166 réponses à ce sujet

[_Dannok1234]

@Comrade Bork
Uhm first Blue suns guy I run into at Zaed's mission, but doesn't really matter where. It takes at most 2 shots less to kill him point blank with body shots using AP ammo then it does inferno. It's hard to tell really as they go down so damn fast, that I might be using one shot too many with either type of ammo.

To everyone else.
The point I'm trying to make, which most people seem to miss is this.
AP ammo will save you 1-4 shots against any enemy with health compared to having used Inferno ammo against that same enemy. The fact is that ammo powers are pretty insignificant when it comes to damaging health. You want ammo powers for the other properties such as CC. Disruptor ruins guns and stuns synthetics, Inferno sets organics on fire so they panic. You spend 10 points on AP ammo and it gives you neither of those things.

So once again. You arre spending 10 points and your bonus power for something that will sometimes save you 0.25 seconds. So thats why I think it's a complete waste of talent points to take AP ammo on a class that has inferno.

Modifié par Dannok1234, 06 mars 2010 - 09:17 .

[Comrade Bork]

Dannok1234 wrote...

@Comrade Bork
Uhm first Blue suns guy I run into at Zaed's mission, but doesn't really matter where. It takes at most 2 shots more to kill him point blank with body shots using AP ammo then it does inferno. It's hard to tell really as they go down so damn fast, that I might be using one shot too many with either type of ammo.
To everyone else.
The point I'm trying to make, which most people seem to miss is this.
AP ammo will save you 1-4 shots against any enemy with health compared to having used Inferno ammo against that same enemy. The fact is that ammo powers are pretty insignificant when it comes to damaging health. You want ammo powers for the other properties such as CC. Disruptor ruins guns and stuns synthetics, Inferno sets organics on fire so they panic. You spend 10 points on AP ammo and it gives you neither of those things.

So once again. You arre spending 10 points and your bonus power for something that will sometimes save you 0.25 seconds. So thats why I think it's a complete waste of talent points to take AP ammo on a class that has inferno.

What about the cases when you have to fight both mechs and mercs? A lot of times, I don't have the time to constantly switch ammo, and AP is far more versatile than disruptor or incendiary rounds.

[Kurupt87]

tbh, i use inferno ammo, and when someone is low health i switch to the next target and let them burn to death. doesnt work everytime, because i don't know/can't see any numbers, so sometimes i have to switch back to him and shoot him 1 or 2 times more, but it works fine for me.
and as for diminishing returns, same with ap ammo as disruptor, AR gets bonus vs armour too. especially the rev, i think it's 1.4 vs armour and only 1.2 vs shields/barrier.
edit: dont have time to switch between ammos? please, it takes 1s, you just can't be bothered.

Modifié par Kurupt87, 06 mars 2010 - 09:20 .

[Athenau]

If you're using ammo powers for CC only, why would you ever use anything but disruptor? Overheats weapons and completely disables synths. Hell, why not use cryo on everything.
And inferno is unreliable CC anyway.

Kurupt87:

and as for diminishing returns, same with ap ammo as disruptor, AR gets bonus vs armour too. especially the rev, i think it's 1.4 vs armour and only 1.2 vs shields/barrier.

Mercs don't have armor.   You'll kill the mechs at roughly the same speed with both AP and disruptor, but you'll kill mercs faster with AP because you're already getting a multiplier against shields.

edit: dont have time to switch between ammos? please, it takes 1s, you just can't be bothered.

It's 1 second + 1.5 second cooldown which locks out adrenaline rush.  It matters in close fights.  You may not think it does, but it does.  Switching ammo in the middle of a fight is awkward and occasionally dangerous.

Modifié par Athenau, 06 mars 2010 - 09:26 .

[sinosleep]

An advantage is still and advantage, doesn't negate that that advantage could well be viewed as insignificant.

p.s. Inferno ammo is AOE cc, disrupter ammo is single target. 

Modifié par sinosleep, 06 mars 2010 - 09:25 .

[_Dannok1234]

@Athenau



Inferno ammo 60% vs armor. Tungsten 70% health/armor. Difference in bullets taken to kill Klixen 4.You call this significant and a well spent 10 talent points and bonus power. I disagree.



Would that pretty much sum it up?

[Athenau]

An advantage is still and advantage, doesn't negate that that advantage could well be viewed as insignificant.

Oh I agree. I'm of the mind that most of this theorycrafting is wasted on a soldier. The class will perform well no matter what build you choose. The differences between warp, AP, and inferno aren't significant in the grand scheme of things.

p.s. Inferno ammo is AOE cc, disrupter ammo is single target.

This is true, but I'd much rather have reliable single target shutdown like disruptor or cryo vs unreliable CC with an AOE.

