271 réponses à ce sujet

[SithLordExarKun]

Murmillos wrote...

All levels are in the end linear, but at least ME1 gave a good illusion of non-linearity. Even after playing it 20 or so

Really? With the generic pirate bases with the same identical design, i fail to see how it even gave an "illusion" of non-linearity.

[Terror_K]

Poison_Berrie wrote...

I like that they gave different strengths to the weapon types. It fits in the defense system that's in place.
Basically what you want is a weapon that you would barely need to change. You want to run around using one gun.

Sort of, but not really... I still expect a shotgun to close-range massive damage and a sniper to be long-distance and slow-firing, etc. but it would be nice to be able to have a bunch of pistols that have different strengths and a bunch of shotguns with different strengths, etc. that we can mod in addition to that. Having essentially one of each type of weapon just simply isn't enough in an RPG, and players shouldn't be forced to switch to weapons they dislike to accomplish certain tasks. Let's not forget some classes can't even use certain weapons too. Like in ME1 if you knew you were going to be fighting a bunch of Geth soon you'd mod the gun appropriately for bonus synthetic damage, and mod back to organic damage if you knew you were going after mercs, etc. ME2 lacks this type of customisation entirely. ME3 needs to either give us more weapons of each type or bring back weapon mods, IMO. Preferably both.

SithLordExarKun wrote...

Here's a solution for ME3. Put the best of ME1 and ME2 together.

That's pretty much how I feel, particularly involving the weapons and armour system. Heck, one doesn't even need to go back to ME1's style on inventory at all: you could still have that done the ME2 way on the Normandy and in weapon loadout terminals but just give us more options and guns.

CLime wrote...

Most RPGs don't hand you the Uber Sword of Godslaying in the first quarter of the game.  Most RPGs don't innundate you with Pointy Sticks of Impotence after handing you said sword.

ME1's weapons may have had little variety, but that wasn't the main problem.  If the game had actually given you one worthwhile weapon every ten crates instead of ten useless weapons every one crate, the illusion wouldn't have been so transparent.

Yes, which proves the point I've been saying in these forums for a while now: the problem isn't the concept but the execution. ME1 failed because it had bad items that weren't different enough and God-items like the Spectre Gear and Colossus Armour didn't help things either by making all previous inventory obsolete. The items were the problem, not the inventory system itself. Yes, it also suffered from basic design problems, some of which were ironed out a bit in the PC version, but that's something that needed redesigning to allow sorting and multiple selection and buttons like "Sell All" and "Omni-gel All" and the like. What BioWare had on their hands with ME1 was a puppy with a couple of broken legs, but instead of putting a cast and splint on the puppy they just shot it and replaced it with a legless puppy.

CaptainZaysh wrote...

I did actually do that (to recreate my first Shepard, whom I lost through a hard drive crash).  I completely disagree with you.  To me, Omega and Illium feel and look much more open than The Citadel and Noveria.

Yes, but the hubs like Omega and sorta-hub Illium were the exception, not the rule. And I personally found that despite the nice design of the Zakera Wards in the new Citadel, the place was mostly pointless. Just a bunch of shops... a couple of small sidequests and a lot of pointless fluff that while amusing and entertaining to a degree lacked proper depth. The original Citadel might not have been as alive, but it at least had a dozen sidequests scattered about it.

I think the settings in the ME2 levels are light years ahead of those in ME1.  I mean, really, did moving around Feros really feel like moving around the upper levels of a network of ancient skyscrapers to you?

It did to me. The places in ME2 looked great, no mistake, but many felt more like a series of game environments design-wise rather than a real place you were wandering about. It didn't help that the battle locations were so riddled with obvious cover so you could tell when there'd be another fight before you even got to it. Visually ME2's places were fantastic, but in the actual physical design they felt far too linear, and the fact that there were next to no internal hubs like Zhu's Hope on Feros and Port Hanshan on Noveria and no sidequests didn't help things (Mordin's recruitment at least had a few minor semi-sidequests, but then that was Omega, another hub rather than a purely mission world.)

Modifié par Terror_K, 08 mars 2010 - 04:09 .

