798 réponses à ce sujet

[Zulu_DFA]

snfonseka wrote...

Jax Sparrow wrote...

Reasons the premise of the OP is false.

-) Alliance would not investigate the possibility of Cerberus abducting colonists on Horizon.

 - This is because only high ranking officials in "Alliance" know the connection between "Alliance" and "Cerberus".
   Something like this... "Should you or any member of your Cerberus force be caught or killed, the Secretary will disavow  all knowledge of your actions."

Besides, if the Alliance wasn't "investigating" Cerberus, those slimy aliens could get suspicious...

snfonseka wrote...

Jax Sparrow wrote...

-) Timmy, would not be the 'head' of Cerberus... the 'head' of the CIA for instance is a politically appointed.

- Why are you compairing "Cerberus" to "CIA"... The entire wolrd knows that "CIA" works for US. There is no deniablity in that...

Besides, who says TIM wasn't politically appointed? Only he knows who appointed him. Try asking him that, after he explains Akuze to you.

snfonseka wrote...

Jax Sparrow wrote...

-) The amount of 'money' Timmy threw at the Lazarus Project in rebuilding Shepard AND the Normandy is cost prohibitive especially for a black ops.  That amount of money 'disappearing' out of the Alliance budget would raise red flags on very many individual's desks.

"Cerberus" can't use "Alliance" budget, if so that can be back tracked. So "Cerberus" need to find their own ways.

And they find them in the form of "private contributions", and "front companies", that get some leeways and freeways from time to time. I bet the chairman of the Alliance anti-corruption committee is a Cerberus agent.

snfonseka wrote...

Jax Sparrow wrote...

-) A true black ops would never invest so much money... even if, by some miracle, they could finance it... into resurrecting one individual, no matter how 'Christ' like people might think (s)he is.

-Since when you start working for "Black Ops" to understand their motives ?

Aside from Mr. Sparrow's obviously being an expert in black ops, there is so much more probability that such a resurrection of one individual will be financed by an on-the-run rogue splinter group, which all the Galaxy wants to get rid off. Such organizations usually have much extra money and a lot of problems with what to spend them on...

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 02 juillet 2010 - 05:42 .

[Zulu_DFA]

MTN Dew Fanatic wrote...

I still don't see why Shepard would be promoted and not be told that he/she was.

Because it's TIM's big little secret, that he doesn't want to compromise. Much less than he wants the C-Base blown up.

It's called "security protocol". Anyone who knows big secrets must not be allowed out of sight.

TIM doesn't have more reason to trust Shepard, than Shepard has to trust TIM.

But TIM needs Shepard. Hence Lazarus project. Hence persuasion to work with Cerberus. Hence Udina's "political implications".

[MTN Dew Fanatic]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

MTN Dew Fanatic wrote...

I still don't see why Shepard would be promoted and not be told that he/she was.

Because it's TIM's big little secret, that he doesn't want to compromise. Much less than he wants the C-Base blown up.

It's called "security protocol". Anyone who knows big secrets must not be allowed out of sight.

TIM doesn't have more reason to trust Shepard, than Shepard has to trust TIM.

But TIM needs Shepard. Hence Lazarus project. Hence persuasion to work with Cerberus. Hence Udina's "political implications".

If he would've wanted Shepard to complete the mission in a way that he would have preferred(collector base always being secured for Cerberus?), he would have wanted more sway with Shepard by being honest with Shepard is a good way to sway him one way or the other.

Modifié par MTN Dew Fanatic, 02 juillet 2010 - 04:57 .

[snfonseka]

Even though this theory is logical and practical, I doubt BW writers clear things up in ME3. They will keep us in "dark" regarding this matter, because that will be beneficial to BW if they have plans to expand ME universe.

[MTN Dew Fanatic]

snfonseka wrote...

Even though this theory is logical and practical, I doubt BW writers clear things up in ME3. They will keep us in "dark" regarding this matter, because that will be beneficial to BW if they have plans to expand ME universe.

Exactly, so we may never know, so for now nobody is either right or wrong.

Modifié par MTN Dew Fanatic, 02 juillet 2010 - 05:08 .

[The Unfallen]

Who cares if Cerberus is or is not apart of the Alliance? I hate them both equally.

