312 réponses à ce sujet

[JeanLuc761]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

If my ME2 playthrough doesn't affect who's in my squad in ME3 I won't buy the game. Its as simple as that really. It would make ME2 pointless, and even worse, it would no longer be my Shepard's tale. So I wouldn't care how it ended.

I'd be willing to wait longer and pay twice as much for a version that really did it all right and didn't skimp for the sake of 'easy.' But won't pay a dime for the easy version.

Said it perfectly.  There was way too much character development in ME2 to simply do away with it.

[MassAffected]

Lemonwizard wrote...

Nobody has any thoughts regarding this?

Lemon, you've said what a lot of us have been saying. I agree 110% with your OP. There will be folks coming in here to slam you for no better reason than just to be jerks about it...your idea is solid and I desperately hope its the route BioWare decides to go.

[MassAffected]

JeanLuc761 wrote...

Cutlass Jack wrote...

If my ME2 playthrough doesn't affect who's in my squad in ME3 I won't buy the game. Its as simple as that really. It would make ME2 pointless, and even worse, it would no longer be my Shepard's tale. So I wouldn't care how it ended.

I'd be willing to wait longer and pay twice as much for a version that really did it all right and didn't skimp for the sake of 'easy.' But won't pay a dime for the easy version.

Said it perfectly.  There was way too much character development in ME2 to simply do away with it.

All this and a bag of chips!

[TheTrooper1138]

Lemonwizard wrote...

Most people, unless they were very hasty or very stupid, will probably only lose 1 or 2 squadmates on the suicide mission their first playthrough. And I see no issue with making the game have consequences for being hasty or stupid. Rushing in unprepared shouldn't garner the same result, it should hurt you in the long run. That's how things work in real life.
 

I lost three and I wouldn't say I was either stupid nor hasty...
How was I supposed to know the game doesn't consider Zaeed a leader? I would consider him more of a leader than Garrus and Jacob, that's for sure and maybe even more than Miranda, though she at least has leader experience (and not in the way of getting her whole squad killed :innocent:). So I lost Legion and Zaeed, just because I made Zaeed squad leader. Then I sent Grund to protect the crew, since I thought it was best to send a strong fighter as he had to single-handedly defend the crew... so in the end lacking Zaeed and Grunt I lost Mordin in the defense... still, I stand by my decisions, since I think they were the most logical ones (though of course on my next playthroughs I will make different decisions... Zaeed squadleader and Jacob tech expert i.e.  and then Garrus 2nd squad leader, so Zaeed lives).. anyways...

Lemonwizard wrote...

So I say, let ME2 squad members return in ME3, and people who let them die just have a smaller squad. ME2 spent way too much time on character development for it all to get wasted on ten cameos. ME3 needs to be about the reapers, not about getting a whole new ragtag crew of adventurers. Let the default if you don't load a save have all recruitable characters alive, and people who rushed it in ME2 have consequences because of that. 

I agree on this, I want at least some of my crew back... remove Jacob, Thane and maybe Grunt (nothing against the last one, but he's not really interesting enough for another game imao), keep the rest, add Liara and Ash again and I'm fine with it...

[MassAffected]

TheTrooper1138 wrote...

Lemonwizard wrote...

Most people, unless they were very hasty or very stupid, will probably only lose 1 or 2 squadmates on the suicide mission their first playthrough. And I see no issue with making the game have consequences for being hasty or stupid. Rushing in unprepared shouldn't garner the same result, it should hurt you in the long run. That's how things work in real life.
 

I lost three and I wouldn't say I was either stupid nor hasty...
How was I supposed to know the game doesn't consider Zaeed a leader? I would consider him more of a leader than Garrus and Jacob, that's for sure and maybe even more than Miranda, though she at least has leader experience (and not in the way of getting her whole squad killed :innocent:). So I lost Legion and Zaeed, just because I made Zaeed squad leader. Then I sent Grund to protect the crew, since I thought it was best to send a strong fighter as he had to single-handedly defend the crew... so in the end lacking Zaeed and Grunt I lost Mordin in the defense... still, I stand by my decisions, since I think they were the most logical ones (though of course on my next playthroughs I will make different decisions... Zaeed squadleader and Jacob tech expert i.e.  and then Garrus 2nd squad leader, so Zaeed lives).. anyways...

