166 réponses à ce sujet

[Comrade Bork]

sinosleep wrote...

If it takes the same amount of shots regardless, then what the hell difference does it make if one is instant and one is a dot? The AP ammo crowd would have a point, if there was a vid out there where AP ammo took something down in less shots fired than with inferno ammo. 

When using the Revenant/GPR, I like to take down a target very quickly, so I can switch to the other target. I usually don't stop shooting until the target is dead. If I have to wait for the damage to kick in over time, I have more bullets coming my way at that particular moment. Also, do a test with an assault rifle, and maybe I'll take your advice, but until I go test this out myself (waiting for my bro to get off), or you post a video, I will have to side with AP ammo for my playstyle.

[sinosleep]

Athenau wrote...

Did you watch the video's?

Yes and? In that particular case and for that particular enemy and for that particular weapon, it took the same number of shots to kill with both (though AP did do noticeably more damage). So if you're using a low ROF high damage weapon the decision comes down to whether AP will push you over a breakpoint.

So by all means use inferno ammo on a vanguard. But that case is not relevant to a soldier using an AR.

Once again, if it takes the same number of shots, then WHAT is noticeable about it? At the end of the day that is what matters. 

Modifié par sinosleep, 06 mars 2010 - 07:43 .

[Spyndel]

sinosleep wrote...

If it takes the same amount of shots regardless, then what the hell difference does it make if one is instant and one is a dot? The AP ammo crowd would have a point, if there was a vid out there where AP ammo took something down in less shots fired than with inferno ammo. Otherwise all you are doing is praising instant damage for the sake of praising instant damage. If the shots required to kill a target remain exactly the same, then it serves no tangible purpose. 

While this is generally true, and I dont think *anyone* would argue that AP is better than Inferno for a Vanguard, who desperately needs the seconds frequently provided by the soft CC, I dont think a shotgun VG is the best measure for this.

The shotgun at close range does such high damage, that each blast encompasses a wide range of damage. You could take 3 shots at something leaving only a sliver of health left, and it would still require another shot, whereas that damage difference might add up to real seconds with an automatic weapon.  Since the soldier doesnt *need* the CC quite as much as pure kill speed, I dont think the case is cut and dry.

I dont think AP is the best for any situation/character, and maybe not even most of them.  But I do know my weapons *feel* slightly more lethal with maxed out Tungsten, against the things I need them to be lethal against.  It could be entirely psychological.

Modifié par Spyndel, 06 mars 2010 - 07:53 .

[Athenau]

Sinosleep:

No. You don't understand how this works. High damage per shot weapons tend to wash out incremental advantages.

An example: Your weapon does 50 damage per shot. It takes 4 shots to kill an enemy with 200 health. Now up that damage by 25%. It STILL takes 4 shots.

I've played with both on a Revenant/Viper soldier. AP killed faster than inferno on health. By itself that wouldn't be so bad, but the CC of inferno was extremely unreliable. Sometimes I'd dump a long burst into someone and they still wouldn't go into the panic animation.

Believe me, I really wanted inferno to work out, because I could save my bonus power for something else.

Modifié par Athenau, 06 mars 2010 - 07:46 .

[_Dannok1234]

Athenau wrote...

Did you watch the video's?

Yes and? In that particular case and for that particular enemy and for that particular weapon, it took the same number of shots to kill with both (though AP did do noticeably more damage). So if you're using a low ROF high damage weapon the decision comes down to whether AP will push you over a breakpoint.

So by all means use inferno ammo on a vanguard. But that case is not relevant to a soldier using an AR.

Noticed you ignored the warp vs AP against collectors there. Anyway it seems like you are saying that weapons with high damage per shot benefit less from a 70% damage boost compared to weapons that do low damage per shot. I'm not sure how this makes sense. You lose any CC ability and you save yourself maybe 3 shots or so?
(Say something with has a ROF of 700  and AP saves you 3 bullets that would be 0,25 seconds for 10 points spent and loss of CC.)

