312 réponses à ce sujet

[Knoll Argonar]

To be fair, I understood that Hudson said that LI wouldn't be squaddies in ME2 but they would play an important role (LI one) during ME TRILOGY, not ME2 specifically =/



And I find your reasoning inacurate, but whatever.

[Yeled]

Knoll Argonar wrote...

To be fair, I understood that Hudson said that LI wouldn't be squaddies in ME2 but they would play an important role (LI one) during ME TRILOGY, not ME2 specifically =/

And I find your reasoning inacurate, but whatever.

Well, the hole in the reasoning is that BW wanted to guarantee they were available, whereas the ME2 characters are not guaranteed to survive.  Doesn't mean that some of them couldn't survive and appear if they did.

Then again, I don't exactly buy the important role angle at this point either.

[jlb524]

Yeled wrote...

I think its less directed at the "you shouldn't either" angle than you think.  Comments like that are actually directed at Bioware.  The reasoning goes like this:

1. Casey Hudson tells us that the ME1 LIs won't be squadmates but will have important roles in ME2.
2. The reason he gives is that this is the ME1 LIs stories are so important that they need to be around for ME3 and they want to protect the LIs.  If they were in ME2 they couldn't be sure of surviving to ME3.
3. If the ME2 characters survive into ME3, then some of the justification for not including them as squadmates in ME2 becomes a load of bull.
4.  In order that the reason is not a load of bull, ME2 squadmates shouldn't be in ME3.

Its not about your suffering, but rather about not wanting Bioware's excuse to turn out to be a load of bull that were were fed as part of their marketing effort.  Now, I have no doubt that this was a load of bull, quite frankly.  And I don't exactly hold to this line of reasoning.  But I see the point.

This is a very good point.  I'm ambivalent to the returning of ME2 squad mates in ME1 except it would make the 'excuse' for why ME1 squad mates weren't in ME2 a load of crap.   If they go back on this promise, who's to say they're not going to go back on others?  Maybe the ME1 crew will get another crappy cameo in ME3?

I want a damn good reason for having to wait four years to see the continuation of my favorite characters' stories.  This seemed like a fair reason at the time and pacified me, but now if they go back on it.....not good.

[ErWags]

Yeled wrote...

JeanLuc761 wrote...

While true, it's also important to remember the context of the story.  Ashley/Kaiden, Liara and Wrex were all extremely busy in Mass Effect 2 which is why they couldn't join your squad.  Some people may argue "Well, then you could say that the Mass Effect 2 characters will be busy in ME3 so they'll be gone too!" but let's look at what we've left off with.

Likely Unjustifiable
Grunt:  Shepard is Grunt's battlemaster and has literally no reason at all to leave the Normandy.
Garrus:  Shepard's best friend/love interest who has proven himself to be the galaxy's top rogue.  He also hates C-sec, so he has no justification to leave.
Tali:  Tali'Zorah vas Normandy is part of the ship now.  Her only possible justification for leaving would be to rally the Quarians, but given she could have been exiled in Mass Effect 2, she's almost guaranteed to be a squadmate.
Mordin:  Extremely important to the mission success (research upgrades), and enjoys the Normandy lab.
Miranda:  Quit Cerberus at the end of Mass Effect 2 and will likely need Shepard to protect herself and her family.

Could be Justifiable
Jacob:  There really isn't much to his character though he may follow suit with Miranda.  I'm really not sure with him.
Thane:  Depending on how much time passes, Thane could be dead, or he could be cured.  Way too many variables with him.
Legion: Has a decent chance of leaving to rally the Geth fleet against the Reapers, but his fascination with Shepard makes me question that.
Samara:  As a Justicar, she only swore an oath to Shepard for the suicide mission.  Despite this, she says "If you call for me, I'll come." 
Jack: She's a wild cannon to be sure, but she may have developed a strong appreciation for genuine human contact while serving on the Normandy.


Now then, I could be COMPLETELY wrong here and Bioware could pull something at the start of Mass Effect 3 that breaks your squad apart again but I'm just going off what we know so far.

Yeah, but its easy to justify any of them leaving.  When we left off ME1, you would have never imagined a justifiable reason to have Liara, Ash, Kaiden, Wrex, or Garrus leave.  Tali was the only one who it made perfect sense for her to take off.  They made something up to get rid of the rest of them, but you couldn't see it coming.