[Zulu_DFA]

MTN Dew Fanatic wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

MTN Dew Fanatic wrote...

I still don't see why Shepard would be promoted and not be told that he/she was.

Because it's TIM's big little secret, that he doesn't want to compromise. Much less than he wants the C-Base blown up.

It's called "security protocol". Anyone who knows big secrets must not be allowed out of sight.

TIM doesn't have more reason to trust Shepard, than Shepard has to trust TIM.

But TIM needs Shepard. Hence Lazarus project. Hence persuasion to work with Cerberus. Hence Udina's "political implications".

If he would've wanted Shepard to complete the mission in a way that he would have preferred(collector base always being secured for Cerberus?), he would have wanted more sway with Shepard by being honest with Shepard is a good way to sway him one way or the other.

As I said, keeping Cerberus/Alliance connection secret may present to TIM of more importance that some Collector Base. Cerberus is pro-Human after all...

And, as has been said multiple times in this thread already, telling this secret to Shepard can be of no gain at all, since Shepard may think that TIM is lying to secure his loyalty!

"I'm your mom. Gimme ten bucks!" Do you believe me already?

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 02 juillet 2010 - 05:14 .

[MTN Dew Fanatic]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

MTN Dew Fanatic wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

MTN Dew Fanatic wrote...

I still don't see why Shepard would be promoted and not be told that he/she was.

Because it's TIM's big little secret, that he doesn't want to compromise. Much less than he wants the C-Base blown up.

It's called "security protocol". Anyone who knows big secrets must not be allowed out of sight.

TIM doesn't have more reason to trust Shepard, than Shepard has to trust TIM.

But TIM needs Shepard. Hence Lazarus project. Hence persuasion to work with Cerberus. Hence Udina's "political implications".

If he would've wanted Shepard to complete the mission in a way that he would have preferred(collector base always being secured for Cerberus?), he would have wanted more sway with Shepard by being honest with Shepard is a good way to sway him one way or the other.

As I said, keeping Cerberus/Alliance connection secret may present to TIM of more importance that some Collector Base. Cerberus is pro-Human after all...

And, as has been said multiple times in this thread already, telling this secret to Shepard can be of no gain at all, since Shepard may think that TIM is lying to secure his loyalty!

"I'm your mom. Gimme ten bucks!" Do you believe me already?

Bold Section: How would keeping that secret be more important than all of that technology?!

Underlined Section: You can't back something like that with facts, so that isn't a good metaphor, sorry.

[Zulu_DFA]

MTN Dew Fanatic wrote...

How would keeping that secret be more important than all of that technology?!

Base is unknown quantity. It's probable that there might be something of value there. But read the Praetorian description in the Codex: Nano-disassemblers do short work on it. So may be with the Base. Giving up the secret, however definitely impairs the operational flexibility and security of the organization, as well as politically taints the parent organization, possibly beyond recovery.

MTN Dew Fanatic wrote...
You can't back something like that with facts, so that isn't a good metaphor, sorry.

Or, you see, you want some facts now, my greedy boy. You want TIM to expose the whole organization just in hopes that it might bring some emotional comfort to you? Do you think TIM is an idiot? No, he is quite the opposite.

[MTN Dew Fanatic]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

MTN Dew Fanatic wrote...

How would keeping that secret be more important than all of that technology?!

Base is unknown quantity. It's probable that there might be something of value there. But read the Praetorian description in the Codex: Nano-disassemblers do short work on it. So may be with the Base. Giving up the secret, however definitely impairs the operational flexibility and security of the organization, as well as politically taints the parent organization, possibly beyond recovery.

If the base did have nano-disassemblers, why not disassemble the whole base killing Shepard and his squad, while it will kill the Collectors, it would rid the greatest threat to the Reapers? How do you know Shepard would be guaranteed to divulge such a secret?

[NephilimNexus]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

nremies1 wrote...

The ease with which all these people end up joining Cerberus...

All these best people. Don't forget that part.

Reminds me of Section 9 from the Ghost in the Shell series - especially the original Manga, which is a lot more revealing. 

