214 réponses à ce sujet

[phatpat63]

OP is right

[rabbitchannel]

implodinggoat wrote...

rab****annel wrote...

No, crewmates like Gabriella Daniels and Kenneth Donnelly demonstrate otherwise:

 "Unlike most of Cerberus operatives onboard the Normandy, both Kenneth and his friend Gabriella seem vastly ignorant of the “terrorist” operations that the organization engages in. If Commander Shepard asks about why Kenneth joined Cerberus, he replies that he joined to "kick the Collectors right in the daddy-bags". This is starkly different from a Cerberus crew member such as Miranda Lawson, who believes strongly in Cerberus’ goals and methods."

Indeed, since they haven't committed any crimes and haven't been affiliated with the organization for long, I doubt they would receive a harsh sentence.   But then that is best decided by a jury of their peers in a court of law, is it not?

Many of your crew joined because they wanted to serve under Shepard. They believe in her, what she stands for, and that the Reapers must be stopped. Justice is not absolute. Sometimes you must go against justice to do what is right.

Depends on the definition of justice you're using.   Utilitarianism asserts that commiting injustice is sometimes neccessary to avert a greater injustice.  A more idealist ethical philosophy such as Kantian Deontology maintains that Justice is absolute and that no act of injustice may ever be justified.    I would tend to agree with the Utilitarians and if you're only options were obey Cerberus or sit and watch as the galaxy burns then it seems clear that you should obey Cerberus.   I however am unconvinced that Cerberus is the only option at Shepard's disposal, particularly since the Council and the Alliance refuse him/her intelligence and resources solely because he/she is affiliated with Ceberus.

And if I may reiterate, I am stating that betraying TIM is not a simple task. It can have serious repercussions on you and the crew. If you disagree with this, then carry on but what I am seeing is that you are trying to convince me that Cerberus is evil. Which is not the point I am trying to make.

At this point I am trying to demonstrate that working with them is unjust, not that they are evil which I believe is already well established.  I would imagine that betraying them would have consequences; hence it would be neccessary to ensure that you had a reliable source of intelligence which could replace Cerberus before you abandonded them.   As for the consequences for your crew, I'll stand by my assertion that justice must supercede sentiment.

I'm not debating whether or not they should be brought to court for working with Cerberus. What I am against is that even though their motives were good and they joined because they supported Shepard and her cause, they still suffer for being affiliated with Cerberus. 

I don't think justice is ever absolute. The Alliance can't help because of Shep's association with Cerberus. The council won't help because they believe there is no threat. To get the council's aid, you must first convince them that there is one. But this is all digression.

As for the last paragraph, ensuring you are have the support of other organizations before leaving Cerberus is exactly what I am saying. That, along with other reasons, is why people can't just leave Cerberus like deciding they want to go shopping later in the afternoon. As for the crew, I still stand by my arguments. They must not suffer for my choices. 

[HeyBlade789]

I hate cerberus, but, to save the galaxy for a time its the only option to work for them, is you returned to the citadel everyone be great, but nothing would be done, because frankly the council are wimps (cba with expletives) adn wouldnt do anything to combat the collector threat, now ive kicked cerberuses ass and have evidence of a reaper return, NOW is the time to leave and tell the council

[Dark Glasses]

Without Cerberus, Shepard is dead.
I don't like Cerberus methods, but they revived Shepard. Think about it, man!

Modifié par Dark Glasses, 06 mars 2010 - 07:21 .

[CmdrFenix83]

The Angry One wrote...

intersect wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

For the record I'm primarily ruthless and if I had the choice I'd never work for Cerberus.
My Shep will get things done at any cost, but won't work for some racist megalomaniac and his organization of incompetent morons when there are clear viable alternatives.

I'm not working for him, I'm going after the collectors/reapers regardless, what's the difference if he wants to give me a ship, crew, and info?  The Alliance and Citadel clearly state that they are not going to do ANYTHING regarding the reapers, and as far as the collectors go send a single agent (Ashley) with broken turrets to Horizon that I end up having to fix and save anyway.

You *are* working for him. You're using a ship he's riddled with bugs, you report to him and take directions, your XO is a Cerberus lackey and the ship's AI routinely sends all your findings to TIM without your permission.
As much as you'd like to think Shep is going along for convenience, the way the game plays it you're 100% under TIM's thumb until the end where you finally get a choice. And even then EDI does some stupid stuff like sending TIM the base schematics. What? I thought you were unshackled you dumb Reaper knockoff!

This is mostly my thoughts on it.  I probably would have accepted his ship, funding, crew, and logistics, if no one else was willing to support the mission, but you can be damned sure I would be undermining his authority at every turn. 

