312 réponses à ce sujet

[Pho Kadat]

Lemonwizard wrote...

Pho Kadat wrote...

Maybe this isn't directly on topic, but why does the ME3 squad need to get smaller because your squaddies died in ME2? What if those that die just get replaced with generic equivalents? That way, the penalty for losing a squaddie isn't so harsh as to create a void, but clearly that replacement won't be nearly as useful or in depth.

People are talking about how it would be difficult to create an analogue of every party member that could possibly die in ME2 because Bioware would essentially have to create 2 characters to serve the purpose of 1 squad member gameplay wise. Either that's enough development time that Bioware wouldn't bother to bring the ME2 squad back and just does a whole new team, or the party members who replace them will be half assed and lame.


Ideally, you would have both fully fleshed out versions of old characters and intriguing new characters for their replacements if you let them die, but I don't really expect that and I'm not sure anyone does.

Half assed and lame are a bit harsh, but essentially yes, that is what I'm advocating. The generic textures (aka citizen textures) are there and working character models (aka current squaddies) are there, so there seems to be minimal effort to combine the two to make a working character. Minimalize their dialogue trees, or even take the Zhaed route and don't make dialouge trees other than when they join. For powers, give them the same stuff as their full counterpart with the exception of their loyalty power. Slap on a background story and I think that's all they'd need to do, in theory.

Sure, it is more work than doing nothing and leaving the roster spots void, but I think it is better.

[Cyberfrog81]

Yes, ME2 is pretty much all about this bunch of super-elite badasses that you recruit and work with. It would be a complete waste if ME3 started with a blank slate.

I never lost more than 1 person without trying, and I suspect that is true for a LOT of people.

Modifié par Cyberfrog81, 07 mars 2010 - 02:21 .

[Deejtage]

I agree with the OP also, ME 3 should be about closure and what your squadmates end up like after you defeat the Reapers.

[Paradox 01]

Pauravi wrote...

Paradox 01 wrote...

Druss99 wrote...

Even on the default Shep without an imported save...

Hmm, now there's a thought.  What about people who play ME3 without ever having played either of the first two?  Should they be penalized for not having done so?  I can see rewarding those of us who have, but the opposite is a pretty sh!tty thought.

You're already penalized by default by not having any control over the actions that Shepard takes in the first two games.  This will automatically be the case for any sequel that builds on decisions made in the previous game.  It is unavoidable, unless you make it so that, literally, the decisions in the first two games don't matter at all.  Bioware has never hidden their intention that your decisions will matter in the end, so buying ME3 without having played the other two is akin to acquiescing to playing "default" Shepard.

Yeah, I realize that people were robbed of one aspect of the game by playing ME2 without ever having played the first game, but that's one aspect.  Granted, it's kind of a big one, but it seems like people are placing more emphasis on the survival of your squadmates from ME2 to ME3 than there was between the first two games.

And I have to admit it looks like BW is as well.  Only one NPC died in ME1 (for me at least, and IIRC, the max was two? Maybe?), but now we're talking about the possibility of players losing six or seven NPCs (if you really screw up).

BW has to keep in mind the fact that plenty of ME3 players will be newcomers to the ME universe and I guarantee they'll design the story with that in mind.  It won't be the foremost factor they take into account to be sure, but it'll happen to some degree.

IMO, Mass Effect is, above all else, an interactive story.  At worst, people who pick up ME3 should feel the need to play the first two because they missed out on "the story so far", not because they feel like they got cheated regarding what tools they have or don't have access to.

When it comes down to it, BW has to walk a fine line between pleasing people who have played the first two titles and those new to the universe.  I really don't envy them.

Modifié par Paradox 01, 07 mars 2010 - 09:18 .

[mortons4ck]

I'm 100% behind the OP.

What made ME2 so engaging was all the little bits they threw in there for people who played ME1. It improved the experience immensely.

