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[Ecael]

JohnnyBeGood2 wrote...

Besides the stonewalling one, I'm not really having issue with what you are saying. The issue is that if the Alliance has been dallying convertly and with knowledge, and financial support for Cerberus etc. I'm talking - provisioning, supporting, which I assume is meant by "black ops arm" of Alliance then there's a fundamental differential line drawn in the sand about what constitutes "suitable and civil conduct" on the part of humans within the galactic civilisation.

I'm not talking forbidden AI research here (Which was influenced by indoctrination from Sovereign aka - Revelations novel). I'm talking Pragia (Teltin Facility) and Aite (Overlord).

They're not entirely part of the Alliance, but went rogue in order to free themselves from the red tape brought on by Council. Before Shepard joined the Spectres, the Council races had their own ways of circumventing their own red tape:

• Asari - Justicars, cities in the Terminus Systems (like Illium)
• Turians - The shady Volus as a client race, themselves a military-based race with several Spectres (and we all know what happened with just one of them...)
• Salarian - Salarian STG, cities like Noveria (run by Anoleis and guarded by Turians)

Humans weren't supposed to get a Councilor, much less a Spectre, that quickly. They also didn't want to end up treated as second-class citizens like the jellyfish Hanar or the moles Volus, thus the need for secretive organizations.

Your position is that the Alliance covertly condones that action. (similar to Bush condoning waterboarding). You are just kind of stepping into a moral quagmire that would never give rise to the kind of Paragon activities that a Paragon Shep would even consider if that's the place from where he comes.

You are kind of suggesting a rather large leap of associative reality that - kind of - just doesnt exist. If BW asserts that Cerberus is apart of the Alliance, I am saying they are asserting a form of storytelling that belies a connection to reality that their storytelling (up to this point) has been great at conveying.

The Alliance can't keep track of what's going on in an entire galaxy (countries on Earth can't even keep track of what's going on within their own borders!).

• In Mass Effect 1, you raided Cerberus bases in the Voyager cluster, which is the same place where Cerberus built the Normandy SR-2 (and likely the same cluster where Lazarus Station is located)
• Kahoku told you that they were experimenting on some kind of super-soldier, which suggests a soldier with forced cybernetic augmentations. Which human soldier do you know of that has successfully integrated cybernetic Cerberus augmentations, preferably ones that can be upgraded throughout the game?
• A Sole Survivor Shepard was the product (or even the fittest survivor) of a Cerberus experiment on Akuze. What exactly did Cerberus stand to gain from wiping out fifty Alliance marines with Thresher Maws when even the krogan on Tuchanka are impressed when someone kills a single one?
• When Kahoku dies, the Alliance announces that he died of natural causes.
• When Shepard dies, the Alliance automatically declares him/her dead. Cerberus goes looking for Shepard's body instead.
• Jacob Taylor joins Cerberus immediately after working for the Alliance, despite the fact that people say that they are enemies.

You can question my view of reality within a sci-fi video game all you want, but unless you can come up with some other reasonable way Shepard will be able to return to the Alliance in Mass Effect 3 after working with Cerberus, then there is no other logical conclusion.

Modifié par Ecael, 04 juillet 2010 - 01:58 .

[Costin_Razvan]

We are talking about whether Cerberus is Alliance? Would you be happy as a Paragon if you found out that the Alliance had actually adopted Cerberus' methods?

Cos that's whatsa goin on here.

My characters ARE Paragons. I do not care what others would make of it when the game considers them as such, I also consider myself a Paragon then a Renegade if you want to make that way, but before I go into more detail about this let me say a few things:



Yes. I would be happy if Cerberus was part of the Alliance rather then a split one, Because if they aren't then the Alliance has another Black Ops group, and we already know what the Alliance ordered Cerberus to do before Cerberus ( theoretically ) split from them.



Let me list some things: Singapore space station has an accident, element zero provokes cancer to many people but also creates children with biotic potential.



Another incident like that some years later.



Akuze. Assuming that Cerberus even did it, People just ASSUME they lured the tresher maws there but that's based on what Toombs say, and I am sorry but a tortured person isn't someone a good source of info.



The Teltin facility was started AND closed before Cerberus split from the Alliance. ( Jack must be at least 20 and she did mention escaping as a little girl )



The AI on Sidon was engineered by the Alliance, there is nothing to even link Cerberus to that.



Welcome to reality. A reality where your much precious alliance, so called morally right isn't as morally right as you might think and no this isn't megaming to know all this. You do find it out in the game from various characters/quests. The information regarding Sidon is not known in the games.....but I refuse to believe a top commando as Shepard would not know about it.



TIM, for all his so called evil thinking, does have a moral code. He was unwilling to allow those scientists to continue what they were doing to Jack. He was unwilling to do what Archer did to David.



He is willing to take advantage of the morally wrong works of others and use them to his advantage, but that does not make him immoral. For what purpose he will use that information will determine that.



On to my last point: I said earlier in my post that a Paragon, or at least my Paragon Shepard believes such. My view is that a Paragon is about helping others, doing whatever it takes to save lives no matter the moral cost and no saving lives and keeping yourself on the road of morally right is not mutual exclusive. Take for example Legion's mission. Whatever you might decide on the matter, brainwashing those geth is NOT the morally right decision and yet is is the Paragon one.



