312 réponses à ce sujet

[Girchou]

i know its a lot of work but couldnt it be don with absolutly no new PC's and just he ones who survived the suicide mission and liara and virmire survivor?





there is no way time to be stopping and resting the reapers are right there!



i also dont really care how long it takes to bring the next one out as long as its f*** long i dont care......

[epoch_]

Girchou wrote...

i know its a lot of work but couldnt it be don with absolutly no new PC's and just he ones who survived the suicide mission and liara and virmire survivor?


there is no way time to be stopping and resting the reapers are right there!

i also dont really care how long it takes to bring the next one out as long as its f*** long i dont care......

I completely agree with you. Although since its technically possible to survive the suicide mission with 2 squad mates, I think 2 new potential squad mates in ME3 would be perfect. That way, even if you have the absolute worst ME2 play through, you still have a squad of 6.

[MassAffected]

DarthRevan4life wrote...

1st time poster but wanted to share my thoughts. I believe BW did the right thing with how they handled the LI's from ME1. As they stated this was a suicide mission, would you really want your LI to go on a suicide mission, because if your Shep really loved his LI then he'd want to protect them and wouldn't want them to take part on this mission. Let's say Kaiden/Ashley wasn't your LI, it's been two years since Sheps been gone. Now take into account all Cerberus did in ME1, with what happened to Admiral Kahoku, why would they trust them now? Plus they're in the Alliance, not sure if any of you are in the military but I am and you don't just leave to join a known enemy.

Wrex, why would he wait two years for you to come back when his clan gained notoriety after he helped defeat Saren. Sure in ME1 he didn't really care but at that point why should he? Now his clan is formidable and he has an opportunity to finally unite the Krogan, makes sense for him to stay and attempt to end all the fighting. Now it makes sense for Wrex to come back in ME3 because like himself Grunt has killed a Thresher Maw, is a pure Krogan and obviously accomplished a lot along with Shep and he would have a purpose to leave; what better to unite all Krogan againt the greatest threat to face the galaxy?

Liara spent two years saving Shep, why would she go on a suicide mission when she could possibly die and not be able to get revenge for Shep and her friend...that would mean everything she's been doing for two years would be for nothing if she died. Garrus had no reason not to be in ME2 because all he was doing was going up against criminals. Tali is the same, just working with her father.

If anyone wouldnt be part of ME3 it would be Tali (sorry Tali fans) because as she stated she could become an admiral in place of her father to possibly end the war with the Geth. Well that's my two cents.

All this makes A LOT of sense, but I'm sure someone here will twist it all up and contradict you

[Knoll Argonar]

epoch_ wrote...

Girchou wrote...

i know its a lot of work but couldnt it be don with absolutly no new PC's and just he ones who survived the suicide mission and liara and virmire survivor?


there is no way time to be stopping and resting the reapers are right there!

i also dont really care how long it takes to bring the next one out as long as its f*** long i dont care......

I completely agree with you. Although since its technically possible to survive the suicide mission with 2 squad mates, I think 2 new potential squad mates in ME3 would be perfect. That way, even if you have the absolute worst ME2 play through, you still have a squad of 6.

Agreed, specially knowing that you should have balance between the "3 ways" in your squad. You may get out of techs, for example, maybe someone like Kahlee Sanders would fill that spot, not having to create a new character but developing some amazing new one.

But I do believe some characters will get "fired". For me it's hard to believe that Mordin would stay available for rocking some people out. Same for Zaeed (who is a mercenary after all. Don't get paid, you get out), and Thane and Jack (with diseases)... if you let pass some time.

I all may depend on WHEN do you start ME3. It seemed (looking at the reaper data at the end of ME2) that it will start just after that moment, but noone really knows.

But then again, if we want a squad of 6, you have to keep everyone from ME2 so you make sure none of those "people with problems" could be the only ones that survived in your playthrough.

Hmmmmm..... the problem is that we're focusing in something that may happen just for those who want to.

[jlb524]

MassAffected wrote...

DarthRevan4life wrote...