[WillieStyle]

Vena_86 wrote...
You will also find more people that prefer Pearl Harbor over the Godfather, though those few people that actually know the medium in depth will completely disagree.
 

I realize that this was a rather tangetial point in an early post, but I'd like to point out that it is very wrong.
Adjusted for inflation:
The Godfather (1974) made ~$600,600,700 gross domestic (#22 All-time)
Pearl Harbor (2001) made ~$266,945,000 gross domestic (#187 All time).

The view that the masses have terrible taste in art is often wrong.  This is escpecially true when talking about popular art like movies and video games.  Within genres (sci-fi/adventure, CRPG etc) popularity tracks quality pretty well in my opinion. 

In any case, to get back on topic, I prefer ME2 to ME1, though I enjoyed ME1 a great deal when I first bought it.  I commend Bioware for making the gameplay changes they did. It's my hope that the inventory changes in particular will revolutionize RPGs.  Hopefully, in Dragon Age 2: Big Trouble in Little Orlay, I won't have to vendor 27 rusty shortswords just so I can get enough gold to replace my shortsword of awesome +2 with a shortsword of awesome +3.

[Murmillos]

SithLordExarKun wrote...

Murmillos wrote...

All levels are in the end linear, but at least ME1 gave a good illusion of non-linearity. Even after playing it 20 or so

Really? With the generic pirate bases with the same identical design, i fail to see how it even gave an "illusion" of non-linearity.

Generic copy/paste levels is not a linearity issue.

[SithLordExarKun]

slimgrin wrote...



Look at the in game maps. There is more area to cover, and more branching paths in the maps of ME1.
No need to confuse the word linear here. I mean literally, more of a straight line to the end in ME2, with no fewer tributaries. Again, look at the game maps, it will be clear.

Trust me, i've looked at the maps and ME1's level design is FAR more generic than that of ME2. If anything ME1 was just as and perhaps even more linear than ME2's level design.

In fact ME1 had so many  identical  pirate bases i fail to see how its possibly more diverse and less linear than ME2 as many ME1 fanboys are implying.

[SithLordExarKun]

Murmillos wrote...

SithLordExarKun wrote...

Murmillos wrote...

All levels are in the end linear, but at least ME1 gave a good illusion of non-linearity. Even after playing it 20 or so

Really? With the generic pirate bases with the same identical design, i fail to see how it even gave an "illusion" of non-linearity.

Generic copy/paste levels is not a linearity issue.

Oh please the levels in ME1(noveria, feroes and therum) were just as linear as the missions in ME2, point a to point b to complete objective.

I fail to see how ME1 is any less linear and more "open ended" than ME2.

[WillieStyle]

Both ME1 and ME2 were fairly "linear." So was Baldur's Gate 2 for that matter.

In CRPGs there's the perpetual debate between Story-telling and freedom. Bioware has consistently gone in the direction of less plot-freedom but richer story-telling; whereas other developers like Bethesda have gone for the more free-roaming open world. I personally prefer the Bioware style of RPGs, but your mileage may vary. But whichever style you prefer, I fail to see how that's relevant to a discussion of the relative merits of ME1 and ME2 as they were both fairly linear.



Also, I'd like to say that "plot" is overrated. What makes a movie great isn't just what its about, but how its about. Two movies can tell the exact same story but in such different ways that one is superior to the other. In the same fashion, I think people do ME2 a disservice if they judge it merely by its plot summary. There was more character development in the "Archangel" quest alone than there was in all of ME1 in my opinion.

[Murmillos]

SithLordExarKun wrote...

Generic copy/paste levels is not a linearity issue.

Oh please the levels in ME1(noveria, feroes and therum) were just as linear as the missions in ME2, point a to point b to complete objective.

I fail to see how ME1 is any less linear and more "open ended" than ME2.

Therum, yes is straight forward mission - no options - the weakest of ME1 main-4 missions.
Feroes, is fairly straight forward; with the option killing all the colonist off or helping them and saving them.
Noveria, is still fairly straight forward, with multiple options in how to leave the base and with multiple choices in which order to complete the game within the science area - and the choice of what to do with the "queen". Making Noveria the most optional and non-linear map of ME1.
Virmire, mostly a straight forward mission, with the option of choosing whom remains behind.