It is shown that while Section 9 is officially part of Japan's espianage group, Major Kusanagi's actual team rides the line between being actual government agents and private contractors who happen to be working for the government.  Batou himself notes at the start "We're Section 9 - we're the one's who have to get our hands dirty."

The opening scene in the movie is Kusanagi assassinating a foreign diplomat right under the nose of Japan's own police force, at the secret bequest of their own Ministry of Foreign Affairs, who then help to cover it all up.

At the end of the novel one of Kusanagi's operations goes bad, ends up on TV and embarasses the government.  The entire agencyis officially disbanded to make good for PR, with Kusanagi even going so far as to fake her own death.  Afterwards a lot of paperwork gets shuffled and everyone just ends up getting rehired into a newly formed "Anti-Terrorist Group" that does exactly the same work as before.

I like that someone used the Batman/Dark Knight
analogy.  Commissioner Gordon has no idea where Batman lives, where he
gets his funding, or anything substantial about him.  And Gordon has
standing orders from the Mayor to "arrest the vigilante known as
Batman."  And whenever the poop hits the
propeller in Gotham, the Batsignal goes up & Gordon
gets an annonymous text message later letting him know where to pick up
the hog-tied bad guys a few hours later.  Or was the Spiderman?

The Alliance gives a great song & dance about how they have broken all connections with Cerberus, but anytime you talk with anyone from Cerberus we find out that this is far from true.  TIM himself admits to contacting the Alliance on several occasions to feed them news & updates.  More importantly, the Alliance listens to him.  When he feeds them information on Shepard, they respond.  When he informs them of an attack, they show up.  When he tells them to rescure the survivors after Jacob's loyalty mission, they send a rescue team.  It would appear that despite their claims to the contrary, TIM has a secret hotline to the Alliance.

While the Alliance's claim to be (officially) anti-Cerberus may be true, Cerberus is clearly not an anti-Alliance group by a long shot.  Obviously there are some high placed people within the Alliance who know this & aren't about to turn away their assistance when it is offered - and the entire plot of ME2 is Cerberus doing exactly that.  They're helping the Alliance whether they want help or not.

Also factor in that a lot of ME2 takes place in the Terminus systems, where the Council has zero authority.  Not even Shepard's Specter status give him/her any extra clout out there.  If the Collectors are doing evil deeds out there then there is nothing the Alliance can do about it (as pointed out in the dialog with Kaiden/Ashley on Horizon).  It's outside their juristiction.  But as for the, uh, Harbringer's so-called "plan?"  The Illusive Man has no juristiction.  He'll find them and they'll make them squeal!  I know the squealers when I see them, and... yeah.

[Ecael]

Pacifien wrote...

Ecael wrote...
People will complain either way, so the writers decided to include something about it instead of just dismissing it.

Well, if people were going to complain either way, the writers really should have taken into consideration which response would have appeased me more than those other people.

Sarcasm or not, that's the kind of statement that discourages the writers from ever listening to fan feedback on their story writing.

Expect more written retcons in Mass Effect 3!

Whole Particle wrote...

So does Cerberus happen to have an "Official Reason" for going rogue? (Because I'm still looking for one.)

Red tape.

"The Council was always holding us back..."

[JohnnyBeGood2]

I think Cerberus as part of the Alliance is a renegade players wish... I assume BW will not be granting your wish this christmas.

[Ecael]

JohnnyBeGood2 wrote...

I think Cerberus as part of the Alliance is a renegade players wish... I assume BW will not be granting your wish this christmas.

So how else is Shepard going to get back into the Alliance and/or Council when everyone's assumed he's been working undercover with Cerberus for the last two years?

[JohnnyBeGood2]

Ecael wrote...

JohnnyBeGood2 wrote...
I think Cerberus as part of the Alliance is a renegade players wish... I assume BW will not be granting your wish this christmas.

So how else is Shepard going to get back into the Alliance and/or Council when everyone's assumed he's been working undercover with Cerberus for the last two years?

Did they assume he was undercover for 2 years? Ok, so he proves he was rebuilt etc, that he's not lying.. the council has already circumspectly accepted his word.... they probably have intel corroborating his story.

I really hope Cerberus is not Alliance... the amount of legitimacy that would give some people on the forums who always stand up for TIM would be the death of me.

