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[UBER GEEKZILLA]

hooo yeah they thought ff 13 would sell like 5 million in one day in japan..it sold 2 million just now..



plus its getting passable reviews at best and square enix was asked in a recent interview"why mass effect 2 is more succesful"..LOL oh and becuz a this squrare actully had the guts to ask bioware to make blue dragon 2 HHAHAAH squre enix is going down

[Busomjack]

I Valente I wrote...

Busomjack wrote...

IGN only gave it a 8.3 while gamespot gave it an 8.5.

My top three favorite games this generation have gotten 8.5's from those sites. Mass Effect...8.5, Dragon Age xbox....8.5, Tales of Vesperia....8.5. Who cares what score it got? Honestly, are you that filled with fanboyism that you WANT it to be a bad game? Would you not rather have MORE good games, or are you happy with only having the games you want to be good get good scores?

FYI, Final Fantasy IX, THE best in my opinion, got a review of 8.5 from Gamespot....

Those games didn't have the benefit of holding prestigious titles.  They were original material and thus didn't have the hype or marketing muscle that a series like Final Fantasy has.  Hype does have an influence on review scores, just read about what happened to Jeff Gerstmann at gamespot.

[Fexelea]

Busomjack wrote...

Fexelea wrote...

Busomjack wrote...

Fexelea wrote...

Busomjack wrote...

Fexelea wrote...

OP's fail is hilarious.

You know, reviewers can say whatever they wish. It all comes down to sales. And sales, they are going to have more than plenty of.

Remember the Matrix sequels?  The Matrix Reloaded had excellent ticket sales despite it being a crap sequel because it rode the hype train of being the sequel to a critically acclaimed movie.  The third Matrix movie however did not gross nearly as high at the box office and the franchise effectively ceased to exist after that with the exception of some crappy MMORPG that lasted less than a year.

Final Fantasy XIII will probably sell reasonably well, but lack of quality will hurt the franchise in the future.  You can only be dissapointed so many times before you refuse to throw your money away.

How does the Matrix, which is a "movie-phenomenon" compare or become a moral equivalent to a "game-phenomenon". The two industries are radically different, the audiences and consumer habits are worlds appart, and the definition of "success" is also incredibly different. Unequal business models and target market means that comparisson is not applicable, as the reactions of one audience cannot be taken as model behavior for the other.

Your first post claims that the failure of Final Fantasy XIII is "official", based on selected reviews that are then filtered through your "84 is bad" meter. Two points:

1. Final Fantasy XIII's success is yet to be determined. It will be determined by sales and profitability, not by reviews.

2. You do not have approppriate sales numbers to make any "official" conclusion even if we were to accept any claim by some random person in the internetz as such.

 

It's because consumers are not stupid that they'll pay loyalty to a franchise that has continues to let them down.  There is a reason why the Final Fantasy brand is prestigious.  It's because the game has built up a good reputation since many of the games have been positive.  That reputation is not invincible though and Final Fantasy 13's dissapointing reception relative to other games in the series will hurt future Final Fantasy titles.

The fact that Final Fantasy XIII has recieved significantly lower critical acclaim than past titles proves it's a failure.  Keep in mind that this is not just a score of 8.3.  It is a score of 8.3 for a Final Fantasy game where often times reviewers feel pressure to mark up review scores due to pressure from corporate sponsors and rabid fanboyism.

The numbers have yet to come in but I have followed enough similar market trends to say confidently that Final Fantasy XIII is a failure.

You are making assumptions. "Consumers are not stupid" is a gross generalization and an irrelevant remark.

• We do not know how consumers feel about Final Fantasy XIII yet.
• You have no sales number to prove a financial failure
• You do not have consumer feedback to prove dissapointment.

Final Fantasy XIII "metacritic" is at 82. How is that lower than the:

Xbox 360: Final Fantasy XI (2006) 66
Sony PSP: Final Fantasy Anniversary Edition (2007) 67
Wii: Final Fantasy IV: The After Years (2009) 69
Nintendo DS: Final Fantasy III (2006) 77
Sony PSP: Dissidia Final Fantasy (2009) 79
Playstation: Final Fantasy Origins (2003) 79
Playstation: Final Fantasy Anthology (1999) 80
GameCube: Final Fantasy: Crystal Chronicles (2004) 80

There are plenty of FF titles that don't even make it to the 80 mark. And the most highly rated titles are only 1 point above (Final Fantasy XII)

"Similar market trends"? And which might those be? If you want to position yourself as a marketing expert with insight into the gaming market and the particular target market of Final Fantasy games, then you should substantiate your opinion with facts.

Even if you were such expert, your opinion on what the future holds remains an opinion, and there is nothing "official" about it regarding the success or failure of a brand. You do not have any data to back up what remain as your assumptions.

Consumers are not stupid is relevant.  Consumers are what drive the industry and hype can only sell a title lacking in quality for so long.  I don't have the numbers but reviews of the game strongly indicate that this game brings the series to a new low.  Simple put, Final Fantasy has jumped the shark.
When I said lowest of all the Final Fantasies, I meant of the main titles.  Not the spin offs.  I guess I didn't consider Final Fantasy XI.  I hardly even consider that a main game in the series but fine.

I think I have already explained what I meant when I said similar market trends.  I was referring to how a game that falls below expectations, even slightly will make anticipation for the next entry in the franchise significantly less.  That is why the third Matrix movie fell well below expectations in terms of sales.
What I am saying is obviously my opinion, but I think past evidence brings enough merit to my opinion that I can safely say that it is a strong one.

"Consumers are not stupid" is not relevant to your statement since you have no data to backup your assumptions (which are based on second hand information) regarding what this game is or not, therefore the perceptions or reactions of consumers cannot be measured. So:

1. You cannot determine the quality of the game for yourself since you have not played it. (Unless you have the JP version in which case you should base your opinion on your own experience rather than on your interpretations of what others have written)
2. You have come to a conclusion without any first hand experience. Your second hand sources are also based on selective observation. You are ignoring the multitude of good reviews based on your personal bias as to what is relevant.
3. You are determining that the Metascore of 82 is the lowest based on what you consider "true installments" of the series. The difference even when applying your selective criteria is negligible.
4. Review scores and reception are not the same thing. Even IF the reviews are terrible and after playing it everyone hates it and loses all interest in the series, as long as the sales numbers are high the title could still be a success. What "is", what "could be" and what "will be" are not the same thing.
5. You have not provided any facts regarding similar market trends. The Matrix movies are not a moral equivalent to this particular series. A moral equivalent would be Dragon Quest:

• Dragon Quest V metacritic is 84 (Sold 2.8 million)
• Dragon Quest VII metacritic is 78 (Sold 4.1 million)
• According to your logic, since 78 is the lowest score the series ever got, the next installment should FAIL and DQ VII is a failure right? WRONG:
• Dragon Quest VII metacritic is 89 and it sold 4.4 million.

If you want to talk about market trends, make relevant comparisons. If you want your opinion to be considered as a "strong one", inform yourself properly on how to avoid fallacious reasoning.

If you want your opinion to be "official". Get a job in the relevant office.

[Busomjack]

Fexelea wrote...

Busomjack wrote...

Fexelea wrote...

Busomjack wrote...

Fexelea wrote...

Busomjack wrote...

Fexelea wrote...

OP's fail is hilarious.

You know, reviewers can say whatever they wish. It all comes down to sales. And sales, they are going to have more than plenty of.

Remember the Matrix sequels?  The Matrix Reloaded had excellent ticket sales despite it being a crap sequel because it rode the hype train of being the sequel to a critically acclaimed movie.  The third Matrix movie however did not gross nearly as high at the box office and the franchise effectively ceased to exist after that with the exception of some crappy MMORPG that lasted less than a year.

