214 réponses à ce sujet

[Jagri]

In the end I am most certain that my Shepard will get the Council support even if he has to drag them to it kicking and screaming. Hopefully this time Shepard has pictures, video, or audio recordings to prove his claims.

[applehug]

People who say Shepard stabbed TIM in the back need to remember one thing. The whole galaxy owes you from saving their ass from the Reapers.

[Soma Holiday]

implodinggoat wrote...

A:  Wait until I got on the shuttle off the Lazarus facility, then shoot Jacob and Miranda in the back of the head and set a course for the Citadel.
 
And when I say I'd arrest or kill everyone, I mean everyone including Jacob, Miranda, Yeoman Kelly, Doctor Chakwas and Joker.   I do not **** around and I do not forgive and forget.

You sir, are a badass.

That A option would have been epic.

I agree with what you said, especially taking Toombs into account.  I didn't do the sole survivor background but I still felt a strong connection with Toombs and I feel like I owe it to him alone to skin the illusive man alive and then feed him to a thresher maw.

nice thread.

[rabbitchannel]

applehug wrote...

People who say Shepard stabbed TIM in the back need to remember one thing. The whole galaxy owes you from saving their ass from the Reapers.

This may be because I'm drowsy right now, but what is the connection? The galaxy owes you a great deal. How does that justify stabbing TIM in the back?

[The Angry One]

SuperZombieChow wrote...

The Angry One wrote...



Right even if you brought with you proof that you're not working with Cerberus, like the encrypted data?


You never give them a real shot, because TIM has already sent out the rumours that you're working with Cerberus and you never get the chance to say "Hey, help me and I'll drop Cerberus right now. Here's their valuable data, and a ship you can impound."

Yes, even if you brought them the encrypted data. You're telling me that if a presumed dead marine wearing an Al Qaeda uniform walked into the pentagon today with some coded reconnasance reports and half his nervous system replaced with technology that does god knows what, the pentagon would fund him and put a marine contingent under his command? Not a chance in hell, regardless of said soldiers service record. The fact that you give them a new Normandy would hardly bridge that gap either. They'd imprison Shepard until they could be absolutely certain nothing in his system is transmitting data or adversely effecting his judgement, turning over whatever data was found to some other N7 operative who may or may not believe in this whole "reaper" business.

The Council and the Alliance did the prudent thing with Shepard, the same thing I would have done in their place. They took one look at him, decided that he was going to use up his one "get out of trouble free pass" for helping them stop Saren, and let him go on his merry way into the Terminus System rather then imprison him until they can figure out EXACTLY what all the crap wired into his body does. Until then, no top secret alliance intel, no access to council resources, no nothing. If Shepard is going to do anything, he's on his own with whatever backers (TIM) he can collect on his own.

If we were to go by your analogy then the Council would've hard Shepard arrested and their ship impounded the moment they set foot on the Citadel.
Instead they reinstate Shepard's Spectre status, thus giving tacit approval. Shep has no option to build on that and offer to reject Cerberus, which is silly.

[The Angry One]

rab****annel wrote...

applehug wrote...

People who say Shepard stabbed TIM in the back need to remember one thing. The whole galaxy owes you from saving their ass from the Reapers.

This may be because I'm drowsy right now, but what is the connection? The galaxy owes you a great deal. How does that justify stabbing TIM in the back?

Well for one thing you saved the galaxy, that's where TIM has all his stuff. In other words he owed you, he paid you back by resurrecting you.. now you're even.

[intersect]

Soma Holiday wrote...

implodinggoat wrote...

A:  Wait until I got on the shuttle off the Lazarus facility, then shoot Jacob and Miranda in the back of the head and set a course for the Citadel.
 
And when I say I'd arrest or kill everyone, I mean everyone including Jacob, Miranda, Yeoman Kelly, Doctor Chakwas and Joker.   I do not **** around and I do not forgive and forget.

You sir, are a badass.

That A option would have been epic.

I agree with what you said, especially taking Toombs into account.  I didn't do the sole survivor background but I still felt a strong connection with Toombs and I feel like I owe it to him alone to skin the illusive man alive and then feed him to a thresher maw.

nice thread.