Modifié par JohnnyBeGood2, 03 juillet 2010 - 09:28 .

[Ecael]

JohnnyBeGood2 wrote...

Ecael wrote...

JohnnyBeGood2 wrote...
I think Cerberus as part of the Alliance is a renegade players wish... I assume BW will not be granting your wish this christmas.

So how else is Shepard going to get back into the Alliance and/or Council when everyone's assumed he's been working undercover with Cerberus for the last two years?

Did they assume he was undercover for 2 years? Ok, so he proves he was rebuilt etc, that he's not lying.. the council has already circumspectly accepted his word.... they probably have intel corroborating his story.

I really hope Cerberus is not Alliance... the amount of legitimacy that would give some people on the forums who always stand up for TIM would be the death of me.

Since when did the Council ever care enough about Shepard to send people after him?



Also, what's wrong with The Illusive Man? He's supposed to be a shady character.

[JohnnyBeGood2]

Ecael wrote...

JohnnyBeGood2 wrote...

Ecael wrote...

JohnnyBeGood2 wrote...
I think Cerberus as part of the Alliance is a renegade players wish... I assume BW will not be granting your wish this christmas.

So how else is Shepard going to get back into the Alliance and/or Council when everyone's assumed he's been working undercover with Cerberus for the last two years?

Did they assume he was undercover for 2 years? Ok, so he proves he was rebuilt etc, that he's not lying.. the council has already circumspectly accepted his word.... they probably have intel corroborating his story.
I really hope Cerberus is not Alliance... the amount of legitimacy that would give some people on the forums who always stand up for TIM would be the death of me.

Since when did the Council ever care enough about Shepard to send people after him?
Also, what's wrong with The Illusive Man? He's supposed to be a shady character.

TIM's a monster! For Alliance to be covertly in the sack with him would be like saying: "Hey yo Paragons who played Mass Effect 1 and 2... some news for yo: 'JAM IT UP YA DATE!!!! YA!!!!"
All 5 of my Paragon Sheps would have nothing to fight for (which the rene's, of course, think would be swell!)
lol

Modifié par JohnnyBeGood2, 03 juillet 2010 - 09:35 .

[Fizzeler]

I have long pondered this theory since I did the Cerberus missions in ME1 (after I beat ME2), seems ideal for Cerberus to be "Rogue" on the surface, but really kinda Black Ops underneath



Just look at Overlord, do you think the Alliance would want other races to know that was going on.



Look at how many humans distrust aliens, would it make sense then to have a top secret organization dedicated to preserve humanities superiority? I would think so.



And I support Cerberus because they don't let things like ethics and morals get in the way of their research (again would the Alliance like to be linked to this, no, but would they like the results? Maybe)

[JohnnyBeGood2]

Fizzeler wrote...
I have long pondered this theory since I did the Cerberus missions in ME1 (after I beat ME2), seems ideal for Cerberus to be "Rogue" on the surface, but really kinda Black Ops underneath
Just look at Overlord, do you think the Alliance would want other races to know that was going on.
Look at how many humans distrust aliens, would it make sense then to have a top secret organization dedicated to preserve humanities superiority? I would think so.
And I support Cerberus because they don't let things like ethics and morals get in the way of their research (again would the Alliance like to be linked to this, no, but would they like the results? Maybe)

Like I said: All the Rene's will be whistling dixie if this was the case... meh

[Costin_Razvan]

Like I said: All the Rene's will be whistling dixie if this was the case... meh

Close minded are we? How about if I told you I finished ME2 with 100% Paragon, how about if I told you that out of all the major decisions I only took 3 renegade ones: Killing Vido, letting David with Archer and Keeping the Base.

Seriously, to call someone a renegade just for a few choices out of all those you are presented with is just insultin. I have my moral codes, thank you, but I am also a realist.

Reality is that we don't know what we are going to face. Even under the idea that we will win no matter what then I still preserve the base, because it might just happen to play a role in saving quite a good number of lives in ME3, same for David and same for Vido.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 03 juillet 2010 - 10:11 .

