214 réponses à ce sujet

[ObserverStatus]

Well, if Shepard DIDN'T work with Cerberus, the council would continue sending him on meaningless assignments like the one that got SR1 destroyed. Meanwhile, the collectors would go to earth in order to collect more people to use as materials for their Terminator mock-up. Way to go idealist Shepard.

[ObserverStatus]

I may not like TIM, but I'd rather work for him than Udina.

[GenericPlayer2]

bobobo878 wrote...

Well, if Shepard DIDN'T work with Cerberus, the council would continue sending him on meaningless assignments like the one that got SR1 destroyed. Meanwhile, the collectors would go to earth in order to collect more people to use as materials for their Terminator mock-up. Way to go idealist Shepard.

I firmly believe no one was doing anything about it because Cerberus was pulling the wool over everyone's eyes (arriving on the scene first, spreading false information and rumor...etc). I am confident that if I arrived on my own with the evidence from Freedom's progress I might be able to get some support. If not I would have shown the data to Hackett or someone else until I got someone to listen to me. They sent Ash/Kaidan out to investigate didn't they?

I had Mordin's countermeasure, but with the data from Freedom's progress who is to say that I couldn't find another brilliant mind to make one for me?

Edit: My main objection is to the writing of the overall story. They say they wanted you with Cerberus because ME2 was supposed to be "Dark and Edgy", but then they whitewash Cerberus and give you extremely limited opportunities to question them. What they created in the end was something that was neither here nor there.

Modifié par GenericPlayer2, 06 mars 2010 - 10:21 .

[ObserverStatus]

I decided I was done with the Alliance when Udina threw Shepard under the bus in ME1.

[Zulu_DFA]

GenericPlayer2 wrote...

bobobo878 wrote...

Well, if Shepard DIDN'T work with Cerberus, the council would continue sending him on meaningless assignments like the one that got SR1 destroyed. Meanwhile, the collectors would go to earth in order to collect more people to use as materials for their Terminator mock-up. Way to go idealist Shepard.

I firmly believe no one was doing anything about it because Cerberus was pulling the wool over everyone's eyes (arriving on the scene first, spreading false information and rumor...etc). I am confident that if I arrived on my own with the evidence from Freedom's progress I might be able to get some support. If not I would have shown the data to Hackett or someone else until I got someone to listen to me. They sent Ash/Kaidan out to investigate didn't they?

I had Mordin's countermeasure, but with the data from Freedom's progress who is to say that I couldn't find another brilliant mind to make one for me?

Edit: My main objection is to the writing of the overall story. They say they wanted you with Cerberus because ME2 was supposed to be "Dark and Edgy", but then they whitewash Cerberus and give you extremely limited opportunities to question them. What they created in the end was something that was neither here nor there.

And what brilliant mind would give you the Reaper IFF?

[Terraneaux]

GenericPlayer2 wrote...

Edit: My main objection is to the writing of the overall story. They say they wanted you with Cerberus because ME2 was supposed to be "Dark and Edgy", but then they whitewash Cerberus and give you extremely limited opportunities to question them. What they created in the end was something that was neither here nor there.

This is pretty much where I stand.  It would have been better if the council was *unable* to help you rather than *unwilling.*  

[Maginipowfire]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

GenericPlayer2 wrote...

bobobo878 wrote...

Well, if Shepard DIDN'T work with Cerberus, the council would continue sending him on meaningless assignments like the one that got SR1 destroyed. Meanwhile, the collectors would go to earth in order to collect more people to use as materials for their Terminator mock-up. Way to go idealist Shepard.

I firmly believe no one was doing anything about it because Cerberus was pulling the wool over everyone's eyes (arriving on the scene first, spreading false information and rumor...etc). I am confident that if I arrived on my own with the evidence from Freedom's progress I might be able to get some support. If not I would have shown the data to Hackett or someone else until I got someone to listen to me. They sent Ash/Kaidan out to investigate didn't they?

I had Mordin's countermeasure, but with the data from Freedom's progress who is to say that I couldn't find another brilliant mind to make one for me?

