272 réponses à ce sujet

[Vaenier]

superimposed wrote...

No, a gorilla has no environmental pressures which would even push it in the direction of mathematics let alone Space Travel. You're assuming Humans are advanced but ignoring the fact that a lot of species on this planet simply had no need to develop a lot of the things we have.

Evolution is a wierd thing. I still have trouble completely grasping it, but I get the general idea. It is the intent of life to spread and multiply. It does this by adapting to the needs forced by the enviroment. We make tools because we couldnt survive without them. we spread to space because we cant sustain ourselves on a single planet.
I see us eventualy terraforming every planet in the galaxy and spreading beyond, creating as many people as possible.

Reapers have no need to spread endlessly. They grown beyond the need to multiply.

[/opinion]

[Computron2000]

The Angry One wrote...
Don't be dishonest. I said human equivalent tools. You assumed I meant rudimentary tools.

Well the human equivalent to a hook is a hook. Since you refused to accept tools by functionality but by name, then it was delivered.

The Angry One wrote...
No, if a non-sapient species doesn't even begin to understand the concepts of our society and technology then.. well, they aren't sapient are they?

Wahh? Now it about sapience and its definition?!?

The Angry One wrote...
Except the Protheans did, and it's implied the species in the game don't do it because there's no real need to.

From http://masseffect.wi...odex/Technology

Mass relays are feats of Prothean engineering advanced far beyond the technology of any living species. They are enormous structures scattered throughout the stars, and can create corridors of virtually mass-free space allowing instantaneous transit between location separated by years or even centuries of travel using conventional FTL drives.

[superimposed]

The Angry One wrote...

superimposed wrote...

No, a gorilla has no environmental pressures which would even push it in the direction of mathematics let alone Space Travel. You're assuming Humans are advanced but ignoring the fact that a lot of species on this planet simply had no need to develop a lot of the things we have.

Technology is driven by necessity, however with that necessity must also be understanding. If you don't develop an understanding of what you need you'll never build on it.
A gorilla may use tools but will not understand how those tools can be built upon to make better tools, to make things easier, to make better tools, and so on.

Again, a Gorillas have no need to advance tools. There's no environmental pressures for them to find a more efficient way of cracking open nuts or seeds.

Eagles crack open shells of turtles by dropping them from immense heights with laser precision on to rocks. They don't need advanced tools to get their food, are they any less advanced?

[knightnblu]

“So from your point of view, they were evil but from their point of view they were not. So who defines good and evil?”



Good and evil have no meaning other than what the individual observer assigns to them. This is because there is no such thing as a moral truth and if moral truths do not exist then neither does good and evil. Therefore, it is purely a matter of personal perspective. Since each person is the hero of their own story, the Reapers consider themselves good because they seek to create new reapers out of the species in the galaxy thereby granting them perpetual existence and they consider the resistance of sapient species to their plans as evil. Not surprisingly, the potential victims of their intentions view the Reapers as evil. It is all a matter of perspective.

[The Angry One]

Computron2000 wrote...

Well the human equivalent to a hook is a hook. Since you refused to accept tools by functionality but by name, then it was delivered.

A hook is a rudimentary tool.
How about an advanced one? Any dolphins with computers? Any gorillas with forklifts? Okay let's be real generous. Any crows with bows and arrows? Any pandas with soil tillers? Any dogs with wooden cranes?

Wahh? Now it about sapience and its definition?!?

It was always about sapience <_<

From http://masseffect.wi...odex/Technology

Mass relays are feats of Prothean engineering advanced far beyond the technology of any living species. They are enormous structures scattered throughout the stars, and can create corridors of virtually mass-free space allowing instantaneous transit between location separated by years or even centuries of travel using conventional FTL drives.

Yes, using out of date codex entries really helps your case. Because there's no dialog from an Asari Matriarch in ME2 about her suggesting manufacture of mass relays only to be sneered at by her lazy peers or anything.

[Karstedt]

InvaderErl wrote...

I SAID SCARIER DAMN IT.

If my TV levitated me and knocked me out... scarry would be least of my concerns. Although, I suppose the Protheans could have a sense of humor like my own and just though, "Hey, wouldn't it be cool if when someone activated our beacon they got levitated and knocked out!. That would be awesome!".

It just seem to me that such measures are indicitave of something more than simple A/V input.

[superimposed]

Vaenier wrote...

superimposed wrote...

No, a gorilla has no environmental pressures which would even push it in the direction of mathematics let alone Space Travel. You're assuming Humans are advanced but ignoring the fact that a lot of species on this planet simply had no need to develop a lot of the things we have.

Evolution is a wierd thing. I still have trouble completely grasping it, but I get the general idea. It is the intent of life to spread and multiply. It does this by adapting to the needs forced by the enviroment. We make tools because we couldnt survive without them. we spread to space because we cant sustain ourselves on a single planet.
I see us eventualy terraforming every planet in the galaxy and spreading beyond, creating as many people as possible.