[JohnnyBeGood2]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Like I said: All the Rene's will be whistling dixie if this was the case... meh

Close minded are we? How about if I told you I finished ME2 with 100% Paragon, how about if I told you that out of all the major decisions I only took 3 renegade ones: Killing Vido, letting David with Archer and Keeping the Base.
Seriously, to call someone a renegade just for a few choices out of all those you are presented with is just insultin. I have my moral codes, thank you, but I am also a realist.
Reality is that we don't know what we are going to face. Even under the idea that we will win no matter what then I still preserve the base, because it might just happen to play a role in saving quite a good number of lives in ME3, same for David and same for Vido.

We are talking about whether Cerberus is Alliance? Would you be happy as a Paragon if you found out that the Alliance had actually adopted Cerberus' methods?
Cos that's whatsa goin on here.

[Ecael]

JohnnyBeGood2 wrote...

We are talking about whether Cerberus is Alliance? Would you be happy as a Paragon if you found out that the Alliance had actually adopted Cerberus' methods?
Cos that's whatsa goin on here.

The Alliance didn't adopt Cerberus' methods. That's why they made Cerberus in the first place.

It's also why Admiral Kahoku and Ashley/Kaidan get stonewalled when they try to talk to the Alliance about Cerberus.

Also, there's no need to talk about how it's unfair to Paragons, because you spent all of Mass Effect 2 working for Cerberus (and all of Mass Effect 1 working for the Alliance and Council). It would make sense if all the Renegade choices from Mass Effect 1 that default ME2Shepard has were the worst choices, and if all the Paragon choices from Mass Effect 2 that default ME3Shepard will probably have were the worst ones.

[JohnnyBeGood2]

Ecael wrote...

JohnnyBeGood2 wrote...
We are talking about whether Cerberus is Alliance? Would you be happy as a Paragon if you found out that the Alliance had actually adopted Cerberus' methods?
Cos that's whatsa goin on here.

The Alliance didn't adopt Cerberus' methods. That's why they made Cerberus in the first place.
It's also why Admiral Kahoku and Ashley/Kaidan get stonewalled when they try to talk to the Alliance about Cerberus.
Also, there's no need to talk about how it's unfair to Paragons, because you spent all of Mass Effect 2 working for Cerberus (and all of Mass Effect 1 working for the Alliance and Council). It would make sense if all the Renegade choices from Mass Effect 1 that default ME2Shepard has were the worst choices, and if all the Paragon choices from Mass Effect 2 that default ME3Shepard will probably have were the worst ones.

1. Cerberus' methods cast a deep shadow over the Alliance if Cerberus is a black ops and supported extension of the Alliance.
2. stonewalled? So you are saying that their questions were stonewalled? Is that your interpreation of the event or the undeniable meaning?
3. "make sense" seems to mean here: "it's ok if ME1 default rene choices are fail in ME2" and "it's ok if ME2 default paragon choices are fail in ME3." - that's fine because it pseudo rewards continuation players.

But per se that has nothing to do with how Paragon Sheps will respond once they realise that really the values they sort to extend and protect - the values of the Alliance - are in fact completely undermined.

Paragons have consistently performed with a equal attitude to both aliens and humans, seeking to extend humanity but not at the cost of aliens. If Cerberus is ordained by the Alliance then Alliance values are misplaced from an avergae Paragon Shep.... that's a bad day.

The game will take an exceptionally cheap turn because you can't actually reconcile paragon values at all as an Alliance Soldier with Sheps Paragon responses if Cerberus IS alliance.

If that were the case... then really there is no Paragon in Mass Effect, There is only Renegade. Unless the story is about the replacement of the seditious values within the Alliance aswell.

[Ecael]

JohnnyBeGood2 wrote...

1. Cerberus' methods cast a deep shadow over the Alliance if Cerberus is a black ops and supported extension of the Alliance.

Kasumi's loyalty mission has greybox data on something that will implicate the Alliance if the Council ever found out. Considering the distrust between humans and the rest of the Council races, it's not surprising that they'd form a group to work outside the laws to justify that lack of trust anyway.

2. stonewalled? So you are saying that their questions were stonewalled? Is that your interpreation of the event or the undeniable meaning?

They literally use the word when you talk to them.

3. "make sense" seems to mean here: "it's ok if ME1 default rene choices are fail in ME2" and "it's ok if ME2 default paragon choices are fail in ME3." - that's fine because it pseudo rewards continuation players.

