Aller au contenu

Photo

Why can't our story actions have gameplay consequences in ME3?


  • Veuillez vous connecter pour répondre
312 réponses à ce sujet

#101
Yeled

Yeled
  • Members
  • 784 messages

Knoll Argonar wrote...

MassAffected wrote...

jtav wrote...

Can I just say how tired I am of the attitude of "Because I didn't get to recruit Ash/Kaidan?Liara in ME2, it would be unfair for any of the ME2 cast (especially LIs) to return." I can understand thinking it's a logistical nightmare, but some people are being downright vindictive. There's nothing unfair about everyone (except Tali and Garrus) getting two games.


Can I just completely agree with everything you wrote there? Image IPB


Can I too? :o

They're biased by hate. That's all.


I think some of that is generated by the lack of sympathy a lot of people show them, as well as the way people seem to ignore what happened in the past when thinking about ME2 characters in ME3.  Its annoying to be told, oh yeah, screw Liara, she was handled properly when no fan of Tali or Garrus or Miranda or Thane would accept the same thing for their favorite character.

#102
Big_Choppa

Big_Choppa
  • Members
  • 364 messages
I definitely want to see my actions have consequences in Mass Effect 3., especially if I get my own party members killed. Somehow I feel like Mass Effect 2 is a character building session before the epic conclusion in ME3.

#103
Knoll Argonar

Knoll Argonar
  • Members
  • 624 messages

Barquiel wrote...

I agree...disappointed

ME2 squad: I would miss Miranda and Samara in ME3
the rest? I couldn't care less


So?

Bioware doesn't make games only for you =/ Some people like me and (I Think) MassAffected want/hope to see them again in ME3 as squaddies.

#104
JeanLuc761

JeanLuc761
  • Members
  • 6 480 messages

Knoll Argonar wrote...

MassAffected wrote...

jtav wrote...

Can I just say how tired I am of the attitude of "Because I didn't get to recruit Ash/Kaidan?Liara in ME2, it would be unfair for any of the ME2 cast (especially LIs) to return." I can understand thinking it's a logistical nightmare, but some people are being downright vindictive. There's nothing unfair about everyone (except Tali and Garrus) getting two games.


Can I just completely agree with everything you wrote there? Image IPB


Can I too? :o

They're biased by hate. That's all.

I'm with these guys.

I completely sympathize with the people who saw a couple of their favorite characters relegated to seemingly simple cameos, but we should NOT be looking to do the same in Mass Effect 2 simply to be "fair."

The only critieria on which the return of a squadmate should return is this: Are they important enough to the current storyline to justify a position on your squad.  It should have nothing to do with personal bias or bitterness over a decision you didn't agree with.

I was also disappointed that Wrex, Liara and Ashley/Kaiden were unrecruitable, but I understood why Bioware did it; they were completely irrelevant to the suicide mission.

Modifié par JeanLuc761, 10 mars 2010 - 07:02 .


#105
MassAffected

MassAffected
  • Members
  • 1 716 messages

Yeled wrote...

Knoll Argonar wrote...

MassAffected wrote...

jtav wrote...

Can I just say how tired I am of the attitude of "Because I didn't get to recruit Ash/Kaidan?Liara in ME2, it would be unfair for any of the ME2 cast (especially LIs) to return." I can understand thinking it's a logistical nightmare, but some people are being downright vindictive. There's nothing unfair about everyone (except Tali and Garrus) getting two games.


Can I just completely agree with everything you wrote there? Image IPB


Can I too? :o

They're biased by hate. That's all.


I think some of that is generated by the lack of sympathy a lot of people show them, as well as the way people seem to ignore what happened in the past when thinking about ME2 characters in ME3.  Its annoying to be told, oh yeah, screw Liara, she was handled properly when no fan of Tali or Garrus or Miranda or Thane would accept the same thing for their favorite character.


Thats funny, I've been posting in the Liara support thread when I am very clearly pro Miranda. Every time there is a returning squad discussion I make sure to stress the importance of all the surviving ME1 and ME2 cast coming back. I think that a lot of folks stop showing sympathy because the first thing people like Nozy do is come into a thread and rage/attack at anything and everything. Hard to feel sorry for folks like that.