A dead badass maybe

[implodinggoat]

rab****annel wrote...

implodinggoat wrote...

rab****annel wrote...

Yes, new car = resurrection. Totally.

Cerberus isn't a terrorist organization. That is only its reputation. You think you'd be able to dock at the Citadel and have one-on-one chats with the Human Councillor and the Ambassador with the SR2 flagged as Cerberus?

This again. TIM is evil! I'd never work for him! What, my loyal crew? F*** them! What a hypocrite. 

Really not terrorists?   Turning several hundred people into Husks for an experiment doesn't make you a terrorist?  Alright fine it makes you Joseph Mengele and thats way better isn't it?

Accusing me of hypocrisy is not a good idea considering the fact that I've written several ethical philosophy papers on that very subject.  Consider, you are the one who accepts working with an orginization which slaughters human beings for its own ends for the supposed end of saving human beings.   I'm the one proposing that no one is above justice no matter how loyal to me they may be, even if they're my friends.   To say that no man is above justice is the antithesis of hypocrisy.

Now who would you say is the real hypocrite eh?

The question is not whether or not they are actually terrorists. Your point was that terrorists don't have property rights. I refuted that. They may be viewed as terrorists by a majority but not by the Citadel and the council.

You seem to be having trouble following me. I am (edit) NOT pulling the holier-than-thou card like many of you. I am merely stating that betraying Cerberus is not easily done and it will have repercussions on you and those following you. Your crew is not evil. They may be Cerberus but that doesn't mean they're evil. Take Miranda and Jacob, for example. You generalize all of them and catch those who have genuinely supported you and your cause in the crossfire. 

Accusing me of being a hypocrite would be foolish because I wasn't saying that TIM and Cerberus is good in the first place. Also I'm a pastor. No, Im not. See what I did there? Claims as to your competency and profession don't matter. Just make your arguments and if they're good then that's all that should matter.

First the council specifically says that they classify Cerberus as a terrorist organization so you're just wrong on that one.

I'm not being holier than though, I am using logic.   If you value the liberty of rational beings affiliating yourself with an organization which does not is hypocritical.   The only justification any of your crew gives you for siding with an organization which regularly commits acts of torture and mass murder is "Well, they get the job done." and that weak bull**** doesn't cut it.   Its true your crew isn't "evil"  per say; but they sided with an organization which is and it is only just that they be held accountable for that choice.   Besides I never accused them of being "evil"  (that was your terminology),  I accused them of injustice.   Justice demands they be held accountable for their poor choices.

Jihadists think they are fighting for the cause of divine goodness.   Like your crew they aren't evil, rather they have been deluded into believing a false concept of justice.   They should be pitied; but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be arrested or killed should they choose to resist.

[The Angry One]

intersect wrote...

Soma Holiday wrote...

implodinggoat wrote...

A:  Wait until I got on the shuttle off the Lazarus facility, then shoot Jacob and Miranda in the back of the head and set a course for the Citadel.
 
And when I say I'd arrest or kill everyone, I mean everyone including Jacob, Miranda, Yeoman Kelly, Doctor Chakwas and Joker.   I do not **** around and I do not forgive and forget.

You sir, are a badass.

That A option would have been epic.

I agree with what you said, especially taking Toombs into account.  I didn't do the sole survivor background but I still felt a strong connection with Toombs and I feel like I owe it to him alone to skin the illusive man alive and then feed him to a thresher maw.

nice thread.

A dead badass maybe

How do you figure? Shepard has killed more worthy opponents than Cerberus garbage before ME1 even starts.

[intersect]

worthiness has nothing to do with it, tactical advantage and positioning does. You are on a Cerberus ship completely surrounded by Cerberus personnel. You can only face one direction at a time, and joker/EDI have control of the ship

[The Angry One]

intersect wrote...

worthiness has nothing to do with it, tactical advantage and positioning does. You are on a Cerberus ship completely surrounded by Cerberus personnel. You can only face one direction at a time, and joker/EDI have control of the ship

Once again, that's why you dock at the Citadel, pretend everything's business as usual then go to Anderson. have C-Sec lock the ship down and have Alliance marines board the ship.