1st time poster but wanted to share my thoughts. I believe BW did the right thing with how they handled the LI's from ME1. As they stated this was a suicide mission, would you really want your LI to go on a suicide mission, because if your Shep really loved his LI then he'd want to protect them and wouldn't want them to take part on this mission. Let's say Kaiden/Ashley wasn't your LI, it's been two years since Sheps been gone. Now take into account all Cerberus did in ME1, with what happened to Admiral Kahoku, why would they trust them now? Plus they're in the Alliance, not sure if any of you are in the military but I am and you don't just leave to join a known enemy.

Wrex, why would he wait two years for you to come back when his clan gained notoriety after he helped defeat Saren. Sure in ME1 he didn't really care but at that point why should he? Now his clan is formidable and he has an opportunity to finally unite the Krogan, makes sense for him to stay and attempt to end all the fighting. Now it makes sense for Wrex to come back in ME3 because like himself Grunt has killed a Thresher Maw, is a pure Krogan and obviously accomplished a lot along with Shep and he would have a purpose to leave; what better to unite all Krogan againt the greatest threat to face the galaxy?

Liara spent two years saving Shep, why would she go on a suicide mission when she could possibly die and not be able to get revenge for Shep and her friend...that would mean everything she's been doing for two years would be for nothing if she died. Garrus had no reason not to be in ME2 because all he was doing was going up against criminals. Tali is the same, just working with her father.

If anyone wouldnt be part of ME3 it would be Tali (sorry Tali fans) because as she stated she could become an admiral in place of her father to possibly end the war with the Geth. Well that's my two cents.

All this makes A LOT of sense, but I'm sure someone here will twist it all up and contradict you

It only makes sense if you assume BW absolutely had to go the Shepard dies/suicide mission route for ME2.  They could have gone many, many other ways with the story and these ways could have included Liara, Wrex, Ashley, and Kaidan.  To me, it seems like the whole plot of ME2 (which is weak IMO) just revolves around recruiting new squad mates (oh, you get to blow up a bad guy's base at the end...big deal).

It feels like the old crew was pushed aside for some unjustified reason to bring in a new crew at the expense of the main plot.

Modifié par jlb524, 10 mars 2010 - 10:10 .

[epoch_]

As long as all possible love interests are potentially recruitable, I'll be happy squad mate wise. I'd like for them all to be back, but if they want to cut out a couple non LI, then Im confident that BioWare can replace them with other people/aliens just as good.



They've always seemed to excel at character creation.

[jlb524]

epoch_ wrote...

They've always seemed to excel at character creation.

Yeah, they're good at creating characters people love and then dropping them for new ones in the sequels/expansions.   They need to get better at continuing characters throughout a series.

[jtav]

Observation: 17/22 of the ME2 missions were spent either recruiting or gaining the loyalty of your squad. To throw them all out would make the game a complete waste of time.

[epoch_]

jtav wrote...

Observation: 17/22 of the ME2 missions were spent either recruiting or gaining the loyalty of your squad. To throw them all out would make the game a complete waste of time.

I've used this logic a lot when I'm arguing with myself about it too. I then say that if they bring back the ME2 love interests, then they sure as hell are going to bring back all the ME1 love interests.

And them I'm content with choosing ashley as my personal canon li, until I start to argue with myself again.



I'm not insane, I swear

[MassAffected]

jlb524 wrote...

MassAffected wrote...

DarthRevan4life wrote...

1st time poster but wanted to share my thoughts. I believe BW did the right thing with how they handled the LI's from ME1. As they stated this was a suicide mission, would you really want your LI to go on a suicide mission, because if your Shep really loved his LI then he'd want to protect them and wouldn't want them to take part on this mission. Let's say Kaiden/Ashley wasn't your LI, it's been two years since Sheps been gone. Now take into account all Cerberus did in ME1, with what happened to Admiral Kahoku, why would they trust them now? Plus they're in the Alliance, not sure if any of you are in the military but I am and you don't just leave to join a known enemy.