Edit: My main objection is to the writing of the overall story. They say they wanted you with Cerberus because ME2 was supposed to be "Dark and Edgy", but then they whitewash Cerberus and give you extremely limited opportunities to question them. What they created in the end was something that was neither here nor there.

And what brilliant mind would give you the Reaper IFF?

Well, if TIM is so worried about the humanity, he would still keep an eye on you, and I bet that he would pull strings and make everything possible for you to get to the Collectors base, even if you are not working for him.

But as it was said before, it is all conjecture. If the game was made that way(being able to choose siding with the Alliance) then you could probably find the Reaper IFF another way.

[cronshaw8]

So the OP hates that Cerberus goes around murdering people. To deal with this you have Shepard murder a bunch of people in cold blood, including his friends? Very nice.

[Weskerr]

implodinggoat wrote...

Don't get me wrong, I love ME2;  but quite frankly there is no way in hell my Shepard would ever work for Ceberus.
Hell, at the end of Mass Effect 1 hunting down and killing every last Cerberus operative was at the top of my list of things I wanted to do in ME2.  I mean this is an orginization which....

1:  Proved they were incompotent by accidentally releasing Rachni.
2:  Turned the entire Chasca colony into Husks just to see what would happen.
3:  Used children as lab rats to try and create a superior biotic.
4:  Murdered Admiral Kahoku's entire unit by luring them into a Thresher Maw lair just to see what would happen.
5:  Murdered Admiral Kahoku to cover it up.
6:  Murdered an entire Alliance battalion on Akuze in another Thresher Maw experiment, which just so happened to be Shepard's unit if you picked the Sole Survivor origin story.

Thus, when I found out I was going to be working for that sort of filth in ME2, I was less than thrilled.  As I played through the campaign I kept waiting for the point where I was going to get the opportunity to turn on them; but it never came.  Instead I spent the whole damn game letting the Illusive Man yank my strings like a ****ing puppet and I couldn't help; but wonder what happened to Shepards balls between ME1 and ME2.

So here's the question.   If you were commander Shepard what would you have really done after Cerberus revived you?

Personally, I can think of two possibilities depending on how patient and level headed I was feeling.

A:  Wait until I got on the shuttle off the Lazarus facility, then shoot Jacob and Miranda in the back of the head and set a course for the Citadel.

B:   Wait until I got my hands on the Normandy SR2 and set course for the Citadel.  At which point I would bring C-Sec along to help me arrest and interrogate the hell out of every last Cerberus crewman on the Normandy while gunning down anyone stupid enough to resist.   And when I say I'd arrest or kill everyone, I mean everyone including Jacob, Miranda, Yeoman Kelly, Doctor Chakwas and Joker.   I do not **** around and I do not forgive and forget.

You're just as ruthless -if not more so- than Cerberus

[Terraneaux]

cronshaw8 wrote...

So the OP hates that Cerberus goes around murdering people. To deal with this you have Shepard murder a bunch of people in cold blood, including his friends? Very nice.

Actually, that's pretty standard video game morality.  In any case, murdering soldiers has additional levels of criminality to it.  

[Terraneaux]

Weskerr wrote...

You're just as ruthless -if not more so- than Cerberus

If you join a terrorist organization, and the cops catch you, and you refuse to surrender, you have to know what's going to happen.

[Sharn01]

Weskerr wrote...

implodinggoat wrote...

Don't get me wrong, I love ME2;  but quite frankly there is no way in hell my Shepard would ever work for Ceberus.
Hell, at the end of Mass Effect 1 hunting down and killing every last Cerberus operative was at the top of my list of things I wanted to do in ME2.  I mean this is an orginization which....

1:  Proved they were incompotent by accidentally releasing Rachni.
2:  Turned the entire Chasca colony into Husks just to see what would happen.
3:  Used children as lab rats to try and create a superior biotic.
4:  Murdered Admiral Kahoku's entire unit by luring them into a Thresher Maw lair just to see what would happen.
5:  Murdered Admiral Kahoku to cover it up.
6:  Murdered an entire Alliance battalion on Akuze in another Thresher Maw experiment, which just so happened to be Shepard's unit if you picked the Sole Survivor origin story.

