Capital Gaultier]

Bob5312 wrote...
Not to debate history with you, but the Germans never had a chance to surrender conditionally; the 'unconditional surrender' term was agreed at Casablanca in 1943 while Germany was still largely undefeated.  Regardless, the point is that unconditional surrender was the prerequisite for reconstruction, and the Krogan did not surrender unconditionally.

Exactly.

Your second point is fair.  I also believe that the Council races should be helping the Krogan rebuild and stabilize their society, but that doesn't really address the use of the genophage in the first place.

The Genophage is not a "first place" thing.  The Salarians specifically sent commando teams back to Tuchanka to ensure that the Genophage was working to full effect.  If they intended to use it as a stopgap measure, I could understand it as a more viable option.  They've never showed this, though.

[Bob5312]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

The Genophage is not a "first place" thing.  The Salarians specifically sent commando teams back to Tuchanka to ensure that the Genophage was working to full effect.  If they intended to use it as a stopgap measure, I could understand it as a more viable option.  They've never showed this, though.

Good point. 

To be fair, I suppose the Salarians are reluctant to meddle in Krogan culture any more than they already have, and they're hoping to keep the genophage working until the Krogan can expand into the galaxy peacefully.  But they could help them along the way to their cultural renaissance, given how much damage they did. 

[The Capital Gaultier]

Bob5312 wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

The Genophage is not a "first place" thing.  The Salarians specifically sent commando teams back to Tuchanka to ensure that the Genophage was working to full effect.  If they intended to use it as a stopgap measure, I could understand it as a more viable option.  They've never showed this, though.

Good point. 

To be fair, I suppose the Salarians are reluctant to meddle in Krogan culture any more than they already have, and they're hoping to keep the genophage working until the Krogan can expand into the galaxy peacefully.  But they could help them along the way to their cultural renaissance, given how much damage they did. 

That is true.  I do wonder if the Salarians hope the Krogan will evolve their culture quickly enough to be peaceful members of the galaxy.

[Terror_K]

My basic view is that it's wrong, but at the same time something that must be. A bit like a necessary evil I suppose. The krogan were advanced too soon and too quickly which in itself was a mistake, and now they have to pay for the mistakes of others by suffering the genophage which is needed to stop them spreading across the galaxy quickly and violently.

[Varus Praetor]

Now, it has always been my assumption that,
being reptilian and based on the fact that they had a birth rate that
represented a true strategic advantage, Krogan gave birth in large clutches
somehow.  Each birth representing possibly dozens or more Krogan.  At
the very least each clutch would have to be 3 or 4 or it wouldn't have
represented the overwhelming strategic advantage that it was.  In my
opinion I place the number in the hundreds due to the significance that it is
given in the cannon.  For example Wrex notes that 1 in 1000 survive and
Mordin states that they stabilized Krogan population at pre-industrial
levels.  A stabilized population has a growth rate of 0%.  This means
each pair of Krogan has to give birth to 2 children plus some number to make up
for those who either choose not to procreate or who die before being able to do
so.  Lets say that this number is 2.1 (unlikely given their constant
fighting, but humor me), that means that each pair of krogan has to give birth
to 2100 children just to have their 2.1 viable children necessary to keep their
population growth from being negative. 

Why is this important?  If the Krogan had a reproductive system that was
more like ours where we generally only have one child per pregnancy then they
could have potentially fought massive overpopulation by simply not having sex
or using some form of birth control.  Now, if each birth represents 5
Krogan (a VERY low estimate simply for the sake of argument) then you have
a 250% growth rate.  Having 100 children per clutch gives a 5000% birth
rate.  This is assuming that each Krogan has a single mate, gives birth
only once, and there are no deaths prior to the new Krogan mating.  There
is no easy way to reduce this number.  If you want one child you have to
have around 5.  So unless they practice infanticide (which is no different
than the genophage currently is and could potentially be much worse) they have
an unsustainable population.  There is no way to fight it, no abstinence
or birth control will work.  The only solution would be to limit who could
procreate.  Does anyone see a race like the Krogan going for that? 

So, unless anyone has an argument that explains how anyone would have been able
to peacefully coexist with a race capable population growth greater than exponential
(each generation doubles) that lives for centuries, please let me know.  You don't even have to consider whether they are warlike or not, just the fact that they eat, breathe, and take up space is enough.

EDIT:

I had to add this because I thought it applied to this situation so well.  I found this little story on the wikipedia page for exponential growth in case anyone was curious.

"French children are told a story in which they imagine having a pond with water lily
leaves floating on the surface. The lily population doubles in size
every day and if left unchecked will smother the pond in 30 days,
killing all the other living things in the water. Day after day the
plant seems small and so it is decided to leave it to grow until it
half-covers the pond, before cutting it back. They are then asked, on
what day that will occur. This is revealed to be the 29th day, and then
there will be just one day to save the pond. (From Meadows et al. 1972,
p. 29 via Porritt 2005)"

Modifié par Varus Praetor, 07 mars 2010 - 08:01 .

[Grizzly46]

Massamies wrote...

Krogan bombarded 3 planets uninhabitable with asteroids, if they were able, they would have killed or enslaved all other species. Also you have to remember that krogan are only space-faring civilization that wasn't civilized enough to make it from the dawn of nuclear weapons to interstellar space travel by themselves, but actually were uncivilized enough to nuke themselves to stone age.

Exactly. A very bad mistake by the salarians to uplift the krogan. If the krogan would have been isolated on their planet they might perhaps after some time (and another nuclear war or two) come to a conclusion that their way is not a good way.