Wrex, why would he wait two years for you to come back when his clan gained notoriety after he helped defeat Saren. Sure in ME1 he didn't really care but at that point why should he? Now his clan is formidable and he has an opportunity to finally unite the Krogan, makes sense for him to stay and attempt to end all the fighting. Now it makes sense for Wrex to come back in ME3 because like himself Grunt has killed a Thresher Maw, is a pure Krogan and obviously accomplished a lot along with Shep and he would have a purpose to leave; what better to unite all Krogan againt the greatest threat to face the galaxy?

Liara spent two years saving Shep, why would she go on a suicide mission when she could possibly die and not be able to get revenge for Shep and her friend...that would mean everything she's been doing for two years would be for nothing if she died. Garrus had no reason not to be in ME2 because all he was doing was going up against criminals. Tali is the same, just working with her father.

If anyone wouldnt be part of ME3 it would be Tali (sorry Tali fans) because as she stated she could become an admiral in place of her father to possibly end the war with the Geth. Well that's my two cents.

All this makes A LOT of sense, but I'm sure someone here will twist it all up and contradict you

It only makes sense if you assume BW absolutely had to go the Shepard dies/suicide mission route for ME2.  They could have gone many, many other ways with the story and these ways could have included Liara, Wrex, Ashley, and Kaidan.  To me, it seems like the whole plot of ME2 (which is weak IMO) just revolves around recruiting new squad mates (oh, you get to blow up a bad guy's base at the end...big deal).

It feels like the old crew was pushed aside for some unjustified reason to bring in a new crew at the expense of the main plot.

*sigh* This is the biggest thing I see brought up...they could have done this they could have done that...guess what. They DIDN'T. At the end of the day it is BioWare's story to tell and in my opinion they tell it beautifully. The icing on the cake is letting us make certain choices that enrich that story. Everyone acts so entitled and feels so damn betrayed over nothing. We can cry about what they could have done and keep arguing or we can deal with it and get together in the hope that things will work out to OUR MUTUAL benefit.

Modifié par MassAffected, 10 mars 2010 - 10:41 .

[DarthRevan4life]

I notice a lot of people stating "well if this wasn't a suicide mission then such and such should be in the game". But the game was a suicide mission so there really is no "what if" scenario. I also don't believe there will be any if very few new squad members solely because I don't see there being any loyalty missions in ME3. The sole purpose of those were to ensure your squad had no reservations in going into a potential suicide mission. You don't go on a mission like that with a squad who has outside concerns. This leads me to believe certain squad members from ME1 and ME2 will be in the third game.



Sure there will be some new squad members but I think that's only going to happen to please new fans who pick up the third game without having playing the first and second.

[jlb524]

MassAffected wrote...

*sigh* This is the biggest thing I see brought up...they could have done this they could have done that...guess what. They DIDN'T. At the end of the day it is BioWare's story to tell and in my opinion they tell it beautifully. The icing on the cake is letting us make certain choices that enrich that story. Everyone acts so entitled and feels so damn betrayed over nothing. We can cry about what they could have done and keep arguing or we can deal with it and get together in the hope that things will work out to OUR mutual benefit.

I'm well aware that's how they did things and I don't like it but that's not my point.  I brought it up b/c people tend to use the ME2 story-line to explain why it 'makes sense' that the ME1 characters weren't given a larger role when this has absolutely nothing to do with the ME2 storyline.  BW just didn't want to include them, period.  There's not grand story reason as they could have written the story differently.  Maybe it would've been too much effort to bring the old squad back.   They wrote the ME2 storly line after deciding to side-line these characters in a way to justify leaving the ME1 characters out.  To use the ME2 story line then to try justify these characters' abscence is question begging.

[Yeled]

MassAffected wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

It only makes sense if you assume BW absolutely had to go the Shepard dies/suicide mission route for ME2.  They could have gone many, many other ways with the story and these ways could have included Liara, Wrex, Ashley, and Kaidan.  To me, it seems like the whole plot of ME2 (which is weak IMO) just revolves around recruiting new squad mates (oh, you get to blow up a bad guy's base at the end...big deal).

It feels like the old crew was pushed aside for some unjustified reason to bring in a new crew at the expense of the main plot.