Thus, when I found out I was going to be working for that sort of filth in ME2, I was less than thrilled.  As I played through the campaign I kept waiting for the point where I was going to get the opportunity to turn on them; but it never came.  Instead I spent the whole damn game letting the Illusive Man yank my strings like a ****ing puppet and I couldn't help; but wonder what happened to Shepards balls between ME1 and ME2.

So here's the question.   If you were commander Shepard what would you have really done after Cerberus revived you?

Personally, I can think of two possibilities depending on how patient and level headed I was feeling.

A:  Wait until I got on the shuttle off the Lazarus facility, then shoot Jacob and Miranda in the back of the head and set a course for the Citadel.

B:   Wait until I got my hands on the Normandy SR2 and set course for the Citadel.  At which point I would bring C-Sec along to help me arrest and interrogate the hell out of every last Cerberus crewman on the Normandy while gunning down anyone stupid enough to resist.   And when I say I'd arrest or kill everyone, I mean everyone including Jacob, Miranda, Yeoman Kelly, Doctor Chakwas and Joker.   I do not **** around and I do not forgive and forget.

You're just as ruthless -if not more so- than Cerberus

Really, I did not see him say he wanted to sacrafice the lives of million's in sadistic experiment's.  Sounds more like a hard ass then ruthless.

Modifié par Sharn01, 06 mars 2010 - 10:47 .

[cronshaw8]

Terraneaux wrote...

cronshaw8 wrote...

So the OP hates that Cerberus goes around murdering people. To deal with this you have Shepard murder a bunch of people in cold blood, including his friends? Very nice.

Actually, that's pretty standard video game morality.  In any case, murdering soldiers has additional levels of criminality to it.  

What level of criminality does murdering a cripple who can barely defend himself and was one of your best friends add?

[GuardianAngel470]

intersect wrote...

implodinggoat wrote...

intersect wrote...

I never got the feeling I was working for them, more like I was using them and their resources to further my own ends, they never had Shepard do anything but want Shepard already wanted to do (i.e. stop the collectors) any side missions or other choices you had the option of helping the alliance instead (the operative's data, blowing up the collector base, not giving them Legion) And in the end I take my ship and my crew and tell TIM to F-off so I can go deal with the real threat.

True.  After the council and the Alliance blow you off, you really don't have much of a choice; but to use Cerberus to get the resources and intel you need.   Hindsight being 20/20 working with Cerberus was the way to go.  I just doubt I would have had the patience to find that out before I started busting caps and as a consequence a lot of colonists would have died before the Council and/or the Alliance got off their asses and did something about it. 

I agree that it doesn't completely seem in character for Sole-Survivor Shepard to put up with them, but I never played Sole-survivor much anyway, Ruthless obviously does whatever it take to get the job done, so He'd work with Ceberus in a second, and my War Hero Shepard doesn't agree with Cerberus, but still uses their assets to save as many lives as he can, except maybe Conrad's pinky toe.

Rest in peace pinky toe...

[Sharn01]

cronshaw8 wrote...

Terraneaux wrote...

cronshaw8 wrote...

So the OP hates that Cerberus goes around murdering people. To deal with this you have Shepard murder a bunch of people in cold blood, including his friends? Very nice.

Actually, that's pretty standard video game morality.  In any case, murdering soldiers has additional levels of criminality to it.  

What level of criminality does murdering a cripple who can barely defend himself and was one of your best friends add?

He said he would arrest them, and gun them down if they fought back, if no one fights back no shot will ever be fired.

[Schneidend]

implodinggoat wrote...
1:  Proved they were incompotent by accidentally releasing Rachni.

The rachni released themselves, because they're intelligent.

2:  Turned the entire Chasca colony into Husks just to see what would happen.

They were experimenting on bodies that were already husks and the Dragon's Teeth. The Chasca colonists were indoctrinated and turned THEMSELVES into husks, as the scientists on the derelict reaper did.

3:  Used children as lab rats to try and create a superior biotic.

Rogue cell torturing children without authorization. Survivng children delivered to Alliance medical facilities.