Reapers have no need to spread endlessly. They grown beyond the need to multiply.

[/opinion]

Evolution is actually the random mutation of genes.

Natural
selection is the most prominant mechanism. Genes which increase
reproduction and/or survival of offspring are the "good" genes, while
anything else is either neutral (pigmentation change - coincindientally
these things are usually tied in with the "good" changes) or harmful
(deformities and such).

It doesn't adapt so much as random mutations in genetics make an individual organism more successful in reproduction than those around it. Thisd is where Natural Selection kicks in.
It's offspring will be more successful than the others, and eventually over time most, if not all, will have that characteristic which increases successful reproduction.
If it doesn't, the individual dies out.
That's essentially what it all boils down to, reproduction.

[The Angry One]

superimposed wrote...

Again, a Gorillas have no need to advance tools. There's no environmental pressures for them to find a more efficient way of cracking open nuts or seeds.

There's no need because there is no sufficient intelligence to require that need. They are in their niche, and they don't understand anything beyond that niche.
Human intelligence allows for abstract thinking beyond our current niche, to take advantage of new concepts and new situations to advance.

Eagles crack open shells of turtles by dropping them from immense heights with laser precision on to rocks. They don't need advanced tools to get their food, are they any less advanced?

Of course they're less advanced. They have their niche and they stick to it!

[InvaderErl]

Karstedt wrote...

InvaderErl wrote...

I SAID SCARIER DAMN IT.

If my TV levitated me and knocked me out... scarry would be least of my concerns. Although, I suppose the Protheans could have a sense of humor like my own and just though, "Hey, wouldn't it be cool if when someone activated our beacon they got levitated and knocked out!. That would be awesome!".

It just seem to me that such measures are indicitave of something more than simple A/V input.

The Protheans understood the need to be dramatic. You don't just send a message saying the Reapers are coming. You lift the ****er in the air and send him a bunch of nonsensical images. THAT'S HOW YOU GET **** DONE.

[superimposed]

superimposed wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

superimposed wrote...

No, a gorilla has no environmental pressures which would even push it in the direction of mathematics let alone Space Travel. You're assuming Humans are advanced but ignoring the fact that a lot of species on this planet simply had no need to develop a lot of the things we have.

Evolution is a wierd thing. I still have trouble completely grasping it, but I get the general idea. It is the intent of life to spread and multiply. It does this by adapting to the needs forced by the enviroment. We make tools because we couldnt survive without them. we spread to space because we cant sustain ourselves on a single planet.
I see us eventualy terraforming every planet in the galaxy and spreading beyond, creating as many people as possible.

Reapers have no need to spread endlessly. They grown beyond the need to multiply.

[/opinion]

Evolution is actually the random mutation of genes.

Natural
selection is the most prominant mechanism. Genes which increase
reproduction and/or survival of offspring are the "good" genes, while
anything else is either neutral (pigmentation change - coincindientally
these things are usually tied in with the "good" changes) or harmful
(deformities and such).

It doesn't adapt so much as random mutations in genetics make an individual organism more successful in reproduction than those around it. Thisd is where Natural Selection kicks in.
It's offspring will be more successful than the others, and eventually over time most, if not all, will have that characteristic which increases successful reproduction.
If it doesn't, the individual dies out.
That's essentially what it all boils down to, reproduction.

Actually, that's a bit of an abbreviated version. Severely abbreviated, and over-simplified. But anyway.

[Miqti]

The Reapers created the Mass Relays, not the Protheans. Before we found out about the Reapers, it was assumed that the Protheans built the Citadel and Mass Relays.

[Vaenier]

superimposed wrote...

That's essentially what it all boils down to, reproduction.

Thank you. So I was somewhat right about coming down to making more people.

[superimposed]

The Angry One wrote...

superimposed wrote...

Again, a Gorillas have no need to advance tools. There's no environmental pressures for them to find a more efficient way of cracking open nuts or seeds.

There's no need because there is no sufficient intelligence to require that need. They are in their niche, and they don't understand anything beyond that niche.
Human intelligence allows for abstract thinking beyond our current niche, to take advantage of new concepts and new situations to advance.

Eagles crack open shells of turtles by dropping them from immense heights with laser precision on to rocks. They don't need advanced tools to get their food, are they any less advanced?

Of course they're less advanced. They have their niche and they stick to it!

Wrong again. They are advanced enough to live and thrive in their environments. We, however, keep having to 'advance' - constantly battling the environment and ourselves, creatures have conquered - with their natural bodies - what took us millenia to work towards. Flying, deep sea exploration, and we still aren't even close to seeing what is an everyday life for them. Things like Sonar and Radar pre-existed human invention. Anything humanity has invented can already be found in the natural environment, yes even explosives.