And anyway, I can justify any of your unjustifiable characters.  Take Grunt:  Gets called back to fight for his tribe.  Or Mordin:  Needed to work on some Genphage problem.  Or Tali:  Geth and Quarians go to war.

Its not difficult.

A reason was created.. Shepard was dead being rebuild for 2 years and everybody moved on. 
I think it would be silly to have the squad broken up again, considering so much of ME2 was about building up the best team ever. I think in ME3 the only people you should have to recuit should be ashely and Liara.

[Nozybidaj]

jlb524 wrote...

I want a damn good reason for having to wait four years to see the continuation of my favorite characters' stories.  This seemed like a fair reason at the time and pacified me, but now if they go back on it.....not good.

Some what agreed.  It never actually pacified me. The point still stands though, if members of the ME2 crew can return in ME3 what was the point of keeping the ME1 crew out of ME2?

Are the folks saying the ME2 crew should return trying to tell us BW simply lied to us?  That Casey was being deliberately misleading with his statements?

[Knoll Argonar]

Yeled wrote...

Knoll Argonar wrote...

To be fair, I understood that Hudson said that LI wouldn't be squaddies in ME2 but they would play an important role (LI one) during ME TRILOGY, not ME2 specifically =/

And I find your reasoning inacurate, but whatever.

Well, the hole in the reasoning is that BW wanted to guarantee they were available, whereas the ME2 characters are not guaranteed to survive.  Doesn't mean that some of them couldn't survive and appear if they did.

Then again, I don't exactly buy the important role angle at this point either.

Man, for us fan's sake, let's hope all your reasoning and pessimistic thoughts (realistic, or pragmatic, maybe) get owned by Bioware on ME3. The more known squaddies the better =')

I must say I am quite confident I'll be pleased. Naive, maybe, but I'm fine with it.

[jlb524]

Nozybidaj wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

I want a damn good reason for having to wait four years to see the continuation of my favorite characters' stories.  This seemed like a fair reason at the time and pacified me, but now if they go back on it.....not good.

Some what agreed.  It never actually pacified me. The point still stands though, if members of the ME2 crew can return in ME3 what was the point of keeping the ME1 crew out of ME2?

Are the folks saying the ME2 crew should return trying to tell us BW simply lied to us?  That Casey was being deliberately misleading with his statements?

I was pacified at the time, but that could be changing here quick if that excuse turns into bull.

It seems like we were being misled so we'd get our hopes up and just buy ME2.  That's business I guess.

[Yeled]

Knoll Argonar wrote...

Yeled wrote...

Knoll Argonar wrote...

To be fair, I understood that Hudson said that LI wouldn't be squaddies in ME2 but they would play an important role (LI one) during ME TRILOGY, not ME2 specifically =/

And I find your reasoning inacurate, but whatever.

Well, the hole in the reasoning is that BW wanted to guarantee they were available, whereas the ME2 characters are not guaranteed to survive.  Doesn't mean that some of them couldn't survive and appear if they did.

Then again, I don't exactly buy the important role angle at this point either.

Man, for us fan's sake, let's hope all your reasoning and pessimistic thoughts (realistic, or pragmatic, maybe) get owned by Bioware on ME3. The more known squaddies the better =')

I must say I am quite confident I'll be pleased. Naive, maybe, but I'm fine with it.

I hope my pessimistic/pragmatic thoughts get owned too, believe me!  I held Bioware in such high regard, and ME2 was the first time I was truly disappointed by them.  Honestly I know ME2 is a good game, and the gameplay was certainly improved over ME1.  But it was ruined because, for the first time in a BW game, I felt disinterested.  I couldn't immerse myself in the story or the characters, and I couldn't get emotionally attached to what was happening.

Its not because the new characters are meh.  Some are quite good.  I actually like Jack and Miranda and Garrus and Tali.  Mordin was extremely amusing.  Legion was a nice touch.  But my Shep's story included Ash and Kaiden (who is dead in my canon shep's universe) and especially Liara.  Without the Han and Leia of my game I felt detached from the story itself.

I hope it doesn't happen again....for any of us.