[intersect]

The Angry One wrote...

intersect wrote...

worthiness has nothing to do with it, tactical advantage and positioning does. You are on a Cerberus ship completely surrounded by Cerberus personnel. You can only face one direction at a time, and joker/EDI have control of the ship

Once again, that's why you dock at the Citadel, pretend everything's business as usual then go to Anderson. have C-Sec lock the ship down and have Alliance marines board the ship.

That would work, but its not what i was disputing

[implodinggoat]

intersect wrote...

worthiness has nothing to do with it, tactical advantage and positioning does. You are on a Cerberus ship completely surrounded by Cerberus personnel. You can only face one direction at a time, and joker/EDI have control of the ship

Yes unnarmed personel.  None of which are wearing armor.  Plus you're Shepard.

Modifié par implodinggoat, 06 mars 2010 - 06:20 .

[Frybread76]

I would have played it cool until I got my Spectre status restored. Then, I would have continued to "work" for Cerberus until the end of the game. I would have kept the Collector base but turned it over to the Council instead of Cerberus. If Jacob, Miranda, and/or any of my crew had a problem with that, I would either kill or arrest them for interrogation by Council agents.

[Zulu_DFA]

OP, why do you wear TIM's portrait?



And



I think that mad batarian prophet on Omega was talking about you.

[implodinggoat]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

OP, why do you wear TIM's portrait?

And

I think that mad batarian prophet on Omega was talking about you.

Because, I'm a smoker and he looks contemplative in that portrait.   I like his character just like I liked Saren's character; but he's clearly a villain.

Modifié par implodinggoat, 06 mars 2010 - 06:22 .

[The Angry One]

intersect wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

intersect wrote...

worthiness has nothing to do with it, tactical advantage and positioning does. You are on a Cerberus ship completely surrounded by Cerberus personnel. You can only face one direction at a time, and joker/EDI have control of the ship

Once again, that's why you dock at the Citadel, pretend everything's business as usual then go to Anderson. have C-Sec lock the ship down and have Alliance marines board the ship.

That would work, but its not what i was disputing

Well my scenario could work with Jacob and Miranda dead, just hide the bodies for a bit

Besides this is Shepard, no way is that crew getting the best of her/him, and that's assuming they'd all resist. I very much doubt Joker would for instance.

[redguppie]

I would of still worked for Cerberus. While I may disagree with some of their methods I do agree with alot of their intentions. They want humanities survival at any cost. Considering that for the moment the collectors are really only targeting humanity that makes them a viable option to help out Shepard.



As for using the alliance instead:The fact that Cerberus has so many connections high up in the Alliance military and political structure leads me to believe that either



a.) the worst counter-intellegence agency in the galaxy

or

b.)the work with Cerberus and support them behind the scenes. Every government needs an organization that gives them plausible deniabilty.



Technically Cerberus never did anything to make me question what they are after. Plus it seems there would only be four organizations that could realistically fund you to carry something like this out



Alliance: An option, but they don't seem to have a clue about why this is happening and they don't have the jurisdiction to really throw their wieght around in the Termimus system. Remember that the colonies that are disappearing aren't alliance affiliated.



Council: Either controlled by the alliance or aliens they are still tied down by the fact that they have no jurisdiction thier either. While you can get reinstated that doesn't mean they are going to build you a ship, pay for a crew, or even try to revive you. Remember that while a great Spectre you were, you were not the only one.



Shadow Broker: Already working for the Collectors who can pay him alot more money than you can



Cerberus: not bound by law, well funded, and willing to bring you back to life because they think you are a symbol for humanity. Willing to give you a brand new ship, pay a crew, gather intel on not just the enemy but also on what you will need to fight deal with this problem.

[Soma Holiday]

implodinggoat wrote...

intersect wrote...

worthiness has nothing to do with it, tactical advantage and positioning does. You are on a Cerberus ship completely surrounded by Cerberus personnel. You can only face one direction at a time, and joker/EDI have control of the ship

Yes unnarmed personel.  None of which are wearing armor.  Plus you're Shepard.

exactly!   And if you're feeling lazy, then you talk to Thane and tell him to kill everyone on the ship except for you and the space hamster...you know it would work because he's a badass...

