798 réponses à ce sujet

[Zulu_DFA]

GreenDragon37 wrote...
TIM is displaying arrogance.

Sure he does.

And Kahoku and others display ignorance (aka bliss).

[GreenDragon37]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

GreenDragon37 wrote...
TIM is displaying arrogance.

Sure he does.

And Kahoku and others display ignorance (aka bliss).

Kahoku wasn't arrogant. He just trying to find out what happened to his men. I think that you are looking too deep into this thing.

[Zulu_DFA]

MTN Dew Fanatic wrote...

The new bolded parts.

Come again?

[ADLegend21]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

ADLegend21 wrote...

Cerberus WAS the black ops of the Alliance until they broke away and became their own Organization led by the Illusive man. That's why the council nor the alliance trust them because they did infact go rogue and the alliance couldn't stop them and that's why most of your crew is Ex-alliance.

Why would they break away?

I'm sorry, did you not Meet TIM? why would he take Orders from anyone?

[GreenDragon37]

ADLegend21 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

ADLegend21 wrote...

Cerberus WAS the black ops of the Alliance until they broke away and became their own Organization led by the Illusive man. That's why the council nor the alliance trust them because they did infact go rogue and the alliance couldn't stop them and that's why most of your crew is Ex-alliance.

Why would they break away?

I'm sorry, did you not Meet TIM? why would he take Orders from anyone?

Exactly. A Black Ops unit must have supperiors above them. TIM must have been tired of taking orders. Besides, they are very self-sustainable, rich in credits, even. Why wouldn't they?

[Zulu_DFA]

GreenDragon37 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

GreenDragon37 wrote...
TIM is displaying arrogance.

Sure he does.

And Kahoku and others display ignorance (aka bliss).

Kahoku wasn't arrogant.

I said he was ignorant.

He just trying to find out what happened to his men.

Which kinda proves my point.

He also entered negotiations with an unsavory party (aka TSB), and later divulged information of sensitive nature to a party outside of the Alliance chain of command (aka you). While on active duty. Which makes him a traitor.
 

I think that you are looking too deep into this thing.

ME3 will tell, I suppose.

[MTN Dew Fanatic]

"By logic.



Game dialogue: Cerberus = Humanity

Game dialogue: Cerberus =/= Alliance

Conclusion: Alliance =/= Humanity



* = for "one and the same"

=/= for "separate from"

[Zulu_DFA]

ADLegend21 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

ADLegend21 wrote...

Cerberus WAS the black ops of the Alliance until they broke away and became their own Organization led by the Illusive man. That's why the council nor the alliance trust them because they did infact go rogue and the alliance couldn't stop them and that's why most of your crew is Ex-alliance.

Why would they break away?

I'm sorry, did you not Meet TIM? why would he take Orders from anyone?

Because they give him money.

Besides, it isn't necessary that he is packed orders at on the daily basis. Udina doesn't seem to take much orders from anyone. Or is he rogue too?

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 02 juillet 2010 - 02:26 .

[didymos1120]

Humanity: a species that, if you're going by the modern anatomical form, has been around for ~200,000 years.

Cerberus:  A couple decades old.  Not a species.  Not even an individual human.  It's a pro-human organization, the members of which are but the tiniest fraction of humanity as a whole. 

It's a figure of speech.  The statement "Cerberus IS Humanity" cannot and never will be literally true.   How is this not obvious?

[GreenDragon37]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

ADLegend21 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

ADLegend21 wrote...

Cerberus WAS the black ops of the Alliance until they broke away and became their own Organization led by the Illusive man. That's why the council nor the alliance trust them because they did infact go rogue and the alliance couldn't stop them and that's why most of your crew is Ex-alliance.

Why would they break away?

I'm sorry, did you not Meet TIM? why would he take Orders from anyone?

Because they give him money.

No. Private Interests give him money, now. Most likely more funding and backing than the Alliance ever did. He dosen't need the Alliance anymore. 

Modifié par GreenDragon37, 02 juillet 2010 - 02:26 .

[Zulu_DFA]

GreenDragon37 wrote...
No. Private Interests give him money, now. Most likely more funding and backing than the Alliance ever did. He dosen't need the Alliance anymore. 

Read the OP again.

[Zulu_DFA]

didymos1120 wrote...

Humanity: a species that, if you're going by the modern anatomical form, has been around for ~200,000 years.

Cerberus:  A couple decades old.  Not a species.  Not even an individual human.  It's a pro-human organization, the members of which are but the tiniest fraction of humanity as a whole. 

It's a figure of speech.  The statement "Cerberus IS Humanity" cannot and never will be literally true.   How is this not obvious?