[Nozybidaj]

So really we just argued back and forth for 8 pages just to come to the conclusion that BW lied to us? I suppose I can accept that as a conclusion, though it certainly doesn't make me feel any better about the crappy ME1 cameos in ME2.

[Yeled]

Nozybidaj wrote...

So really we just argued back and forth for 8 pages just to come to the conclusion that BW lied to us? I suppose I can accept that as a conclusion, though it certainly doesn't make me feel any better about the crappy ME1 cameos in ME2.

Honestly I think Casey Hudson overstated BW's position.  At the time he probably thought that was right.  I just doubt its still true...not entirely so anyway.

[jlb524]

Yeled wrote...

I hope my pessimistic/pragmatic thoughts get owned too, believe me!  I held Bioware in such high regard, and ME2 was the first time I was truly disappointed by them.  Honestly I know ME2 is a good game, and the gameplay was certainly improved over ME1.  But it was ruined because, for the first time in a BW game, I felt disinterested.  I couldn't immerse myself in the story or the characters, and I couldn't get emotionally attached to what was happening.

Its not because the new characters are meh.  Some are quite good.  I actually like Jack and Miranda and Garrus and Tali.  Mordin was extremely amusing.  Legion was a nice touch.  But my Shep's story included Ash and Kaiden (who is dead in my canon shep's universe) and especially Liara.  Without the Han and Leia of my game I felt detached from the story itself.

This post X 10!

@Nozy

Yep, our chains were yanked by BW.  That's the big conclusion to this debate.

[epoch_]

Nozybidaj wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

I want a damn good reason for having to wait four years to see the continuation of my favorite characters' stories.  This seemed like a fair reason at the time and pacified me, but now if they go back on it.....not good.

Some what agreed.  It never actually pacified me. The point still stands though, if members of the ME2 crew can return in ME3 what was the point of keeping the ME1 crew out of ME2?

Are the folks saying the ME2 crew should return trying to tell us BW simply lied to us?  That Casey was being deliberately misleading with his statements?

The way I see it is, that ME2 was designed around characters primarily and gaining them and their loyalty through missions. These missions were the bulk of ME2 content. So designing missions for potentially dead squad mates ash/kaidan and wrex would have been an enormous waste of time for not very much gained. So those guys were out of the question from the start and I feel that Liara was also not included to be fair to the fans of Ashley/Kaidan. People would have been pissed if one love interest from the last game got to make it into the second, but not theirs. So she basically got held back.

Also using this reasoning, I suspect that since the bulk (any?) of Me3 will not be about gaining a squad and their loyalty, then everyone will be back potentially, and some of them will be mutually exclusive with each others as to not overwhelm the player with team mates.

Just my 25 cents worth.

[Nozybidaj]

jlb524 wrote...


This post X 10!

@Nozy

Yep, our chains were yanked by BW.  That's the big conclusion to this debate.

Hrm, well so be it.  Maybe I was still giving BW too much credit thinking that at the very least they wouldn't flat out lie to us.  Live and learn I suppose.

[epoch_]

Yeled wrote...

I hope my pessimistic/pragmatic thoughts get owned too, believe me!  I held Bioware in such high regard, and ME2 was the first time I was truly disappointed by them.  Honestly I know ME2 is a good game, and the gameplay was certainly improved over ME1.  But it was ruined because, for the first time in a BW game, I felt disinterested.  I couldn't immerse myself in the story or the characters, and I couldn't get emotionally attached to what was happening.

Its not because the new characters are meh.  Some are quite good.  I actually like Jack and Miranda and Garrus and Tali.  Mordin was extremely amusing.  Legion was a nice touch.  But my Shep's story included Ash and Kaiden (who is dead in my canon shep's universe) and especially Liara.  Without the Han and Leia of my game I felt detached from the story itself.

I hope it doesn't happen again....for any of us.

add something here too, I feel that when they (ash/kaidan/liara) do finally join us again for me3, the experiences we had with ME2 with them will make them all the better characters for ME3. Especially ash/kaidan. The emotional reward I'm planning on getting from them after staying true to them even after I took their verbal beating, should be substantial.

Not a huge Liara fan, but I imagine the feeling you'll have when liara is back as her old self once she's done dealing with the shadowbroker, will be grand as well.