Final Fantasy XIII will probably sell reasonably well, but lack of quality will hurt the franchise in the future.  You can only be dissapointed so many times before you refuse to throw your money away.

How does the Matrix, which is a "movie-phenomenon" compare or become a moral equivalent to a "game-phenomenon". The two industries are radically different, the audiences and consumer habits are worlds appart, and the definition of "success" is also incredibly different. Unequal business models and target market means that comparisson is not applicable, as the reactions of one audience cannot be taken as model behavior for the other.

Your first post claims that the failure of Final Fantasy XIII is "official", based on selected reviews that are then filtered through your "84 is bad" meter. Two points:

1. Final Fantasy XIII's success is yet to be determined. It will be determined by sales and profitability, not by reviews.

2. You do not have approppriate sales numbers to make any "official" conclusion even if we were to accept any claim by some random person in the internetz as such.

 

It's because consumers are not stupid that they'll pay loyalty to a franchise that has continues to let them down.  There is a reason why the Final Fantasy brand is prestigious.  It's because the game has built up a good reputation since many of the games have been positive.  That reputation is not invincible though and Final Fantasy 13's dissapointing reception relative to other games in the series will hurt future Final Fantasy titles.

The fact that Final Fantasy XIII has recieved significantly lower critical acclaim than past titles proves it's a failure.  Keep in mind that this is not just a score of 8.3.  It is a score of 8.3 for a Final Fantasy game where often times reviewers feel pressure to mark up review scores due to pressure from corporate sponsors and rabid fanboyism.

The numbers have yet to come in but I have followed enough similar market trends to say confidently that Final Fantasy XIII is a failure.

You are making assumptions. "Consumers are not stupid" is a gross generalization and an irrelevant remark.

• We do not know how consumers feel about Final Fantasy XIII yet.
• You have no sales number to prove a financial failure
• You do not have consumer feedback to prove dissapointment.

Final Fantasy XIII "metacritic" is at 82. How is that lower than the:

Xbox 360: Final Fantasy XI (2006) 66
Sony PSP: Final Fantasy Anniversary Edition (2007) 67
Wii: Final Fantasy IV: The After Years (2009) 69
Nintendo DS: Final Fantasy III (2006) 77
Sony PSP: Dissidia Final Fantasy (2009) 79
Playstation: Final Fantasy Origins (2003) 79
Playstation: Final Fantasy Anthology (1999) 80
GameCube: Final Fantasy: Crystal Chronicles (2004) 80

There are plenty of FF titles that don't even make it to the 80 mark. And the most highly rated titles are only 1 point above (Final Fantasy XII)

"Similar market trends"? And which might those be? If you want to position yourself as a marketing expert with insight into the gaming market and the particular target market of Final Fantasy games, then you should substantiate your opinion with facts.

Even if you were such expert, your opinion on what the future holds remains an opinion, and there is nothing "official" about it regarding the success or failure of a brand. You do not have any data to back up what remain as your assumptions.

Consumers are not stupid is relevant.  Consumers are what drive the industry and hype can only sell a title lacking in quality for so long.  I don't have the numbers but reviews of the game strongly indicate that this game brings the series to a new low.  Simple put, Final Fantasy has jumped the shark.
When I said lowest of all the Final Fantasies, I meant of the main titles.  Not the spin offs.  I guess I didn't consider Final Fantasy XI.  I hardly even consider that a main game in the series but fine.

I think I have already explained what I meant when I said similar market trends.  I was referring to how a game that falls below expectations, even slightly will make anticipation for the next entry in the franchise significantly less.  That is why the third Matrix movie fell well below expectations in terms of sales.
What I am saying is obviously my opinion, but I think past evidence brings enough merit to my opinion that I can safely say that it is a strong one.

"Consumers are not stupid" is not relevant to your statement since you have no data to backup your assumptions (which are based on second hand information) regarding what this game is or not, therefore the perceptions or reactions of consumers cannot be measured. So:

1. You cannot determine the quality of the game for yourself since you have not played it. (Unless you have the JP version in which case you should base your opinion on your own experience rather than on your interpretations of what others have written)
2. You have come to a conclusion without any first hand experience. Your second hand sources are also based on selective observation. You are ignoring the multitude of good reviews based on your personal bias as to what is relevant.
3. You are determining that the Metascore of 82 is the lowest based on what you consider "true installments" of the series. The difference even when applying your selective criteria is negligible.
4. Review scores and reception are not the same thing. Even IF the reviews are terrible and after playing it everyone hates it and loses all interest in the series, as long as the sales numbers are high the title could still be a success. What "is", what "could be" and what "will be" are not the same thing.
5. You have not provided any facts regarding similar market trends. The Matrix movies are not a moral equivalent to this particular series. A moral equivalent would be Dragon Quest:

• Dragon Quest V metacritic is 84 (Sold 2.8 million)
• Dragon Quest VII metacritic is 78 (Sold 4.1 million)
• According to your logic, since 78 is the lowest score the series ever got, the next installment should FAIL and DQ VII is a failure right? WRONG:
• Dragon Quest VII metacritic is 89 and it sold 4.4 million.

If you want to talk about market trends, make relevant comparisons. If you want your opinion to be considered as a "strong one", inform yourself properly on how to avoid fallacious reasoning.

If you want your opinion to be "official". Get a job in the relevant office.

I know that quality is a factor in consumer purchase making decisions and that since Final Fantasy XIII has lowered that quality standard, the Final Fantasy title will no longer be prestigious enough to sell Final Fantasy games anymore.
Expectations for this game were huge.  It's the first main Final Fantasy game in nearly 4 years and the fact that it can't break into the 90's is a bitter dissaspointment.  I have not played the game itself but I think it's obvious that the game can't be that great otherwise most game websites and magazines would not have the courage to give it a less than stellar review, that is a risk as we saw from the Jeff Gerstmann debacle.  Final Fantasy XIII obviously had to have done something horrendously wrong for it to not get by on it's name alone.
Had this not been a Final Fantasy game I have no doubt that it would probably get a 6 or a 5.
A 82 is a negligible difference between the other games in the series?  SInce when has one of the main games in the series ever scored so low?  Final Fantasy's reviews set a new low for the franchise and reviews do matter.

I think sales will probably be pretty high but this will be the turning point of the Final Fantasy series.  People will look back at Final Fantasy XIII and realize that the Final Fantasy games just aren't as good anymore as they used to and thus will not anticipate future Final Fantasy games as highly.  The Final Fantasy name itself is tarnished by Final Fantasy XIII's lukewarm reception.
I have not provided a video game comparison because there is no comparison, at least not in the USA.  Those sales figures include Japanese sales and Dragon Quest is much much much more popular in Japan than it is in the USA.
In the USA, the Final Fantasy name is by far the most well known of any RPG franchise.  That is likely to change though due to Final Fantasy's failure to earn scores which live up to the series' expectations.

[Busomjack]

Busomjack wrote...

Fexelea wrote...

Busomjack wrote...

Fexelea wrote...

Busomjack wrote...

Fexelea wrote...

Busomjack wrote...

Fexelea wrote...

OP's fail is hilarious.

You know, reviewers can say whatever they wish. It all comes down to sales. And sales, they are going to have more than plenty of.

Remember the Matrix sequels?  The Matrix Reloaded had excellent ticket sales despite it being a crap sequel because it rode the hype train of being the sequel to a critically acclaimed movie.  The third Matrix movie however did not gross nearly as high at the box office and the franchise effectively ceased to exist after that with the exception of some crappy MMORPG that lasted less than a year.

Final Fantasy XIII will probably sell reasonably well, but lack of quality will hurt the franchise in the future.  You can only be dissapointed so many times before you refuse to throw your money away.