4:  Murdered Admiral Kahoku's entire unit by luring them into a Thresher Maw lair just to see what would happen.

No argument against this. Still largely unexplained in the how or why of it. Could have been done to kill personnel who knew of Cerberus' existence and make it look like an accident.

5:  Murdered Admiral Kahoku to cover it up.

Kahoku knew too much and was going to sell Cerberus secrets to the Shadow Broker. I doubt his murder had anything to do with the thresher maw experiments.

6:  Murdered an entire Alliance battalion on Akuze in another Thresher Maw experiment, which just so happened to be Shepard's unit if you picked the Sole Survivor origin story.

This experiment was conducted while Cerberus was still a top-secret division of the Alliance. Blame those who ordered it, not those who carried it out.

A:  Wait until I got on the shuttle off the Lazarus facility, then shoot Jacob and Miranda in the back of the head and set a course for the Citadel.

Not an unreasonable plan, but it would have been quite pointless when it turned out the Council would not officially support you in any meaningful way, as usual.

B:   Wait until I got my hands on the Normandy SR2 and set course for the Citadel.  At which point I would bring C-Sec along to help me arrest and interrogate the hell out of every last Cerberus crewman on the Normandy while gunning down anyone stupid enough to resist.   And when I say I'd arrest or kill everyone, I mean everyone including Jacob, Miranda, Yeoman Kelly, Doctor Chakwas and Joker.   I do not **** around and I do not forgive and forget.

Really? Miranda is clearly unrepentant and has doubtlessly committed dozens of offenses, but if you'd arrest/kill Jacob, Yeoman Kelly, Doctor Chakwas, and Joker, then I'm afraid you've crossed the line from merely Lawful Stupid into Complete Monster Knight Templar. You're no better than the organization you claim is evil. Congratulations.

Modifié par Schneidend, 06 mars 2010 - 11:24 .

[Terraneaux]

 1) Still their fault for screwing up the situation.  

2) Maybe plausible, but they managed to get a bunch of civilians killed accidentally.  Kind of makes you wonder whether or not it's worth it for humanity to have Cerberus around.

3) Ah, yes, "rogue cells." We have dismissed this claim.  It's extremely unlikely that this 'rogue cells' business is anything other than a cover story to keep people like Jacob from jumping ship; remember, TIM keeps Cerberus as small as possible to afford maximum oversight.  

4) They murdered the soldiers as they were checking up on Banes' death, and when Cerberus caught on they murdered them.  Pretty reprehensible.  

5) Kahoku was killed in revenge for revealing the fact that they had gone rogue.  There's not really any way you can spin this or the last point to make Cerberus look like anything other than psychotically evil. 

6) TIM was still in charge of Cerberus then, it was his baby.  The organization was a bad idea then, it's still a bad idea now.  Based off of what Hackett tells you, the Alliance military leadership didn't give them the authority to murder and abduct Alliance soldiers, they did that on their own.

A) They could certainly have written it such that the council offered support.  It's fiction, you can do that.  

I dunno, they're still 'aiding and abetting' a terrorist organization.  That's pretty serious, though I doubt Joker, Chakwas, or Kelly would need to be killed instead of taken into custody.  If I was taking paychecks from Al-Qaeda, you wouldn't think twice about throwing me in jail, even if all I was doing was their IT work.  That's the kind of situation we're talking about here.

[Schneidend]

Terraneaux wrote...

 1) Still their fault for screwing up the situation.  

2) Maybe plausible, but they managed to get a bunch of civilians killed accidentally.  Kind of makes you wonder whether or not it's worth it for humanity to have Cerberus around.

3) Ah, yes, "rogue cells." We have dismissed this claim.  It's extremely unlikely that this 'rogue cells' business is anything other than a cover story to keep people like Jacob from jumping ship; remember, TIM keeps Cerberus as small as possible to afford maximum oversight.  

4) They murdered the soldiers as they were checking up on Banes' death, and when Cerberus caught on they murdered them.  Pretty reprehensible.  

5) Kahoku was killed in revenge for revealing the fact that they had gone rogue.  There's not really any way you can spin this or the last point to make Cerberus look like anything other than psychotically evil. 

