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[JohnnyBeGood2]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Slayer299 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...
By logic.
Game dialogue: Cerberus = Humanity
Game dialogue: Cerberus =/= Alliance
Conclusion: Alliance =/= Humanity
* = for "one and the same"
  =/= for "separate from"
Do I make myself clear?

Actually, that pretty syllogism was only for MTN Dew Fan. Your post is redundant, sorry.

Good thing to, because it has an awful lot of fail about it.

[Slayer299]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Slayer299 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

By logic.

Game dialogue: Cerberus = Humanity
Game dialogue: Cerberus =/= Alliance
Conclusion: Alliance =/= Humanity

* = for "one and the same"
  =/= for "separate from"

Do I make myself clear?

Actually, no, you don't. Since I don't remember any game dialogue or Codex entries, beyond TIM's arrogant little statements that Cerberus is Humanity that would explain that belief at all.

Also, how is the Alliance seperate from Humanity? The Systems Alliance represents Humanity and the Codex backs that up quite clearly. "The Systems Alliance is an independent
supranational government representing the interests of humanity as a
whole (outside of the Sol System). The Alliance is responsible for the
governance and defense of all extra-solar colonies and stations." 

For Cerberus is seperate from the Alliance, that I agree with.

Actually, that pretty syllogism was only for MTN Dew Fan. Your post is redundant, sorry.

How is it redundant If I'm asking for clarification of what you said? 

[lazuli]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

As many posters have pointed out "Cerberus is Humanity" is an apparently false statement uttered by TIM out of arrogance. But one false "game dialogue" items suggests that any other may also be false. And as long as the "game dialogue" remains some character's opinion, just like "Cerberus = Humanity" is TIM's opinion, it may be false.

The point of this thread is to state that "Cerberus is separate from the Alliance" game dialogue is nothing more than an opinion, shared by certain characters, and is false.

Arguably some characters are more reliable than others.  The Kaidan/Ashley reaction has me wondering.  It will be interesting to see how the pieces come together in ME3.

[The BS Police]

Cerberus is no longer a part of the Alliance as it was made clear in Mass Effect 1 that they went Rogue.

[snfonseka]

BigBody26 wrote...

Why would the alliance allow you to kill so many Cerberus operatives and shut down so many of their experiments in ME1 then? If your idea is correct though, I still hope we get a chance to shut Cerberus down, then TIM reveals the truth to us(that Udina knew about it all along), then we get to kill Udina! Oh the satisfaction that would bring.

Sometimes "collateral damage" is unavoidable.

The BS Police wrote...

Cerberus is no longer a part of the
Alliance as it was made clear in Mass Effect 1 that they went
Rogue.

"Going rogue" can be used to take any of the heat of their activities off from " Alliance". Otherwise all will blame "Alliance"...

Modifié par snfonseka, 02 juillet 2010 - 03:37 .

[MTN Dew Fanatic]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Ecael wrote...

As much arguing as I often get into with Zulu here, I agree with him on this topic.

Just solving the plotholes, dear Ecael. The salvageable ones.

This one is actully so simple, I mean, there are so numeric little hints on that. Here is a couple of new ones, never before mentioned in this thread:

1. Jacob's "loyalty" end report.

2. In the end of Redemption TSB says Feron has been working with an "Alliance woman". This, however, I am unsure of. Could be a mere typo, but also could be an intentional hint as there are only two characters that may be refered as "woman": Miranda and Liara, both of whom are working for/with Ceberus at the moment.

 

That whole mission is riddled with plotholes.

[Zulu_DFA]

Slayer299 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...
Actually, that pretty syllogism was only for MTN Dew Fan. Your post is redundant, sorry.

How is it redundant If I'm asking for clarification of what you said? 

All the clarification you need is in the OP, and my numerous posts throughout this thread, including the last page.

lazuli wrote...
Arguably some characters are more reliable than others.

Arguably.

Ashley/Kaidan may be a kind-hearted person, but "just a soldier". On the other hand, TIM maybe a manipulative bastard, but he is definitely better informed. Who is more reliable?

MTN Dew Fanatic wrote...
That whole mission is riddled with plotholes.

Look who is talking.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 02 juillet 2010 - 03:39 .

[Zulu_DFA]

The BS Police wrote...

Cerberus is no longer a part of the Alliance as it was made clear in Mass Effect 1 that they went Rogue.

Captain Anderson and Admiral Hackett weren't so sure. Even in "2" Anderson says Cerberus can't be trusted, not that they went rogue. Kinda shows his paragonish disapproval of their methods but can't do anything about it.

Like you nick, BTW, makes me a bit nervous.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 02 juillet 2010 - 03:46 .

[MTN Dew Fanatic]

MTN Dew Fanatic wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

MTN Dew Fanatic wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

It's funny to read tons of posts about how swell it would be to jump Cerberus and "go back to the Alliance", when there is a strong possibility that Shepard has never left the Alliance. Instead, he got promoted from special forces division to intelligence agency.

But nobody tells Shepard?

Damn bureaucracy!