I think the ME1 love interests are in this together.

Modifié par epoch_, 10 mars 2010 - 09:06 .

[Yeled]

epoch_ wrote...

Nozybidaj wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

I want a damn good reason for having to wait four years to see the continuation of my favorite characters' stories.  This seemed like a fair reason at the time and pacified me, but now if they go back on it.....not good.

Some what agreed.  It never actually pacified me. The point still stands though, if members of the ME2 crew can return in ME3 what was the point of keeping the ME1 crew out of ME2?

Are the folks saying the ME2 crew should return trying to tell us BW simply lied to us?  That Casey was being deliberately misleading with his statements?

The way I see it is, that ME2 was designed around characters primarily and gaining them and their loyalty through missions. These missions were the bulk of ME2 content. So designing missions for potentially dead squad mates ash/kaidan and wrex would have been an enormous waste of time for not very much gained. So those guys were out of the question from the start and I feel that Liara was also not included to be fair to the fans of Ashley/Kaidan. People would have been pissed if one love interest from the last game got to make it into the second, but not theirs. So she basically got held back.

Also using this reasoning, I suspect that since the bulk (any?) of Me3 will not be about gaining a squad and their loyalty, then everyone will be back potentially, and some of them will be mutually exclusive with each others as to not overwhelm the player with team mates.

Just my 25 cents worth.

I honestly agree with Jlb that we'll likely see the ME1 characters, a select group of ME2 characters, and a few new characters.  And frankly that's a best case scenario for me anyway, so I hope its not just wishful thinking on my part.

Modifié par Yeled, 10 mars 2010 - 09:12 .

[Nozybidaj]

jlb524 wrote...

I want a damn good reason for having to wait four years to see the continuation of my favorite characters' stories.

Just wanted to see this repeated.

[DarthRevan4life]

1st time poster but wanted to share my thoughts. I believe BW did the right thing with how they handled the LI's from ME1. As they stated this was a suicide mission, would you really want your LI to go on a suicide mission, because if your Shep really loved his LI then he'd want to protect them and wouldn't want them to take part on this mission. Let's say Kaiden/Ashley wasn't your LI, it's been two years since Sheps been gone. Now take into account all Cerberus did in ME1, with what happened to Admiral Kahoku, why would they trust them now? Plus they're in the Alliance, not sure if any of you are in the military but I am and you don't just leave to join a known enemy.



Wrex, why would he wait two years for you to come back when his clan gained notoriety after he helped defeat Saren. Sure in ME1 he didn't really care but at that point why should he? Now his clan is formidable and he has an opportunity to finally unite the Krogan, makes sense for him to stay and attempt to end all the fighting. Now it makes sense for Wrex to come back in ME3 because like himself Grunt has killed a Thresher Maw, is a pure Krogan and obviously accomplished a lot along with Shep and he would have a purpose to leave; what better to unite all Krogan againt the greatest threat to face the galaxy?



Liara spent two years saving Shep, why would she go on a suicide mission when she could possibly die and not be able to get revenge for Shep and her friend...that would mean everything she's been doing for two years would be for nothing if she died. Garrus had no reason not to be in ME2 because all he was doing was going up against criminals. Tali is the same, just working with her father.



If anyone wouldnt be part of ME3 it would be Tali (sorry Tali fans) because as she stated she could become an admiral in place of her father to possibly end the war with the Geth. Well that's my two cents.

[TOBY FLENDERSON]

This a great idea, especially if they make each and every character and decision have an effect on the final ending. here are a few examples:



Wrex leading an army of Krogan against reaper forces, decimating them. less for Shep to deal with.

Grunt becoming head of the blood pack and using them to fight the reapers.

Quarian/geth infiltration teams being lead by Tali, Kal, and legion that end up killing whole reapers.

Kaiden/Ashley leading a contingent of marines in defense of a strategic position.

Zaeed bring the might of the Blue suns to defend the citadel.

Thane/Kolyat assassinating a reaper general.

Mordin and Kirrahe using the STG to repurpose reaper tech

TIM, Miranda, and Jacob using Ceberus forces and ships to destroy reapers.

Jack and Samara using their botics to train a new and improved biotic army.