6) TIM was still in charge of Cerberus then, it was his baby.  The organization was a bad idea then, it's still a bad idea now.  Based off of what Hackett tells you, the Alliance military leadership didn't give them the authority to murder and abduct Alliance soldiers, they did that on their own.

A) They could certainly have written it such that the council offered support.  It's fiction, you can do that.  

I dunno, they're still 'aiding and abetting' a terrorist organization.  That's pretty serious, though I doubt Joker, Chakwas, or Kelly would need to be killed instead of taken into custody.  If I was taking paychecks from Al-Qaeda, you wouldn't think twice about throwing me in jail, even if all I was doing was their IT work.  That's the kind of situation we're talking about here.

1. It would have happened to anybody experimenting with rachni. Binary Helix was overrun, and they didn't even have the smart variety of rachni.

2. Accidents happen. People are accidently killed during surgery, but rarely does a surgeon suffer serious consequences for it. Given that Cerberus is the only organization that can claim direct responsibility for stopping the Collector threat, it is simply not debatable whether it was worth having them around. Now that they've provided pretty much all the support they can, however, their value could be called into question post-ME2.

3. How can you dismiss the "rogue cells" claim, Councilor? The evidence is right there in the game. You find recordings of intracellular communiques damning the Zero Cell (as I've come to call them) and aren't given even the slighest indication that they might be fake.

4. Banes is clearly an agent of Cerberus whose death was faked. Anybody getting close to discovering this would be a security risk. Reprehensible, indeed, but no different than a CIA agent or undercover cop killing people who get close to ruining the secrecy necessary to complete an investigation or other operation.

5. Kahoku was killed because he knew too much. Plain and simple. I'm not condoning the action, but he was simply getting to close to sensitive information about Cerberus and so they killed him. The STG or an asari commando unit would do the same thing to protect their secrets.

6. The lore, like the Codex entry, suggests that TIM was not always the lone overlord he is now. There's no evidence that he was the one giving the orders at the time of the Akuze incident. Again, I'm just looking at this objectively, and don't condone or condemn these actions.

A. But they didn't. Cerberus was the only option. Besides, a Shepard that just starts killing people before finding out if there are other options to explore is just as psychotic and evil as you claim Cerberus to be.

B. Al-Qaida does not fund teams of soldiers to save the human race from certain annihilation. Moreover, you're arguing as though morality and legality are the same thing. Obviously, Joker would be arrested for working with Cerberus, because Cerberus has done illegal things. Illegal actions are not necessarily amoral actions.

[JMA22TB]

This is from paragon perspective I assume, so that's what I'm going on.

Okay, regardless of what you know about them their goals are similar to yours on the front of the Reapers. Shepard is not an idiot - he knows the Council almost has a committee assigned to disproving the Reaper 'theory' and will find any excuse not to believe they exist.

Cerberus brought him back from the dead, which Shepard thanks Miranda for, but never once says he/she owes Cerberus for doing so. In the end, he doesn't fall in line with TIM and throughout the entire story, he is distrusting of their intentions.

BUT...

You don't throw away a potential resource, especially one that invests billions to make sure you succeed for a noble purpose that coincides with your original purpose. You do it your way in the end, so if anything you're the hot girlfriend TIM spent all his money on and you end up walking out with your life, a loyal and deadly team, and the most powerful ship in the known galaxy. It's not like you throw in the towel and become his Mr. Bigglesworth.

[implodinggoat]

Dark Glasses wrote...

Without Cerberus, Shepard is dead.
I don't like Cerberus methods, but they revived Shepard. Think about it, man!

Right, so you give the Illusive Man a courtesy call along the lines of "Thanks a million, chump.  Next time we hang out, I'm sure we'll have a good laugh over all this while I'm cutting off one of your digits for every man I lost on Akuze."

You don't turn into his ****ing errand boy.  But; thats exactly what Shepard does.  Once again I wonder what happened to Shepard's balls between ME1 and ME2.  Cause it certainly seems like Cerberus rebuilt me as a docile sheep not the antiauthoritarian badass I was in ME1.