*sigh* This is the biggest thing I see brought up...they could have done this they could have done that...guess what. They DIDN'T. At the end of the day it is BioWare's story to tell and in my opinion they tell it beautifully. The icing on the cake is letting us make certain choices that enrich that story. Everyone acts so entitled and feels so damn betrayed over nothing. We can cry about what they could have done and keep arguing or we can deal with it and get together in the hope that things will work out to OUR mutual benefit.

I actually disagree with you both on this one.  The choice that BW made is the choice they made, yes.  The story was a suicide mission.  Fine.  I don't think its fair to go after BW on that.  You can compliment or criticize the way they implemented the mission/story, but to criticize the choice doesn't get you far. 

On the other hand, I disagree that it was handled beautifully.  I think the plot was weak, and I think the characters, while individually strong on their own merits, played very little role in the actual plot.  They were overly large side quests, for the most part.  That's some pretty poor storytelling, to be honest.  Its really amateurish.

I also disagree with the concept that this is Bioware's story to tell and the icing is that we get to make some decisions in it.  No.  The whole point of a good roleplaying game is that we get to make a character who belongs to us.  The Warden is my Warden, the Revan character is my Revan character, and Shepard is my Shepard.  If they want to tell stories that don't belong to their players then they should just make Final Fantasy type games.

Ultimately they dictate the terms of the story, sure, but I still take ownership of my character.  This is not entitlement.  This is roleplaying.

And finally, I'm not going to just accept the choices they make without criticism.  Yes, what's done is done.  But I'm not going to force you to accept it if they cut Miranda from ME3 without complaint, and I ask that you don't ask me to accept what happened to the characters I was interested in in ME2.

[MassAffected]

jlb524 wrote...

MassAffected wrote...

*sigh* This is the biggest thing I see brought up...they could have done this they could have done that...guess what. They DIDN'T. At the end of the day it is BioWare's story to tell and in my opinion they tell it beautifully. The icing on the cake is letting us make certain choices that enrich that story. Everyone acts so entitled and feels so damn betrayed over nothing. We can cry about what they could have done and keep arguing or we can deal with it and get together in the hope that things will work out to OUR mutual benefit.

I'm well aware that's how they did things and I don't like it but that's not my point.  I brought it up b/c people tend to use the ME2 story-line to explain why it 'makes sense' that the ME1 characters weren't given a larger role when this has absolutely nothing to do with the ME2 storyline.  BW just didn't want to include them, period.  There's not grand story reason as they could have written the story differently.  Maybe it would've been too much effort to bring the old squad back.   They wrote the ME2 storly line after deciding to side-line these characters in a way to justify leaving the ME1 characters out.  To use the ME2 story line then to try justify these characters' abscence is question begging.

I'm very glad you have insider info into BioWare and their decisions that the rest of us don't. Care to share more?

[Yeled]

jlb524 wrote...

MassAffected wrote...

*sigh* This is the biggest thing I see brought up...they could have done this they could have done that...guess what. They DIDN'T. At the end of the day it is BioWare's story to tell and in my opinion they tell it beautifully. The icing on the cake is letting us make certain choices that enrich that story. Everyone acts so entitled and feels so damn betrayed over nothing. We can cry about what they could have done and keep arguing or we can deal with it and get together in the hope that things will work out to OUR mutual benefit.

I'm well aware that's how they did things and I don't like it but that's not my point.  I brought it up b/c people tend to use the ME2 story-line to explain why it 'makes sense' that the ME1 characters weren't given a larger role when this has absolutely nothing to do with the ME2 storyline.  BW just didn't want to include them, period.  There's not grand story reason as they could have written the story differently.  Maybe it would've been too much effort to bring the old squad back.   They wrote the ME2 storly line after deciding to side-line these characters in a way to justify leaving the ME1 characters out.  To use the ME2 story line then to try justify these characters' abscence is question begging.

I do, however, agree with this.  Give me a few minutes and I can write the ME1 LIs into the suicide mission as it stands.  It's not hard.  It was just as hard to write them out as it would be to write them in.  I could even contrive of a way to guarantee their survival into ME3 (for example, they get seperated from Shep and the rest of the crew before the final confrontation).

They made a choice to keep them out that has nothing to do with the suicide mission concept.