How does the Matrix, which is a "movie-phenomenon" compare or become a moral equivalent to a "game-phenomenon". The two industries are radically different, the audiences and consumer habits are worlds appart, and the definition of "success" is also incredibly different. Unequal business models and target market means that comparisson is not applicable, as the reactions of one audience cannot be taken as model behavior for the other.

Your first post claims that the failure of Final Fantasy XIII is "official", based on selected reviews that are then filtered through your "84 is bad" meter. Two points:

1. Final Fantasy XIII's success is yet to be determined. It will be determined by sales and profitability, not by reviews.

2. You do not have approppriate sales numbers to make any "official" conclusion even if we were to accept any claim by some random person in the internetz as such.

 

It's because consumers are not stupid that they'll pay loyalty to a franchise that has continues to let them down.  There is a reason why the Final Fantasy brand is prestigious.  It's because the game has built up a good reputation since many of the games have been positive.  That reputation is not invincible though and Final Fantasy 13's dissapointing reception relative to other games in the series will hurt future Final Fantasy titles.

The fact that Final Fantasy XIII has recieved significantly lower critical acclaim than past titles proves it's a failure.  Keep in mind that this is not just a score of 8.3.  It is a score of 8.3 for a Final Fantasy game where often times reviewers feel pressure to mark up review scores due to pressure from corporate sponsors and rabid fanboyism.

The numbers have yet to come in but I have followed enough similar market trends to say confidently that Final Fantasy XIII is a failure.

You are making assumptions. "Consumers are not stupid" is a gross generalization and an irrelevant remark.

• We do not know how consumers feel about Final Fantasy XIII yet.
• You have no sales number to prove a financial failure
• You do not have consumer feedback to prove dissapointment.

Final Fantasy XIII "metacritic" is at 82. How is that lower than the:

Xbox 360: Final Fantasy XI (2006) 66
Sony PSP: Final Fantasy Anniversary Edition (2007) 67
Wii: Final Fantasy IV: The After Years (2009) 69
Nintendo DS: Final Fantasy III (2006) 77
Sony PSP: Dissidia Final Fantasy (2009) 79
Playstation: Final Fantasy Origins (2003) 79
Playstation: Final Fantasy Anthology (1999) 80
GameCube: Final Fantasy: Crystal Chronicles (2004) 80

There are plenty of FF titles that don't even make it to the 80 mark. And the most highly rated titles are only 1 point above (Final Fantasy XII)

"Similar market trends"? And which might those be? If you want to position yourself as a marketing expert with insight into the gaming market and the particular target market of Final Fantasy games, then you should substantiate your opinion with facts.

Even if you were such expert, your opinion on what the future holds remains an opinion, and there is nothing "official" about it regarding the success or failure of a brand. You do not have any data to back up what remain as your assumptions.

Consumers are not stupid is relevant.  Consumers are what drive the industry and hype can only sell a title lacking in quality for so long.  I don't have the numbers but reviews of the game strongly indicate that this game brings the series to a new low.  Simple put, Final Fantasy has jumped the shark.
When I said lowest of all the Final Fantasies, I meant of the main titles.  Not the spin offs.  I guess I didn't consider Final Fantasy XI.  I hardly even consider that a main game in the series but fine.

I think I have already explained what I meant when I said similar market trends.  I was referring to how a game that falls below expectations, even slightly will make anticipation for the next entry in the franchise significantly less.  That is why the third Matrix movie fell well below expectations in terms of sales.
What I am saying is obviously my opinion, but I think past evidence brings enough merit to my opinion that I can safely say that it is a strong one.

"Consumers are not stupid" is not relevant to your statement since you have no data to backup your assumptions (which are based on second hand information) regarding what this game is or not, therefore the perceptions or reactions of consumers cannot be measured. So:

1. You cannot determine the quality of the game for yourself since you have not played it. (Unless you have the JP version in which case you should base your opinion on your own experience rather than on your interpretations of what others have written)
2. You have come to a conclusion without any first hand experience. Your second hand sources are also based on selective observation. You are ignoring the multitude of good reviews based on your personal bias as to what is relevant.
3. You are determining that the Metascore of 82 is the lowest based on what you consider "true installments" of the series. The difference even when applying your selective criteria is negligible.
4. Review scores and reception are not the same thing. Even IF the reviews are terrible and after playing it everyone hates it and loses all interest in the series, as long as the sales numbers are high the title could still be a success. What "is", what "could be" and what "will be" are not the same thing.
5. You have not provided any facts regarding similar market trends. The Matrix movies are not a moral equivalent to this particular series. A moral equivalent would be Dragon Quest:

• Dragon Quest V metacritic is 84 (Sold 2.8 million)
• Dragon Quest VII metacritic is 78 (Sold 4.1 million)
• According to your logic, since 78 is the lowest score the series ever got, the next installment should FAIL and DQ VII is a failure right? WRONG:
• Dragon Quest VII metacritic is 89 and it sold 4.4 million.

If you want to talk about market trends, make relevant comparisons. If you want your opinion to be considered as a "strong one", inform yourself properly on how to avoid fallacious reasoning.

If you want your opinion to be "official". Get a job in the relevant office.

I know that quality is a factor in consumer purchase making decisions and that since Final Fantasy XIII has lowered that quality standard, the Final Fantasy title will no longer be prestigious enough to sell Final Fantasy games anymore.
Expectations for this game were huge.  It's the first main Final Fantasy game in nearly 4 years and the fact that it can't break into the 90's is a bitter dissaspointment.  I have not played the game itself but I think it's obvious that the game can't be that great otherwise most game websites and magazines would not have the courage to give it a less than stellar review, that is a risk as we saw from the Jeff Gerstmann debacle.  Final Fantasy XIII obviously had to have done something horrendously wrong for it to not get by on it's name alone.
Had this not been a Final Fantasy game I have no doubt that it would probably get a 6 or a 5.
A 82 is a negligible difference between the other games in the series?  SInce when has one of the main games in the series ever scored so low?  Final Fantasy's reviews set a new low for the franchise and reviews do matter.

I think sales will probably be pretty high but this will be the turning point of the Final Fantasy series.  People will look back at Final Fantasy XIII and realize that the Final Fantasy games just aren't as good anymore as they used to and thus will not anticipate future Final Fantasy games as highly.  The Final Fantasy name itself is tarnished by Final Fantasy XIII's lukewarm reception.
I have not provided a video game comparison because there is no comparison, at least not in the USA.  Those sales figures include Japanese sales and Dragon Quest is much much much more popular in Japan than it is in the USA.
In the USA, the Final Fantasy name is by far the most well known of any RPG franchise(with the possible exception of Pokemon if you want to say that even counts).  That is likely to change though due to Final Fantasy's failure to earn scores which live up to the series' expectations.

[Gandalf-the-Fabulous]

Busomjack wrote...

Busomjack wrote...

Fexelea wrote...

Busomjack wrote...

Fexelea wrote...

Busomjack wrote...

Fexelea wrote...

Busomjack wrote...

Fexelea wrote...

OP's fail is hilarious.

You know, reviewers can say whatever they wish. It all comes down to sales. And sales, they are going to have more than plenty of.

Remember the Matrix sequels?  The Matrix Reloaded had excellent ticket sales despite it being a crap sequel because it rode the hype train of being the sequel to a critically acclaimed movie.  The third Matrix movie however did not gross nearly as high at the box office and the franchise effectively ceased to exist after that with the exception of some crappy MMORPG that lasted less than a year.

Final Fantasy XIII will probably sell reasonably well, but lack of quality will hurt the franchise in the future.  You can only be dissapointed so many times before you refuse to throw your money away.