Calling the Alliance for backup on Horizon?  Why would I listen to TIM and not do it?  By the time I've investigated, it could be too late to save the colonists.  I would have called the Alliance immediately and warned of the impending assault.  Even if they don't believe me, at least I tried to help the colonists.  Plus there are a lot of these N7 missions that you're doing solely for Cerberus' benefit.  Why am I giving these supplies to Cerberus?  I make it very clear all game that I'm not their stooge, but I'm forced to be exactly that. 

[Suron]

Burdokva wrote...

You know, for once I want the Cerberus haters to think what would happen with their awesome plan to say the big "F"-word to Cerberus after they spend a great deal of money, time and efforts to revive Shepard - just space him from the nearest airlock and be done with him. And if said Shepard is to be such an ungrateful and stupid man/woman that can't see what is at stake beyond his petty hatred... yep, totally deserved.

actually it is deserved.  FACT.  It was already listed why above.  

Now that said....after being told what's goin on..no SANE Shepard wouldn't at least go look at what's going on and THEN decide what to do.

I'd of identified the threat and brought the evidence from Veetor's omi-tool to the council (who would have STILL said it was a human problem) and then to the Alliance when/if the council failed to do anything.

Rest assured just because the Alliance down-played the Reaper's doesn't mean they'd ignore what you brought them about the Collectors....Who knows how it would have played out after that.

The ONLY thing I'd of done for "Ressurecting" me is to let the Cerberus crew on the Normandy go...esp the ones that joined because of the abductions (like the engineer)....but they'd go with a warning that if I came across them again...gloves off.  Same with Illusive man..I'd tell him not to bother showing himself ever again and if he sends any Cerberus after me, regardless of the reason, they're arrested if not killed.

Chakwas is the ONLY one that came BECAUSE OF YOU...(companions that join you are irrelevant at this point.)

Even Joker is a traitor that joined Cerberus because the Alliance grounded him....unfair of course...total BS...But after all Cerberus did Joker joined them...so he's fair-game as well.

Going after the Reapers/Collectors warrants perhaps their help...as it's a threat to us all...worry about arresting them after the fact (and this only plays out BECAUSE the Reapers are such a threat.)

But please....the Cerberus sympathizers show less intelligence then the haters....

[Zulu_DFA]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

intersect wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

For the record I'm primarily ruthless and if I had the choice I'd never work for Cerberus.
My Shep will get things done at any cost, but won't work for some racist megalomaniac and his organization of incompetent morons when there are clear viable alternatives.

I'm not working for him, I'm going after the collectors/reapers regardless, what's the difference if he wants to give me a ship, crew, and info?  The Alliance and Citadel clearly state that they are not going to do ANYTHING regarding the reapers, and as far as the collectors go send a single agent (Ashley) with broken turrets to Horizon that I end up having to fix and save anyway.

You *are* working for him. You're using a ship he's riddled with bugs, you report to him and take directions, your XO is a Cerberus lackey and the ship's AI routinely sends all your findings to TIM without your permission.
As much as you'd like to think Shep is going along for convenience, the way the game plays it you're 100% under TIM's thumb until the end where you finally get a choice. And even then EDI does some stupid stuff like sending TIM the base schematics. What? I thought you were unshackled you dumb Reaper knockoff!

This is mostly my thoughts on it.  I probably would have accepted his ship, funding, crew, and logistics, if no one else was willing to support the mission, but you can be damned sure I would be undermining his authority at every turn. 

Calling the Alliance for backup on Horizon?  Why would I listen to TIM and not do it?  By the time I've investigated, it could be too late to save the colonists.  I would have called the Alliance immediately and warned of the impending assault.  Even if they don't believe me, at least I tried to help the colonists.  Plus there are a lot of these N7 missions that you're doing solely for Cerberus' benefit.  Why am I giving these supplies to Cerberus?  I make it very clear all game that I'm not their stooge, but I'm forced to be exactly that. 

C'mon, man, you are not forced. N7 missions are completely optional!

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 06 mars 2010 - 07:33 .

[Eretikas]

I worked for Cerberus because enemy of my enemy is my friend. Also Cerberus resurrected me so I decided that I it would be immoral to stab them in the back. In my opinion, even Evil deserves at least "thank you" for act of good.

Of course I probably won't stop somebody else to get revenge on Cerberus unless such act would make things much worse. As long as Cerberus is doing good I would stand aside or help, but I would like to bring Cerberus to justice if they commit new evil acts after my deal with them is done.

Modifié par Eretikas, 06 mars 2010 - 07:40 .

[CmdrFenix83]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

C'mon, man, you are not forced. N7 missions are completely optional!

Touche, Douchebag Shepard.  Touche.