[Yeled]

MassAffected wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

MassAffected wrote...

*sigh* This is the biggest thing I see brought up...they could have done this they could have done that...guess what. They DIDN'T. At the end of the day it is BioWare's story to tell and in my opinion they tell it beautifully. The icing on the cake is letting us make certain choices that enrich that story. Everyone acts so entitled and feels so damn betrayed over nothing. We can cry about what they could have done and keep arguing or we can deal with it and get together in the hope that things will work out to OUR mutual benefit.

I'm well aware that's how they did things and I don't like it but that's not my point.  I brought it up b/c people tend to use the ME2 story-line to explain why it 'makes sense' that the ME1 characters weren't given a larger role when this has absolutely nothing to do with the ME2 storyline.  BW just didn't want to include them, period.  There's not grand story reason as they could have written the story differently.  Maybe it would've been too much effort to bring the old squad back.   They wrote the ME2 storly line after deciding to side-line these characters in a way to justify leaving the ME1 characters out.  To use the ME2 story line then to try justify these characters' abscence is question begging.

I'm very glad you have insider info into BioWare and their decisions that the rest of us don't. Care to share more?

jlb doesn't have to have insider mission to know they made a conscious choice.

[Yeled]

DarthRevan4life wrote...

I notice a lot of people stating "well if this wasn't a suicide mission then such and such should be in the game". But the game was a suicide mission so there really is no "what if" scenario. I also don't believe there will be any if very few new squad members solely because I don't see there being any loyalty missions in ME3. The sole purpose of those were to ensure your squad had no reservations in going into a potential suicide mission. You don't go on a mission like that with a squad who has outside concerns. This leads me to believe certain squad members from ME1 and ME2 will be in the third game.

Sure there will be some new squad members but I think that's only going to happen to please new fans who pick up the third game without having playing the first and second.

You're aware that BioWare's formula goes against this, right?

[MassAffected]

A vicious and ultimately useless circle we are stuck in...I respect your right to have your own opinion. Hopefully we all get what we want in ME3.

[DarthRevan4life]

By saying that BW didn't include them solely because they chose not to is ridiculous. Remember this a story driven trilogy and for us to assume BW didn't include the ME1 cast so to speak without having a reason is just crazy. I'd like to believe BW has a reason for doing things the way they did. I'd also like to think hypothetically if the original crew were in ME2 then what if some of them died then I can tell you people would be up in arms about that or how new fans would complain they don't know who their team is.



Also this whole theory of the 2nd game not really having anything to do with the 1st is crazy. The collectors were a tool for the reapers and had to be stopped, now the reapers basically have no allies (that we know of). We shut down their go between and the one group who took us out to begin with.

[Nozybidaj]

Yeled wrote...

Ultimately they dictate the terms of the story, sure, but I still take ownership of my character.  This is not entitlement.  This is roleplaying.

And finally, I'm not going to just accept the choices they make without criticism.  Yes, what's done is done.  But I'm not going to force you to accept it if they cut Miranda from ME3 without complaint, and I ask that you don't ask me to accept what happened to the characters I was interested in in ME2.

This.  For MY Shepard ME2 was a complete waste of time as it had nothing to do with him and his ongoing story.  If BW does bring back the ME1 squad in ME3 and the ME1 squad plays a prominent role in that game then I could have just as well gone straight from ME1 to ME3 and not missed a single thing.  On the other hand they could get cameos again in ME3 which agains makes ME2 a waste since at that point I would have no reason to buy ME3.

Do I expect the fans of the ME2 group to take it laying down if they do get cameo'ed?  No,of course not, but don't come in here and just tell me "accept it" because the level of vitrol and defensiveness at the mere suggestion that the ME2 crew should be cameo'ed shows so clearly you are not willing to do the same thing even in the interest of the story.

It's completely hypocritical to come in here and tell us how "great" the ME1 LI's roles were in ME2 and in the same breath vehemetly defend the right of the ME2 crew to appear in ME3.

[MassAffected]

DarthRevan4life wrote...