[Athenau]

Noticed you ignored the warp vs AP against collectors there. Anyway it seems like you are saying that weapons with high damage per shot benefit less from a 70% damage boost compared to weapons that do low damage per shot. I'm not sure how this makes sense. You lose any CC ability and you save yourself maybe 3 shots or so?
(Say something with has a ROF of 700 and AP saves you 3 bullets that would be 0,25 seconds for 10 points spent and loss of CC.)

The lower the damage per shot, the closer your results will be to the theoretical advantage. Take my example above, only with a weapon that does 5 damage per shot. It takes 40 shots with no bonus, and 32 shots with the bonus, which reflects the 25% advantage exactly.

Modifié par Athenau, 06 mars 2010 - 07:50 .

[_Dannok1234]

okay, did a quick test, here's the results of revenant vs Klixen using Ap and inferno ammo.
Inferno ammo 34 shots. (on average, depending on headshots)
With AP ammo 30 shots (on average, depending on headshots)

So you buy yourself 4 less shots against something that has a lot of health for 10 talent points and you lose CC, you're also doing less damage against anything with a barrier then you would if you had taken Warp. The difference against regular enemies will be less I'm thinking, maybe 1-3 shots rather then 4.

So looking at the cost/benefit I really don't understand why someone would take AP for a class that already had inferno

Modifié par Dannok1234, 06 mars 2010 - 08:16 .

[Feops1]

Soldier is probably the easiest class in the game. If it isn't, it's at least the most straight forward.



The amount of damage you can put out is crazy, especially with all the headshots in slow-mo mode, and the class is effective at any range.

[Lord_Elessar]

the only problem with inferno ammo with soldier is that you need to gimp your soldier build a bit to get it.. It's a minimum 3 points in Disruptor ammo, unlike vanguard who gets inferno ammo right away... forcing you either to max disruptor ammo or have a gimped concussive shot



but the benefits are you get another bonus talent that could be better for your soldier (in theory...).

[Kurupt87]

^^i'd max disruptor and ignore cs every time. disruptor lets you /afk through geth missions while cs takes cd's away from HAR.

[Comrade Bork]

I just did a quick test of my own. I found that warp ammo was VERY good against collectors, I'll give you that. But I again found AP rounds to work better than Inferno rounds against health. A LOT better in my case, unlike the 4 shots you stated it saved me about 7-8 shots. I was facing Blue Suns for the AP/Inferno test in case you were wondering.

[_Dannok1234]

I have to admit, I wasn't aware that soldiers that take disruptor ammo are considered to be gimped

Modifié par Dannok1234, 06 mars 2010 - 08:38 .

[_Dannok1234]

Comrade Bork wrote...

I just did a quick test of my own. I found that warp ammo was VERY good against collectors, I'll give you that. But I again found AP rounds to work better than Inferno rounds against health. A LOT better in my case, unlike the 4 shots you stated it saved me about 7-8 shots. I was facing Blue Suns for the AP/Inferno test in case you were wondering.

What was the range and weapon? I'd like to try to replicate that

[Comrade Bork]

Dannok1234 wrote...

Comrade Bork wrote...

I just did a quick test of my own. I found that warp ammo was VERY good against collectors, I'll give you that. But I again found AP rounds to work better than Inferno rounds against health. A LOT better in my case, unlike the 4 shots you stated it saved me about 7-8 shots. I was facing Blue Suns for the AP/Inferno test in case you were wondering.

What was the range and weapon? I'd like to try to replicate that

Revenant and GPR, mid range, Zaeed's loyalty mission, first encounter. Only mission I had an old save for that wasn't geth. I could have tested the Avenger/Vindicator, but I forgot about them.

EDIT: My original statement was about the Rev. The GPR saved a little more once, and a little less once. I think it was because the fire rate between both trials was very different.

Modifié par Comrade Bork, 06 mars 2010 - 08:44 .

[_Dannok1234]

So your saying that you need 7-8 shots less with the Revenant against the health bar of a Blue suns soldier? I'm sorry but are you sure you didn't miss?

Edit: Either that or it's because I did it point blank to ensure consistency.