[Zulu_DFA]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

C'mon, man, you are not forced. N7 missions are completely optional!

Touche, Douchebag Shepard.  Touche.

Amen, Morally Perfect Shepard. Amen.

[AngryFrozenWater]

@implodinggoat::

I agree. I would have chosen option A, because I wouldn't know that something like a new Normandy was about to happen.

[CmdrFenix83]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

C'mon, man, you are not forced. N7 missions are completely optional!

Touche, Douchebag Shepard.  Touche.

Amen, Morally Perfect Shepard. Amen.

You know what, I can get on board with that.   

[Nozybidaj]

Suron wrote...

Burdokva wrote...

You know, for once I want the Cerberus haters to think what would happen with their awesome plan to say the big "F"-word to Cerberus after they spend a great deal of money, time and efforts to revive Shepard - just space him from the nearest airlock and be done with him. And if said Shepard is to be such an ungrateful and stupid man/woman that can't see what is at stake beyond his petty hatred... yep, totally deserved.

actually it is deserved.  FACT.  It was already listed why above.  

Now that said....after being told what's goin on..no SANE Shepard wouldn't at least go look at what's going on and THEN decide what to do.

I'd of identified the threat and brought the evidence from Veetor's omi-tool to the council (who would have STILL said it was a human problem) and then to the Alliance when/if the council failed to do anything.

Rest assured just because the Alliance down-played the Reaper's doesn't mean they'd ignore what you brought them about the Collectors....Who knows how it would have played out after that.

The ONLY thing I'd of done for "Ressurecting" me is to let the Cerberus crew on the Normandy go...esp the ones that joined because of the abductions (like the engineer)....but they'd go with a warning that if I came across them again...gloves off.  Same with Illusive man..I'd tell him not to bother showing himself ever again and if he sends any Cerberus after me, regardless of the reason, they're arrested if not killed.

Chakwas is the ONLY one that came BECAUSE OF YOU...(companions that join you are irrelevant at this point.)

Even Joker is a traitor that joined Cerberus because the Alliance grounded him....unfair of course...total BS...But after all Cerberus did Joker joined them...so he's fair-game as well.

Going after the Reapers/Collectors warrants perhaps their help...as it's a threat to us all...worry about arresting them after the fact (and this only plays out BECAUSE the Reapers are such a threat.)

But please....the Cerberus sympathizers show less intelligence then the haters....

Very nicely put.  /clap

[LOLandStuff]

Why is it that some believe they owe Cerberus for being brought back to life, especially since they are aware of what they are doing and always have a hidden agenda.

[getterg]

My Shep was a sole survivor, he probably would of tried killing Jacob and Miranda and taken that shuttle to the Citadel or something

[Sharn01]

The way the conversation should have gone

TIM: Colonies are disappearing.

Shep: Some one muscling in on you there TIM, tried to blow up a few frieghter's and factories but the colonist's where not there for you to poison?

TIM: I have..

Shep: Not enough people to feed to Thresher Maw's anymore?

TIM: I was ..

Shep: planning to turn them into husk's maybe, you never know what way your going to kill colonist's next, do you have a wheel you spin to rendomly determine your next massacre?

TIM: We are talking about hundred's of thousand's of lives here Shepard..

Shep: Well, they still have a long way to go before they reach the million's of lives you are responsible for taking, oh yes, I almost forgot, I was there at Akuze you piece of ****, if anything I will call us even for that, but you still have to answer for everything else.

TIM: But you have to work for me, how can I send you into trap's and endanger your mission because of my own strange and idiotic belief's if I am not in control.

Shepard: Tell you what, send someone out with a razor blade and take that Cerberus logo off the new Normandy and hand it over, and I will not come after you until after the Reaper threat is dealt with.

[Sharn01]

This was posted a while back by someone, I got a kick out of it.

[Madecologist]

I would play along for now, use the assets they gave me and slowly win over my crew to my cause (because it is apparent most of the people on the ship were recruited just for this mission and not full Cerberus lapdogs except for Jacob and Miranda). As I journey I discover Jacob is not fully hearted to Cerberus and sway him to my cause and try to do the same with Miranda. Though I expect she is a lost cause, be pleasently suprised when she quits by the end. Tell TIM off at every chance, then finally tell TIM to f*** off at the end and fly away.

Wait a minute did I just describe the defualt Paragon playthrough of ME2?

Yup, don't get me wrong. I hate Cerberus, and my Shepard does so too. With a fiery passion of a burning sun. I do agree, not all Shepards would act this way, so in the case of the OP; you might have felt limited, it was not fair. That said, I was able to do what I would have wanted to do.

[Zulu_DFA]

Cerberus cannot be trusted. Renegades are bad. Human-centric humans are douchebags.