[Karstedt]

The Angry One wrote...

There's no need because there is no sufficient intelligence to require that need. They are in their niche, and they don't understand anything beyond that niche.
Human intelligence allows for abstract thinking beyond our current niche, to take advantage of new concepts and new situations to advance.

They don't need to paint either, but they apparently do. That puts them outside their niche.

InvaderErl wrote...

The Protheans understood the need to be dramatic. You don't just send a
message saying the Reapers are coming. You lift the ****er in the air
and send him a bunch of nonsensical images. THAT'S HOW YOU GET ****
DONE.

Touche'. You've won this round, but there's still a war to be fought.

[Karstedt]

Vaenier wrote...

superimposed wrote...

That's essentially what it all boils down to, reproduction.

Thank you. So I was somewhat right about coming down to making more people.

Or gorillas?

[Computron2000]

The Angry One wrote...
A hook is a rudimentary tool.
How about an advanced one? Any dolphins with computers? Any gorillas with forklifts? Okay let's be real generous. Any crows with bows and arrows? Any pandas with soil tillers? Any dogs with wooden cranes?

Ok so first it was no tools so we are higher life forms then followed by spears aren't like modern weapons so they don't count. A modern hook is just rudimentary so they don't count.

Then now we have you asking for name equivalents but functional equivalents are not allowed.

Move goal posts much?

The Angry One wrote...
It was always about sapience <_<

You do understand that the initial posts exchange was about "higher lifeforms" followed by many moving definitions by you? You do also know that sapience and "higher lifeforms" are different?

Wiki - "Sapience is often defined as wisdom, or the ability of an organism or entity to act with appropriate judgment."

Yes yes, you will say that anyone can change wiki, so here's the dictionary
Dictionary - sapience - ability to apply knowledge or experience or understanding or common sense and insight

Which my first post on animal tool usage already showed....

The Angry One wrote...
Yes, using out of date codex entries really helps your case. Because there's no dialog from an Asari Matriarch in ME2 about her suggesting manufacture of mass relays only to be sneered at by her lazy peers or anything.

Please go and run through that conversation again. At no time did the bartender say they had the technology, only that they should make their own mass relays (aka research from scratch). You are not really joining the dots.

[superimposed]

Karstedt wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

superimposed wrote...

That's essentially what it all boils down to, reproduction.

Thank you. So I was somewhat right about coming down to making more people.

Or gorillas?

Yes. Or gorillas.

[Vaenier]

The Angry One wrote...

superimposed wrote...

Again, a Gorillas have no need to advance tools. There's no environmental pressures for them to find a more efficient way of cracking open nuts or seeds.

There's no need because there is no sufficient intelligence to require that need. They are in their niche, and they don't understand anything beyond that niche.
Human intelligence allows for abstract thinking beyond our current niche, to take advantage of new concepts and new situations to advance.

Eagles crack open shells of turtles by dropping them from immense heights with laser precision on to rocks. They don't need advanced tools to get their food, are they any less advanced?

Of course they're less advanced. They have their niche and they stick to it!

Makes you wonder why man developed the need for tools.

Could sapience be a flaw? Destroys the natural selection that creates balance with the enviroment.

[InvaderErl]

Methinks Computron is taking the ****** out AngryOne.

[Cosmicinator]

I've just made a thread as to what I believe is the motivation of the Reapers.

Shameless self-endorsement.

Modifié par Cosmicinator, 06 mars 2010 - 07:41 .

[superimposed]

No. Human development of technology is a result of natural processes.



Humanity's only flaw is considering itself superior or noteworthy.

[Cosmicinator]

superimposed wrote...

Humanity's only flaw is considering itself superior or noteworthy.

[The Angry One]

My final post on the matter because some people are just being obtuse and jerking around, but as for this.

superimposed wrote...

Wrong again. They are advanced enough to live and thrive in their environments. We, however, keep having to 'advance' - constantly battling the environment and ourselves, creatures have conquered - with their natural bodies - what took us millenia to work towards. Flying, deep sea exploration, and we still aren't even close to seeing what is an everyday life for them. Things like Sonar and Radar pre-existed human invention. Anything humanity has invented can already be found in the natural environment, yes even explosives.

You don't get it do you? Of course technology replicates what nature does. The point is it replicates what humans can't do naturally! Animals have no need to but the fact remains they don't understand it.

[superimposed]

[Vaenier]

Karstedt wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

There's no need because there is no sufficient intelligence to require that need. They are in their niche, and they don't understand anything beyond that niche.
Human intelligence allows for abstract thinking beyond our current niche, to take advantage of new concepts and new situations to advance.

They don't need to paint either, but they apparently do. That puts them outside their niche.

If humans and their creations suddenly disapeared, They would probably evolve in a few hundred thousand years and have this exact same conversation.