[Eag07]

The krogan need to develop as a culture, as a species. They need to transcend their warlike and conquering nature (if at all possible, but I think they have the potential), before the decision to keep their population in check can be reconsidered. The krogan are not yet ready for the technology of interstellar traveling, yet they have access to it. I feel they still would be a threat to other species, if left unchecked.

[EmperorSahlertz]

If the Salarians hadn't uplifted the Krogan the Rachni would have overrun the galaxy.



The genophage only lowered the birthrate of the Krogans to "normal" levels (ie. as the other galactic species), what is killing the Krogan right now is the social impact of only getting 0.1 child per clutch instead of 100. The Krogans own fatalism is their undoing, if they just gave up their warlike nature their species would be able to prosper again. Wrex is trying to get the Krogan's down this path.

[RyrineaNara]

My view it was wrong, because it destroyed their entire lively hood.

[MagicalSarai]

I think it was the correct move... it didn't destroy the Krogan livelyhood. As Mordin said: it brought their reproduction levels down to varible rates that were compatible with the rest of the species in the galaxy. The Krogan rapidly populate, but not only that: they are a violent and war prone race that if had their choice, would instigate another war without even hesitating. Even with the Reaper threat. By reigning in their population, the Krogan were forced to adapt and learn to value each and every life, even if their value of that is warped and twisted. Without the genophage the Krogan would have fought themselves to extinction.



Yes, the genophage is morally dark, but sometimes the ends DO justify the means.

[Matshelge]

But Krogans are reptiles... reptiles lay eggs, not birth children.



A stillbirth would be like the eggs you have in your fridge.

[EternalWolfe]

Matshelge wrote...

But Krogans are reptiles... reptiles lay eggs, not birth children.

A stillbirth would be like the eggs you have in your fridge.

Not all reptiles lay eggs - some give live birth.  Krogans may or may not, I don't think it says.

And it doesn't matter - even if they lay eggs, if only 1 out of 1000 are hatching . . .

Also, most of those eggs in your fridge?  Never fertilized.  So not stillborn - that would be more if it WAS fertalized and the chick died in the egg.

[EternalWolfe]

XxTaLoNxX wrote...

Ok, let's have a group of aliens come here (to Earth), tell us that we are a plague on the galaxy because we fight constant wars and are a threat, then incapacitate us and chop 99.9% of our mens balls off and tie the tubes on 99.9% of our women... all without our permission or knowledge.

I think I've seen that movie . . .

XxTaLoNxX wrote...

Imagine that and then tell me that the Genophage was right. It's a little different when you put the shoe on the other foot. I mean come on, the Krogan could have been contained, offenders to order neutralized and then shown the harm that they are causing. To call the Krogan unreasonable is to say that you haven't played through the game and paid attention to a certain few conversations, especially if you saved a certain Krogan on Virmire.

Except in your example, we weren't at war with the aliens.  The Krogan were at full-scale war with the Citadel races, forcefully taking planets from them - and the Citadel races were losing.  The Krogan choose to fight, the Krogan choose not make a diplomatic solution.  The Citadel races responded.  They could have destroyed them utterly with a few changes to the genophage, rather then lowering their viable reproduction rate to a more stable and sustainable level.

Was it right, ethical, moral?  No.  But under the circumstances, I see the reason for it.  And they choose to stop the Krogan, rather then to remove them completly - a far more 'wrong' reponse.

We really don't have the information to tell whether or not it was 'required' - we weren't there, and we have only the history we are told(and history favors the victor, of course).  Taken what we have been told, the choice is far less worse then it could have been.

[Matshelge]

EternalWolfe wrote...

Matshelge wrote...

But Krogans are reptiles... reptiles lay eggs, not birth children.

A stillbirth would be like the eggs you have in your fridge.

Not all reptiles lay eggs - some give live birth.  Krogans may or may not, I don't think it says.

And it doesn't matter - even if they lay eggs, if only 1 out of 1000 are hatching . . .

Also, most of those eggs in your fridge?  Never fertilized.  So not stillborn - that would be more if it WAS fertalized and the chick died in the egg.

Well, that all comes down to perspective from the Krogan view.
They see a egg there, never hatching, they might say it is stillborn. This would also fall in line with the whole thing about "not killing, preventing life" mantra.

[primero holodon]

Regardless of whether it was right or wrong we all know what will happen if they were cured...

[Ginnerben]

To the people arguing for the removal of the genophage - What other options can be taken at this point?



I don't think anyone will disagree that the chain of events set in motion by bringing the Krogan into the galactic society were far from ideal. But then again, faced with Rachni, what else would you suggest? The history of this is based upon a desperate grasp at survival.



I think too many people are considering this in a purely ideal vacuum, dissociated with its 'historical' context. Yes, influencing the Krogan to begin with wasn't great, but it was a necessary response. The genophage is far from morally pure, but if it comes down to that or a galactic extinction of all non-Krogan life, its the lesser of two evils.



Honestly, the best solution if they actually had to revoke the genophage would be to tell the Krogan they could only settle the Terminus system, induct all males into the army, and use them to stomp out piracy and bring more planets into the grasp of the Council. As far as I can tell, if the Krogan had a shot at life, but were even more likely to die a glorious death, they'd probably prefer it to the genophage. However, you'd have to come close to a 1 in every 1000 survival rate, to stop their population blooming. Even then, without knowing more about the male/female divide in Krogan biology, we don't know how well that would cut down their population. For all we know, 1 Krogan male could fertilise thousands of females, meaning that they're the real issue. If that is the case, limiting the male population wouldn't be nearly enough.





Oh, and Maviarab: Eugenics - Greek for "Good birth". The root word is all about promoting certain characteristics. The comparison to the genophage is completely missing the point. Eugenics is (and always has been) based upon the premise that certain traits are more attractive, and it would benefit humanity to make sure they are passed down.