Cerberus cannot be trusted. Renegades are bad. Human-centric humans are douchebags.

Cerberus cannot be trusted. Renegades are bad. Human-centric humans are douchebags.

Cerberus cannot be trusted. Renegades are bad. Human-centric humans are douchebags.

Cerberus cannot be trusted. Renegades are bad. Human-centric humans are douchebags.

Cerberus cannot be trusted. Renegades are bad. Human-centric humans are douchebags.

Cerberus cannot be trusted. Renegades are bad. Human-centric humans are douchebags.

Cerberus cannot be trusted. Renegades are bad. Human-centric humans are douchebags.

Cerberus cannot be trusted. Renegades are bad. Human-centric humans are douchebags.

Cerberus cannot be trusted. Renegades are bad. Human-centric humans are douchebags.

Cerberus cannot be trusted. Renegades are bad. Human-centric humans are douchebags.

Cerberus cannot be trusted. Renegades are bad. Human-centric humans are douchebags.

Cerberus cannot be trusted. Renegades are bad. Human-centric humans are douchebags.

Cerberus cannot be trusted. Renegades are bad. Human-centric humans are douchebags.

Repeat this certified mantra 28346 times, and you will achieve moral perfection.

[Beerfish]

Dark Glasses wrote...

Without Cerberus, Shepard is dead.
I don't like Cerberus methods, but they revived Shepard. Think about it, man!

Not only that, no cerberus no normandy.
No cerberus, kaiden or ashley are liquified.
No cerberus no dossiers on the other people.

No group, no ship, no joker, no former squad mates.  There is Shepard having to try and talk the alliance into getting off their asses yet again.

No Cerberus and another ton of colonies get liquified.

Grunt gets destoryed
Jack gets sold to whoever.
Tali gets exiled.
Garrus dies at the hands of mercs.
Mordin dies due life support shut down.


This is like a twisted 'It's a Wonderful Life'.  If you told Cerberus to go F themsleves at many places along the way and did your own thing you probably fail and this is how I rationalized things.  I was using them they were not using me. 

[Terraneaux]

Honestly, the whole issue could be avoided if the Council tasked you with infiltrating Cerberus as part of working for them; it would have made the main plot work MUCH better, but the writing team didn't want to write a story where Shepard could choose; they wanted to write a story that made TIM out to be this awesome cool manipulator and Shepard out to be dumb muscle.

[Sesshomaru47]

I like the second option. It's Jokers fault you got spaced anyway.

[Flamewielder]

Playing a Paragon Shepard meant he strongly believed in due process, not vigilante killing. All the Cerberus personel I could capture alive in ME1 was turned in for investigation/trial. Had I been playing a Renegade Shepard I might have indeed shot them both in the back, but then being Renegade means also being opportunistic...



A ship and a crew requires financial back up that isn't shown in ME2 but is implied provided by Cerberus (crew salaries, docking fees, food supplies, weapons, etc...). I wanted the team and the ship, but didn't want to be dependent on Cerberus for our next meal ticket. THAT's why I swallowed my pride and accepted my return to Spectre status. With the Council providing financial/logistic support, I was free to flip TIM the bird and have Mordin and Tali scour the ship for surveillance devices...



And if TIM is as smart as he looks, he probably anticipated my eventual defection and planned accordingly. After all, we both want the Reaper threat ended and that requires Shepard being free to act as he thinks best. TIM only has to try and influence circumstances in Humanity's favor every chance he gets.

[Madecologist]

Flamewielder wrote...

...snip...

And if TIM is as smart as he looks, he probably anticipated my eventual defection and planned accordingly. After all, we both want the Reaper threat ended and that requires Shepard being free to act as he thinks best. TIM only has to try and influence circumstances in Humanity's favor every chance he gets.

Well he is pissed when you don't give him the base. He really wanted that base. That said, blowing it up and flying away may have pissed him off. May have not been what he was hoping for. But it could very well still be part of plan B. Or C.

[GenericPlayer2]

I had a plan the first time I played the game, but it did not work out. At Freedom's Progress I cloaked up and waited for the YMIR mech to kill Miranda and Jacob. My plan was to then deal with the mech on my own, and then find Veetor and ask Tali to drop me off somewhere I could lay low (Omega?) until I could contact the Alliance and find out what is going on.

Unfortunately my plan was thwarted when Jacob and Miranda mysteriously came back to life after the mech was destroyed.

I sincerely hope the BioWare staff know how frustrating it was for many of us to be working for Cerberus and plan to make it up in ME3. No, blowing up the base at the end was not enough.

Modifié par GenericPlayer2, 06 mars 2010 - 10:08 .