Modifié par Athenau, 06 mars 2010 - 09:32 .

[_Dannok1234]

Just did a quicky test. You are incorrect about AP vs Merc's with shields. Disruptor kills them 2 bullets faster with 6 talent points spent hihi

[sinosleep]

Athenau wrote...
This is true, but I'd much rather have reliable single target shutdown like disruptor or cryo vs unreliable CC with an AOE.

I find disrupter and cryo to be just as unreliable as inferno. Disrupter doesn't always immediately shut down weapons, and cryo takes seconds to freeze. If they're all going to be unreliable I'd rather have the one that's an aoe. 

Modifié par sinosleep, 06 mars 2010 - 09:35 .

[_Dannok1234]

I'm not theorycrafting as such. I'm talking about general advice for people. I simply don't see how you will get more benefits from taking AP instead of using inferno/disruptor that a soldier has. Thats sort of what I've have been trying to say here all along. The tests done ingame was just to point out how (to me) tiny the difference is in terms of damage done to enemies using various ammo types is.



Because the difference is so small, I would always advice someone to take an ammo type that has some utility to it. Even if that isn't 100% reliable.

[Athenau]

Dannok1234:

Inferno ammo 60% vs armor. Tungsten 70% health/armor. Difference in bullets taken to kill Klixen 4.You call this significant and a well spent 10 talent points and bonus power. I disagree.

You keep saying 10 points without considering opportunity cost. What other ability are you going to pick? Warp ammo is +50% vs health and barriers while AP is 70% vs health. Against an enemy with health + barriers that's an average +50% bonus for warp and +35% for AP, or 1.5/1.35 = 11% faster kills if you have no other bonus. How many shots extra do you think that is? Is that significant?

You could pick a supplementary CC ability like slam or neural shock. How much is that worth to you? Is that significant?

Why don't you define what you consider "significant" and what you don't? Because, from where I'm standing, it looks like most of these choices that we're arguing about don't really have much impact on the game at all by your standards.

[sinosleep]

Personally, I like slam for short CD insta husk kills if you don't have two squadmates with pull to do it for you after shooting their armor off. 1 point is enough to serve that purpose though,

Modifié par sinosleep, 06 mars 2010 - 09:49 .

[thisisme8]

Athenau wrote...

Dannok1234:

Inferno ammo 60% vs armor. Tungsten 70% health/armor. Difference in bullets taken to kill Klixen 4.You call this significant and a well spent 10 talent points and bonus power. I disagree.

You keep saying 10 points without considering opportunity cost. What other ability are you going to pick? Warp ammo is +50% vs health and barriers while AP is 70% vs health. Against an enemy with health + barriers that's an average +50% bonus for warp and +35% for AP, or 1.5/1.35 = 11% faster kills if you have no other bonus. How many shots extra do you think that is? Is that significant?
You could pick a supplementary CC ability like slam or neural shock. How much is that worth to you? Is that significant?
Why don't you define what you consider "significant" and what you don't? Because, from where I'm standing, it looks like most of these choices that we're arguing about don't really have much impact on the game at all by your standards.

You don't have to pick any bonus powers.  My Soldier build is:

4 Inferno
1 Cryo
4 Concussive Blast
4 Squad Disruptor
4 Heightened Adrenaline Rush
4 Soldier Passive for Paragon/Renegade...  forgot name.

Inferno works on armor and health plus it AoE panics organics.  Cryo is barely used on my Soldier.  Concussive Blast is an AoE stagger vs. defense and knockback vs. health.  Squad Disruptor for Geth or Blue Suns mishes.  Don't even use adrenaline rush as I always forget I have it...  And the Soldier passive is simply for Dialogue.  Aside from the passive, what bonus power could possibly benefit my Soldier over his inherent powers?

[Stengahpolis]

swk3000 wrote...

Frankly, the only two weapons I use at all are the Sniper Rifle and the Assault Rifle. The Shotgun and the Pistol are never used.

Also, what's this LMG you're talking about?

Finally, I've pretty much had my question answered: the general consensus is that I'm a horrible shot. I knew that already, but apparently it's far worse than I thought, because everyone can apparently walk into a fight with the Mantis and never have to switch to any other weapon. Where they're getting all this extra ammo from without risking death every time they step out of cover is beyond me, but apparently that's what's happening.

