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[SLPr0]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

SLPr0 wrote...
Chloe Michel herself could have been assigned to the Cerberus project for all we know. Which could be the previous posting she had before being "quietly let go" and set up on the Citadel.

I thought about that myself.  But if that was the case I wouldn't think that Dr.Chloe would have been forthcoming at all whenever you ask her about Banes in the medbay.  I think she would have pretended that she had never heard of Banes.

Well with that in mind she doesn't really tell you much about Banes either, other than the fact that Banes was a co-worker at her former posting who was aware of her "secret".

Issue is, I don't think shes being honest with you about what her "secret" was and I believe the "medical supplies" statement is simply code between the two referring to something they both know about, which is the beta Lazarus technology.

I mean maybe I'm putting a bit too much Warren Spector into this story, but I think Shepard's being used on all sides.  I have to check timelines though, its possible that the Cerberus "super soldier" project may predate Shepard's birth, and Shepard may be a by product of some of its work, thus Harbinger's deep interest in Shepard and attempting to obtain Shepard's body after the Normandy attack through the Shadow Broker and the Collectors, and Harbingers continued warnings in combat that if he "has to tear you apart, he will" indicating a reluctance, on Harbinger's part, to actually kill or destroy Shepard for some reason.

After checking the timeline fully, the date of Shepard's birth predates the First Contact War by a few years, unless Cerberus was well established in the Systems Alliance previous to the First Contact War, Shepard is not the product of any project or genetic manipulation, biotic abilities in Shepard class versions can be understood under the timeline due to eezo exposures that happened in 2154.

So that either drives Cerberus further back into the Systems Alliance history, or, removes Shepard as a product of Cerberus classified projects. Though if Shepard was a product of such classfied projects it would explain a lot in regards to why Cerberus is willing to pour so much of their resources into procuring the body and reanimating it after death due to decompression and atmospheric re-entry.

I think theres a lot of potential threads here that could go anywhere, I'm not sure if they're intentional or simply doors the writers at BioWare have in place to walk through if they need to.

[applehug]

JedTed wrote...

I used to think that Banes and TIM were one and the same but now i'm not so sure. Cerberus was supposed to be a Black Ops organization before they went rouge right? Well maybe Armistan Banes was the original head of Cerberus untill he was killed and TIM took over the organization. TIM deffinatly sounds like the ambishious sort who'd aim to take over a company in order to pursue their own agenda.

The question is WHEN did Cerberus go rouge, we know that they were involved with the Akuze incident so it goes back that far atleast.

If I'm correct Cerberus went rouge 7 years before ME.

[HBC Dresden]

I agree with a few others that Banes is the current Illusive Man (as it is a position).

[Saurel]

I think the fact that we could potentially know his name indicates he isn't TIM.

For some reason I don't think TIM would let his real name escape that easily.

Also considering the whole "recently dead" bit and Anderson aware of that...it seemed rather recent for the same individual to reach the Billionaire lead of Cereberus position. Anderson's reaction struck me that Banes was somewhat akin to a human-Saren as opposed to some hot shot super secret evil CIA billionaire man.

Modifié par Saurel, 07 mars 2010 - 07:33 .

[theriddlen]

Michel told it to Shepard, because she known him before he "died". And when you ask Anderson, he is not likely to tell you everything - and you have highest, N7 level of proficiency. And only because of that you know something more than his name. And his name doesn't give any further info.



One more thing - who would connect dead man with billionaire and leader of secret organization (and only few persons know about his existence)?

[SLPr0]

theriddlen wrote...

Michel told it to Shepard, because she known him before he "died". And when you ask Anderson, he is not likely to tell you everything - and you have highest, N7 level of proficiency. And only because of that you know something more than his name. And his name doesn't give any further info.

One more thing - who would connect dead man with billionaire and leader of secret organization (and only few persons know about his existence)?

This is my point. Banes had to "die", all knowledge of Banes had to "die", thus the cover ups, the deaths of the marines and Kahoku.

The fact that Anderson is still alive but knows of Banes indicates Anderson knows a lot more than hes told you.

TIM's origins are from a manifesto posted by an anonymous extranet personality that warned that an alien attempt to exterminate humanity was an inevitability.