-----------------------
v  Thanks Jav    v

Modifié par Murmillos, 08 mars 2010 - 06:08 .

[javierabegazo]

Just for you Murmillos

[Bann Duncan]

MarloMarlo wrote...

It's obvious where the inventory went. On your back. And what you can't carry was left on the ship.

Exactly. I don't understand how in the hell anyone who cares even slightly about RPing a character can be okay with Shep carrying hundreds of suits of armor and guns on him. Also, I hated having to carry the weapons I was not trained for in ME - I'm much happier now that I only carry the ones I can use.

[SurfaceBeneath]

Gee, remember when this thread was about the inventory system change? I sure do.

[Ginnerben]

Terror_K wrote...
Like in ME1 if you knew you were going to be fighting a bunch of Geth soon you'd mod the gun appropriately for bonus synthetic damage, and mod back to organic damage if you knew you were going after mercs, etc. 

Or, you just load your AR with Inferno Rounds, some heat redux and hit Overkill and Immunity then use your unlimited ammo, heatproof, highly accurate gun to mowdown every enemy over long distance.

Much as I liked ME, it is a flawed game.  The difference between beginning and the end is insane, you scale far too well with weapons and your skills are just insane.  There's a term for skills that run all the time - Passive skills.  Almost all of ME's buff skills should have been Passive by the time you reached top level.  Constant Immunity, constant Overkill... You just have to reactivate them every so often.  

The skill system would also not have made any sense for a sequel.  There were two options - Either Shepard and everyone he knew before the Lazarus project, lost all their skills, or they adapted them somehow, and accepted that after X years in the military, Shepard was about as good as he was ever going to get with his guns.  

Regarding inventory - I don't miss it.  I really don't.  The weapons in ME2 feel distinct, in a way that they didn't in ME1.  All that changed as you got higher level was the length of time you held down the trigger (Eventually reaching the "Tape the right trigger down and save your time" stage).  

And, once you had some decent gear (Which happened pretty damn soon) you had to spend the rest of the game forcing your way through menus to turn all that wonderful gear into sludge.  

Fantasy style RPG inventories just don't fit too well in Sci-fi settings, or outside of the "Young man growing up on the farm before discovering his destiny to save the world" cliche.  Why does the pride of the Alliance military, on board their most advanced warship have weapons that are trivialised by the equipment of basic mercenaries a few hours later?  When you become a Spectre, and get sent off to battle evil, why don't the Council give you top of the range gear?

Its an abstraction that BioWare have cleverly ditched.  Makes me much happier, rather than slavishly following tradition.  I also can't stand the claim that that anachronistic system is somehow in favour with roleplayers, given the scenarios I outlined above - How can it not break your immersion to find that despite being able to build the best ship in Citadel space, the Alliance can't afford to give their top men decent guns?  Hell, as I recall, Eden Prime is covered in gear that outshines your stuff.  

[Seraphael]

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

Gee, remember when this thread was about the inventory system change? I sure do.

Gotta have an inventory for all the barrels with +10 assault rifles of multiple puncturing, silly!

[javierabegazo]

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

Gee, remember when this thread was about the inventory system change? I sure do.

Yeah I know, I locked it with the intention of opening it back up when the OP had his material ready but a certain someone asked me to keep it open and so it is..  <,<

As soon as MajesticJazz has the material, I'm going to sink this thread and have him open a new one so we can begin discussing the intended topic anew

Modifié par javierabegazo, 08 mars 2010 - 06:33 .

[Murmillos]

I'M TAKING DIRECT CONTROL OF THIS MODERATOR

I'm sorry, were you saying something..?  

Modifié par javierabegazo, 08 mars 2010 - 06:41 .

[Terror_K]

Murmillos wrote...

SithLordExarKun wrote...

Generic copy/paste levels is not a linearity issue.

Oh please the levels in ME1(noveria, feroes and therum) were just as linear as the missions in ME2, point a to point b to complete objective.

I fail to see how ME1 is any less linear and more "open ended" than ME2.