Lemonwizard wrote...

So I say, let ME2 squad members return in ME3, and people who let them die just have a smaller squad. ME2 spent way too much time on character development for it all to get wasted on ten cameos. ME3 needs to be about the reapers, not about getting a whole new ragtag crew of adventurers. Let the default if you don't load a save have all recruitable characters alive, and people who rushed it in ME2 have consequences because of that. 

I agree on this, I want at least some of my crew back... remove Jacob, Thane and maybe Grunt (nothing against the last one, but he's not really interesting enough for another game imao), keep the rest, add Liara and Ash again and I'm fine with it...

Well, I assumed that Zaeed was a bad leader because every squad he was ever in charge of left him as the only survivor.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Lemonwizard wrote...

... - but you grow attached to them over the course of your adventure and learning their histories and personalities.

This is the biggest puzzle to me so far. BioWare is able to create these great characters which people like you and me grow attached to and yet they leave it completely wasted. Wrex, Ashley, Kaidan and Liara all get a small cameo, even though 3 of them were potential love interests in ME1 and Wrex was a favorite character of many players. Still, BioWare has chosen to ignore all that and replace them by other characters. The idea behind it is that these ME1 characters need to be kept alive for ME3. That's the impression BioWare gave us. So, a lot of players now think that the opposite may be true: If they can die in ME2 (even if they actually didn't) they won't appear as crew members in ME3. That may include Tali and Garrus. Whether that is true, remains to be seen, though.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 10 mars 2010 - 04:45 .

[TheTrooper1138]

MassAffected wrote...

Well, I assumed that Zaeed was a bad leader because every squad he was ever in charge of left him as the only survivor.

but then why does HE die, when you make him squadleader for the 2nd part? 

[MassAffected]

TheTrooper1138 wrote...

MassAffected wrote...

Well, I assumed that Zaeed was a bad leader because every squad he was ever in charge of left him as the only survivor.

but then why does HE die, when you make him squadleader for the 2nd part? 

...well...I mean...he...

[MassAffected]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Lemonwizard wrote...

... - but you grow attached to them over the course of your adventure and learning their histories and personalities.

This is the biggest puzzle to me so far. BioWare is able to create these great characters which people like you and me grow attached to and yet they leave it completely wasted. Wrex, Ashley, Kaidan and Liara all get a small cameo, even though 3 of them were potential love interests in ME1 and Wrex was a favorite character of many players. Still, BioWare has chosen to ignore all that and replace them by other characters. The idea behind it is that these ME1 characters need to be kept alive for ME3. That's the impression BioWare gave us. So, a lot of players now think that the opposite may be true: If they can die in ME2 (even if they actually didn't) they won't appear as crew members in ME3. That may include Tali and Garrus. Whether that is true, remains to be seen, though.

This discussion keeps going in circles, Wrex is obvious...if he lives he has a VERY important role in uniting the Krogan under his banner. As much as I want him in my party he is doing very important work. The other characters have their own problems to deal with...it has been TWO years since Shepard died. Kaiden or Ashley aren't just going to betray the alliance and THEIR mission to go work for Cerberus. Granted Liara got his body back from SB, but she still has a score to settle with the Shadow Broker...something that is very important to her. I think that all the characters will be back so that all of them get 2 games each. It makes no sense to cameo them in the THIRD and FINAL game and go around recruiting new people when you already have the best of the best at your disposal.

[AngryFrozenWater]

MassAffected wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Lemonwizard wrote...

... - but you grow attached to them over the course of your adventure and learning their histories and personalities.

