312 réponses à ce sujet

[RShara]

Barquiel wrote...

RShara wrote...

I'm betting that having certain people survive will unlock certain missions. Like, if Legion and Tali both survive, are both loyal, and you used the Paragon option to reconcile them a bit, you'll get to broker a peace between Geth and Quarian. And if you used the Renegade option, you can goad them in to war

very unlikely
ME1/ME2:
You killed Wrex, Wreav gives you directions
You killed Shiala, some colonist gives you the mission

You don't miss content if you kill NPCs in ME1 (except Conrads quest)

I think we get Liara, the Virmire survivor and 2-3 new characters (= minimum squad for people who killed their ME2 squad)
+ 5-6 ME2 squadmates

Hmm true.  Then maybe the sidequests will still be there, but depending on whether the squadmate survived or not, you'll get that squadmate (Maybe with a vested interest in supporting your decision), otherwise you'll get some stranger who may/may not agree with you.

[Barquiel]

jlb524 wrote...

The question is then:  Which 4  ME2 squad mates will they pick to bring back as full squad mates?

Miranda, Jacob, Garrus, Tali...maybe Grunt?

Thane and Jack are the tragic romances
Samara: justicar business (maybe a temporary squadmate)
Morinth, Zaaed: killing people?
Legion: I don't know...geth ambassador on the citadel^_^

[jlb524]

It's possible they could just bring back the 4 more popular LIs. Two for the MaleSheps (Tali/Miranda) and two for the FemSheps (Thane/Garrus). However, Jack and Jacob fans will feel slighted. Plus, a lot of people like Mordin and Legion who are non-LIs.



Also, consider that it would be easier to implement non-LI ME2 squad mates in ME3 than it would LI ones. The LI squad mates would just be cameos then. If this is the case, they wouldn't have to write extra dialog and scenes for the romances and could just have their story resolved in one cameo scene at the end.

[JeanLuc761]

Nozybidaj wrote...
Tali/Garrus/Miranda/Jacob could hardly be considered "the best of the best" at what they do.

To be blunt, that's a bunch of bull****

Tali has repeatedly been described as one of the best, if not the best quarian engineer out there.
Garrus was one of the first dossiers the Illusive Man gave you, and he's an extremely adept killer
Miranda IS the best at what she does, otherwise the Illusive Man wouldn't have given her the responsibility she has.
Jacob...well okay you may have a point with him.

jlb524 wrote...
Also, consider that it would be
easier to implement non-LI ME2 squad mates in ME3 than it would LI
ones. The LI squad mates would just be cameos then. If this is the
case, they wouldn't have to write extra dialog and scenes for the
romances and could just have their story resolved in one cameo scene at
the end.

Understandable, but would likely result in a massive uprising of the fanbase.

Modifié par JeanLuc761, 10 mars 2010 - 06:31 .

[Nozybidaj]

jlb524 wrote...

It's possible they could just bring back the 4 more popular LIs. Two for the MaleSheps (Tali/Miranda) and two for the FemSheps (Thane/Garrus). However, Jack and Jacob fans will feel slighted. Plus, a lot of people like Mordin and Legion who are non-LIs.

Also, consider that it would be easier to implement non-LI ME2 squad mates in ME3 than it would LI ones. The LI squad mates would just be cameos then. If this is the case, they wouldn't have to write extra dialog and scenes for the romances and could just have their story resolved in one cameo scene at the end.

Sounds to me like the best solution all around.

[Yeled]

JeanLuc761 wrote...

jlb524 wrote...
The question is then:  Which 4  ME2 squad mates will they pick to bring back as full squad mates?

4 seems like too few, since there are a lot of characters in ME2 that hold significant importance/have no reason to leave:

- Miranda: quits Cerberus at the end of the game, where's she going to go?
- Jacob: Same as above I believe
- Garrus: Fan-favorite and arguably Shepard's best friend (MaleShep at least)
- Tali: Also a fan-favorite but her connection to the Migrant Fleet is a crucial one.
- Legion: He could plausibly be written out as "Returning to the Geth to rally them", but he could also stay with Shepard
- Grunt: Shepard is his "battlemaster," and he's part of Shepard's clan.  I can't see him leaving anytime soon

I suppose you could argue that Miranda and Jacob will leave Cerberus and disappear but I can't exactly see what good it would do if they, for lack of a better phrase, abandoned Shepard when the Reaper threat is coming.