How does the Matrix, which is a "movie-phenomenon" compare or become a moral equivalent to a "game-phenomenon". The two industries are radically different, the audiences and consumer habits are worlds appart, and the definition of "success" is also incredibly different. Unequal business models and target market means that comparisson is not applicable, as the reactions of one audience cannot be taken as model behavior for the other.

Your first post claims that the failure of Final Fantasy XIII is "official", based on selected reviews that are then filtered through your "84 is bad" meter. Two points:

1. Final Fantasy XIII's success is yet to be determined. It will be determined by sales and profitability, not by reviews.

2. You do not have approppriate sales numbers to make any "official" conclusion even if we were to accept any claim by some random person in the internetz as such.

 

It's because consumers are not stupid that they'll pay loyalty to a franchise that has continues to let them down.  There is a reason why the Final Fantasy brand is prestigious.  It's because the game has built up a good reputation since many of the games have been positive.  That reputation is not invincible though and Final Fantasy 13's dissapointing reception relative to other games in the series will hurt future Final Fantasy titles.

The fact that Final Fantasy XIII has recieved significantly lower critical acclaim than past titles proves it's a failure.  Keep in mind that this is not just a score of 8.3.  It is a score of 8.3 for a Final Fantasy game where often times reviewers feel pressure to mark up review scores due to pressure from corporate sponsors and rabid fanboyism.

The numbers have yet to come in but I have followed enough similar market trends to say confidently that Final Fantasy XIII is a failure.

You are making assumptions. "Consumers are not stupid" is a gross generalization and an irrelevant remark.

• We do not know how consumers feel about Final Fantasy XIII yet.
• You have no sales number to prove a financial failure
• You do not have consumer feedback to prove dissapointment.

Final Fantasy XIII "metacritic" is at 82. How is that lower than the:

Xbox 360: Final Fantasy XI (2006) 66
Sony PSP: Final Fantasy Anniversary Edition (2007) 67
Wii: Final Fantasy IV: The After Years (2009) 69
Nintendo DS: Final Fantasy III (2006) 77
Sony PSP: Dissidia Final Fantasy (2009) 79
Playstation: Final Fantasy Origins (2003) 79
Playstation: Final Fantasy Anthology (1999) 80
GameCube: Final Fantasy: Crystal Chronicles (2004) 80

There are plenty of FF titles that don't even make it to the 80 mark. And the most highly rated titles are only 1 point above (Final Fantasy XII)

"Similar market trends"? And which might those be? If you want to position yourself as a marketing expert with insight into the gaming market and the particular target market of Final Fantasy games, then you should substantiate your opinion with facts.

Even if you were such expert, your opinion on what the future holds remains an opinion, and there is nothing "official" about it regarding the success or failure of a brand. You do not have any data to back up what remain as your assumptions.

Consumers are not stupid is relevant.  Consumers are what drive the industry and hype can only sell a title lacking in quality for so long.  I don't have the numbers but reviews of the game strongly indicate that this game brings the series to a new low.  Simple put, Final Fantasy has jumped the shark.
When I said lowest of all the Final Fantasies, I meant of the main titles.  Not the spin offs.  I guess I didn't consider Final Fantasy XI.  I hardly even consider that a main game in the series but fine.

I think I have already explained what I meant when I said similar market trends.  I was referring to how a game that falls below expectations, even slightly will make anticipation for the next entry in the franchise significantly less.  That is why the third Matrix movie fell well below expectations in terms of sales.
What I am saying is obviously my opinion, but I think past evidence brings enough merit to my opinion that I can safely say that it is a strong one.

"Consumers are not stupid" is not relevant to your statement since you have no data to backup your assumptions (which are based on second hand information) regarding what this game is or not, therefore the perceptions or reactions of consumers cannot be measured. So:

1. You cannot determine the quality of the game for yourself since you have not played it. (Unless you have the JP version in which case you should base your opinion on your own experience rather than on your interpretations of what others have written)
2. You have come to a conclusion without any first hand experience. Your second hand sources are also based on selective observation. You are ignoring the multitude of good reviews based on your personal bias as to what is relevant.
3. You are determining that the Metascore of 82 is the lowest based on what you consider "true installments" of the series. The difference even when applying your selective criteria is negligible.
4. Review scores and reception are not the same thing. Even IF the reviews are terrible and after playing it everyone hates it and loses all interest in the series, as long as the sales numbers are high the title could still be a success. What "is", what "could be" and what "will be" are not the same thing.
5. You have not provided any facts regarding similar market trends. The Matrix movies are not a moral equivalent to this particular series. A moral equivalent would be Dragon Quest:

• Dragon Quest V metacritic is 84 (Sold 2.8 million)
• Dragon Quest VII metacritic is 78 (Sold 4.1 million)
• According to your logic, since 78 is the lowest score the series ever got, the next installment should FAIL and DQ VII is a failure right? WRONG:
• Dragon Quest VII metacritic is 89 and it sold 4.4 million.

If you want to talk about market trends, make relevant comparisons. If you want your opinion to be considered as a "strong one", inform yourself properly on how to avoid fallacious reasoning.

If you want your opinion to be "official". Get a job in the relevant office.

I know that quality is a factor in consumer purchase making decisions and that since Final Fantasy XIII has lowered that quality standard, the Final Fantasy title will no longer be prestigious enough to sell Final Fantasy games anymore.
Expectations for this game were huge.  It's the first main Final Fantasy game in nearly 4 years and the fact that it can't break into the 90's is a bitter dissaspointment.  I have not played the game itself but I think it's obvious that the game can't be that great otherwise most game websites and magazines would not have the courage to give it a less than stellar review, that is a risk as we saw from the Jeff Gerstmann debacle.  Final Fantasy XIII obviously had to have done something horrendously wrong for it to not get by on it's name alone.
Had this not been a Final Fantasy game I have no doubt that it would probably get a 6 or a 5.
A 82 is a negligible difference between the other games in the series?  SInce when has one of the main games in the series ever scored so low?  Final Fantasy's reviews set a new low for the franchise and reviews do matter.

I think sales will probably be pretty high but this will be the turning point of the Final Fantasy series.  People will look back at Final Fantasy XIII and realize that the Final Fantasy games just aren't as good anymore as they used to and thus will not anticipate future Final Fantasy games as highly.  The Final Fantasy name itself is tarnished by Final Fantasy XIII's lukewarm reception.
I have not provided a video game comparison because there is no comparison, at least not in the USA.  Those sales figures include Japanese sales and Dragon Quest is much much much more popular in Japan than it is in the USA.
In the USA, the Final Fantasy name is by far the most well known of any RPG franchise(with the possible exception of Pokemon if you want to say that even counts).  That is likely to change though due to Final Fantasy's failure to earn scores which live up to the series' expectations.

I ****ing love quote pyramids.

[amrose2]

I'm amazed anyone is surprised this game sucks. It's a JRPG for one, so the ground it is built on is based on a system used by Square (and every JRPG actually) has used since SNES.

Graphics and a pretty UI is all that is improved on.

Also, mainstream review websites/magazines mean nothing nowadays. They are obligated to give good reviews to big games because the companies pay them money for advertising. They should never ever be used as a basis to judge if a game is good or not.

Modifié par amrose2, 08 mars 2010 - 06:33 .

[Gandalf-the-Fabulous]

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...

Busomjack wrote...

Busomjack wrote...

Fexelea wrote...

Busomjack wrote...

Fexelea wrote...

Busomjack wrote...

Fexelea wrote...

Busomjack wrote...

Fexelea wrote...

OP's fail is hilarious.

You know, reviewers can say whatever they wish. It all comes down to sales. And sales, they are going to have more than plenty of.