This is the biggest puzzle to me so far. BioWare is able to create these great characters which people like you and me grow attached to and yet they leave it completely wasted. Wrex, Ashley, Kaidan and Liara all get a small cameo, even though 3 of them were potential love interests in ME1 and Wrex was a favorite character of many players. Still, BioWare has chosen to ignore all that and replace them by other characters. The idea behind it is that these ME1 characters need to be kept alive for ME3. That's the impression BioWare gave us. So, a lot of players now think that the opposite may be true: If they can die in ME2 (even if they actually didn't) they won't appear as crew members in ME3. That may include Tali and Garrus. Whether that is true, remains to be seen, though.

This discussion keeps going in circles, Wrex is obvious...if he lives he has a VERY important role in uniting the Krogan under his banner. As much as I want him in my party he is doing very important work. The other characters have their own problems to deal with...it has been TWO years since Shepard died. Kaiden or Ashley aren't just going to betray the alliance and THEIR mission to go work for Cerberus. Granted Liara got his body back from SB, but she still has a score to settle with the Shadow Broker...something that is very important to her. I think that all the characters will be back so that all of them get 2 games each. It makes no sense to cameo them in the THIRD and FINAL game and go around recruiting new people when you already have the best of the best at your disposal.

You can repeat as many times as you like that it doesn't make sense, but that doesn't make it true. You don't give a reason for that. You only tell us what you want. To be fair, I have no idea what BioWare dreams up. I can only respond to what BioWare tells us and what's in the game.

To you the new role of Wrex was obvious. To me it was not. No matter how hard I tried to convince him to help his people he moaned and groaned that it was no use. He told us even why he gave up on his people and told us about his father. He insisted that he was rather where the action was. And Shepard was close to the action.

That's moot now.

Still, the fact that they have different lifes now doesn't mean that they cannot be back in ME3. You are not able to provide me with logical reasons for them not to return. BioWare is the only one who knows.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 10 mars 2010 - 05:12 .

[RShara]

I'm betting that having certain people survive will unlock certain missions. Like, if Legion and Tali both survive, are both loyal, and you used the Paragon option to reconcile them a bit, you'll get to broker a peace between Geth and Quarian. And if you used the Renegade option, you can goad them in to war



And having the mission unlocked, or over the course of the mission, you get special upgrades for yourself or the crew/ship?

[Yeled]

RShara wrote...

I'm betting that having certain people survive will unlock certain missions. Like, if Legion and Tali both survive, are both loyal, and you used the Paragon option to reconcile them a bit, you'll get to broker a peace between Geth and Quarian. And if you used the Renegade option, you can goad them in to war

And having the mission unlocked, or over the course of the mission, you get special upgrades for yourself or the crew/ship?

I doubt it.  This is way too much work for Bioware to do, especially considering all the variations possible.  They aren't going to put so much into the game when more than half the people won't ever see any individual sets of content.

[JeanLuc761]

Yeled wrote...

RShara wrote...

I'm betting that having certain people survive will unlock certain missions. Like, if Legion and Tali both survive, are both loyal, and you used the Paragon option to reconcile them a bit, you'll get to broker a peace between Geth and Quarian. And if you used the Renegade option, you can goad them in to war

And having the mission unlocked, or over the course of the mission, you get special upgrades for yourself or the crew/ship?

I doubt it.  This is way too much work for Bioware to do, especially considering all the variations possible.  They aren't going to put so much into the game when more than half the people won't ever see any individual sets of content.

If more than half the people who played ME2 got most of their squadmates killed, I'll eat my own shoes.  You have to TRY to get more than 3 people killed on that mission, or you deliberately ignored everything the characters were telling you to do.

Also, when people say "this is too much work," think about this for a second:
- Mass Effect 2 is based entirely around recruiting the best of the best in the galaxy for a suicide mission; if Mass Effect 3 were to get rid of them all, that would force Bioware to not only come up with an entirely new squad, each with backstories and loyalty quests, but it would force them to somehow explain that Shepard's NEW squad is the best of the best. 