Therum, yes is straight forward mission - no options - the weakest of ME1 main-4 missions.
Feroes, is fairly straight forward; with the option killing all the colonist off or helping them and saving them.
Noveria, is still fairly straight forward, with multiple options in how to leave the base and with multiple choices in which order to complete the game within the science area - and the choice of what to do with the "queen". Making Noveria the most optional and non-linear map of ME1.
Virmire, mostly a straight forward mission, with the option of choosing whom remains behind.

-----------------------
v  Thanks Jav    v

Ummm... you guys do realise we were talking about the levels being linear in a physical design sense regarding layout and literal level design and not talking about the content and context of the missions themselves, right? 

[Thalinor00]

If anyone remembers my first post on these new forums, I immediately went after BioWare removing the inventory system. At that point I was about 10 hours into the game and was going to stop playing. Everything I had remembered from ME1 just seemed different. After finishing the game I came back and reposted saying that I was wrong about some of my original statements. I am glad I stuck it out and continued playing the game. At the time I swore I would not pick up DLC; that feeling has changed as well and I now eagerly await new content.

A video game is like a baby and the people who work on the project, like its parents. Just like any parents, no one likes hearing they have an ugly child. This is in no way implying ME2 is an ugly child. The game grew on me and I have come to appreciate it as it is for what it is; a 3 rd person shooter. Ironically I hate 3 rd person shooters and yet by the end could say I still enjoyed the game.

We all know the dev’s read the forums so I am going to try and tread lightly here when I say the following; I mean this with no disrespect to your work and hope it’s taken as constructive and not as an attack. I felt less of a connection to the story throughout ME2 then I did with ME1. I feel ME2 was nothing more than gathering a team for ME3. We kind of got some back story on the characters but overall the entire game was “build your team”. ME1 took me about 60 hours to beat, while ME2 only took 34 to finish everything I could possibly do in the game. Looking back at all my original frustration, I think it came from the fact that by the time things started to pick up in the game, it felt like it was almost over. This feeling turned out to be true as shortly after the game ended.

If we can get 25 more hours of well written, actual story-plot related content in ME2 DLC then I think overall the game will live up to ME1, even with the game play changes. My biggest fear is that I paid $60 for a game that feels only 60% complete. DLC has been free so far and if it continues to be free then this will not be an issue, but I understand some of the arguments people have with the main plot feeling not as in depth as ME1. I think DLC will play more of a pivotal role in ME2 then it did in ME1. IMO I would rather have paid $60 for a 100% complete game and then paid extra for the DLC then get an unfinished game with free DLC. It’s not that I am an ungrateful ******; I would like to see BioWare make the extra revenue off of DLC without the player getting screwed out of a complete game. 

I do however understand what the company is trying to do for the player which is fight shady game retailers like Gamestop that screw over people with ******-poor trade-in offers that get overly marked up for resale. I commend BioWare for the effort to cut into this resale market and put an end to Gamestops crap. I just hope that the pencil pushers at EA don’t influence things and go for the "double dip", thus charging for DLC that should have been part of the game to begin with. You cannot have it both ways; give us a full length game and charge for DLC or give us what you have and keep DLC free to ORIGINAL owners of the game while charging people who buy used for the "extra" content.  (Those are quotes around "extra"....)


I have faith in BioWare, but not EA which is still on my sh|t list after they disbanded Origin Systems and screwed up the Ultima series.  It’s too bad Bethesda/Zenimax did not buy BioWare.

Modifié par Thalinor00, 08 mars 2010 - 10:44 .

[A Fhaol Bhig]

javierabegazo wrote...

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

Gee, remember when this thread was about the inventory system change? I sure do.

Yeah I know, I locked it with the intention of opening it back up when the OP had his material ready but a certain someone asked me to keep it open and so it is..  <,<

As soon as MajesticJazz has the material, I'm going to sink this thread and have him open a new one so we can begin discussing the intended topic anew

[TyDurden13]

I have a question for those who saw the presentation. When tehy talk about stuff to keep and improve for ME3, under "Keep" they have "Listening to Reviews & Fans," "gameplay focus," "Same team," and "Combat-narrative flow."



By "same team' do they mean dev team?

[Weiser_Cain]

Probably, I hope the expand the team as this seemed like a kinda small game.