Matter of fact, I can't really see ANY squadmate (except maybe Zaeed and Jack) leaving Shepard.  Don't even get me started on love interests.

History would seem to point to a different conclusion than the one you've drawn.  The same arguments you are making could have been made regarding the transition from ME1 to ME2.  BW went a different route and only brought back 2 characters, neither of which could be killed in ME1.

No matter how much you want the ME2 characters to move into ME3, Bioware will do what they want and come up with story reasons to justify their decisions, even if those decisions seem empty, misguided, or contrived.

[Lemonwizard]

Nozybidaj wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

Barquiel wrote...


I think we get Liara, the Virmire survivor and 2-3 new characters (= minimum squad for people who killed their ME2 squad)
+ 5-6 ME2 squadmates

I think this is close to what's going to happen, except I only think they'll bring back 4 ME2 squad mates and have 4 new ones.

If those 4 ME2 squad mates died, you'll still at least have a team of 6 (just like ME1).  If those 4 ME2 squad mates all survived, then you'll have at most a team of 10 (same as ME2). 

I'm guessing at the number 4, but it makes sense given squad size of the last two games.  It could be 5...it could be 3, but I doubt it will be all 10 (not counting Zaeed).  If they are bringing back ME2 squad mates, it can only be a handful...something manageable.

The question is then:  Which 4  ME2 squad mates will they pick to bring back as full squad mates?

1)  Mordin
2)  Grunt
3)  Thane
4)  Jack or Samara

When we talk about "the best of the best" part of the recruitment these are really the folks we are talking about.  These are the ones we recruited for their "combat prowess".  The rest were either already attached to you simply due to their Cerberus affiliation or because they were previous squadmates who just happened to have nothing better to do.  Tali/Garrus/Miranda/Jacob could hardly be considered "the best of the best" at what they do.

The Illusive Man wanted Shepard to recruit Garrus before he knew it was Garrus. I mean, the guy had three entire mercenary armies teaming up against him (you have to be pretty damn good to justify that) AND he defended himself single handedly against them for what is clearly implied to be days at least, shot down a helicopter gunship by himself, etc. Not to mention his experience in the first game. It's clear that even though he's not the best of the best when you first meet him as a cop on the citadel, he has most definitely become it since then.

[Nozybidaj]

JeanLuc761 wrote...

Nozybidaj wrote...
Tali/Garrus/Miranda/Jacob could hardly be considered "the best of the best" at what they do.

To be blunt, that's a bunch of bull****

Tali has repeatedly been described as one of the best, if not the best quarian engineer out there.
Garrus was one of the first dossiers the Illusive Man gave you, and he's an extremely adept killer
Miranda IS the best at what she does, otherwise the Illusive Man wouldn't have given her the responsibility she has.
Jacob...well okay you may have a point with him.

Tali couldn't even understand the results of her father's research you find in her loyalty mission or understand why she was sending parts back to the Flotilla. I would think that someone who is "the best" at what she does would have had some inkling as to why they were gathering these parts and once on the ship been able to figure out how the research was applicable.

Thane does everything Garrus does, only with more style. 

Miranda doesn't have any special combat skills, there are better biotic and tech companions out there.

Jacob, yeah.

If we are talking about folks we recruited because they are "the best of the best" these four certainly do not apply.

[MassAffected]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

MassAffected wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Lemonwizard wrote...

... - but you grow attached to them over the course of your adventure and learning their histories and personalities.

This is the biggest puzzle to me so far. BioWare is able to create these great characters which people like you and me grow attached to and yet they leave it completely wasted. Wrex, Ashley, Kaidan and Liara all get a small cameo, even though 3 of them were potential love interests in ME1 and Wrex was a favorite character of many players. Still, BioWare has chosen to ignore all that and replace them by other characters. The idea behind it is that these ME1 characters need to be kept alive for ME3. That's the impression BioWare gave us. So, a lot of players now think that the opposite may be true: If they can die in ME2 (even if they actually didn't) they won't appear as crew members in ME3. That may include Tali and Garrus. Whether that is true, remains to be seen, though.