#106
Knoll Argonar

Knoll Argonar
  • Members
  • 624 messages

Yeled wrote...

Knoll Argonar wrote...

MassAffected wrote...

jtav wrote...

Can I just say how tired I am of the attitude of "Because I didn't get to recruit Ash/Kaidan?Liara in ME2, it would be unfair for any of the ME2 cast (especially LIs) to return." I can understand thinking it's a logistical nightmare, but some people are being downright vindictive. There's nothing unfair about everyone (except Tali and Garrus) getting two games.


Can I just completely agree with everything you wrote there? Image IPB


Can I too? :o

They're biased by hate. That's all.


I think some of that is generated by the lack of sympathy a lot of people show them, as well as the way people seem to ignore what happened in the past when thinking about ME2 characters in ME3.  Its annoying to be told, oh yeah, screw Liara, she was handled properly when no fan of Tali or Garrus or Miranda or Thane would accept the same thing for their favorite character.


Yeah, but there's still ME3 left.

Wouldn't mind to have Tali and Garrus as cameos in ME3, if that ment I got them for sure for ME4. But since there's no ME4, cameos don't make any real sense.

#107
Onyx Jaguar

Onyx Jaguar
  • Members
  • 13 003 messages
To be fair that person finds his way into any anti-ME 2 thread, I bet I could post a thread detailing how the colors were screwed up in ME 2 compared to ME 1 and he would be on my side.

#108
Barquiel

Barquiel
  • Members
  • 5 848 messages

Knoll Argonar wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

I agree...disappointed

ME2 squad: I would miss Miranda and Samara in ME3
the rest? I couldn't care less


So?

Bioware doesn't make games only for you =/ Some people like me and (I Think) MassAffected want/hope to see them again in ME3 as squaddies.


and?

- ME2 squadmates return: fine (I already killed the characters that annoyed me)
- ME2 squadmates don't return: why not (I wouldn't miss most of them)

#109
janeym27

janeym27
  • Members
  • 1 626 messages
I agree that there should be more direct story consequences to the gameplay. After all, it's the epic story/gameplay integration that makes the Mass Effect games so damn enticing to me in the first place. I'd love it if there were actual missions and story elements which were totally different, or available/unavailable in ME3 based on choices made as far back as ME1. For example, a showdown/mission which is riggered if you romanced a certain character or 2, but won't trigger otherwise, or a mission for Garrus which will only trigger if he's been a squadmate for your Shep since ME1. Or maybe missions which van only be triggered if you have lost a teammate. Make it impossible to get all the content in a single trilogy playthrough. Make certain endings only available based on squad wins and losses/ choices made in all three games. Hell, make the 'best' endings only available if you did kill Wrex on Virmire - mix it up, bring it on! Make our choices matter in ways we never expected them to.

I don't think by offering different missions available only to people who took certain paths is a bad thing, or a disservice to anyone who is playing the game. I know very few Mass Effect fans who have left either game at a single playthorugh as it is, so to give me better story/gameplay reasons for my replays would just make me ecstatic. (not that I don't have reason enough alread). 

I don't think anyone is saying that if you lost a squadmate you played it 'wrong'. Some of us lost squadmates because we made choices true to our Shep's perosnality. Other people seem to have lost people they did not expect to lose, but that is the beauty of the suicide mission: it could potentially lose you anyone. If come Mass Effect 3 it doesn't affect my party choices, or effect elements of the story in some way, I'm going to feel cheated. It's going to matter less, and I probably won't care as much as I did during this one. My heart was in my chest for a lot of it because this stuff mattered, dammit! If by the beginning of ME3 those 'consequences' come down to a 2 line conversation I can see on youtube, it won't anymore.

I know, I know - what I'm asking for requires multiple character arcs, and extra work, but I'd assume building mission levels isn't too hard once the blocks are there, so it's really down to extra work for the writers, actors and ainmators. But you know what, I can't see anyone putting this level of thought and soul into creating these these characters so far not to care about the end experience. I don't even care how much longer we'd have to wait or if they jacked the cost up a litle, if the experience level was to get that much deeper. Heavy Rain is doing choice and consequence very well right now to the point that the game can be an entirly different interpration and experience, and I hope that's what we get with ME3. There are a lot of expectations on this game, and I hope (and trust) that Bioware do it right. Don't rush out a game to capitalise on the hype - take the time to make it worth the wait. And we will wait. Some less patiently than others, granted. But I always think the best games are simply ready when they are ready.