It is a LOT of work no matter what path they take, but the path that makes the most logical sense is to keep your surviving squadmates.

Modifié par JeanLuc761, 10 mars 2010 - 05:42 .

[spacehamsterZH]

Everyone survived on my first playthrough, and I wasn't even trying very hard, I just did all the loyalty quests and picked whoever I thought made the most sense for the tasks in the suicide mission. It really isn't hard.

[Barquiel]

RShara wrote...

I'm betting that having certain people survive will unlock certain missions. Like, if Legion and Tali both survive, are both loyal, and you used the Paragon option to reconcile them a bit, you'll get to broker a peace between Geth and Quarian. And if you used the Renegade option, you can goad them in to war

very unlikely
ME1/ME2:
You killed Wrex, Wreav gives you directions
You killed Shiala, some colonist gives you the mission

You don't miss content if you kill NPCs in ME1 (except Conrads quest)

I think we get Liara, the Virmire survivor and 2-3 new characters (= minimum squad for people who killed their ME2 squad)
+ 5-6 ME2 squadmates

Modifié par Barquiel, 10 mars 2010 - 06:05 .

[jtav]

I'm not buying the "harder to implement" argument. Everyone seems to think either Ash or Kaidan will have a big role complete with romance, and one of them is guaranteed to be dead. It's not that much harder to bring the surviving ME2 squadmates back as optional members.

[Mr_Steph]

I definitely agree

[Nozybidaj]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

If my ME2 playthrough doesn't affect who's in my squad in ME3 I won't buy the game. Its as simple as that really. It would make ME2 pointless, and even worse, it would no longer be my Shepard's tale. So I wouldn't care how it ended.

I'd be willing to wait longer and pay twice as much for a version that really did it all right and didn't skimp for the sake of 'easy.' But won't pay a dime for the easy version.

I'd still be willing to pay for a game where my ME1 playthrough affected who's in my squad in ME2, otherwise I really had no reason to buy the game.  It is simple as that really.  It made ME2 pointless, and even worse, it was no longer my Shepard's tale.  So I never really cared who died or how it ended.

I'd be willing to pay twice as much for a version of ME2 that really did it all right and didn't skimp on the development of the ME1 characters all for the sake of being "dark and edgy".  Doubt I'll pay a dime for ME3 if they don't realize what it means to do a trilogy right.

[Yeled]

JeanLuc761 wrote...

If more than half the people who played ME2 got most of their squadmates killed, I'll eat my own shoes.  You have to TRY to get more than 3 people killed on that mission, or you deliberately ignored everything the characters were telling you to do.

That's not my point.  The suggestion was that combinations of survivors leads to specific side quests.   That means in order to trigger the side quest, you need to have all the prequisite survivors available.

All it takes to remove a huge portion of game content, then, is the removal of one squadmate.  Remove two, and you have another section of content gone.  Remove three, and you're in serious trouble.

I suppose BW could ignore all that, but their track record now doesn't point to them behaving this way.

[Lemonwizard]

Even if somebody did get the majority of their squad killed without trying to do so, you can always just say that the default new game without using an ME2 save has all the people who are recruitable with round 3 alive.





The point of loading old saves is that your choices in the last game carry over to the next game. I would say neglecting to earn characters' loyalties and rushing into the suicide mission unprepared is a significant choice and the way it would carry over into the next game is by Shepard having a smaller and weaker squad.







There have to be some party members you get regardless just to keep the third game balanced, but I see no reason why it's not possible to have a few characters some people just don't get. It happens in ME2 with Grunt and Legion, they're both fully developed but you can opt not to get them via your story decisions.

[jlb524]

Barquiel wrote...