ME3 should have a default were X-amount of characters were killed. But I feel ME3 should reward us for taking care of our squad for those of us who bothered to play ME2 and ME1.

Otherwise, ME3 will go from one of the most engaging experiences of all time to generic TPS.

Modifié par mortons4ck, 07 mars 2010 - 09:27 .

[Captain Chordata]

Agreed. I took time to complete the game, had everything researched, had a majority of the side missions I knew about completed before I went on the collector for the IFF, and finished the Tali and Legion loyalty missions before the kidnapping. On my first play through, everyone survived, so I'm going to be aggravated if all that work turns into a few cameos for some squadmates and others are just put on a bus.

What I'd rather see in place of generics is the option to try to recruit an old squadmate from ME1 to replace a dead squadmate with similar skill sets. That way you can fix holes in your team with someone you already know (makes it easier on the devs since it just be an expanded cameo really) and are focused on completing your mission with the Reapers instead of building another team for the third time. I like my team, so I'd rather the writers focused on creating and expanding characters outside the Normandy.

It's not like it's going to cause that much divergence anyway. For the most part, teammate plotlines are standalone and there's not much interaction between them. The most I'd see new players losing are not hearing being able to hear some character's VO's unless they play the first two games. And seriously, why would someone start with the third story of trilogy and NOT expect to lose something? It's like complaining that a movie makes no sense because you entered the theater with ten minutes left. The last game of a trilogy is hardly the best time to try to get new players into it. You're just going to make people wonder what the point of the first two was.

enormousmoonboots wrote...
For default Shep, they're probably using the same datamining they did in the first game to determine stuff like Wrex dead, Council dead, etc, based on the most popular decisions.

How do you get Wrex killed anyway? All three of my playthroughs, he survived with a speech check. And how did they data mine? Was it something in game or mostly net surfing?

Modifié par Captain Chordata, 07 mars 2010 - 08:10 .

[JnEricsonx]

I honestly believe that if someone fires up ME 3 without having played the first 2 games....:::turns into Gregory House::: They're an idiot. ::turns back:::

[DarthCaine]

1. This is BioWare we're talking about. They barely make ANY consequences

2. It's too much work

[Xandurpein]

One thing worth mentioning is that we really have host of squad mates in ME2. There are simply more squad mates than you can really feel attached too at the same time. I think they are doing this on purpose so that they create enough redundancy so you can play ME3 with the survivors of ME2 and not really suffer from it.



If there is no recruitiment or loyalty quests in ME3, the squad mates really becomes interchangeable. A few of the squad mates will be integral to the plot (Ashley/Kaidan and Liara), some of them may add some extra options when dealing with certain parts of the plot (Tali - recruting Quarians) and some doesn't affect the plot at all.



I think that those who claim that they can't allow all squad mates from ME2 in ME3 really need to explain what they mean by to many divergent paths. If a sqaud mate dies in ME2, it's not in ME3. That is an extremely easy to grasp consequence that seems perfectly possible to manage, as long as said squad mate doesn't have a key role in the plot.

[Cutlass Jack]

If my ME2 playthrough doesn't affect who's in my squad in ME3 I won't buy the game. Its as simple as that really. It would make ME2 pointless, and even worse, it would no longer be my Shepard's tale. So I wouldn't care how it ended.

I'd be willing to wait longer and pay twice as much for a version that really did it all right and didn't skimp for the sake of 'easy.' But won't pay a dime for the easy version.

[AntiChri5]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

If my ME2 playthrough doesn't affect who's in my squad in ME3 I won't buy the game. Its as simple as that really. It would make ME2 pointless, and even worse, it would no longer be my Shepard's tale. So I wouldn't care how it ended.

I'd be willing to wait longer and pay twice as much for a version that really did it all right and didn't skimp for the sake of 'easy.' But won't pay a dime for the easy version.

[rumblefv]

Captain Chordata wrote...