Banes could have been this anonymous extranet personality. And we do have an alien race (The Reapers) attempting to extinguish all life in the galaxy. TIM's manifesto focuses on human interests but also belies a knowledge that an inevitable extermination event is going to occur.

This indicates one of two things, on the obvious hand, TIM is a human's first extremist that is indicating that the other alien races will turn on humanity and attempt to exterminate them....but this in and of itself is more in the realm of the Terra Firma party....not TIM or Cerberus.

On the less obvious hand, TIM is well aware of the Collector threat even before the Alliance has considered it, according to the given evidence. TIM's manifesto may not have been a warning against "aliens" in the specific as they pertain to Asari, Turian, Salarian's...but the first warning of the Reaper threat, a precognition of the events leading perhaps to the indoctrination of Saren Artirius.  Or perhaps first hand knowledge.

The fact that everyone that knew anything real about Banes died, except Anderson and Michel, indicates that they know more than they're saying. And Anderson himself is extremely easily convinced of the Reaper threat through out Mass Effect, its as if he believes it even before Shepard references the vision for the first time. Its like he already knew. How would he know? Unless Banes(TIM) knew, and this was something communicated out of Cerberus into agents placed within the Systems Alliance Navy? Which Anderson may very well be one, given his absolute convinction and belief in regards to the Reaper threat, even before Shepard themselves has had any real confirmation of it other than a blurry, hard to understand vision.

[SLPr0]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

SLPr0 wrote...
TIM's origins are from a manifesto posted by an anonymous extranet personality that warned that an alien attempt to exterminate humanity was an inevitability.

Banes could have been this anonymous extranet personality. And we do have an alien race (The Reapers) attempting to extinguish all life in the galaxy. TIM's manifesto focuses on human interests but also belies a knowledge that an inevitable extermination event is going to occur.

On the less obvious hand, TIM is well aware of the Collector threat even before the Alliance has considered it, according to the given evidence. TIM's manifesto may not have been a warning against "aliens" in the specific as they pertain to Asari, Turian, Salarian's...but the first warning of the Reaper threat, a precognition of the events leading perhaps to the indoctrination of Saren Artirius.  Or perhaps first hand knowledge.

This manifesto that you are talking about.  Is it in one of the novels?

There are references to the manifesto available in the ME2 codex entries for The Illusive Man. I am unsure if the manifesto itself is brought out into the light in the novels as yet, I have to hop over to Borders when the sun comes up and pick them up.

I still think there is more to the Banes/TIM connection, I think theres a lot more behind it. Cerberus could have known about the Reapers long before Shepard even went to Eden Prime. The Manifesto could have simply been targetted misinformation, a motive truth hidden behind statements of false pretense "expected" from humans by the other galactic races.

Modifié par SLPr0, 07 mars 2010 - 08:35 .

[Saurel]

SLPr0 wrote...



The fact that everyone that knew anything real about Banes died, except Anderson and Michel, indicates that they know more than they're saying. And Anderson himself is extremely easily convinced of the Reaper threat through out Mass Effect, its as if he believes it even before Shepard references the vision for the first time. Its like he already knew. How would he know? Unless Banes(TIM) knew, and this was something communicated out of Cerberus into agents placed within the Systems Alliance Navy? Which Anderson may very well be one, given his absolute convinction and belief in regards to the Reaper threat, even before Shepard themselves has had any real confirmation of it other than a blurry, hard to understand vision.

I think you're reading way too much into this, especially considering Anderson is pretty leery of you working with Cerberus...

I honestly hope he went by the "Illusive Man" while working for the alliance, and the name sticks background is the gist of TIM. And not some convoluted Da Vinci Code scheme.

theriddlen wrote...

One more thing - who would connect
dead man with billionaire and leader of secret organization (and only
few persons know about his existence)?

Considering you can make a connection between Banes and Cerberus relatively easily in the first game. I would imagine anyone that looked into it more? And the organization isn't that secret, considering how the Council members bring it up and such and label them an "avowed enemy of the Council" ; I would they aren't that "secret".


What seems most plausible is Banes was an agent of Cerberus. Who they either want to fake the death of, or else had info about Cerberus that they didn't want in the hands of others. The later seems more plausible... I could see the former if he is a valuable enough asset.