Remember the Matrix sequels?  The Matrix Reloaded had excellent ticket sales despite it being a crap sequel because it rode the hype train of being the sequel to a critically acclaimed movie.  The third Matrix movie however did not gross nearly as high at the box office and the franchise effectively ceased to exist after that with the exception of some crappy MMORPG that lasted less than a year.

Final Fantasy XIII will probably sell reasonably well, but lack of quality will hurt the franchise in the future.  You can only be dissapointed so many times before you refuse to throw your money away.

How does the Matrix, which is a "movie-phenomenon" compare or become a moral equivalent to a "game-phenomenon". The two industries are radically different, the audiences and consumer habits are worlds appart, and the definition of "success" is also incredibly different. Unequal business models and target market means that comparisson is not applicable, as the reactions of one audience cannot be taken as model behavior for the other.

Your first post claims that the failure of Final Fantasy XIII is "official", based on selected reviews that are then filtered through your "84 is bad" meter. Two points:

1. Final Fantasy XIII's success is yet to be determined. It will be determined by sales and profitability, not by reviews.

2. You do not have approppriate sales numbers to make any "official" conclusion even if we were to accept any claim by some random person in the internetz as such.

 

It's because consumers are not stupid that they'll pay loyalty to a franchise that has continues to let them down.  There is a reason why the Final Fantasy brand is prestigious.  It's because the game has built up a good reputation since many of the games have been positive.  That reputation is not invincible though and Final Fantasy 13's dissapointing reception relative to other games in the series will hurt future Final Fantasy titles.

The fact that Final Fantasy XIII has recieved significantly lower critical acclaim than past titles proves it's a failure.  Keep in mind that this is not just a score of 8.3.  It is a score of 8.3 for a Final Fantasy game where often times reviewers feel pressure to mark up review scores due to pressure from corporate sponsors and rabid fanboyism.

The numbers have yet to come in but I have followed enough similar market trends to say confidently that Final Fantasy XIII is a failure.

You are making assumptions. "Consumers are not stupid" is a gross generalization and an irrelevant remark.

• We do not know how consumers feel about Final Fantasy XIII yet.
  
• You have no sales number to prove a financial failure
  
• You do not have consumer feedback to prove dissapointment.

Final Fantasy XIII "metacritic" is at 82. How is that lower than the:

Xbox 360: Final Fantasy XI (2006) 66
Sony PSP: Final Fantasy Anniversary Edition (2007) 67
Wii: Final Fantasy IV: The After Years (2009) 69
Nintendo DS: Final Fantasy III (2006) 77
Sony PSP: Dissidia Final Fantasy (2009) 79
Playstation: Final Fantasy Origins (2003) 79
Playstation: Final Fantasy Anthology (1999) 80
GameCube: Final Fantasy: Crystal Chronicles (2004) 80

There are plenty of FF titles that don't even make it to the 80 mark. And the most highly rated titles are only 1 point above (Final Fantasy XII)

"Similar market trends"? And which might those be? If you want to position yourself as a marketing expert with insight into the gaming market and the particular target market of Final Fantasy games, then you should substantiate your opinion with facts.

Even if you were such expert, your opinion on what the future holds remains an opinion, and there is nothing "official" about it regarding the success or failure of a brand. You do not have any data to back up what remain as your assumptions.

Consumers are not stupid is relevant.  Consumers are what drive the industry and hype can only sell a title lacking in quality for so long.  I don't have the numbers but reviews of the game strongly indicate that this game brings the series to a new low.  Simple put, Final Fantasy has jumped the shark.
When I said lowest of all the Final Fantasies, I meant of the main titles.  Not the spin offs.  I guess I didn't consider Final Fantasy XI.  I hardly even consider that a main game in the series but fine.

I think I have already explained what I meant when I said similar market trends.  I was referring to how a game that falls below expectations, even slightly will make anticipation for the next entry in the franchise significantly less.  That is why the third Matrix movie fell well below expectations in terms of sales.
What I am saying is obviously my opinion, but I think past evidence brings enough merit to my opinion that I can safely say that it is a strong one.

"Consumers are not stupid" is not relevant to your statement since you have no data to backup your assumptions (which are based on second hand information) regarding what this game is or not, therefore the perceptions or reactions of consumers cannot be measured. So:

1. You cannot determine the quality of the game for yourself since you have not played it. (Unless you have the JP version in which case you should base your opinion on your own experience rather than on your interpretations of what others have written)
2. You have come to a conclusion without any first hand experience. Your second hand sources are also based on selective observation. You are ignoring the multitude of good reviews based on your personal bias as to what is relevant.
3. You are determining that the Metascore of 82 is the lowest based on what you consider "true installments" of the series. The difference even when applying your selective criteria is negligible.
4. Review scores and reception are not the same thing. Even IF the reviews are terrible and after playing it everyone hates it and loses all interest in the series, as long as the sales numbers are high the title could still be a success. What "is", what "could be" and what "will be" are not the same thing.
5. You have not provided any facts regarding similar market trends. The Matrix movies are not a moral equivalent to this particular series. A moral equivalent would be Dragon Quest:

• Dragon Quest V metacritic is 84 (Sold 2.8 million)
  
• Dragon Quest VII metacritic is 78 (Sold 4.1 million)
  
• According to your logic, since 78 is the lowest score the series ever got, the next installment should FAIL and DQ VII is a failure right? WRONG:
  
• Dragon Quest VII metacritic is 89 and it sold 4.4 million.

If you want to talk about market trends, make relevant comparisons. If you want your opinion to be considered as a "strong one", inform yourself properly on how to avoid fallacious reasoning.

If you want your opinion to be "official". Get a job in the relevant office.

I know that quality is a factor in consumer purchase making decisions and that since Final Fantasy XIII has lowered that quality standard, the Final Fantasy title will no longer be prestigious enough to sell Final Fantasy games anymore.
Expectations for this game were huge.  It's the first main Final Fantasy game in nearly 4 years and the fact that it can't break into the 90's is a bitter dissaspointment.  I have not played the game itself but I think it's obvious that the game can't be that great otherwise most game websites and magazines would not have the courage to give it a less than stellar review, that is a risk as we saw from the Jeff Gerstmann debacle.  Final Fantasy XIII obviously had to have done something horrendously wrong for it to not get by on it's name alone.
Had this not been a Final Fantasy game I have no doubt that it would probably get a 6 or a 5.
A 82 is a negligible difference between the other games in the series?  SInce when has one of the main games in the series ever scored so low?  Final Fantasy's reviews set a new low for the franchise and reviews do matter.

I think sales will probably be pretty high but this will be the turning point of the Final Fantasy series.  People will look back at Final Fantasy XIII and realize that the Final Fantasy games just aren't as good anymore as they used to and thus will not anticipate future Final Fantasy games as highly.  The Final Fantasy name itself is tarnished by Final Fantasy XIII's lukewarm reception.
I have not provided a video game comparison because there is no comparison, at least not in the USA.  Those sales figures include Japanese sales and Dragon Quest is much much much more popular in Japan than it is in the USA.
In the USA, the Final Fantasy name is by far the most well known of any RPG franchise(with the possible exception of Pokemon if you want to say that even counts).  That is likely to change though due to Final Fantasy's failure to earn scores which live up to the series' expectations.

I ****ing love quote pyramids.

[*]Ah what the hell one more time

[Busomjack]

amrose2 wrote...

I'm amazed anyone is surprised this game sucks. It's a JRPG for one, so the ground it is built on is based on a system used by Square (and every JRPG actually) has used since SNES.

Graphics and a pretty UI is all that is improved on.

Also, mainstream review websites/magazines mean nothing nowadays. They are obligated to give good reviews to big games because the companies pay them money for advertising. They should never ever be used as a basis to judge if a game is good or not.

You're right about how game pulications are obligated to give good reviews to games that have huge financial backings.  Reviewers give them good reviews out of fear that they'll lose their sponsors.

