312 réponses à ce sujet

[Lemonwizard]

I have seen a great deal of discussion about who can or can't be party members in ME3, and I notice a great deal of focus on the idea of "It's possible for them to die in the suicide mission, so they can't be squadmates in ME3 because it wouldn't work for people who didn't save them!".


But I'd like to ask this question: Why not? Why not let people who suffered massive losses in the suicide mission just have a smaller squad to choose from in ME3? Obviously, it needs to be within reason and there would have to be a few party members added that you either get regardless or function as replacements with similar powers to dead old ones.


However, I see no reason why our storyline decisions cannot affect gameplay the next time around. Because let's be real here, it's damn hard to kill everybody on the suicide mission without trying on purpose. Nearly half of this game's content is loyalty missions, the characters in the game straight out TELL you that things will go badly if you don't buy the ship upgrades, and most of the suicide mission choices are pretty obvious "Hey, we need a tech specialist to do this job! Tali is at the very top of the list of choices, that doesn't imply anything at all about somebody who will succeed at this!".


Most people, unless they were very hasty or very stupid, will probably only lose 1 or 2 squadmates on the suicide mission their first playthrough. And I see no issue with making the game have consequences for being hasty or stupid. Rushing in unprepared shouldn't garner the same result, it should hurt you in the long run. That's how things work in real life.


Because let's be honest, most of the party members are not relevant to the main plot anyway. Think of the first game. Garrus and Wrex only had one function in the main plot, and that was to help you find Tali, and they were interchangeable for that. Tali only needed to present her recording on Saren and her role in the main plot was done. After that, all of them had no function in the main plot and just existed to be party members, performing actions completely interchangeable with anybody else you might choose to bring along. Really the only party member who was essential to the main plot of ME1 was Liara, because she was the only one who could make sense of the beacon and point you to Ilos. Everybody else was there just to be a character who fights with you along the way.

And you know what? The first game didn't suffer for that at all. Garrus, Wrex, and Tali were all great characters who you liked fighting alongside with. It didn't matter that they didn't do anything special in the main plot, just having them by your side for 30 hours and seeing what they thought of everything you came across made the main plot that much better. Similarly, in mass effect 2, all party members are completely interchangeable and have no difference on the outcome of the game's main plot - but you grow attached to them over the course of your adventure and learning their histories and personalities.



So I say, let ME2 squad members return in ME3, and people who let them die just have a smaller squad. ME2 spent way too much time on character development for it all to get wasted on ten cameos. ME3 needs to be about the reapers, not about getting a whole new ragtag crew of adventurers. Let the default if you don't load a save have all recruitable characters alive, and people who rushed it in ME2 have consequences because of that.

[Lemonwizard]

Nobody has any thoughts regarding this?

[kraidy1117]

Thats what I keep saying. People who lost squadmates should have a disadvantage. People who made sure there whole squad lived should be rewarded and not by crappy cameos.

[Lady Discordia]

I agree completely. After all, it's the last game of Shepard's story, so Bioware should just go all out and really let the game diversify based on your decisions/loss of squad mates.



If it means taking an extra year or even 2 years, I wouldn't care. Just make the game as intricate as possible and i'll love them forever.

[Vaenier]

Because the game design board would become a treasure map on acid... I do not wish to map out that many divergent realities.

[Lemonwizard]

The point I'm trying to make is you wouldn't need to be mapping out many divergent realities at all. Do Horizon, do the collector ship, do the derelict reaper. Change your party members around as much as you like - the missions are still pretty much exactly the same, just the party member interjections have a different personality to them.





It'd be no different than people who chose to leave grunt in the tank in ME2.

[Varyen]

They will make some adjustments to ME3 based on this, this game did some of that with if you choose to kill wrex or not in ME1 as well as who you left to die on Virmre(or however it's spelt). I'm sure they'll do simlier things in ME3 both on the transfer as well as a predetermined story if you decided to start a new Sheperd straight off the ME2 start screen. The question is, is how detailed you wish it to be.