But it's said in the game dialogue!!!

(To clarify: I am disputing against taking any single quote from game dialogue or Codex as an absolute proof of anything. My here theory is based on a more complex analysis. I defy such counter-arguments as "Kahoku said..." and "Ashley said...")

[MTN Dew Fanatic]

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

[quote]didymos1120 wrote...

Humanity: a species that, if you're going by the modern anatomical form, has been around for ~200,000 years.

Cerberus:  A couple decades old.  Not a species.  Not even an individual human.  It's a pro-human organization, the members of which are but the tiniest fraction of humanity as a whole. 

It's a figure of speech.  The statement "Cerberus IS Humanity" cannot and never will be literally true.   How is this not obvious?
[/quote]

But it's said in the game dialogue!!!

(To clarify: I am disputing against taking any single quote from game dialogue or Codex as an absolute proof of anything. My here theory is based on a more complex analysis. I defy such counter-arguments as "Kahoku said..." and "Ashley said...")[/quote]
You don't make any sense in your reasoning.

[Zulu_DFA]

MTN Dew Fanatic wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

Humanity: a species that, if you're going by the modern anatomical form, has been around for ~200,000 years.

Cerberus:  A couple decades old.  Not a species.  Not even an individual human.  It's a pro-human organization, the members of which are but the tiniest fraction of humanity as a whole. 

It's a figure of speech.  The statement "Cerberus IS Humanity" cannot and never will be literally true.   How is this not obvious?

But it's said in the game dialogue!!!

(To clarify: I am disputing against taking any single quote from game dialogue or Codex as an absolute proof of anything. My here theory is based on a more complex analysis. I defy such counter-arguments as "Kahoku said..." and "Ashley said...")[/quote]
You don't make any sense in your reasoning.

Yes, because the "But it's said in the game dialogue!!!" part is a sarcasm.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 02 juillet 2010 - 02:43 .

[MTN Dew Fanatic]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

It's funny to read tons of posts about how swell it would be to jump Cerberus and "go back to the Alliance", when there is a strong possibility that Shepard has never left the Alliance. Instead, he got promoted from special forces division to intelligence agency.

But nobody tells Shepard?

[Slayer299]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

By logic.

Game dialogue: Cerberus = Humanity
Game dialogue: Cerberus =/= Alliance
Conclusion: Alliance =/= Humanity

* = for "one and the same"
  =/= for "separate from"

Do I make myself clear?

Actually, no, you don't. Since I don't remember any game dialogue or Codex entries, beyond TIM's arrogant little statements that Cerberus is Humanity that would explain that belief at all.

Also, how is the Alliance seperate from Humanity? The Systems Alliance represents Humanity and the Codex backs that up quite clearly. "The Systems Alliance is an independent
supranational government representing the interests of humanity as a
whole (outside of the Sol System). The Alliance is responsible for the
governance and defense of all extra-solar colonies and stations." 

For Cerberus is seperate from the Alliance, that I agree with.

[Zulu_DFA]

MTN Dew Fanatic wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

It's funny to read tons of posts about how swell it would be to jump Cerberus and "go back to the Alliance", when there is a strong possibility that Shepard has never left the Alliance. Instead, he got promoted from special forces division to intelligence agency.

But nobody tells Shepard?

Damn bureaucracy!

Besides, he doesn't need to know. You don't tell your field agents anything important, because they might get caught by the enemy. If TIM told Shepard as much, he'd have to assign him to a desk job with Cerbebus Command. Shepard would be sitting in a deep underground bunker / space station and seeing the sunlight only in recreation areas in the form of holographic decor.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 02 juillet 2010 - 03:00 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Slayer299 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

By logic.

Game dialogue: Cerberus = Humanity
Game dialogue: Cerberus =/= Alliance
Conclusion: Alliance =/= Humanity

* = for "one and the same"
  =/= for "separate from"

Do I make myself clear?

Actually, no, you don't. Since I don't remember any game dialogue or Codex entries, beyond TIM's arrogant little statements that Cerberus is Humanity that would explain that belief at all.

Also, how is the Alliance seperate from Humanity? The Systems Alliance represents Humanity and the Codex backs that up quite clearly. "The Systems Alliance is an independent
supranational government representing the interests of humanity as a
whole (outside of the Sol System). The Alliance is responsible for the
governance and defense of all extra-solar colonies and stations." 

For Cerberus is seperate from the Alliance, that I agree with.

Actually, that pretty syllogism was only for MTN Dew Fan. Your post is redundant, sorry.