Agreed. I took time to complete the game, had everything researched, had a majority of the side missions I knew about completed before I went on the collector for the IFF, and finished the Tali and Legion loyalty missions before the kidnapping. On my first play through, everyone survived, so I'm going to be aggravated if all that work turns into a few cameos for some squadmates and others are just put on a bus.

What I'd rather see in place of generics is the option to try to recruit an old squadmate from ME1 to replace a dead squadmate with similar skill sets. That way you can fix holes in your team with someone you already know (makes it easier on the devs since it just be an expanded cameo really) and are focused on completing your mission with the Reapers instead of building another team for the third time. I like my team, so I'd rather the writers focused on creating and expanding characters outside the Normandy.

It's not like it's going to cause that much divergence anyway. For the most part, teammate plotlines are standalone and there's not much interaction between them. The most I'd see new players losing are not hearing being able to hear some character's VO's unless they play the first two games. And seriously, why would someone start with the third story of trilogy and NOT expect to lose something? It's like complaining that a movie makes no sense because you entered the theater with ten minutes left. The last game of a trilogy is hardly the best time to try to get new players into it. You're just going to make people wonder what the point of the first two was.

enormousmoonboots wrote...
For default Shep, they're probably using the same datamining they did in the first game to determine stuff like Wrex dead, Council dead, etc, based on the most popular decisions.

How do you get Wrex killed anyway? All three of my playthroughs, he survived with a speech check. And how did they data mine? Was it something in game or mostly net surfing?

You have the choice of shooting him yourself or one of your squadmates does it. You made the decision to talk him down. Others have not.

Not sure where he was going with "data mining" for Default Shepard. If you import then the game combs your save file for relevant plot info to go into ME2. If you do not import, then you follow Bioware's official story arc.

[rumblefv]

 I thought it was confirmed that any character who dies in ME2 will not show up in ME3? With the exception of Shepard where you play  a new one if he dies in ME2. 

"Part of what makes the final mission dangerous in a more profound way is that each squad member could potentially die a real, story-based death during that mission as well. You might have an ending where Shepard’s entire team survives, or where the entire mission is a bloodbath and everyone (including Shepard) is killed, or anything in between. And for all characters, death in Mass Effect 2 means they won’t show up in Mass Effect 3. "

[FataliTensei]

I agree completely with the OP, if you didn't take the time to try to keep everyone alive, then you should suffer the consequences of your actions. Running in without being prepared and killing half your team in the process should reflect badly on you in ME3, taking the time to make sure everything in the mission will be successful should reflect positively on you in ME3. I can't think of a reason why anyone would disagree with the OP

[FataliTensei]

Captain Chordata wrote...

Agreed. I took time to complete the game, had everything researched, had a majority of the side missions I knew about completed before I went on the collector for the IFF, and finished the Tali and Legion loyalty missions before the kidnapping. On my first play through, everyone survived, so I'm going to be aggravated if all that work turns into a few cameos for some squadmates and others are just put on a bus.

What I'd rather see in place of generics is the option to try to recruit an old squadmate from ME1 to replace a dead squadmate with similar skill sets. That way you can fix holes in your team with someone you already know (makes it easier on the devs since it just be an expanded cameo really) and are focused on completing your mission with the Reapers instead of building another team for the third time. I like my team, so I'd rather the writers focused on creating and expanding characters outside the Normandy.

It's not like it's going to cause that much divergence anyway. For the most part, teammate plotlines are standalone and there's not much interaction between them. The most I'd see new players losing are not hearing being able to hear some character's VO's unless they play the first two games. And seriously, why would someone start with the third story of trilogy and NOT expect to lose something? It's like complaining that a movie makes no sense because you entered the theater with ten minutes left. The last game of a trilogy is hardly the best time to try to get new players into it. You're just going to make people wonder what the point of the first two was.

enormousmoonboots wrote...
For default Shep, they're probably using the same datamining they did in the first game to determine stuff like Wrex dead, Council dead, etc, based on the most popular decisions.