Modifié par Saurel, 07 mars 2010 - 09:04 .

[SLPr0]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

SLPr0 wrote...
The fact that everyone that knew anything real about Banes died, except Anderson and Michel, indicates that they know more than they're saying. And Anderson himself is extremely easily convinced of the Reaper threat through out Mass Effect, its as if he believes it even before Shepard references the vision for the first time. Its like he already knew. How would he know? Unless Banes(TIM) knew, and this was something communicated out of Cerberus into agents placed within the Systems Alliance Navy? Which Anderson may very well be one, given his absolute convinction and belief in regards to the Reaper threat, even before Shepard themselves has had any real confirmation of it other than a blurry, hard to understand vision.

I noticed this also.  No convincing has to be made with Anderson.  But he is suppose to be the good guy on your side.  He seemed to have a little vandetta against Saren.  In fact there really isn't anything discussed about Shepard dying and being rebuilt or anything like that with Anderson in ME2.  He just says "Well its up to you stop them".  "You can't trust Cerberus".  At that point one can say that he doesn't need convincing because he has seen the evidence.  Then there is the theory that the Council is well aware of what is actually going on with the Reapers.  I read somewhere here that in the novels, the Council is actually very well aware of alot that is going on and they are engaged in all sorts of covert ops and infilitrating wherever they can.

Exactly my point.

Anderson knew you were alive when everyone else still believed you were dead. You'd run all of one mission on Freedom's Progress and suddenly you have an email from Anderson and he knows you're alive and working for Cerberus...who told him? Tali on her Omni-Tool Twitter interface? "ran into shepard today of all things, he was dead, was with cerberus operatives" and Anderson follows her Tweets?

I don't buy that, Tali had a mission she was on, depending on your choices, either of them, on the Freedoms Progress mission, she'd have reported to the Migrant Fleet immediately either with Veetor, or with news that you and Cerberus had taken him for questioning.

Anderson accepts your Cerberus alignment without flinching regardless of your character motivations. He (or the Council) even reinvoke your Spectre status if you wish to have it.

For a "terrorist organization with a human centric agenda" the leading figure of the Systems Alliance Navy, and/or the Human Councillor to the Council/New Council is very quick to write off your involvement with them as potentially beneficial.

Anderson knows a lot more than hes telling you. And as much as I've posted in the past that I don't trust The Illusive Man...I find myself trusting Anderson/Udina/The Council even less now due to this loose thread.

They know...they already knew, they denied it though all through out Mass Effect, and continue to do spin control in Mass Effect 2. Why?

Banes is the key. I'm sure of it.

[anmiro]

One possibility is that the Illusive Man sought out or was sought out by Cerberus for financial support after they were disavowed by the Alliance. If funding was suddenly cut off to their operations and they weren't ready to call it quits, it would make sense that they would seek out a prominent businessman who might share their goals.

[Netzach]

Cerberus wasn't go rogue as you all says.They are still working with Alliance money, but is better to the humanity to classify them as "rogue" or "terrorist", then the Alliance washes his hand with all the bad things cerberus does, there are hints to it, they are still undercover but obviously humanity isn't going to admit that they are still supporting a group called terrorist by the rest of the species.

I don't know if i'm making my point but i think it's pretty obviously and a very human thing to do that ^^. Even some humans think Cerberus is evil, they (the alliance) did a great work, the pull of all the negative implications of working openly with this group and still have the benefits of their work.

Also +1 to Bains being TIM.

Modifié par kanuvis, 07 mars 2010 - 10:21 .

[Vash3283]

I support the continuation of the Armistan Banes quest lines, these theories are pretty amazing, and well thought out.

[IoCaster]

There's another interesting point that I can't quite see the significance of yet. When I was using the save editor I noticed that one of the ME1 choices that carries over to ME2 is whether or not you killed or persuaded the blackmailer. Obviously, it points to a continuation of this particular plot thread in some way. It may just be a simple flag to determine whether or not you get an email from Dr. Michel. The odd point to me is that I can't really figure out what difference it would make. Either way the Krogan mentions Banes before you kill or intimidate him.

[SLPr0]

Another thing to consider here is the name in and of itself.