Modifié par Dannok1234, 06 mars 2010 - 08:44 .

[Comrade Bork]

Dannok1234 wrote...

So your saying that you need 7-8 shots less with the Revenant against the health bar of a Blue suns soldier? I'm sorry but are you sure you didn't miss?

Edit: Either that or it's because I did it point blank to ensure consistency.

Yes, I may have missed with one of the longer distance trials, but the mid range trials did not miss once. I was burst firing as to avoid that very chance.

EDIT: were you fighting the boss merc or the regular mercs. Or did you get the same result for both? Also, did you remember to tell your party members to stay behind? May be a stupid question, but that's what I did.

Modifié par Comrade Bork, 06 mars 2010 - 08:48 .

[Spyndel]

Dannok1234 wrote...

okay, did a quick test, here's the results of revenant vs Klixen using Ap and inferno ammo.
Inferno ammo 34 shots. (on average, depending on headshots)
With AP ammo 30 shots (on average, depending on headshots)

So you buy yourself 4 less shots against something that has a lot of health for 10 talent points and you lose CC, you're also doing less damage against anything with a barrier then you would if you had taken Warp. The difference against regular enemies will be less I'm thinking, maybe 1-3 shots rather then 4.

So looking at the cost/benefit I really don't understand why someone would take AP for a class that already had inferno

I have to admit, if this is at all accurate, you may be turning me around on AP ammo.

I just always got the feel there was something inangible benefit involved in the higher burst damage, because Tungsten loaded assault rifles just seemed to be more potent againt red bar enemies than  Inferno.  Just felt more lethal. Maybe I was imagining it.

[Athenau]

okay, did a quick test, here's the results of revenant vs Klixen using Ap and inferno ammo.

Inferno ammo 34 shots. (on average, depending on headshots)

With AP ammo 30 shots (on average, depending on headshots)



So you buy yourself 4 less shots against something that has a lot of health for 10 talent points and you lose CC, you're also doing less damage against anything with a barrier then you would if you had taken Warp. The difference against regular enemies will be less I'm thinking, maybe 1-3 shots rather then 4.



So looking at the cost/benefit I really don't understand why someone would take AP for a class that already had inferno

Er, are we looking at the same numbers? AP killed 13.3% faster. That proves my point, the DOT on health does hurt efficiency. Assuming that you have commando, that's a total 75% bonus for Inferno and 85% for Tungsten. If Inferno did its damage instantly you'd expect AP to be only 1.85/1.75 or 5.7% faster. Instead it was noticeably more.

Now if you're going to argue that 4 shots don't matter that's fine, but all you've really shown is that ammo powers don't matter much when you kill stuff so fast anyway.

[cxensign]

Soldier is the easiest class to run through insanity.  Adrenaline Rush is this insane beast you use to one shot things.  Other classes probably have a higher ceiling, but nothing is all that hard with a Soldier.

Taking AP or Warp ammo means giving up either Squad Cryo or Heavy Disruptor ammo.  Neither of those seem like a remotely good trade.

Disruptor ammo is key to one-shotting shielded enemies with a sniper rifle on insanity.  The disruptor ammo damage triggers first, stripping shields, and the full brunt of the base weapon damage goes onto health.  No other ammo does a thing to a shielded enemy.  There's also the yummy goodness of loading Disruptor Ammo into the Revenant against YMIRs.

[SmilingMirror]

cxensign wrote...

Soldier is the easiest class to run through insanity.  Adrenaline Rush is this insane beast you use to one shot things.  Other classes probably have a higher ceiling, but nothing is all that hard with a Soldier.

Taking AP or Warp ammo means giving up either Squad Cryo or Heavy Disruptor ammo.  Neither of those seem like a remotely good trade.

Disruptor ammo is key to one-shotting shielded enemies with a sniper rifle on insanity.  The disruptor ammo damage triggers first, stripping shields, and the full brunt of the base weapon damage goes onto health.  No other ammo does a thing to a shielded enemy.  There's also the yummy goodness of loading Disruptor Ammo into the Revenant against YMIRs.