But per se that has nothing to do with how Paragon Sheps will respond once they realise that really the values they sort to extend and protect - the values of the Alliance - are in fact completely undermined.

Renegades spent all of Mass Effect 1 undermining the values of the Alliance.

Paragons have consistently performed with a equal attitude to both aliens and humans, seeking to extend humanity but not at the cost of aliens. If Cerberus is ordained by the Alliance then Alliance values are misplaced from an avergae Paragon Shep.... that's a bad day.

The game will take an exceptionally cheap turn because you can't actually reconcile paragon values at all as an Alliance Soldier with Sheps Paragon responses if Cerberus IS alliance.

If that were the case... then really there is no Paragon in Mass Effect, There is only Renegade. Unless the story is about the replacement of the seditious values within the Alliance aswell.

If your Shepard is pure Paragon, then that Shepard will represent the true values of the Alliance once he or she is able to return. Everything relies on Shepard.

Modifié par Ecael, 04 juillet 2010 - 01:14 .

[JohnnyBeGood2]

Ecael wrote...

JohnnyBeGood2 wrote...
1. Cerberus' methods cast a deep shadow over the Alliance if Cerberus is a black ops and supported extension of the Alliance.

Kasumi's loyalty mission has greybox data on something that will implicate the Alliance if the Council ever found out. Considering the distrust between humans and the rest of the Council races, it's not surprising that they'd form a group to work outside the laws to justify that lack of trust anyway.

2. stonewalled? So you are saying that their questions were stonewalled? Is that your interpreation of the event or the undeniable meaning?

They literally use the word when you talk to them.

3. "make sense" seems to mean here: "it's ok if ME1 default rene choices are fail in ME2" and "it's ok if ME2 default paragon choices are fail in ME3." - that's fine because it pseudo rewards continuation players.

But per se that has nothing to do with how Paragon Sheps will respond once they realise that really the values they sort to extend and protect - the values of the Alliance - are in fact completely undermined.

Renegades spent all of Mass Effect 1 undermining the values of the Alliance.

Paragons have consistently performed with a equal attitude to both aliens and humans, seeking to extend humanity but not at the cost of aliens. If Cerberus is ordained by the Alliance then Alliance values are misplaced from an avergae Paragon Shep.... that's a bad day.

The game will take an exceptionally cheap turn because you can't actually reconcile paragon values at all as an Alliance Soldier with Sheps Paragon responses if Cerberus IS alliance.

If that were the case... then really there is no Paragon in Mass Effect, There is only Renegade. Unless the story is about the replacement of the seditious values within the Alliance aswell.

If your Shepard is pure Paragon, then that Shepard will represent the true values of the Alliance once he or she is able to return. Everything relies on Shepard.

Besides the point about stonewalling (let's leave that for now), I don't really have an issue with what you are saying.
The issue is this: If the Alliance has been dallying convertly and knowledgably, providing financial support for Cerberus (and I mean seriously provisioning, supporting Cerberus)  as their "black ops arm" then there's a fundamental difference of perspective - between me and anyone else - over the what constitutes "suitable and civil conduct" on the part of humans within the galactic civilisation.

I'm not talking forbidden AI research here (Which was influenced by indoctrination from Sovereign aka - Revelations novel). I'm talking Pragia (Teltin Facility) and Aite (Overlord). Your position is that the Alliance covertly condones that action. (similar to Bush condoning waterboarding).

You are stepping into a moral quagmire that would never give rise to the kind of Paragon activities that a Paragon Shep would have at his disposal in the way BW has written the character.

You are suggesting a rather large leap of associative reality that - kind of - just doesnt exist. If BW asserts that Cerberus is apart of the Alliance, I am saying they are asserting a form of storytelling that belies a connection to reality. They haven't previously shown such conspicuous vagrancy to story before and I hope they don't start.

I am saying that to take the story in that direction is to really bely their reputation (as realists and psychologists) and to cheapen their brand as effective story tellers.

Again, the story is cheapened by going in that direction. It really is like ending off by saying: "and then he woke up and it was all a dream"... it is such a low form of the craft.

Modifié par JohnnyBeGood2, 04 juillet 2010 - 03:31 .