Armistan Banes....this is not the kind of name a writer assigns to a throw away character that is a motivator for a minor story line tie in.

If the Banes link is truly superficial...then why not just stick with the last name? Most superficial characters in this title have a single name, even superficial characters with minor missions attached to them. Fist is a good example there, anyone know his real name? And while superficial he still had a main story tie in role.

Banes on the other hand is fully identified by first and last name...and its not just a throw away name either. Its got a certain level of both sophistication and negativity to the conjunction of the given name and surname.

This is not a throwaway character, not from a writers point of view. He just didn't pop back up visibly in Mass Effect 2...it doesn't mean he wasn't there, staring us in the face the entire time.

[Asheer_Khan]

By the way if you will pay attention of the first words of that krogan which he says to Morlan, he says very direct "I told BANES to scud (or screw) off this project"... so apparently Banes IS ALIVE unless that krogan talk to CG voice.



Second thing what might connect Banes whit Timmy is that you don't perform "cleaning" operation (termination of Marines who found Banes body, killing Kahoku (maybe he was too close to discover Banes true identity?)) to conceal identity of important but still one of many agents UNLESS that agent is on pinnacle of organization hierarchy.

I agree that Anderson's reaction on Banes name was too strange if he was just a mere special agent...



This secret is show pretty clear how many things was sacrificed by devs to made ME 2 playable for newbies and i really doubt if we will ever learn who Banes really IS.

[anmiro]

I think the Alliance has disavowed Cerberus. I think Anderson is very secretive about the Alliance's involvement with Cerberus because exposing them for their crimes means exposing themselves. I think Cerberus is entirely self sufficient now.  After Cerberus's funding was cut, I think they brokered a deal with Collectors exchanging living test subjects for advanced technology.

 This is a direct quote from the Novel Mass Effect: Ascension:

"In return, the Collectors would offer incredible technology or knowledge, such as a ship with a new mass drive configuration that increased engine efficiency, or a cache of advanced targeting VI mods to radically improve weapon accuracy. Eventually this technology would be adapted by galactic society as a whole, but for several years it would provide a significant edge for anyone smart enough to take the deal."

TIM built Cord-Hislop Aeorospace, a corporation that manufactures and sells starships, as a front for Cerberus operations. But how did he do it? I think Cerberus provided Cord-Hislop Aeorospace with Collector technology in exchange for Corporate funding and over time Cerberus slowly infiltrated every level of the corporate ladder.

Modifié par anmiro, 07 mars 2010 - 04:25 .

[DarthCaine]

Most likely just a cut character, you people read too much into it

[Louis deGuerre]

I love the way everyone (including me) has thought up theories to explain Banes.

However, I sincerely doubt we'll ever hear from him again in me3.

Simple reason, Bioware wants people to start with me3 without having played previous games and new players would not understand it at all.

[SLPr0]

Louis deGuerre wrote...

I love the way everyone (including me) has thought up theories to explain Banes.
However, I sincerely doubt we'll ever hear from him again in me3.
Simple reason, Bioware wants people to start with me3 without having played previous games and new players would not understand it at all.

In counter point, having spoken with a friend that is a regional manager of the local Gamestop franchises, he has said that since Mass Effect 2 was released they have found it nearly impossible to keep Mass Effect in stock. He went on to state that he felt sales of the original Mass Effect were equal to or rivaling the original sales of Mass Effect when it released to PC in 2008.

The whole "BioWare doesn't want to confuse new players" argument is bunk. Even if they come in new at Mass Effect 3, they're going to go back and buy the original and Mass Effect 2 as well.

This game is on a classic scale like Tolkien's LoTR, and I say that in all seriousness. There will never be a person that has played only ONE of the games. the story is too well done, the games themselves are too well done.

[theriddlen]

BioWare dealt with players lack of information - if you find something that you may don't understand, you can ask about it. So there is no problem.

[Schroing]

Threads like these annoy me so much. Nothing of what we know about Banes points to TIM, and our lack of information on TIM doesn't point to Banes. We know nothing.

[War Houndoom]

DarthCaine wrote...

Most likely just a cut character, you people read too much into it

I doubt it, bioware arn't the kind of people who just leave plot holes open.....oh wait, nevermind.