When I finish Mass Effect 3, the ultimate test of the story arc/gameplay variety would be if as soon as I take Shepard to her end, I put in ME1 and start from the beginning.

#110
Yeled

Yeled
  • Members
  • 784 messages

JeanLuc761 wrote...

Knoll Argonar wrote...

MassAffected wrote...

jtav wrote...

Can I just say how tired I am of the attitude of "Because I didn't get to recruit Ash/Kaidan?Liara in ME2, it would be unfair for any of the ME2 cast (especially LIs) to return." I can understand thinking it's a logistical nightmare, but some people are being downright vindictive. There's nothing unfair about everyone (except Tali and Garrus) getting two games.


Can I just completely agree with everything you wrote there? Image IPB


Can I too? :o

They're biased by hate. That's all.

I'm with these guys.

I completely sympathize with the people who saw a couple of their favorite characters relegated to seemingly simple cameos, but we should NOT be looking to do the same in Mass Effect 2 simply to be "fair."

The only critieria on which the return of a squadmate should return is this: Are they important enough to the current storyline to justify a position on your squad.  It should have nothing to do with personal bias or bitterness over a decision you didn't agree with.

I was also disappointed that Wrex, Liara and Ashley/Kaiden were unrecruitable, but I understood why Bioware did it; they were completely irrelevant to the suicide mission.


This is kind of what I'm talking about concerning lack of sympathy. 

To be fair, no character was really relevant to the suicide mission except Miranda and Jacob, because they worked for Cerberus.  Garrus, Tali, Thane, Zaeed, Samara, and Grunt were no more or less relevant to the mission than the ommitted ME1 characters.  I might give you Legion and Mordin as relevant (though you don't even need to activate Legion), but they were easily replacable.

#111
MassAffected

MassAffected
  • Members
  • 1 716 messages

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

To be fair that person finds his way into any anti-ME 2 thread, I bet I could post a thread detailing how the colors were screwed up in ME 2 compared to ME 1 and he would be on my side.


Image IPBImage IPBImage IPB

Indeed!

#112
MassAffected

MassAffected
  • Members
  • 1 716 messages

Yeled wrote...

JeanLuc761 wrote...

Knoll Argonar wrote...

MassAffected wrote...

jtav wrote...

Can I just say how tired I am of the attitude of "Because I didn't get to recruit Ash/Kaidan?Liara in ME2, it would be unfair for any of the ME2 cast (especially LIs) to return." I can understand thinking it's a logistical nightmare, but some people are being downright vindictive. There's nothing unfair about everyone (except Tali and Garrus) getting two games.


Can I just completely agree with everything you wrote there? Image IPB


Can I too? :o

They're biased by hate. That's all.

I'm with these guys.

I completely sympathize with the people who saw a couple of their favorite characters relegated to seemingly simple cameos, but we should NOT be looking to do the same in Mass Effect 2 simply to be "fair."

The only critieria on which the return of a squadmate should return is this: Are they important enough to the current storyline to justify a position on your squad.  It should have nothing to do with personal bias or bitterness over a decision you didn't agree with.

I was also disappointed that Wrex, Liara and Ashley/Kaiden were unrecruitable, but I understood why Bioware did it; they were completely irrelevant to the suicide mission.


This is kind of what I'm talking about concerning lack of sympathy. 

To be fair, no character was really relevant to the suicide mission except Miranda and Jacob, because they worked for Cerberus.  Garrus, Tali, Thane, Zaeed, Samara, and Grunt were no more or less relevant to the mission than the ommitted ME1 characters.  I might give you Legion and Mordin as relevant (though you don't even need to activate Legion), but they were easily replacable.


How exactly is that a lack of sympathy?

Would we be more sympathetic if we said "you're right ME2 was ****!!" because thats what it sounds like you want.