[Jalem001]

ME3 should be a reward for the fans. All our decisions and choices should come back to bite us in the ass, including who lived and who died.

[MassAffected]

kraidy1117 wrote...

Thats what I keep saying. People who lost squadmates should have a disadvantage. People who made sure there whole squad lived should be rewarded and not by crappy cameos.

Agreed. Also I don't think that A LOT of pople will be upset...its just that the minority usually cries the loudest and makes it seem like they are in the majority...when in reality the majority is enjoying the damn game.

[Vaenier]

Varyen wrote...

They will make some adjustments to ME3 based on this, this game did some of that with if you choose to kill wrex or not in ME1 as well as who you left to die on Virmre(or however it's spelt). I'm sure they'll do simlier things in ME3 both on the transfer as well as a predetermined story if you decided to start a new Sheperd straight off the ME2 start screen. The question is, is how detailed you wish it to be.

These arent real paths. The Virmire cameo is the same thing. the realities are no different afterwards than before. Wrex is a true divergent path, and will be interesting to see what happens with him in ME3.

Your crew construction does not require divergent paths. They are not galaxy changing events like wrex and collector base. So yes, you should have your decisions affect your crew. The extra work would actualy be a negative value because you save time designing a bunch of new ones.

[Paradox 01]

I have a big issue with people who insist that if you didn't make it through the first playthrough flawlessly, you failed to play "right", or were "hasty or very stupid".



I took great care to make choices appropriate for both my play style and what the overall story dictated. I had every NPC loyal to me, yet I still lost Tali and Legion in the final stage.



That said, if ME3 is anything like ME2, you should be able to choose from more than one finished game to continue from, so if you made decisions you regretted on your first playthrough, you can always go with the end result of your second (or third, or fourth, etc.).

[Lemonwizard]

I'm saying people who lost 7-8 members of the squad were hasty or stupid. 1 or 2 is what I'd normally expect. I got all upgrades and all loyalties my first playthrough, I only lost grunt because I picked him to lead the second fire team since they mentioned it was a "distraction" team. I figured "what could be more distracting than a huge krogan?", but I didn't realize it was the same leadership criteria as the first fire team.





Most people who weren't explicitly trying for one outcome or another probably only lost a few people with the majority of their squad surviving.

[ObserverStatus]

If Bioware created consequences for every possible action in the games, in would cost a lot of money.

[Jalem001]

bobobo878 wrote...

If Bioware created consequences for every possible action in the games, in would cost a lot of money.

Did we say every action?  Not every action in game warrants a consquence, but some certainly do.  Like the side mission where you decide what to do with the Cerberus data. 

[A Blind Bandit]

I agree 100% with the OP. What was the point of all that character development if its just going to be wasted on recruiting new people in ME3.

[Druss99]

Ive been saying this very same thing for months, there was a huge thread on it.



If people got squad members killed through their choice or stupidity its their own fault, they should be penalised for it in ME3, likewise anyone with a playthrough with everyone alive should be rewarded for it.



Saying that though, it would be a missed opportunity by bioware if they did anything but this. People realising they maybe need another playthrough to get the character they want in ME3, go back to ME2 or even ME1 again. Its an opportunity to sell more games and DLC.



Even on the default Shep without an imported save if they maybe left one or two characters out and said they are only in the game with if you have a save where they survived, its like free advertising for ME2 for anyone coming in to the series at ME3. Would make releasing a ME1,2 and 3 bundle a more viable idea too.

[Paradox 01]

Druss99 wrote...

Even on the default Shep without an imported save...

Hmm, now there's a thought.  What about people who play ME3 without ever having played either of the first two?  Should they be penalized for not having done so?  I can see rewarding those of us who have, but the opposite is a pretty sh!tty thought.