Anderson giving the player more soldiers and ships, Udina giving more equipment improvements during the final fight.

Liara taking over for the shadow broker and using her new resources to fight the reapers.

Doing BDTS and MEGalaxy leads to a less militant batarian government that sends aid against the reapers.

The Rachni lending ships and soldiers against the reapers, hopefully well see the queen fight them herself.

Garrus teaching c-sec better combat tactics for defending the citadela dn becoming a spectre himself.

[dragonic9100]

they can't make 3 different story lines and the people who are new to ME cant just be screwed out of major content because they don't have the option to save the council

[Yeled]

DarthRevan4life wrote...

Liara spent two years saving Shep, why would she go on a suicide mission when she could possibly die and not be able to get revenge for Shep and her friend...that would mean everything she's been doing for two years would be for nothing if she died.

I don't follow.  Isn't all her work for nothing if Shep dies?  Wasn't that the point?  To see Shep recovered and brought back because she "couldn't let [her] go"?  What's the point of all her work if Shep is back and just goes off and gets killed again?

I think you (just like BW) really have to stretch to make this line of reasoning work.  Especially compared to Tali, who actually had gone off to do important work for her father that had nothing to do with Shep.

[Nozybidaj]

Yeled wrote...

DarthRevan4life wrote...

Liara spent two years saving Shep, why would she go on a suicide mission when she could possibly die and not be able to get revenge for Shep and her friend...that would mean everything she's been doing for two years would be for nothing if she died.

I don't follow.  Isn't all her work for nothing if Shep dies?  Wasn't that the point?  To see Shep recovered and brought back because she "couldn't let [her] go"?  What's the point of all her work if Shep is back and just goes off and gets killed again?

I think you (just like BW) really have to stretch to make this line of reasoning work.  Especially compared to Tali, who actually had gone off to do important work for her father that had nothing to do with Shep.

Agreed.

[DarthRevan4life]

@ Yeled, sorry I'd quote your response but not sure how to do so in my iPhone. Personally yeah I wish Liara was in ME2 as she was my fav character in part one. I would like to believe that she would like to think Shep would live and isn't going to do die twice. Plus if Shep dies that still leaves Liara trying to find out what happened to her friend and why the SB would work with the collectors to begin with. Plus I heard all the audio files for Liara and it sounds like Shep located the SB and Liara ended up finding him so I assume she was meant to play a bigger role or that's a future DLC.

[Knoll Argonar]

Yeled wrote...

Knoll Argonar wrote...

Yeled wrote...

Knoll Argonar wrote...

To be fair, I understood that Hudson said that LI wouldn't be squaddies in ME2 but they would play an important role (LI one) during ME TRILOGY, not ME2 specifically =/

And I find your reasoning inacurate, but whatever.

Well, the hole in the reasoning is that BW wanted to guarantee they were available, whereas the ME2 characters are not guaranteed to survive.  Doesn't mean that some of them couldn't survive and appear if they did.

Then again, I don't exactly buy the important role angle at this point either.

Man, for us fan's sake, let's hope all your reasoning and pessimistic thoughts (realistic, or pragmatic, maybe) get owned by Bioware on ME3. The more known squaddies the better =')

I must say I am quite confident I'll be pleased. Naive, maybe, but I'm fine with it.

I hope my pessimistic/pragmatic thoughts get owned too, believe me!  I held Bioware in such high regard, and ME2 was the first time I was truly disappointed by them.  Honestly I know ME2 is a good game, and the gameplay was certainly improved over ME1.  But it was ruined because, for the first time in a BW game, I felt disinterested.  I couldn't immerse myself in the story or the characters, and I couldn't get emotionally attached to what was happening.

Its not because the new characters are meh.  Some are quite good.  I actually like Jack and Miranda and Garrus and Tali.  Mordin was extremely amusing.  Legion was a nice touch.  But my Shep's story included Ash and Kaiden (who is dead in my canon shep's universe) and especially Liara.  Without the Han and Leia of my game I felt detached from the story itself.

I hope it doesn't happen again....for any of us.

Bleh, it's there where we disagree.

I absolutely love ME2. More than I ever loved ME1. And that's all.

Anyway, agreed with someposter here telling some differences of concept between ME2 and what will probably be ME3.