Modifié par MassAffected, 10 mars 2010 - 07:10 .


#113
Knoll Argonar

Knoll Argonar
  • Members
  • 624 messages

Barquiel wrote...

Knoll Argonar wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

I agree...disappointed

ME2 squad: I would miss Miranda and Samara in ME3
the rest? I couldn't care less


So?

Bioware doesn't make games only for you =/ Some people like me and (I Think) MassAffected want/hope to see them again in ME3 as squaddies.


and?

- ME2 squadmates return: fine (I already killed the characters that annoyed me)
- ME2 squadmates don't return: why not (I wouldn't miss most of them)


So?

Bioware doesn't make games only for you =/ Some people like
me and (I Think) MassAffected want/hope to see them again in ME3 as
squaddies.

As I said: no ME4.

#114
JeanLuc761

JeanLuc761
  • Members
  • 6 480 messages

MassAffected wrote...
How exactly is that a lack of sympathy?

Would we be more sympathetic if we said "you're right ME2 was ****!!" because thats what it sounds like you want.

I'm kinda getting that vibe too <_<

Think about it this way though:

Ashley/Kaiden were busy with the Alliance, so Mass Effect 2 gave you Zaeed and/orJacob as a replacement. 
Liara was busy with the Shadow Broker, so Mass Effect 2 gave you Samara as a replacement.
Wrex was busy with uniting the Krogan, so Mass Effect 2 gave you Grunt as a replacement.

What's interesting to note is that ALL of the "replacements" I just mentioned could very easily disappear in Mass Effect 3 to make room for the return of the Mass Effect 1 cast.

#115
Yeled

Yeled
  • Members
  • 784 messages

MassAffected wrote...

Yeled wrote...

Knoll Argonar wrote...

MassAffected wrote...

jtav wrote...

Can I just say how tired I am of the attitude of "Because I didn't get to recruit Ash/Kaidan?Liara in ME2, it would be unfair for any of the ME2 cast (especially LIs) to return." I can understand thinking it's a logistical nightmare, but some people are being downright vindictive. There's nothing unfair about everyone (except Tali and Garrus) getting two games.


Can I just completely agree with everything you wrote there? Image IPB


Can I too? :o

They're biased by hate. That's all.


I think some of that is generated by the lack of sympathy a lot of people show them, as well as the way people seem to ignore what happened in the past when thinking about ME2 characters in ME3.  Its annoying to be told, oh yeah, screw Liara, she was handled properly when no fan of Tali or Garrus or Miranda or Thane would accept the same thing for their favorite character.


Thats funny, I've been posting in the Liara support thread when I am very clearly pro Miranda. Every time there is a returning squad discussion I make sure to stress the importance of all the surviving ME1 and ME2 cast coming back. I think that a lot of folks stop showing sympathy because the first thing people like Nozy do is come into a thread and rage/attack at anything and everything. Hard to feel sorry for folks like that.


I know you post there, but you represent a minority in this regard.  Most people who discuss the return of ME2 characters say things like, "ME2 was a squad building game and it wouldn't make sense to not bring the characters back in ME3."

Well, yeah, that's true, except it didn't make a lot of sense to not bring most ME1 squad members back for ME2, either, except as a contrived plot devise to introduce new characters for ME2.  To me ME2 felt like Empire Strikes Back without Han or Leia.  It would be Luke's story, but most of the cast around Luke would be new and that would feel a lot more empty.

I would like to see more people realize that what they want is the exact same thing ME1 squadie fans wanted but didn't get (except for Tali and Garrus), and that there is no reason their want is more justified story wise than what the ME1 squadmates wanted but didn't get.  And I'd like to see people who advocate the return of the ME2 squadmates in ME3 advocate for the return of the ME1 squadmates as well.

Its not a question of fairness, but rather of context and understanding that we've already been through this once.  I hope history doesn't repeat itself, but I wouldn't be surprised if it did.  That's not from spite, but from experience.

#116
Nozybidaj

Nozybidaj
  • Members
  • 3 487 messages

JeanLuc761 wrote...

Nozybidaj wrote...

JeanLuc761 wrote...