[Maginipowfire]

Yeah, one other thing that someone said in another thread that was a great way to convince the council. Let the Asari rape your mind. The worst that could happen is she wouldn't find anything that could prove the Reaper threat, but what have you got to lose at this point?

[SuperZombieChow]

The Angry One wrote...

If we were to go by your analogy then the Council would've hard Shepard arrested and their ship impounded the moment they set foot on the Citadel.
Instead they reinstate Shepard's Spectre status, thus giving tacit approval. Shep has no option to build on that and offer to reject Cerberus, which is silly.

Which would have been perfectly logical. I would have had him arrested and impounded, that's for sure. The entire spectre status thing was a real head scratcher for me, especially with the council denying the reapers when the only people in the room are the council and the guy who lead the assault that killed a reaper. I could only justify it by thinking that regardless of the obvious refusal to see reason, the council understood that they owed Shepard a great deal, and imprisoning him would bring political backlash and make him a martyr. So instead they give him back his title on the grounds that he stay out in the terminus systems, where the title carries little weight. You can bet that had Shepard started running around COUNCIL space screaming "Reapers" he would have had his status re-revoked and another spectre sent to hunt his rogue backside down.

As I said earlier, I agree with your assertion that the option should have been there. Why they didn't let you try to build trust (even if it ends in you getting outright refused) is completely beyond me. I's certainly a part of the plot that feels unnecessarily muddy and could have been cleared up by a few more lines of dialog where the council/alliance flat out refuses to help and Anderson/Udina advises you to take your ship and go fight the reapers with what you have (either saying he's sorry but he cant help you more [Anderson] or to be grateful you get that much [Udina]).  I just disagree that the council would necessarily help you, or that giving you back your title with strings attached was more then throwing you a bone to keep you out of their hair and avoiding political backlash.

[rabbitchannel]

implodinggoat wrote...

rab****annel wrote...

implodinggoat wrote...

rab****annel wrote...

Yes, new car = resurrection. Totally.

Cerberus isn't a terrorist organization. That is only its reputation. You think you'd be able to dock at the Citadel and have one-on-one chats with the Human Councillor and the Ambassador with the SR2 flagged as Cerberus?

This again. TIM is evil! I'd never work for him! What, my loyal crew? F*** them! What a hypocrite. 

Really not terrorists?   Turning several hundred people into Husks for an experiment doesn't make you a terrorist?  Alright fine it makes you Joseph Mengele and thats way better isn't it?

Accusing me of hypocrisy is not a good idea considering the fact that I've written several ethical philosophy papers on that very subject.  Consider, you are the one who accepts working with an orginization which slaughters human beings for its own ends for the supposed end of saving human beings.   I'm the one proposing that no one is above justice no matter how loyal to me they may be, even if they're my friends.   To say that no man is above justice is the antithesis of hypocrisy.

Now who would you say is the real hypocrite eh?

The question is not whether or not they are actually terrorists. Your point was that terrorists don't have property rights. I refuted that. They may be viewed as terrorists by a majority but not by the Citadel and the council.

You seem to be having trouble following me. I am (edit) NOT pulling the holier-than-thou card like many of you. I am merely stating that betraying Cerberus is not easily done and it will have repercussions on you and those following you. Your crew is not evil. They may be Cerberus but that doesn't mean they're evil. Take Miranda and Jacob, for example. You generalize all of them and catch those who have genuinely supported you and your cause in the crossfire. 

Accusing me of being a hypocrite would be foolish because I wasn't saying that TIM and Cerberus is good in the first place. Also I'm a pastor. No, Im not. See what I did there? Claims as to your competency and profession don't matter. Just make your arguments and if they're good then that's all that should matter.

First the council specifically says that they classify Cerberus as a terrorist organization so you're just wrong on that one.