The fact that Final Fantasy XIII managed to only get an 82 despite this pressure means that the game is very likely very bad.
Imagine what the score would've been had this not been a Final Fantasy game.

[Gandalf-the-Fabulous]

amrose2 wrote...

I'm amazed anyone is surprised this game sucks. It's a JRPG for one, so the ground it is built on is based on a system used by Square (and every JRPG actually) has used since SNES.

Graphics and a pretty UI is all that is improved on.

Also, mainstream review websites/magazines mean nothing nowadays. They are obligated to give good reviews to big games because the companies pay them money for advertising. They should never ever be used as a basis to judge if a game is good or not.

I totally agree, I am shocked at how the series manages to get so many high scores dispite the fact that the whole series is total pig swill.

[Fexelea]

Busomjack wrote...

I know that quality is a factor in consumer purchase making decisions and that since Final Fantasy XIII has lowered that quality standard, the Final Fantasy title will no longer be prestigious enough to sell Final Fantasy games anymore.

You have no first hand experience to make that assessment, nor do you have any data to back it up beyond your interpretation of what a score by a reviewer means and how that affects a market that you do not have any expertise on.

Busomjack wrote...

Expectations for this game were huge.  It's the first main Final Fantasy game in nearly 4 years and the fact that it can't break into the 90's is a bitter dissaspointment.

Dissapointment to whom? You do not have any valid data to back this further assumption.

Busomjack wrote...

I have not played the game itself but I think it's obvious that the game can't be that great otherwise most game websites and magazines would not have the courage to give it a less than stellar review, that is a risk as we saw from the Jeff Gerstmann debacle.

Your further assumptions regarding what reviewers can and cannot do are also unfounded and based on speculation. If you look at the reviews, plenty of websites have given it terrible reviews, and other stellar ones. You are making a biased assessment as to what is relevant or acceptable or what should/should not be from an outsider's point of view.

Busomjack wrote...
Final Fantasy XIII obviously had to have done something horrendously wrong for it to not get by on it's name alone.

Define "get by". Reviewers might be particularly harsh because of the title itself. Reviewers might not be JRPG fans. The important audience are the consumers, and nobody knows what they think yet.

Busomjack wrote...
Had this not been a Final Fantasy game I have no doubt that it would probably get a 6 or a 5.

More unsupported assumptions and speculation.

Busomjack wrote...
A 82 is a negligible difference between the other games in the series?  SInce when has one of the main games in the series ever scored so low?  Final Fantasy's reviews set a new low for the franchise and reviews do matter.

FF XI has an 85. 0.3 is negligible. The highest scoring FF title has a 92, certainly not a series-breaking difference, and we still do not have enough reviews to make a fair comparisson. Your futher assessment of the importance of reviews is unjustified and unfounded by any empirical research.

Busomjack wrote...
I think sales will probably be pretty high but this will be the turning point of the Final Fantasy series.  People will look back at Final Fantasy XIII and realize that the Final Fantasy games just aren't as good anymore as they used to and thus will not anticipate future Final Fantasy games as highly.  The Final Fantasy name itself is tarnished by Final Fantasy XIII's lukewarm reception.

Your predictions of the future are not only contradictory but unfounded. If sales are "pretty high" then reception is not "lukewarm". Industry term "reception" means sales, the media's "reception" is anecdotal.

Busomjack wrote...
I have not provided a video game comparison because there is no comparison, at least not in the USA.
 Those sales figures include Japanese sales and Dragon Quest is much much much more popular in Japan than it is in the USA.

That is irrelevant. The games have the same patterns that you describe: one title does not review well after very successful predecessors, then the following title is a smashing hit regardless, which debunks your theory that reviews = future sales.

Busomjack wrote...
In the USA, the Final Fantasy name is by far the most well known of any RPG franchise.  That is likely to change though due to Final Fantasy's failure to earn scores which live up to the series' expectations.

I do not see how your perception of a failure in unsubstantiaded expectation leveraged on metacritic scores will affect brand-awareness.

[Twitchmonkey]

I bought FFXIII. Sometimes a JRPG is fun for a change of pace, and Square makes pretty solid JRPGs.



So, in summary, i r exitd.

[Seraosha]

Busomjack wrote...

IGN only gave it a 8.3 while gamespot gave it an 8.5.

Those scores are pretty terrible for a game that is supposed to be the RPG of the year.

Or to put it another way: "OMG, ONLY EIGHTPOINTFIVE! DISASTER!"

I am increasingly coming to despise videogames and their fan clubs precisely because of drivel like this. One of the worst things the internet has unleashed on the world is the mind numbingly depressing penchant for review score analysis and either the mindless love or mindless anger at said scores.

[Gabey5]

meh from what ive hear dthe english voice actors arent annoying as hell.....dont get me started on star ocean

[Default137]

As a former FF fan...

**** sucks.

They set it up so you can actually win every fight by just using auto-battle ( including bosses ), and there is an option in the Menu to set this as base option, so you never even see the fights happen, you just suddenly get EXP. Add in the fact that the first six something hours were just tutorial about their INNOVATIVE COMBAT SYSTUM, followed by a literally straight line from quest to quest all the way to the end and yeah, this is definitely not a good game.

I suppose I could be nice, and say it looks really pretty, but who cares how pretty it looks? I'm halfway through the game right now, and you can tell exactly how the story will end, none of the characters are interesting anymore, because they just kept spamming their faults in the early game, and told us their life history and all their problems midway through the game, and just bleh.

The series has been dying for awhile, this is literally the last nail in the coffin for me, its basically a $60 interactive movie, where your interaction is HOLD DOWN LEFT ANALOG STICK TO SEE THE PRETTY MANGIRLS.

Hey look, someone made a map of the game.

Modifié par Default137, 08 mars 2010 - 08:56 .

[MerinTB]

Default137 wrote...

They set it up so you can actually win every fight by just using auto-battle ( including bosses ), and there is an option in the Menu to set this as base option, so you never even see the fights happen, you just suddenly get EXP. .

Dude, wait, that's a drawback to you?

I think that feature is AWESOME!  You just made me more excited about the game.

Wizard's Crown, an old SSI CRPG from the early 80's on the PC (well, on computers, early 80's it was IBM, Apple, Commodore, etc. - and not "PC" as the IBM PC wasn't the standard by far), had this option as well and I LOVED IT.

Any game with random battles constantly hitting you should have this as an option!  If there's one thing I get tired of quickly, it's random encounters.

Whee!  Thanks for the heads-up!  I hope this is indeed a feature of the game!

[trueKieran]

How can you even consider playing a FF game... I mean... seriously....

[Busomjack]

[quote]Fexelea wrote...

[quote]Busomjack wrote...

I know that quality is a factor in consumer purchase making decisions and that since Final Fantasy XIII has lowered that quality standard, the Final Fantasy title will no longer be prestigious enough to sell Final Fantasy games anymore. [/quote]

You have no first hand experience to make that assessment, nor do you have any data to back it up beyond your interpretation of what a score by a reviewer means and how that affects a market that you do not have any expertise on.

[quote]Busomjack wrote...

Expectations for this game were huge.  It's the first main Final Fantasy game in nearly 4 years and the fact that it can't break into the 90's is a bitter dissaspointment. [/quote]

Dissapointment to whom? You do not have any valid data to back this further assumption.

[quote]Busomjack wrote...

I have not played the game itself but I think it's obvious that the game can't be that great otherwise most game websites and magazines would not have the courage to give it a less than stellar review, that is a risk as we saw from the Jeff Gerstmann debacle. [/quote]

Your further assumptions regarding what reviewers can and cannot do are also unfounded and based on speculation. If you look at the reviews, plenty of websites have given it terrible reviews, and other stellar ones. You are making a biased assessment as to what is relevant or acceptable or what should/should not be from an outsider's point of view.