I fully understand where you're coming from, but I honestly think the Ashley/Kaiden and Liara situations were handled properly. 


Then we all agree.  Cameos for the ME2 crew in ME3.

Forgive me, but are you really THAT bitter about losing Liara in Mass Effect 2?  :pinched:


I'm just saying if we all agree that these cameos were such great ways to include previous characters and that they were handled so well and done with such great care I would be remiss to try and deprieve fans of the ME2 crew of the same great opportunity to have such a stellar role and appearance in ME3 that the ME1 crew got in ME2.  I would be downright ashamed if you all were to miss out on such a great chance for character development and involvement of your favorite characters in the next game.

#117
MassAffected

MassAffected
  • Members
  • 1 716 messages

JeanLuc761 wrote...

MassAffected wrote...
How exactly is that a lack of sympathy?

Would we be more sympathetic if we said "you're right ME2 was ****!!" because thats what it sounds like you want.

I'm kinda getting that vibe too <_<

Think about it this way though:

Ashley/Kaiden were busy with the Alliance, so Mass Effect 2 gave you Zaeed and/orJacob as a replacement. 
Liara was busy with the Shadow Broker, so Mass Effect 2 gave you Samara as a replacement.
Wrex was busy with uniting the Krogan, so Mass Effect 2 gave you Grunt as a replacement.

What's interesting to note is that ALL of the "replacements" I just mentioned could very easily disappear in Mass Effect 3 to make room for the return of the Mass Effect 1 cast.


This is what I've been shouting ever since I started posting here...but as always the vocal minority yells louder and louder and drowns out the more sensible folks.

#118
JeanLuc761

JeanLuc761
  • Members
  • 6 480 messages

Nozybidaj wrote...

JeanLuc761 wrote...
Forgive me, but are you really THAT bitter about losing Liara in Mass Effect 2?  :pinched:


I'm just saying if we all agree that these cameos were such great ways to include previous characters and that they were handled so well and done with such great care I would be remiss to try and deprieve fans of the ME2 crew of the same great opportunity to have such a stellar role and appearance in ME3 that the ME1 crew got in ME2.  I would be downright ashamed if you all were to miss out on such a great chance for character development and involvement of your favorite characters in the next game.

Thank you for answering my question.

#119
Knoll Argonar

Knoll Argonar
  • Members
  • 624 messages

Yeled wrote...

MassAffected wrote...

Yeled wrote...

Knoll Argonar wrote...

MassAffected wrote...

jtav wrote...

Can I just say how tired I am of the attitude of "Because I didn't get to recruit Ash/Kaidan?Liara in ME2, it would be unfair for any of the ME2 cast (especially LIs) to return." I can understand thinking it's a logistical nightmare, but some people are being downright vindictive. There's nothing unfair about everyone (except Tali and Garrus) getting two games.


Can I just completely agree with everything you wrote there? Image IPB


Can I too? :o

They're biased by hate. That's all.


I think some of that is generated by the lack of sympathy a lot of people show them, as well as the way people seem to ignore what happened in the past when thinking about ME2 characters in ME3.  Its annoying to be told, oh yeah, screw Liara, she was handled properly when no fan of Tali or Garrus or Miranda or Thane would accept the same thing for their favorite character.


Thats funny, I've been posting in the Liara support thread when I am very clearly pro Miranda. Every time there is a returning squad discussion I make sure to stress the importance of all the surviving ME1 and ME2 cast coming back. I think that a lot of folks stop showing sympathy because the first thing people like Nozy do is come into a thread and rage/attack at anything and everything. Hard to feel sorry for folks like that.


I know you post there, but you represent a minority in this regard.  Most people who discuss the return of ME2 characters say things like, "ME2 was a squad building game and it wouldn't make sense to not bring the characters back in ME3."

Well, yeah, that's true, except it didn't make a lot of sense to not bring most ME1 squad members back for ME2, either, except as a contrived plot devise to introduce new characters for ME2.  To me ME2 felt like Empire Strikes Back without Han or Leia.  It would be Luke's story, but most of the cast around Luke would be new and that would feel a lot more empty.