This discussion keeps going in circles, Wrex is obvious...if he lives he has a VERY important role in uniting the Krogan under his banner. As much as I want him in my party he is doing very important work. The other characters have their own problems to deal with...it has been TWO years since Shepard died. Kaiden or Ashley aren't just going to betray the alliance and THEIR mission to go work for Cerberus. Granted Liara got his body back from SB, but she still has a score to settle with the Shadow Broker...something that is very important to her. I think that all the characters will be back so that all of them get 2 games each. It makes no sense to cameo them in the THIRD and FINAL game and go around recruiting new people when you already have the best of the best at your disposal.

You can repeat as many times as you like that it doesn't make sense, but that doesn't make it true. You don't give a reason for that. You only tell us what you want. To be fair, I have no idea what BioWare dreams up. I can only respond to what BioWare tells us and what's in the game.

To you the new role of Wrex was obvious. To me it was not. No matter how hard I tried to convince him to help his people he moaned and groaned that it was no use. He told us even why he gave up on his people and told us about his father. He insisted that he was rather where the action was. And Shepard was close to the action.

That's moot now.

Still, the fact that they have different lifes now doesn't mean that they cannot be back in ME3. You are not able to provide me with logical reasons for them not to return. BioWare is the only one who knows.

I think you've misunderstood what I'm trying to say here. I was saying that ALL squadies from ME1 and ME2 that survived WILL be back in the third one. I said it makes no sense to recruit NEW people. I only said that the reason the ME1 squadies were unavailable in ME2 was because they had other things going on. ME3 is the final act and so I firmly believe/hope that every surviving member from ME1 and ME2 will be back and recruitable.

[Barquiel]

I think "the best of the best" are

Mordin (as a scientist)

Thane (assassin)

and maybe Grunt (if he gets more experience)

[Onyx Jaguar]

But what use would Shepard have for an assassin exactly?

[Barquiel]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

But what use would Shepard have for an assassin exactly?

I don't know...I usually don't recruit Thane:whistle:

[JeanLuc761]

Yeled wrote...
History would seem to point to a different conclusion than the one you've drawn.  The same arguments you are making could have been made regarding the transition from ME1 to ME2.  BW went a different route and only brought back 2 characters, neither of which could be killed in ME1.

No matter how much you want the ME2 characters to move into ME3, Bioware will do what they want and come up with story reasons to justify their decisions, even if those decisions seem empty, misguided, or contrived.

I fully understand where you're coming from, but I honestly think the Ashley/Kaiden and Liara situations were handled properly.  While I get that it was disappointing to their fanbases, Shepard was killed and had been "dead" for two years.  The pain of losing him and seeing him with Cerberus is justification enough for Ashley/Kaiden to shun you for Mass Effect 2, and Liara's busy with the Shadow Broker.

Admittedly, you have a point that Bioware could come up with reasons to remove the ME2 squadmates as well, but justifying that decision would be much more difficult, given that I don't expect Shepard to be killed (again) at the start of Mass Effect 3.

[Knoll Argonar]

Yeled wrote...

JeanLuc761 wrote...

If more than half the people who played ME2 got most of their squadmates killed, I'll eat my own shoes.  You have to TRY to get more than 3 people killed on that mission, or you deliberately ignored everything the characters were telling you to do.

That's not my point.  The suggestion was that combinations of survivors leads to specific side quests.   That means in order to trigger the side quest, you need to have all the prequisite survivors available.

All it takes to remove a huge portion of game content, then, is the removal of one squadmate.  Remove two, and you have another section of content gone.  Remove three, and you're in serious trouble.

I suppose BW could ignore all that, but their track record now doesn't point to them behaving this way.

Hmm.....

Generic John Shepard with every combination of survivors that trigger sidequest maybe? Remember that you can always begin a new game in every new videogame in existence.

Only those who import really lame Shepards (that's it, just 4 of your crew or less survive) would not trigger those sidequest. Newer people would get all content possible, so it may arrive to as much people as possible, and those who played "well" (or just played, otherwise) will have all characters back.

Just an idea, hum.

[Nozybidaj]

JeanLuc761 wrote...

I fully understand where you're coming from, but I honestly think the Ashley/Kaiden and Liara situations were handled properly. 

Then we all agree.  Cameos for the ME2 crew in ME3.

[JeanLuc761]

Nozybidaj wrote...

JeanLuc761 wrote...

I fully understand where you're coming from, but I honestly think the Ashley/Kaiden and Liara situations were handled properly. 

Then we all agree.  Cameos for the ME2 crew in ME3.