[quote]Busomjack wrote...
Final Fantasy XIII obviously had to have done something horrendously wrong for it to not get by on it's name alone. [/quote]

Define "get by". Reviewers might be particularly harsh because of the title itself. Reviewers might not be JRPG fans. The important audience are the consumers, and nobody knows what they think yet.

[quote]Busomjack wrote...
Had this not been a Final Fantasy game I have no doubt that it would probably get a 6 or a 5. [/quote]

More unsupported assumptions and speculation.

[quote]Busomjack wrote...
A 82 is a negligible difference between the other games in the series?  SInce when has one of the main games in the series ever scored so low?  Final Fantasy's reviews set a new low for the franchise and reviews do matter. [/quote]

FF XI has an 85. 0.3 is negligible. The highest scoring FF title has a 92, certainly not a series-breaking difference, and we still do not have enough reviews to make a fair comparisson. Your futher assessment of the importance of reviews is unjustified and unfounded by any empirical research.

[quote]Busomjack wrote...
I think sales will probably be pretty high but this will be the turning point of the Final Fantasy series.  People will look back at Final Fantasy XIII and realize that the Final Fantasy games just aren't as good anymore as they used to and thus will not anticipate future Final Fantasy games as highly.  The Final Fantasy name itself is tarnished by Final Fantasy XIII's lukewarm reception. [/quote]

Your predictions of the future are not only contradictory but unfounded. If sales are "pretty high" then reception is not "lukewarm". Industry term "reception" means sales, the media's "reception" is anecdotal.

[quote]Busomjack wrote...
I have not provided a video game comparison because there is no comparison, at least not in the USA.
 Those sales figures include Japanese sales and Dragon Quest is much much much more popular in Japan than it is in the USA. [/quote]

That is irrelevant. The games have the same patterns that you describe: one title does not review well after very successful predecessors, then the following title is a smashing hit regardless, which debunks your theory that reviews = future sales.

[quote]Busomjack wrote...
In the USA, the Final Fantasy name is by far the most well known of any RPG franchise.  That is likely to change though due to Final Fantasy's failure to earn scores which live up to the series' expectations.[/quote]

I do not see how your perception of a failure in unsubstantiaded expectation leveraged on metacritic scores will affect brand-awareness.





 1.I do have data.  In fact, you posted your own data which backed up my point.  Final Fantasy is the lowest scoring main game in the series contemporary history.  How is that not setting a new low?  Final Fantasy XIII may not be the death blow, but it does bring the series in a downward spiral.

2.Lots of reviewes I have read have expressed dissapointment as have from people who have already played the game.  More so than with other Final Fantasy games.  This is the first Final Fantasy game I can think of where the quality of the game has seriously been in doubt.

3.I am not being biased, I am just stating the fact that the game has recieved lower scores than other games in the main Final Fantasy series.  I would interpret that as a step back for the series rather than a step forward?  In fact, I just read yet another review from NBC which just gave it a 7/10.  They claimed that it is too linear and the dialogue is too melodramatic and annoying.  Exactly what many people feared from this game.

4.Yes what I say is speculative but I thnk it is backed up by strong evidence nonetheless.  These review websites are corporate funded and thus risk the loss of advertising funding if they ****** off their sponsors too much.  We saw it with Jeff Gerstmann's firing after he gave Kane & Lynch a mediocre review and we saw it again when Ubisoft demanded good reviews for Assassin's Creed II or else.  Square/Enix has huge financial backing.  If the best reviewers can give this game are low eights despite this pressure then that is just pathetically bad.

5.The fact that a MMORPG like FFXI can score higher than Final Fantasy XIII is pretty sad considering the former has a very selective audience.  Final Fantasy XIII reception is a strong indication that it is a step back for the series.  One or two reviewers can be wrong but it's hard to dissagree with virtually all of them.

6.No contradiction at all.  Sales being "pretty good" may be ok for most games but they're not good by Final Fantasy standards.  I think the game will ultimately be profitable but not by the standards that we typically see from Final Fantasy games and that will hurt the franchise.  Perhaps it will hurt it for the better and Square/Enix will actually make the next Final Fantasy a game that doesn't suck completely.

7.The games you provided are Japanese sales.  The market is very different in Japan than it is in the USA.  There are tons of Japanese games that sell extremely well in their native coutnry and then go on to bomb in the USA and vice versa.
Final Fantasy XIII isn't just some obscure title.  It is the next entry in one of the most critically acclaimed JRPG series of all time.  It's failure will not easily be forgiven by most except the most rampant fanboys.

Reviews obviously play a role in sales otherwise companies wouldn't put pressure on game publications for good reviews as we saw from companies like EA and Ubisoft.

8.I'm not "expecting" a failure, the game already has failed in that it has not lived up to the critical acclaim of past entries in the series.  So unless your baseless theory that reviews never affect sales becomes a reality, I believe this will have a detrimental impact on the franchise and I say good riddance to bad rubbish.

[JHorwath]

Never really been a huge FF fan.  If you ask me the old nes and snes games were the best and VII was fun.  As far as JRPG's go I haven't found one that I want to quite some time.  The one that has my attention is Resonance of Fate.

Modifié par JHorwath, 08 mars 2010 - 08:54 .

[MerinTB]

trueKieran wrote...

How can you even consider playing a FF game... I mean... seriously....

I wonder the same thing about people who play GTA for fun.  Gangster crap and glorifying criminals probably upsets me more than anything a JRPG does that makes people start screaming "THE SUCK!"

Different strokes for different folks.

[Dichotomize]

Ehhh... WRPG > JRPG

[Bathead]

To be fair, I read those supposedly "bad" reviews, and even though the authors said they had some problems with the game, they also said they highly reccomend getting it as, though it may have problems, they said in the long run, putting up with those problems was worth it.

[fairandbalancedfan]

I am surprised the_one hasn't come in with his obvious Japanese everything fanboyism and gave you guys a good ol looking down on the masses speeches. I fear for this world.

[Fexelea]

[quote]Fexelea wrote...

[quote]Busomjack wrote...

I know that quality is a factor in consumer purchase making decisions and that since Final Fantasy XIII has lowered that quality standard, the Final Fantasy title will no longer be prestigious enough to sell Final Fantasy games anymore. [/quote]

You have no first hand experience to make that assessment, nor do you have any data to back it up beyond your interpretation of what a score by a reviewer means and how that affects a market that you do not have any expertise on.

[quote]Busomjack wrote...

Expectations for this game were huge.  It's the first main Final Fantasy game in nearly 4 years and the fact that it can't break into the 90's is a bitter dissaspointment. [/quote]

Dissapointment to whom? You do not have any valid data to back this further assumption.

[quote]Busomjack wrote...

I have not played the game itself but I think it's obvious that the game can't be that great otherwise most game websites and magazines would not have the courage to give it a less than stellar review, that is a risk as we saw from the Jeff Gerstmann debacle. [/quote]

Your further assumptions regarding what reviewers can and cannot do are also unfounded and based on speculation. If you look at the reviews, plenty of websites have given it terrible reviews, and other stellar ones. You are making a biased assessment as to what is relevant or acceptable or what should/should not be from an outsider's point of view.


[quote]Busomjack wrote...
Final Fantasy XIII obviously had to have done something horrendously wrong for it to not get by on it's name alone. [/quote]

Define "get by". Reviewers might be particularly harsh because of the title itself. Reviewers might not be JRPG fans. The important audience are the consumers, and nobody knows what they think yet.

[quote]Busomjack wrote...
Had this not been a Final Fantasy game I have no doubt that it would probably get a 6 or a 5. [/quote]

More unsupported assumptions and speculation.