I would like to see more people realize that what they want is the exact same thing ME1 squadie fans wanted but didn't get (except for Tali and Garrus), and that there is no reason their want is more justified story wise than what the ME1 squadmates wanted but didn't get.  And I'd like to see people who advocate the return of the ME2 squadmates in ME3 advocate for the return of the ME1 squadmates as well.

Its not a question of fairness, but rather of context and understanding that we've already been through this once.  I hope history doesn't repeat itself, but I wouldn't be surprised if it did.  That's not from spite, but from experience.


But aren't ME1 character (except Wrex) already CONFIRMED as squaddies in ME3?

I though that was the reason they were cameos in ME2 O_O

#120
Yeled

Yeled
  • Members
  • 784 messages

MassAffected wrote...

Yeled wrote...

JeanLuc761 wrote...

I was also disappointed that Wrex, Liara and Ashley/Kaiden were unrecruitable, but I understood why Bioware did it; they were completely irrelevant to the suicide mission.


This is kind of what I'm talking about concerning lack of sympathy. 

To be fair, no character was really relevant to the suicide mission except Miranda and Jacob, because they worked for Cerberus.  Garrus, Tali, Thane, Zaeed, Samara, and Grunt were no more or less relevant to the mission than the ommitted ME1 characters.  I might give you Legion and Mordin as relevant (though you don't even need to activate Legion), but they were easily replacable.


How exactly is that a lack of sympathy?

Would we be more sympathetic if we said "you're right ME2 was ****!!" because thats what it sounds like you want.


No, that's not what I want.  I actually thought ME2 was good, it just didn't resonate with me like it could have.

My point is that the bias goes both ways.  According to JeanLuc ME1 characters were irrelevant to the suicide mission and that justifies their ommission.  I'm trying to point out that they weren't irrelevant to shepard (at least not a lot of people's), and that alone justifies their inclusion.  Meanwhile many ME2 characters were just as irrelevant to the story, but people don't see that because they liked them.

As for replacements for ME1 characters, just ask yourself if you'd be ok with a Tali or Miranda or Garrus replacement and see how well that sits.

Its bias on both sides, and its not fair to accuse one side of it when the other side is equally bad.

#121
KainrycKarr

KainrycKarr
  • Members
  • 4 819 messages
Circular argument is circular. Both sides have pros and cons. It all boils down to how Bioware will choose to handle it. Period.

#122
MassAffected

MassAffected
  • Members
  • 1 716 messages

Nozybidaj wrote...

JeanLuc761 wrote...

Nozybidaj wrote...

JeanLuc761 wrote...

I fully understand where you're coming from, but I honestly think the Ashley/Kaiden and Liara situations were handled properly. 


Then we all agree.  Cameos for the ME2 crew in ME3.

Forgive me, but are you really THAT bitter about losing Liara in Mass Effect 2?  :pinched:


I'm just saying if we all agree that these cameos were such great ways to include previous characters and that they were handled so well and done with such great care I would be remiss to try and deprieve fans of the ME2 crew of the same great opportunity to have such a stellar role and appearance in ME3 that the ME1 crew got in ME2.  I would be downright ashamed if you all were to miss out on such a great chance for character development and involvement of your favorite characters in the next game.


Awww did someone not get their hug this morning? I've never seen you post anything nice, its always dripping with venom.

Modifié par MassAffected, 10 mars 2010 - 07:22 .


#123
Barquiel

Barquiel
  • Members
  • 5 848 messages

Knoll Argonar wrote...

Bioware doesn't make games only for you =/


I know. What's your point?

You want all the ME2 squadmates to return in ME3
I don't really care

#124
Yeled

Yeled
  • Members
  • 784 messages

Knoll Argonar wrote...

But aren't ME1 character (except Wrex) already CONFIRMED as squaddies in ME3?

I though that was the reason they were cameos in ME2 O_O


No, we were told they weren't included so they would be alive for ME3.  That implies they have a role to play, but it could just be a cameo again.  My guess is they want them alive so they can do something with the people who cheated on their ME1 LI.  It could be more than that, but it might also only be that.

#125
Ocelot83

Ocelot83
  • Members
  • 251 messages
I don't want to copy the whole message here, so I'll just post the link:

http://social.biowar...05/index/918247