[Pho Kadat]

Maybe this isn't directly on topic, but why does the ME3 squad need to get smaller because your squaddies died in ME2? What if those that die just get replaced with generic equivalents? That way, the penalty for losing a squaddie isn't so harsh as to create a void, but clearly that replacement won't be nearly as useful or in depth.

[Lemonwizard]

Pho Kadat wrote...

Maybe this isn't directly on topic, but why does the ME3 squad need to get smaller because your squaddies died in ME2? What if those that die just get replaced with generic equivalents? That way, the penalty for losing a squaddie isn't so harsh as to create a void, but clearly that replacement won't be nearly as useful or in depth.

People are talking about how it would be difficult to create an analogue of every party member that could possibly die in ME2 because Bioware would essentially have to create 2 characters to serve the purpose of 1 squad member gameplay wise. Either that's enough development time that Bioware wouldn't bother to bring the ME2 squad back and just does a whole new team, or the party members who replace them will be half assed and lame.


Ideally, you would have both fully fleshed out versions of old characters and intriguing new characters for their replacements if you let them die, but I don't really expect that and I'm not sure anyone does.

[Lemonwizard]

Pho Kadat wrote...

Maybe this isn't directly on topic, but why does the ME3 squad need to get smaller because your squaddies died in ME2? What if those that die just get replaced with generic equivalents? That way, the penalty for losing a squaddie isn't so harsh as to create a void, but clearly that replacement won't be nearly as useful or in depth.

People are talking about how it would be difficult to create an analogue of every party member that could possibly die in ME2 because Bioware would essentially have to create 2 characters to serve the purpose of 1 squad member gameplay wise. Either that's enough development time that Bioware wouldn't bother to bring the ME2 squad back and just does a whole new team, or the party members who replace them will be half assed and lame.


Ideally, you would have both fully fleshed out versions of old characters and intriguing new characters for their replacements if you let them die, but I don't really expect that and I'm not sure anyone does.

[Toxik King]

Paradox 01 wrote...

Druss99 wrote...

Even on the default Shep without an imported save...

Hmm, now there's a thought.  What about people who play ME3 without ever having played either of the first two?  Should they be penalized for not having done so?  I can see rewarding those of us who have, but the opposite is a pretty sh!tty thought.

You do get penalised for not playing ME1 in ME2 though...

[Pauravi]

Paradox 01 wrote...

Druss99 wrote...

Even on the default Shep without an imported save...

Hmm, now there's a thought.  What about people who play ME3 without ever having played either of the first two?  Should they be penalized for not having done so?  I can see rewarding those of us who have, but the opposite is a pretty sh!tty thought.

You're already penalized by default by not having any control over the actions that Shepard takes in the first two games.  This will automatically be the case for any sequel that builds on decisions made in the previous game.  It is unavoidable, unless you make it so that, literally, the decisions in the first two games don't matter at all.  Bioware has never hidden their intention that your decisions will matter in the end, so buying ME3 without having played the other two is akin to acquiescing to playing "default" Shepard.

Modifié par Pauravi, 06 mars 2010 - 11:02 .

[Knoll Argonar]

Probably for the generic male/female Shep in ME3 they'll keep those ABSOLUTELY important characters, like Miranda (connection with TIM), Tali (connection with Fleet), maybe Grunt, Mordin (though I believe he'll be just the tech lab leader because he's 50 already, like a wise-man or something), Garrus for old-friendy-thingy, and Samara or Jack to keep some Biotic with you, and then start a game with a very cool mission when you meet them all and then go on.



For those who saved them all in ME3, maybe someone gets plot-killed like Thane, but you should keep every character, wouldn't be that difficult, so they appear in that cool begining mission.

[enormousmoonboots]

For default Shep, they're probably using the same datamining they did in the first game to determine stuff like Wrex dead, Council dead, etc, based on the most popular decisions.



I do agree, though. I'd really like to see some consequences for saving/killing your squaddies (other than a damn email).