[implodinggoat]

Weskerr wrote...

implodinggoat wrote...

So here's the question.   If you were commander Shepard what would you have really done after Cerberus revived you?[/b]

Personally, I can think of two possibilities depending on how patient and level headed I was feeling.

A:  Wait until I got on the shuttle off the Lazarus facility, then shoot Jacob and Miranda in the back of the head and set a course for the Citadel.

B:   Wait until I got my hands on the Normandy SR2 and set course for the Citadel.  At which point I would bring C-Sec along to help me arrest and interrogate the hell out of every last Cerberus crewman on the Normandy while gunning down anyone stupid enough to resist.   And when I say I'd arrest or kill everyone, I mean everyone including Jacob, Miranda, Yeoman Kelly, Doctor Chakwas and Joker.   I do not **** around and I do not forgive and forget.

You're just as ruthless -if not more so- than Cerberus

Live by the sword die by the sword. 

If you tell me you're an agent for an organization which converted an entire human colony into husks for a science experiment and sat back and laughed while my entire unit was slaughtered by Thresher Maws for your viewing pleasure, then I will treat you accordingly.   Whether you say it politely or not doesn't really matter to me.

[implodinggoat]

Schneidend wrote...

Really? Miranda is clearly unrepentant and has doubtlessly committed dozens of offenses, but if you'd arrest/kill Jacob, Yeoman Kelly, Doctor Chakwas, and Joker, then I'm afraid you've crossed the line from merely Lawful Stupid into Complete Monster Knight Templar. You're no better than the organization you claim is evil. Congratulations.

Its difficult to say exactly what Miranda has had her hand in since she joined Cerberus, all we know for certain is that she spent the last two years heading the Lazarus project.

As for Jacob and the others they broke the law, hence they should face the law.  It is not Shepards place to make snap judgements about who is or is not incconcent, that is for a jury to decide.  Besides I'd imagine the Alliance could get some very juicy intel on Cerberus out of the plea bargaining processs.

If they decide that they want to open fire on Shepard and the law enforcement officers from C-Sec rather than face the law then they have choosen death for themselves and hence I would feel no remorse as I put them down with my Vindicator.

Modifié par implodinggoat, 07 mars 2010 - 01:54 .

[Cascadus]

I hate Cerberus, especially my Shepard (Sole Survivor). But I do not take a 'do not forgive, do not forget' policy. Most of those people on the ship have NO IDEA what Cerberus was up to, they were all handpicked for the mission and TIM made sure that none of them were 'extremist' and had little clue about Cerberus's workings to garner trust and a more benign perception of Cerberus. I could never betray my crew and go 'WELL YOU'RE ASSOCIATED WITH CERBERUS GG', because they've done so much more for me.
Again, every single member of the Lazarus Cell (excluding Jacob and Miranda) and the crew of the Normandy were hand-picked by Cerberus and have no clue about Cerberus's dark side and all of them are normal, sympathetic people.
Maybe that's the kind of person that me, and my Shepard is. Akuze was unforgivable but what you're doing is essentially 'every Nazi ever was bad so they will all die'.

Modifié par Cascadus, 07 mars 2010 - 02:03 .

[Bigdoser]

As someone said your crew know nothing about cerb apart from jacob and miranda TIM is trying to get you on his side as people say make your enemy your friend.

[implodinggoat]

Bigdoser wrote...

As someone said your crew know nothing about cerb apart from jacob and miranda TIM is trying to get you on his side as people say make your enemy your friend.

Indeed make them your friend, until the opportunity to slit their throat presents itself.    That's what a real Renegade would do; but Renegade Shepard in ME2 isn't a Renegade, he's a good little N.A.Z.I. who salutes and follows the orders of his glorious masters at Cerberus.

Playing Renegade in ME2 is completely unpalatable because your not acting like a Renegade, your acting like a damned puppet crusading for the Gistapo.

Hell the most Renegade thing you can do in ME2 is to blow up the base and tell the Illusive man to go **** himself.

Modifié par implodinggoat, 07 mars 2010 - 02:20 .