[MTN Dew Fanatic]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

MTN Dew Fanatic wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

It's funny to read tons of posts about how swell it would be to jump Cerberus and "go back to the Alliance", when there is a strong possibility that Shepard has never left the Alliance. Instead, he got promoted from special forces division to intelligence agency.

But nobody tells Shepard?

Damn bureaucracy!

Besides, he doesn't need to know. You don't tell your field agents anything important, because they might get caught by the enemy. If TIM told Shepard as much, he'd have to assign him to a desk job with Cerbebus Command. Shepard would be sitting in a deep underground bunker / space station and seeing the sunlight only in recreation areas in the form of holographic decor.

That must be sarcasm, because that's just silly and you have no evidence to support it.

P.S.Slayer 299's post is hardly redundant.

[Ecael]

As much arguing as I often get into with Zulu here, I agree with him on this topic. It seems like the quickest plot twist to get Shepard working with the Alliance again in Mass Effect 3.

The Corsairs are simply there to give the Alliance plausible deniability in case someone tries to make a connection between the Alliance and Cerberus - the Alliance could simply say "Hey, look, our secret organization is the Corsairs, we have nothing to do with Cerberus!"

The fact that sectors of Cerberus can go rogue when they're already a rogue organization makes things even more suspicious. Even if humanity back on Earth or in the Alliance disavows connection with Cerberus, Cerberus is still made up of humans.

Humanity is a three-headed beast whose parts are made up of the Alliance, Corsairs and Cerberus.

[lazuli]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Game dialogue during the intended last plot converstation have stated, that Humanity and Cerberus are one and the same. Which means that, provided Cerberus and the Alliance are separate from each other, the Alliance is also separate from Humanity.

So this is sarcasm?

[Zulu_DFA]

Ecael wrote...

As much arguing as I often get into with Zulu here, I agree with him on this topic.

Just solving the plotholes, dear Ecael. The salvageable ones.

This one is actully so simple, I mean, there are so numeric little hints on that. Here is a couple of new ones, never before mentioned in this thread:

1. Jacob's "loyalty" end report.

2. In the end of Redemption TSB says Feron has been working with an "Alliance woman". This, however, I am unsure of. Could be a mere typo, but also could be an intentional hint as there are only two characters that may be refered as "woman": Miranda and Liara, both of whom are working for/with Ceberus at the moment.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 02 juillet 2010 - 03:29 .

[Ecael]

Zulu_DFA wrote...


This one is actully so simple, I mean there are so numeric little hints on that. Here is a couple of new ones, never before mentioned in this thread:

1. Jacob's "loyalty" end report.

2. In the end of Redemption TSB says Feron has been working with an "Alliance woman". This, however, I am unsure of. Could be a mere typo, but also could be an intentional hint As ther are only two characters that may be refered as "woman": Miranda and Liara, both of whom are working for/with Ceberus at the moment.

I noticed that loyalty end report as well, but I didn't think twice about it until Kasumi's loyalty mission and the greybox, which contains a picture of a floating Reaper and Keiji saying "If the Council ever got wind of this... the Alliance could be implicated."

EDIT: Also the fact that the Illusive Man tells you that an Alliance science team helped find the Derelict Reaper in the first place.

Just solving the plotholes, dear Ecael. The salvageable ones.

It's easier to say that some are "salvageable" or not when you only know 2/3rds of the story. And by the time Mass Effect 3 is out, it would have been far too late to change anything anyway.

Modifié par Ecael, 02 juillet 2010 - 03:27 .

[Zulu_DFA]

lazuli wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Game dialogue during the intended last plot converstation have stated, that Humanity and Cerberus are one and the same. Which means that, provided Cerberus and the Alliance are separate from each other, the Alliance is also separate from Humanity.

So this is sarcasm?

Yes.

The two "game dialogue" premises return logiaclly correct but obviously false conclusion. which means that one, or both of the premises contain false information.

As many posters have pointed out, "Cerberus is Humanity" is an apparently false statement uttered by TIM out of arrogance. But one false "game dialogue" item suggests that any other may also be false. And as long as the "game dialogue" remains some character's opinion, just like "Cerberus = Humanity" is TIM's opinion, it may be false.

The point of this thread is to state that "Cerberus is separate from the Alliance" game dialogue is nothing more than an opinion, shared by certain characters, and is false.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 02 juillet 2010 - 03:30 .

[didymos1120]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

But it's said in the game dialogue!!!

(To clarify: I am disputing against taking any single quote from game dialogue or Codex as an absolute proof of anything. My here theory is based on a more complex analysis. I defy such counter-arguments as "Kahoku said..." and "Ashley said...")

OK. Good to know.  I thought you'd just totally lost it.