I think we get Liara, the Virmire survivor and 2-3 new characters (= minimum squad for people who killed their ME2 squad)
+ 5-6 ME2 squadmates

I think this is close to what's going to happen, except I only think they'll bring back 4 ME2 squad mates and have 4 new ones.

If those 4 ME2 squad mates died, you'll still at least have a team of 6 (just like ME1).  If those 4 ME2 squad mates all survived, then you'll have at most a team of 10 (same as ME2). 

I'm guessing at the number 4, but it makes sense given squad size of the last two games.  It could be 5...it could be 3, but I doubt it will be all 10 (not counting Zaeed).  If they are bringing back ME2 squad mates, it can only be a handful...something manageable.

The question is then:  Which 4  ME2 squad mates will they pick to bring back as full squad mates?

[Lemonwizard]

They'd probably all be ME2's love interests. But if it were only 4, which 4? I would guess the 2 to get ditched are Jacob (smallest fanbase by far) or Thane (because he has a story justification to be dead no matter how the suicide mission turns out) and Jack (both because Tali and Miranda are more popular and because storyline-wise she seems the most likely to not stick around).

[JeanLuc761]

jlb524 wrote...
The question is then:  Which 4  ME2 squad mates will they pick to bring back as full squad mates?

4 seems like too few, since there are a lot of characters in ME2 that hold significant importance/have no reason to leave:

- Miranda: quits Cerberus at the end of the game, where's she going to go?
- Jacob: Same as above I believe
- Garrus: Fan-favorite and arguably Shepard's best friend (MaleShep at least)
- Tali: Also a fan-favorite but her connection to the Migrant Fleet is a crucial one.
- Legion: He could plausibly be written out as "Returning to the Geth to rally them", but he could also stay with Shepard
- Grunt: Shepard is his "battlemaster," and he's part of Shepard's clan.  I can't see him leaving anytime soon

I suppose you could argue that Miranda and Jacob will leave Cerberus and disappear but I can't exactly see what good it would do if they, for lack of a better phrase, abandoned Shepard when the Reaper threat is coming.

Matter of fact, I can't really see ANY squadmate (except maybe Zaeed and Jack) leaving Shepard.  Don't even get me started on love interests.

Modifié par JeanLuc761, 10 mars 2010 - 06:25 .

[KainrycKarr]

Everything is modular. Wouldn't be hard to simply create replacement characters for dead characters in people's saves.



Bioware does not need to keep track of stuff for an ME4, so they can divulge the plot as much as they want for ME3. They can, and have said they want, to go all out.



My expection is a selection of squadmates, but i don't expect ALL of them to be obtainable. I expect who you can pick to be reliant on your previous decisions.



People greatly overestimate the resource-cost of putting a little extra effort into making replacements.

[Nozybidaj]

jlb524 wrote...

Barquiel wrote...


I think we get Liara, the Virmire survivor and 2-3 new characters (= minimum squad for people who killed their ME2 squad)
+ 5-6 ME2 squadmates

I think this is close to what's going to happen, except I only think they'll bring back 4 ME2 squad mates and have 4 new ones.

If those 4 ME2 squad mates died, you'll still at least have a team of 6 (just like ME1).  If those 4 ME2 squad mates all survived, then you'll have at most a team of 10 (same as ME2). 

I'm guessing at the number 4, but it makes sense given squad size of the last two games.  It could be 5...it could be 3, but I doubt it will be all 10 (not counting Zaeed).  If they are bringing back ME2 squad mates, it can only be a handful...something manageable.

The question is then:  Which 4  ME2 squad mates will they pick to bring back as full squad mates?

1)  Mordin
2)  Grunt
3)  Thane
4)  Jack or Samara

When we talk about "the best of the best" part of the recruitment these are really the folks we are talking about.  These are the ones we recruited for their "combat prowess".  The rest were either already attached to you simply due to their Cerberus affiliation or because they were previous squadmates who just happened to have nothing better to do.  Tali/Garrus/Miranda/Jacob could hardly be considered "the best of the best" at what they do.