I get the sense that you're trying to use the mantis as your main weapon.
If that's the case, then you've found your problem. The mantis and the widow both do a hell of a lot of damage with each shot, but they have a very limited ammo capacity. This means that you must pick your shots and pick your targets.
Picking your shots is pretty straight-forward: make every shot count. You have to be patient. Wait for your target to leave cover, aim, activate AR, line up the headshot, then pull the trigger. Again, be patient: if you don't have the shot, don't pull the trigger.
Picking targets is equally important. You need to make each shot hit, but you also need to make each shot go where it will do the most good. This means dangerous ranged enemies are your primary targets. Close range foes are better dealt with using other weapons. For example, if you're fighting Blue Suns, you might have a couple of rocket-wielding heavies in the back and some troopers at close to mid range. Use the mantis to one-shot the heavies, but don't waste sniper ammo on the troopers since they can be killed with two bursts from the vindicator.

[ObserverStatus]

I haven't played every class, but being a soldier was definitely easier than adept.

[Ecael]

Really, Commander?

[_Dannok1234]

I've already said what I'd spend those 10 points on rather then AP/warp, which would be Inferno/Disruptor ammo. Giving you occasional CC and stopping regeneration in case the armored enemy you are fighting ducks behind cover, or stun/weapon disable with disruptor. To me those are things that impact the game play more then a few bullets more or less.

[Athenau]

Just did a quicky test. You are incorrect about AP vs Merc's with shields. Disruptor kills them 2 bullets faster with 6 talent points spent hihi

Just tried this. 18 Revenant shots with AP and 21 shots with disruptor. Heavy disruptor/tungsten/commando, tested on an Eclipse trooper firing single shots to the torso at midrange.

I've already said what I'd spend those 10 points on rather then AP/warp, which would be Inferno/Disruptor ammo. Giving you occasional CC and stopping regeneration in case the armored enemy you are fighting ducks behind cover, or stun/weapon disable with disruptor. To me those are things that impact the game play more then a few bullets more or less.

Fair enough.  So you'd pick Disruptor + Inferno + Conc shot over a bonus power.  I'd pick AP + Disruptor + Conc shot.  I don't find Inferno's CC very useful.  You do.  I noticed the damage boost from AP.  You didn't.  So what's all the fuss about?

Modifié par Athenau, 06 mars 2010 - 10:20 .

[thisisme8]

Dannok1234 wrote...

I've already said what I'd spend those 10 points on rather then AP/warp, which would be Inferno/Disruptor ammo. Giving you occasional CC and stopping regeneration in case the armored enemy you are fighting ducks behind cover, or stun/weapon disable with disruptor. To me those are things that impact the game play more then a few bullets more or less.

I agree.  And with four regular and one heavy weapon, you should never be without a method to madness.

[thisisme8]

Athenau wrote...

Just did a quicky test. You are incorrect about AP vs Merc's with shields. Disruptor kills them 2 bullets faster with 6 talent points spent hihi

Just tried this. 18 Revenant shots with AP and 21 shots with disruptor. Heavy disruptor/tungsten/commando, tested on an Eclipse trooper firing single shots to the torso at midrange.

Try it again with Tungsten vs. Inferno.

[_Dannok1234]

Athenau wrote...

Just tried this. 18 Revenant shots with AP and 21 shots with disruptor. Heavy disruptor/tungsten/commando, tested on an Eclipse trooper firing single shots to the torso at midrange.

Thats really odd, I was doing it on a blue suns chap, all torso shots point blank range with the revenant. 14 shots(Dis) instead of 16(ap).

[Athenau]

Do you know a good spot to find a low level merc alone? Right now I have to do the first half of an annoying fight every time I want to test.

[_Dannok1234]

Not off the top of my head, I used the first one on Zaeed's mission but that was far from ideal. Had to use HAR+Sprint to get close then I just had time to kill him and note how many bullets I used before his friends killed me.

edit :Could have been a freak accident that it took less shots or I managed to stop in time or something, I dunno.

Modifié par Dannok1234, 06 mars 2010 - 10:40 .

[SmilingMirror]

Athenau wrote...

edit: dont have time to switch between ammos? please, it takes 1s, you just can't be bothered.

It's 1 second + 1.5 second cooldown which locks out adrenaline rush.  It matters in close fights.  You may not think it does, but it does.  Switching ammo in the middle of a fight is awkward and occasionally dangerous.

Couldn't agree more here. Personally, I think inferno works better as squad ammo, because the panic time actually matters. If your using AP ammo, panicing matters less because they're dead sooner.

Also, what's this LMG you're talking about?

Large Machine Gun aka Revenant

Modifié par SmilingMirror, 06 mars 2010 - 11:05 .

[tonnactus]

bobobo878 wrote...

I haven't played every class, but being a soldier was definitely easier than adept.

You made something wrong or the class isnt the right one for you.All those people whine about scions and husks.Enemies the adept laughs about.Its the same with krogan bosses and flamethrower vorchas in garrus mission.Such an easy time i dont have with any other class.