I'm not being holier than though, I am using logic.   If you value the liberty of rational beings affiliating yourself with an organization which does not is hypocritical.   The only justification any of your crew gives you for siding with an organization which regularly commits acts of torture and mass murder is "Well, they get the job done." and that weak bull**** doesn't cut it.   Its true your crew isn't "evil"  per say; but they sided with an organization which is and it is only just that they be held accountable for that choice.   Besides I never accused them of being "evil"  (that was your terminology),  I accused them of injustice.   Justice demands they be held accountable for their poor choices.

Jihadists think they are fighting for the cause of divine goodness.   Like your crew they aren't evil, rather they have been deluded into believing a false concept of justice.   They should be pitied; but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be arrested or killed should they choose to resist.

Oh really? Please show me where the council says this. They say Cerberus is their enemy. But not a terrorist group. They are still a legitimate organization. Even if they WERE classified as terrorists, my point still stands. Taking the Normandy is not as simple as claiming it. The cost and potential of the vessel alone will make TIM want it back.

No, crewmates like Gabriella Daniels and Kenneth Donnelly demonstrate otherwise:

 "Unlike most of Cerberus operatives onboard the Normandy, both Kenneth and his friend Gabriella seem vastly ignorant of the “terrorist” operations that the organization engages in. If Commander Shepard asks about why Kenneth joined Cerberus, he replies that he joined to "kick the Collectors right in the daddy-bags". This is starkly different from a Cerberus crew member such as Miranda Lawson, who believes strongly in Cerberus’ goals and methods."

Many of your crew joined because they wanted to serve under Shepard. They believe in her, what she stands for, and that the Reapers must be stopped. Justice is not absolute. Sometimes you must go against justice to do what is right. 

That Jihadist argument is a different one. It is not what they think is right against what the galaxy thinks is right. 

And if I may reiterate, I am stating that betraying TIM is not a simple task. It can have serious repercussions on you and the crew. If you disagree with this, then carry on but what I am seeing is that you are trying to convince me that Cerberus is evil. Which is not the point I am trying to make.

[implodinggoat]

redguppie wrote...

Alliance: An option, but they don't seem to have a clue about why this is happening and they don't have the jurisdiction to really throw their wieght around in the Termimus system. Remember that the colonies that are disappearing aren't alliance affiliated.

Council: Either controlled by the alliance or aliens they are still tied down by the fact that they have no jurisdiction thier either. While you can get reinstated that doesn't mean they are going to build you a ship, pay for a crew, or even try to revive you. Remember that while a great Spectre you were, you were not the only one.

Shadow Broker: Already working for the Collectors who can pay him alot more money than you can

Cerberus: not bound by law, well funded, and willing to bring you back to life because they think you are a symbol for humanity. Willing to give you a brand new ship, pay a crew, gather intel on not just the enemy but also on what you will need to fight deal with this problem.

You could always do what Garrus did and start raiding Mercs and criminals for resources or petition endangered colonies for funding.   Once you have the Normandy and your life the major investments are out of the way.  The bigger challenge would be finding an intelligence network that could provide you the data you need in place of Ceberus.   Your list also covers all four of those although Liara might be a possibilty depending on how extensive her connections are.   You might also be able to use the Shadow Broker if you worked for an intermediary since the Broker's bussiness is selling intel for credits.  The Council and the Alliance are the best options; but they aren't willing to help so that eliminates them.

That said Shepard does have a lot of street cred and some friends in high places, particularly Anderson (or Udina).  Maybe you can't get the intel you need through official channels; but you could probably do it under the table.   Besides the only reason the Council and Anderson won't give you intel is because you're working for Cerberus, if you ended that partnership giving you intel would no longer be a security risk and they could use you to do their dirty work while maintaining plausible deniability just like they did in ME1.

[implodinggoat]

rab****annel wrote...

No, crewmates like Gabriella Daniels and Kenneth Donnelly demonstrate otherwise:

 "Unlike most of Cerberus operatives onboard the Normandy, both Kenneth and his friend Gabriella seem vastly ignorant of the “terrorist” operations that the organization engages in. If Commander Shepard asks about why Kenneth joined Cerberus, he replies that he joined to "kick the Collectors right in the daddy-bags". This is starkly different from a Cerberus crew member such as Miranda Lawson, who believes strongly in Cerberus’ goals and methods."