No way. I'm sorry, but I don't think Soldier is the easiest class. I think it has the most practical dps of any class, doing amazing damage without setting up overly complex scenarios but its not the easiest.

I agree with you that AP or Warp ammo is an inefficient bonus talent for a soldier though. 

Modifié par SmilingMirror, 06 mars 2010 - 08:54 .

[Comrade Bork]

Also, I have found that AP ammo works better against synthetics than Inferno ammo. I have time to switch to Disruptor ammo if I am facing Geth, as I know that it will be worth it. But when I am facing mercs and their mechs at the same time, I find AP to be far more versatile.

[_Dannok1234]

DOT on health hurts efficiency? I've never said that Inferno ammo does damage to health. Whatever damage the dot does it probably pretty insignificant. It was a shock trooper with Miranda, but that doesn't really matter at all does it since it was the same exact same setup, just swapping out one ammo for the other.



What does the percentages matter at all. We are talking about 4 bullets for 10 talent points spent that could have been spent on something that gives you a more significant advantage. Not that I think a soldier really needs a bonus power at all. I'm perfectly happy to use inferno on any organic thats not shielded due to the CC benefits. Against stuff with shields I'll use Disruptor.



I've always been arguing that AP ammo's damage bonus to health is insignificant, and as you point out 70% damage to health turns out to be 13% more then none at all. Great uh

[Spyndel]

SmilingMirror wrote...

cxensign wrote...

Soldier is the easiest class to run through insanity.  Adrenaline Rush is this insane beast you use to one shot things.  Other classes probably have a higher ceiling, but nothing is all that hard with a Soldier.

Taking AP or Warp ammo means giving up either Squad Cryo or Heavy Disruptor ammo.  Neither of those seem like a remotely good trade.

Disruptor ammo is key to one-shotting shielded enemies with a sniper rifle on insanity.  The disruptor ammo damage triggers first, stripping shields, and the full brunt of the base weapon damage goes onto health.  No other ammo does a thing to a shielded enemy.  There's also the yummy goodness of loading Disruptor Ammo into the Revenant against YMIRs.

No way. I'm sorry, but I don't think Soldier is the easiest class. I think it has the most practical dps of any class, but its not the easiest.

I think people mean different things when they say soldier is "easiest" to play.  Its not so much easy because it dishes out incredible damage and waltzes through the game (though it does pretty well in that regards), but it is easy from a more practical standpoint.  Its an easy point and shoot playstyle familiar to anyone who has played a shooter, and doesnt require hassling with a bunch of different special abilities if you dont want. It doesnt require you to strategize around weaknesses like the other classes, because it has none, and has a weapon/ammo suitable for any situation in the game.

It's definitely the class Id recommend to a new player.

Modifié par Spyndel, 06 mars 2010 - 08:57 .

[Athenau]

Yes, mercs and mech together are a pain when you have Inferno. Inferno does less damage to synthetics and doesn't panic them at all. You can use disruptor for both and take down merc shields, but you already get a 1.2-1.35x damage multiplier against shields from your AR, so stacking shield damage runs into diminishing returns.

[Athenau]

DOT on health hurts efficiency? I've never said that Inferno ammo does damage to health. Whatever damage the dot does it probably pretty insignificant. It was a shock trooper with Miranda, but that doesn't really matter at all does it since it was the same exact same setup, just swapping out one ammo for the other.

You do realize that the more bonuses you stack, the less significant the ammo power becomes AT ALL right?

I've always been arguing that AP ammo's damage bonus to health is insignificant, and as you point out 70% damage to health turns out to be 13% more then none at all. Great uh

Um, it's a 70% advantage compared to no ammo power at all. But that's not the comparison you're making. You're comparing AP vs Inferno, and when people say that it's for 60% for Inferno and 70% for AP, therefore the difference is insignificant, they're wrong. And you've just proved it.
If an incremental advantage is all I can get, then I'll take it. But an advantage is still an advantage.

Modifié par Athenau, 06 mars 2010 - 09:07 .