Besides, he doesn't need to know. You don't tell your field agents anything important, because they might get caught by the enemy. If TIM told Shepard as much, he'd have to assign him to a desk job with Cerbebus Command. Shepard would be sitting in a deep underground bunker / space station and seeing the sunlight only in recreation areas in the form of holographic decor.

That must be sarcasm, because that's just silly and you have no evidence to support it.

P.S.Slayer 299's post is hardly redundant.

You haven't acknowledged this and yet you say I am filled with holes?

[Ecael]

MTN Dew Fanatic wrote...

That whole mission is riddled with plotholes.

That's Zulu's word, which apparently now means "I don't want to talk about it anymore because this part of the game sucks" to him.

As for Jacob's loyalty mission, it's likely that Shepard wasn't the first to land there, considering that nebula is near geth space. Ronald Taylor could have picked up the geth weapons and equipped the brainwashed guards and mechs with them.

[snfonseka]

Lord_Metal666 wrote...

Actually it does sound very plausable.

How else would they get the plans to the Normandy, and Anderson did find out you were alive far to quickly for my liking.

It has already been stated in the game that Cerberus is funded by certain high placed civilian pers, and high ranking Alliance military personal. I'm thinking Cerberus is to the Systems Alliance, what the CIA is to the US government.

Not CIA or NSA or any other we know... something more secretive than that. The entire world knows that CIA / NSA represent US govenment.

[Zulu_DFA]

Ecael wrote...

MTN Dew Fanatic wrote...

That whole mission is riddled with plotholes.

That's Zulu's word, which apparently now means "I don't want to talk about it anymore because this part of the game sucks" to him.

Quite the opposite. Strictly speaking, there are plotholes and there are "plotholes". Of the latter I am always ready to have a most civil discussion, because they are salvageable. And of the former I don't have much to say, but am quite ready to repeat it incessantly: "These plotholes make ME2 suck."

Ecael wrote...
As for Jacob's loyalty mission, it's likely that Shepard wasn't the first to land there, considering that nebula is near geth space. Ronald Taylor could have picked up the geth weapons and equipped the brainwashed guards and mechs with them.

Come on, it's not a plothole. It's a -



It doesn't need to be solved.

[Zulu_DFA]

snfonseka wrote...

Lord_Metal666 wrote...

Actually it does sound very plausable.

How else would they get the plans to the Normandy, and Anderson did find out you were alive far to quickly for my liking.

It has already been stated in the game that Cerberus is funded by certain high placed civilian pers, and high ranking Alliance military personal. I'm thinking Cerberus is to the Systems Alliance, what the CIA is to the US government.

Not CIA or NSA or any other we know... something more secretive than that. The entire world knows that CIA / NSA represent US govenment.

And there we go again: Systems Alliance is not US in space. I covered as much in the OP.

[Inthatplace]

Interesting thought. We'll see in the third game, I suspect.

[Ecael]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Quite the opposite. Strictly speaking, there are plotholes and there are "plotholes". Of the latter I am always ready to have a most civil discussion, because they are salvageable. And of the former I don't have much to say, but am quite ready to repeat it incessantly: "These plotholes make ME2 suck."

As I mentioned last page, the players only know 2/3rds of the story. To act as if you already know how the whole series will play out and declare some minor element a plothole (and not a "plothole" in quotes) is ignorant, at best.

Ecael wrote...
As for Jacob's loyalty mission, it's likely that Shepard wasn't the first to land there, considering that nebula is near geth space. Ronald Taylor could have picked up the geth weapons and equipped the brainwashed guards and mechs with them.

Come on, it's not a plothole. It's a -

retcon.jpg

It doesn't need to be solved.

You'd probably call it a plothole anyway had no one tried to explain it.

Next up, Shepard stopping time by pressing the menu/pause button being a plothole...

Modifié par Ecael, 02 juillet 2010 - 04:01 .

[snfonseka]

AsheraII wrote...

It's possible, but in that case it's still odd how it needs funds. And I still believe TIM is actually an alien, possibly a rogue Reaper.

A mini reaper???

applehug wrote...

While this is an interesting theory I
highly doubt it's true. Just look at Hades Dogs. Why would the Alliance
let it's black ops organization kill a high ranking member with no
repercussions or any attempt to stop it?

If he is really dead... that is because he knew something that he doesn't suppose to know.

[Pacifien]

Ecael wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Ecael wrote...
As for Jacob's loyalty mission, it's likely that Shepard wasn't the first to land there, considering that nebula is near geth space. Ronald Taylor could have picked up the geth weapons and equipped the brainwashed guards and mechs with them.

Come on, it's not a plothole. It's a -

retcon.jpg

It doesn't need to be solved.

You'd probably call it a plothole anyway had no one tried to explain it.

Not sure if Zulu in particular would have called it a plothole, but I'm sure that's why any explanation at all was thrown into the game, specifically because people would have complained if it hadn't been addressed. I'd have much preferred chalking it up to gameplay changes and never saying anything about it at all, but nooo, not less more, more more!

[Ecael]

Pacifien wrote...

Ecael wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Ecael wrote...
As for Jacob's loyalty mission, it's likely that Shepard wasn't the first to land there, considering that nebula is near geth space. Ronald Taylor could have picked up the geth weapons and equipped the brainwashed guards and mechs with them.