By saying that BW didn't include them solely because they chose not to is ridiculous. Remember this a story driven trilogy and for us to assume BW didn't include the ME1 cast so to speak without having a reason is just crazy. I'd like to believe BW has a reason for doing things the way they did. I'd also like to think hypothetically if the original crew were in ME2 then what if some of them died then I can tell you people would be up in arms about that or how new fans would complain they don't know who their team is.

Also this whole theory of the 2nd game not really having anything to do with the 1st is crazy. The collectors were a tool for the reapers and had to be stopped, now the reapers basically have no allies (that we know of). We shut down their go between and the one group who took us out to begin with.

Exactly! Its a trilogy, a lot of folks here treat ME2 as the last game BioWare will ever make. There is so much rage over the second one that people forget all the great things that could be in store for the third. I still don't understand why we go for the throat of another fan, we really need to get on the same page here.

I also thought that ME2 had A LOT to do with ME1 and the overall plot. We find out who the Collectors are which happened to be a  moment for me and shut down a Reaper factory. We have foiled two plans now and the Reapers are pissed and coming after us full force. It is a TRILOGY!!!

Modifié par MassAffected, 10 mars 2010 - 11:07 .

[jlb524]

My only point is: if BW really wanted to keep the ME1 crew around and continue their story in the sequel, they would have. They would have wrote a story that facilitated this. Instead, they made a decision to do this 'suicide mission' thing and have you recruit all new people. To use the suicide mission story that happens after the fact to justify their initial decisions to abandon the ME1 crew and do something else in ME2 is a flawed argument.



This has nothing to do with how I feel about the quality of the suicide mission. It has nothing to do with me agreeing or disagreeing with how they handled their sequel (as mentioned, they'll do what they want). Just don't use the ME2 plot to justify the ME1 LIs exclusion when things could have been written differently. Use a more realistic reason...money/resources or something.

[Clover Rider]

jlb524 wrote...

My only point is: if BW really wanted to keep the ME1 crew around and continue their story in the sequel, they would have. They would have wrote a story that facilitated this. Instead, they made a decision to do this 'suicide mission' thing and have you recruit all new people. To use the suicide mission story that happens after the fact to justify their initial decisions to abandon the ME1 crew and do something else in ME2 is a flawed argument.

This has nothing to do with how I feel about the quality of the suicide mission. It has nothing to do with me agreeing or disagreeing with how they handled their sequel (as mentioned, they'll do what they want). Just don't use the ME2 plot to justify the ME1 LIs exclusion when things could have been written differently. Use a more realistic reason...money/resources or something.

They could not come up with any plots for the ME1 cast as they feel done in ME1 like just look at Liara do you want in ME2 just for her to say I love you over and over so in the end she is as good as a gun that tells you it loves you 

Modifié par Some Geth, 10 mars 2010 - 11:06 .

[DarthRevan4life]

I for one am not saying anyone is wrong or right but to say they just wrote off the LI's just because doesn't make sense for me. Let's say they wrote in the LI's for the 2nd game, but wouldn't that destroy the whole point of the 2nd game? They would have to write a whole new story to please the people who wanted the LI from the 1st game.



Plus if you look at the end of the first game humanity was the main reason why a reaper was killed, why the reaper fleet was stopped from continuing their cycle of destruction. So

can we all at least agree that it makes perfect sense that the reapers would then focus their efforts against the one species who's stopped them.

[jlb524]

DarthRevan4life wrote...

I for one am not saying anyone is wrong or right but to say they just wrote off the LI's just because doesn't make sense for me.

I'm not saying they wrote off the ME1 LIs 'just because' either.  Instead of putting the extra effort into having them transfer over in a meaningful way, it was easier to scrap them for now and start over with a new squad.  This seems to be the case for a lot of ME1 decisions.  Also, they wanted ME2 to be new gamer-friendly.  Well, they've succeeded.  I've played ME2 on a non-imported ME1 Shepard and the experience is almost identical and it feels the same for me as far as emotions go as when I played on an imported Shepard.

They have reasons for doing this, the suicide mission isn't one of them (that's just their excuse).  It's not like this suicide mission was set in stone.  This is fiction, so the writers dictate the direction of the story, not the other way around.