[quote]Busomjack wrote...
A 82 is a negligible difference between the other games in the series?  SInce when has one of the main games in the series ever scored so low?  Final Fantasy's reviews set a new low for the franchise and reviews do matter. [/quote]

FF XI has an 85. 0.3 is negligible. The highest scoring FF title has a 92, certainly not a series-breaking difference, and we still do not have enough reviews to make a fair comparisson. Your futher assessment of the importance of reviews is unjustified and unfounded by any empirical research.

[quote]Busomjack wrote...
I think sales will probably be pretty high but this will be the turning point of the Final Fantasy series.  People will look back at Final Fantasy XIII and realize that the Final Fantasy games just aren't as good anymore as they used to and thus will not anticipate future Final Fantasy games as highly.  The Final Fantasy name itself is tarnished by Final Fantasy XIII's lukewarm reception. [/quote]

Your predictions of the future are not only contradictory but unfounded. If sales are "pretty high" then reception is not "lukewarm". Industry term "reception" means sales, the media's "reception" is anecdotal.

[quote]Busomjack wrote...
I have not provided a video game comparison because there is no comparison, at least not in the USA.
 Those sales figures include Japanese sales and Dragon Quest is much much much more popular in Japan than it is in the USA. [/quote]

That is irrelevant. The games have the same patterns that you describe: one title does not review well after very successful predecessors, then the following title is a smashing hit regardless, which debunks your theory that reviews = future sales.

[quote]Busomjack wrote...
In the USA, the Final Fantasy name is by far the most well known of any RPG franchise.  That is likely to change though due to Final Fantasy's failure to earn scores which live up to the series' expectations.[/quote]

I do not see how your perception of a failure in unsubstantiaded expectation leveraged on metacritic scores will affect brand-awareness. [/quote]

----------


[quote]Busomjack wrote...

 1.I do have data.  In fact, you posted your own data which backed up my point.  Final Fantasy is the lowest scoring main game in the series contemporary history.  How is that not setting a new low?  Final Fantasy XIII may not be the death blow, but it does bring the series in a downward spiral. [/quote]

1. You haven't provided any data to back up your original point. Final Fantasy is not an "official" failure. If you are changing your argument radically on the face of reality, then kindly state so. You are also indulging in selective observation, which means you are setting your own criteria and ignoring other facts so that the numbers match the observation you want to make. That is fallacious reasoning. You should consider that
A. There are not enough scores to make a fair comparisson yet.
B. Your interpretation of the scores' impact on the series in unfounded and based solely on your very subjective opinion.

[quote]Busomjack wrote...
2.Lots of reviewes I have read have expressed dissapointment as have from people who have already played the game.  More so than with other Final Fantasy games.  This is the first Final Fantasy game I can think of where the quality of the game has seriously been in doubt. [/quote]

You have no empirical data to prove the "dissapointment" of the fanbase at large. You can only speak from what you observe, that would be a very limited sample given the release date. How about you wait until you have facts before you make assessments?

[quote]Busomjack wrote...
3.I am not being biased, I am just stating the fact that the game has recieved lower scores than other games in the main Final Fantasy series.  I would interpret that as a step back for the series rather than a step forward?  In fact, I just read yet another review from NBC which just gave it a 7/10.  They claimed that it is too linear and the dialogue is too melodramatic and annoying.  Exactly what many people feared from this game. [/quote]

Yes you are being biased. You have expressed you want this title to fail, and have tried to talk it into failure by assumptions, presumptions and selective observation. You didn't state the fact that the game has received a lower score than the other series (see point A above): you were proffessing the failure of the game. Big difference. Your "many people" remarks are also unfounded.

[quote]Busomjack wrote...
4.Yes what I say is speculative but I thnk it is backed up by strong evidence nonetheless.  These review websites are corporate funded and thus risk the loss of advertising funding if they ****** off their sponsors too much.  We saw it with Jeff Gerstmann's firing after he gave Kane & Lynch a mediocre review and we saw it again when Ubisoft demanded good reviews for Assassin's Creed II or else.  Square/Enix has huge financial backing.  If the best reviewers can give this game are low eights despite this pressure then that is just pathetically bad. [/quote]

You obviously understand little of the game industry and publishing as well. The cases you mention made headlines for a reason. If it was common practice nobody would raise an eyebrow. "The best reviewers"? And who might you be to determine who hold that title amongst the very subjective opinion-based reviewer brigade? There are plenty of 9s and 10s. Again, selective observation on your part, and assumptions and presumptions regarding pressure that journalist are under.

[quote]Busomjack wrote...
5.The fact that a MMORPG like FFXI can score higher than Final Fantasy XIII is pretty sad considering the former has a very selective audience.  Final Fantasy XIII reception is a strong indication that it is a step back for the series.  One or two reviewers can be wrong but it's hard to dissagree with virtually all of them. [/quote]

Having a selective audience has nothing to do with scores. That's a strawman argument. "Virtually all of them", you say. Well let's go to Metacritic. There are 34 reviews (still not enough to make a fair comparisson with other titles). How many rate FF XIII above 85? 20 of them do!. So, since 20 s bigger than the remaning 14, the majority you mention is clearly on the "good game!" side.

[quote]Busomjack wrote...
6.No contradiction at all.  Sales being "pretty good" may be ok for most games but they're not good by Final Fantasy standards.  I think the game will ultimately be profitable but not by the standards that we typically see from Final Fantasy games and that will hurt the franchise.  Perhaps it will hurt it for the better and Square/Enix will actually make the next Final Fantasy a game that doesn't suck completely. [/quote]

Yes that was a contradiction "prety good" is not synonymous with "lukewarm". Besides the facts that you have no numbers to back up your assumptions, you should note that wqe can consider historical sales of this title as: FFXIII has sold "as expected" in Japan. That means it will be taken as a "good" title and another title will be made and nobody will think this was the "step of doom". Your argument keeps changing by the minute here.

[quote]Busomjack wrote...
7.The games you provided are Japanese sales.  The market is very different in Japan than it is in the USA.  There are tons of Japanese games that sell extremely well in their native coutnry and then go on to bomb in the USA and vice versa.
Final Fantasy XIII isn't just some obscure title.  It is the next entry in one of the most critically acclaimed JRPG series of all time.  It's failure will not easily be forgiven by most except the most rampant fanboys.  [/quote]

Dragon Quest is not an obscure title either. And it is a far more relevant comparisson regarding review scores and sales than any you have provided. Again, you have no data to back up your "failure" assessment.

[quote]Busomjack wrote...
Reviews obviously play a role in sales otherwise companies wouldn't put pressure on game publications for good reviews as we saw from companies like EA and Ubisoft. [/quote]

You have no empirical data to equate reviews with sales. "Play a role" is very different to "means that".

[quote]Busomjack wrote...
8.I'm not "expecting" a failure, the game already has failed in that it has not lived up to the critical acclaim of past entries in the series.  [/quote]

You don't have any daa to back up your claims that the reviewes are a failure. A failure to whom? Do you know what SE had determined as success regarding reviews? Or do you think that they care more about reviews than sales? Reviews mean nothing until the sales numbers are in.

[quote]Busomjack wrote...
So unless your baseless theory that reviews never affect sales [/quote]

Let me stop you right there. I never said such thing. Paraphrasing me and responding to that is a very weak attempt to take any high ground on your part. It fails, btw.

[quote]Busomjack wrote...
becomes a reality, I believe this will have a detrimental impact on the franchise and I say good riddance to bad rubbish. [/quote]

You can believe whatever you wish. That does not make it "official". If you want to sway others to agree with your opinion, you should provide relevant facts. You have not, you have provided assumptions.

[addiction21]

It's official Waffles > Pancakes