Come on, it's not a plothole. It's a -

retcon.jpg

It doesn't need to be solved.

You'd probably call it a plothole anyway had no one tried to explain it.

Not sure if Zulu in particular would have called it a plothole, but I'm sure that's why any explanation at all was thrown into the game, specifically because people would have complained if it hadn't been addressed. I'd have much preferred chalking it up to gameplay changes and never saying anything about it at all, but nooo, not less more, more more!

People will complain either way, so the writers decided to include something about it instead of just dismissing it.

[Zulu_DFA]

Ecael wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Quite the opposite. Strictly speaking, there are plotholes and there are "plotholes". Of the latter I am always ready to have a most civil discussion, because they are salvageable. And of the former I don't have much to say, but am quite ready to repeat it incessantly: "These plotholes make ME2 suck."

As I mentioned last page, the players only know 2/3rds of the story. To act as if you already know how the whole series will play out and declare some minor element a plothole (and not a "plothole" in quotes) is ignorant, at best.

That I agree with. Basically it's my own argument at the major ME1 "plothole" about Saren not going Palpatine-style on the Council: "wait till ME3. I bet Saren needed to find Ilos to ges some sort of key/password to whatever he was up to with the Citadel Conrol".

Ecael wrote...
As for Jacob's loyalty mission, it's likely that Shepard wasn't the first to land there, considering that nebula is near geth space. Ronald Taylor could have picked up the geth weapons and equipped the brainwashed guards and mechs with them.

Come on, it's not a plothole. It's a -

retcon.jpg

It doesn't need to be solved.

You'd probably call it a plothole anyway had no one tried to explain it.

I agree with Pacifien. The awkward explanation behind it the writers were ordered to come up with actually makes it a plothole. But I prefer to outright ignore it, so that the thermal ammo stays a retcon with me. Besides, I mostly eliminated it by editing the "coalesced.ini"

Ecael wrote...
Next up, Shepard stopping time by pressing the menu/pause button being a plothole...

Shall we not turn this thread into a general plotholes discussion, though? I don't want it to come to a glorious end yet. [Toombs]Not today![/Toombs]

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 02 juillet 2010 - 04:18 .

[Pacifien]

Ecael wrote...
People will complain either way, so the writers decided to include something about it instead of just dismissing it.

Well, if people were going to complain either way, the writers really should have taken into consideration which response would have appeased me more than those other people.

[snfonseka]

Jax Sparrow wrote...

Reasons the premise of the OP is false.

-) Alliance would not investigate the possibility of Cerberus abducting colonists on Horizon.

 - This is because only high ranking officials in "Alliance" know the connection between "Alliance" and "Cerberus".
   Something like this... "Should you or any member of your Cerberus force be caught or killed, the Secretary will disavow  all knowledge of your actions."

Jax Sparrow wrote...

-) Timmy, would not be the 'head' of Cerberus... the 'head' of the CIA for instance is a politically appointed.

- Why are you compairing "Cerberus" to "CIA"... The entire wolrd knows that "CIA" works for US. There is no deniablity in that...

Jax Sparrow wrote...

-) The amount of 'money' Timmy threw at the Lazarus Project in rebuilding Shepard AND the Normandy is cost prohibitive especially for a black ops.  That amount of money 'disappearing' out of the Alliance budget would raise red flags on very many individual's desks.

"Cerberus" can't use "Alliance" budget, if so that can be back tracked. So "Cerberus" need to find their own ways.

Jax Sparrow wrote...

-) A true black ops would never invest so much money... even if, by some miracle, they could finance it... into resurrecting one individual, no matter how 'Christ' like people might think (s)he is.

-Since when you start working for "Black Ops" to understand their motives ?

[Zulu_DFA]

Pacifien wrote...

Ecael wrote...
People will complain either way, so the writers decided to include something about it instead of just dismissing it.

Well, if people were going to complain either way, the writers really should have taken into consideration which response would have appeased me more than those other people.

 This^.

[Pacifien]

I don't feel like reading through 11 pages and, for all I know, I actually commented in this thread already. But my take on any Cerberus/Alliance connection is purely from unspoken gains. Cerberus might have nudged the Alliance into building the Normandy. People in the Alliance might suspect or outright know that Cerberus is pulling strings here, but they will ignore it just to see the Normandy built. Cerberus might pass someone in the Alliance some intel, but if the word "Cerberus" is never uttered in the exchanges, then for all the Alliance cares, the information dropped down from the heavens onto their laps. And when something goes horribly wrong for Cerberus such that it becomes a public affair (such as Toombs and Akuze), the politicians can play their public investigations and hearings, metaphorically slap Cerberus across the head, but in the end, the Illusive Man has lost nothing. He doesn't care if Cerberus's name is dragged through the mud once in awhile so long as no one can shut down the operation and he still manages to push his agendas through.

[Whole Particle]

So does Cerberus happen to have an "Official Reason" for going rogue? (Because I'm still looking for one.)

[MTN Dew Fanatic]

I still don't see why Shepard would be promoted and not be told that he/she was.