Forgive me, but are you really THAT bitter about losing Liara in Mass Effect 2?  

[MassAffected]

Nozybidaj wrote...

JeanLuc761 wrote...

I fully understand where you're coming from, but I honestly think the Ashley/Kaiden and Liara situations were handled properly. 

Then we all agree.  Cameos for the ME2 crew in ME3.

No, we don't...you just want the fans of ME2 LIs and squad members to feel this "kick in the nads" that BioWare allegedly gave you.

[MassAffected]

JeanLuc761 wrote...

Nozybidaj wrote...

JeanLuc761 wrote...

I fully understand where you're coming from, but I honestly think the Ashley/Kaiden and Liara situations were handled properly. 

Then we all agree.  Cameos for the ME2 crew in ME3.

Forgive me, but are you really THAT bitter about losing Liara in Mass Effect 2?  

Seems crazy doesn't it? I still can't wrap my mind around it.

[Knoll Argonar]

JeanLuc761 wrote...

Nozybidaj wrote...

JeanLuc761 wrote...

I fully understand where you're coming from, but I honestly think the Ashley/Kaiden and Liara situations were handled properly. 

Then we all agree.  Cameos for the ME2 crew in ME3.

Forgive me, but are you really THAT bitter about losing Liara in Mass Effect 2?  

Yeah, that's really a lot of hate. Not healthy to stay on forums where people are pleased with what Bioware did to Garrus and Tali =3

[jtav]

Can I just say how tired I am of the attitude of "Because I didn't get to recruit Ash/Kaidan?Liara in ME2, it would be unfair for any of the ME2 cast (especially LIs) to return." I can understand thinking it's a logistical nightmare, but some people are being downright vindictive. There's nothing unfair about everyone (except Tali and Garrus) getting two games.

[MassAffected]

jtav wrote...

Can I just say how tired I am of the attitude of "Because I didn't get to recruit Ash/Kaidan?Liara in ME2, it would be unfair for any of the ME2 cast (especially LIs) to return." I can understand thinking it's a logistical nightmare, but some people are being downright vindictive. There's nothing unfair about everyone (except Tali and Garrus) getting two games.

Can I just completely agree with everything you wrote there?

[Yeled]

JeanLuc761 wrote...

Nozybidaj wrote...

JeanLuc761 wrote...

I fully understand where you're coming from, but I honestly think the Ashley/Kaiden and Liara situations were handled properly. 

Then we all agree.  Cameos for the ME2 crew in ME3.

Forgive me, but are you really THAT bitter about losing Liara in Mass Effect 2?  

Nozy?  Oh, yes. Nozy is definitely that bitter.

As for me, I'm more disappointed than bitter.  I wouldn't mind ME2 squadmates in ME3, but it would not surprise me if Bioware didn't include them.  And if it comes down to one group or the other (not that it would), I'd definitely go with ME1.  ME2 felt hollow to me and I had trouble getting immersed because I didn't feel any emotional connection to it.  That said, I do like a few of the ME2 characters and wouldn't have any problem with their conclusion.

In the end, though, it is no more justifiable to omit the ME1 characters from ME2 as it would be to omit the ME2 characters from ME3.  They contrived a reason to keep them from ME2 in ME2, and they can do the same in ME3.  I find the way they handled the ME1 characters to be mostly deplorable, mostly because there was no substance to the minimal roles they wound up playing.  Kaiden/Ash got angry at you without you being able to really react in any meaningful way, and Liara's obsession with the SB doesn't seem at all justified (plus you can't interact with her in a meaningful way either).  I can see her wanting to get him, but not at the expense of Shep's clearly important mission.

Do I expect better for them and the ME2 squadies in ME3?  Not sure.  I've already been disappointed once.

[Knoll Argonar]

MassAffected wrote...

jtav wrote...

Can I just say how tired I am of the attitude of "Because I didn't get to recruit Ash/Kaidan?Liara in ME2, it would be unfair for any of the ME2 cast (especially LIs) to return." I can understand thinking it's a logistical nightmare, but some people are being downright vindictive. There's nothing unfair about everyone (except Tali and Garrus) getting two games.

Can I just completely agree with everything you wrote there?

Can I too?

They're biased by hate. That's all.

[Barquiel]

I agree...disappointed



ME2 squad: I would miss Miranda and Samara in ME3

the rest? I couldn't care less