How do you get Wrex killed anyway? All three of my playthroughs, he survived with a speech check. And how did they data mine? Was it something in game or mostly net surfing?

Yeah, the thrid game should not tailor to new players who didn't bother with the first two games <_<

[Multifarious Algorithm]

I am hoping against hope that Bioware pull something amazing with ME2 -> ME3 continuity. Like - if you import your save, the game simply loads up with you on the Normandy and everything exactly as you left it - then when you go to the galaxy map it interrupts to give the start of the story.

[Zhijn]

Atm (to me) the ME2 death of any team members just seem to be a replay feature for various "fun/gameplay scenarios". Like killing Shepard has no meaning with ME3 but its there for the replay value, and "how it could have ended!". Whos to say it isnt the same with the death of any teamsters.

Ofc i hope im wrong, and i probably am. Since BW always do manage to keep surprising their fans.

Modifié par Zhijn, 10 mars 2010 - 03:19 .

[Vaenier]

BioWare would never do it. It would save to much time and effort to use already existing characters. They are in it to lose money, not take the easy way out...

Wait...

[jklinders]

Call this metagaming if you want, but seriously, once you know how the suicide mission works, you can pretty much choose who lives and who dies. With this you could tailor you ME 3 experience to your wants. There should be consequences. Why shouldn't there be.

I don't know why anyone should complain about a gimped squad in ME3 when they could simply set it up that more of the squad survives.

[Akeashar]

That'd be an interesting concept, the DIAF challenge:



ME1 - Kill Wrex, Rachni Queen

ME2 - Kill all possible teammates, Destroy Collector Base, Destroy Genophage Cure, Send Migrant Fleet to war, deestroy Heretics, tell the Council and TIM where to stick it. Let entire crew be turned into human milkshake.

ME3 - Attempt to defeat the Reapers with Kaiden/Ashley, Liara and a slingshot.

[jtav]

Yeah, I think it might actually be easier to bring your old squaddies back. No need to write a recruitment mission/scene. The models have already been created. The VAs are paid by the project, so it costs almost as much to bring them back for a cameo as as part of the main cast. All Bioware has to do is write them new dialogue and interjections.

I don't think it's an accident that two people besides Shepard must survive to import into ME3.

[kaimanaMM]

If ME3 did away with everyone I recruited in ME2, I wouldn't lay down one penny for it.

The topic of ME3 being accessable to new players is another debate of which I can see either side, both as a long term ME player since the beginning and as someone who would love to see new people drawn to the franchise so they can experience the same great story and games that I've experienced. 

I really think Bioware will reward us all, the dedicated fans as well as the new faces, with a truly rewarding game from all angles as the final chapter.  There's really no reason for them not to, they are just as dedicated to and in love with ME as most of us are.

[jklinders]

Akeashar wrote...

That'd be an interesting concept, the DIAF challenge:

ME1 - Kill Wrex, Rachni Queen
ME2 - Kill all possible teammates, Destroy Collector Base, Destroy Genophage Cure, Send Migrant Fleet to war, deestroy Heretics, tell the Council and TIM where to stick it. Let entire crew be turned into human milkshake.
ME3 - Attempt to defeat the Reapers with Kaiden/Ashley, Liara and a slingshot.

At least 2 of your squad in ME2 has to survive, otherwise Shep dies, but yes, why not. If we place ourselves by our choices into a difficult spot it should be harder to win. That my friends is what choices and consequences are.

[TheLastAwakening]

Akeashar wrote...

That'd be an interesting concept, the DIAF challenge:

ME1 - Kill Wrex, Rachni Queen
ME2 - Kill all possible teammates, Destroy Collector Base, Destroy Genophage Cure, Send Migrant Fleet to war, deestroy Heretics, tell the Council and TIM where to stick it. Let entire crew be turned into human milkshake.
ME3 - Attempt to defeat the Reapers with Kaiden/Ashley, Liara and a slingshot.

I'd love to see this.... It'd one mess of a journey.