Indeed, since they haven't committed any crimes and haven't been affiliated with the organization for long, I doubt they would receive a harsh sentence.   But then that is best decided by a jury of their peers in a court of law, is it not?

Many of your crew joined because they wanted to serve under Shepard. They believe in her, what she stands for, and that the Reapers must be stopped. Justice is not absolute. Sometimes you must go against justice to do what is right.

Depends on the definition of justice you're using.   Utilitarianism asserts that commiting injustice is sometimes neccessary to avert a greater injustice.  A more idealist ethical philosophy such as Kantian Deontology maintains that Justice is absolute and that no act of injustice may ever be justified.    I would tend to agree with the Utilitarians and if you're only options were obey Cerberus or sit and watch as the galaxy burns then it seems clear that you should obey Cerberus.   I however am unconvinced that Cerberus is the only option at Shepard's disposal, particularly since the Council and the Alliance refuse him/her intelligence and resources solely because he/she is affiliated with Ceberus.

And if I may reiterate, I am stating that betraying TIM is not a simple task. It can have serious repercussions on you and the crew. If you disagree with this, then carry on but what I am seeing is that you are trying to convince me that Cerberus is evil. Which is not the point I am trying to make.

At this point I am trying to demonstrate that working with them is unjust, not that they are evil which I believe is already well established.  I would imagine that betraying them would have consequences; hence it would be neccessary to ensure that you had a reliable source of intelligence which could replace Cerberus before you abandonded them.   As for the consequences for your crew, I'll stand by my assertion that justice must supercede sentiment.

[redguppie]

implodinggoat wrote...

redguppie wrote...

Alliance: An option, but they don't seem to have a clue about why this is happening and they don't have the jurisdiction to really throw their wieght around in the Termimus system. Remember that the colonies that are disappearing aren't alliance affiliated.

Council: Either controlled by the alliance or aliens they are still tied down by the fact that they have no jurisdiction thier either. While you can get reinstated that doesn't mean they are going to build you a ship, pay for a crew, or even try to revive you. Remember that while a great Spectre you were, you were not the only one.

Shadow Broker: Already working for the Collectors who can pay him alot more money than you can

Cerberus: not bound by law, well funded, and willing to bring you back to life because they think you are a symbol for humanity. Willing to give you a brand new ship, pay a crew, gather intel on not just the enemy but also on what you will need to fight deal with this problem.

You could always do what Garrus did and start raiding Mercs and criminals for resources or petition endangered colonies for funding.   Once you have the Normandy and your life the major investments are out of the way.  The bigger challenge would be finding an intelligence network that could provide you the data you need in place of Ceberus.   Your list also covers all four of those although Liara might be a possibilty depending on how extensive her connections are.   You might also be able to use the Shadow Broker if you worked for an intermediary since the Broker's bussiness is selling intel for credits.  The Council and the Alliance are the best options; but they aren't willing to help so that eliminates them.

That said Shepard does have a lot of street cred and some friends in high places, particularly Anderson (or Udina).  Maybe you can't get the intel you need through official channels; but you could probably do it under the table.   Besides the only reason the Council and Anderson won't give you intel is because you're working for Cerberus, if you ended that partnership giving you intel would no longer be a security risk and they could use you to do their dirty work while maintaining plausible deniability just like they did in ME1.

You end up creating more work for yourself and adding time to an already time consuming task.  I agree with many of the points you make but you end up throwing away a useful ally who can provide you with all you the goundwork you need which allows you to focus on what is most important. 

Plus like I said I believe cerberus didn't really go rogue from the Alliance , but the Alliance used that bit of propaganda to give them plausable deniability while allowing them to deal with problems and search for sulutions outside the law.  Talking to Jacob you find out that they do have programs like that and givin how many ties Cerberus has in the Alliance I don't thik it's that far fetched.  Remeber the fact you were working for this hugely evil organization didn't really seem to bother Anderson as much as you would think it should.