My Paragon Shepard respects TIM immensely for what he did. While others stood there scratching their balls and not giving a **** about the hundreds of thousands of colonists, he did something.



If Cerberus is part of the Alliance then perhaps I can excuse the Alliance for not doing something directly, as they might ( as TIM suggests) be unable to, not that I will start looking at the Alliance in a better manner.



If Cerberus is not part of the Alliance, then they have no bloody excuse for allowing it to happen and for a "terrorist group" to save those people.

[Fizzeler]

Think of this why would Anderson (former Alliance commander) openly help you knowing that you work for Cerberus



Ecael has some good points as well

[Ecael]

Fizzeler wrote...

Think of this why would Anderson (former Alliance commander) openly help you knowing that you work for Cerberus

Ecael has some good points as well

Not to mention the Alliance Fifth Fleet hates the Normandy SR-1 for draining so much money in the first place (with Admiral Anderson was at the helm of it)... imagine how they'd react if they knew the Alliance helped build one twice its size.

[Ecael]

For even more speculation...



When Gibbed made his save editor for Mass Effect 2, he had trouble figuring out the plot flags for the UNC: Cerberus and UNC: Hades' Dogs quests, either because they were scrambled/encrypted or located in a different area of the save file.

Why would BioWare go through all the trouble of hiding those two plot flags in the first game when there's hardly any mention of it in the second?

[JohnnyBeGood2]

Ecael wrote...
You can question my view of reality within a sci-fi video game all you want, but unless you can come up with some other reasonable way Shepard will be able to return to the Alliance in Mass Effect 3 after working with Cerberus, then there is no other logical conclusion.

1. I think that Shepard will have sufficient obvious evidence to outline what his role was in the destruction of the Collector Base. Further, he'll be able to rely upon recorded details of his initial death to create at least a credible account of his actions. With that he places hiimself in the: "well, he hasn't caused harm" category.
2. Upon verification and corroboration the Alliance can over the course of ME3 at least reasonably establish that the "Saviour of the Citadel" has done "no real damage" that would obviously endanger his reputation as a upstanding soldier who has restrained himself from acting against the Alliance and the Council races.
3. That was never the hard part - he can prove neutrality and maintain his reputation. The hard part is proving he is "beyond any suspicion". But to be honest - that's largely a creative tension (creatove license) that will drive ME3 -> Shepard will be proving and reproving himself to more than just the Alliance.
4. Even if he doesn't "rejoin" the Alliance, there is enough evidence to show he "should be allowed to pursue the Reaper issue". Again the creative part of the story comes in how much "latitude" he can muster with the various galactic factions to hit the Reapers when they come.
5. He will probably have the backing of some factions within the Alliance, but likely not all... but that's how it works.

That Cerberus was "right about the Collectors" is not a fault of judgement by Shepard and the evidence about his findings and actions will be viewed as positive character evidence for him, even enhancing his reputation as a person who not only has superior judgement but who can earn superior results. (the issue with Cerberus has always been, not that they can't see what to do, but that they always screw it up and hurt people - and that's the difference between Shep and TIM, between a good soldier and narcisstic terrorist xenophobe)

The evidence all bodes well for Shep if he seeks a concession from either the Council or the Alliance, even if they stonewall him.. he has the evidence, and that's what counts.

Modifié par JohnnyBeGood2, 04 juillet 2010 - 03:55 .

[Ecael]

[quote]JohnnyBeGood2 wrote...

[quote]Ecael wrote...
You can question my view of reality within a sci-fi video game all you want, but unless you can come up with some other reasonable way Shepard will be able to return to the Alliance in Mass Effect 3 after working with Cerberus, then there is no other logical conclusion.[/quote]
1. I think that Shepard will have sufficient obvious evidence to outline what his role was in the destruction of the Collector Base. Further, he'll be able to rely upon recorded details of his initial death to create at least a credible account of his actions. With that he places hiimself in the: "well, he hasn't caused harm" category.
2. Upon verification and corroboration the Alliance can over the course of ME3 at least reasonably establish that the "Saviour of the Citadel" has done "no real damage" that would obviously endanger his reputation as a upstanding soldier who has restrained himself from acting against the Alliance and the Council races.
3. That was never the hard part - he can prove neutrality and maintain his reputation. The hard part is proving he is "beyond any suspicion". But to be honest - that's largely a creative tension (creatove license) that will drive ME3 -> Shepard will be proving and reproving himself to more than just the Alliance.[/quote]
That sounds like a fairly boring beginning for Mass Effect 3...

Besides, what are the odds that the Turian Councilor won't just accuse Shepard of committing genocide again when they hear that the Collectors were once Protheans?

[quote]4. Even if he doesn't "rejoin" the Alliance, there is enough evidence to show he "should be allowed to pursue the Reaper issue". Again the creative part of the story comes in how much "latitude" he can muster with the various galactic factions to hit the Reapers when they come.[/quote]
Except Shepard would have much more clout if he or she were recruiting in the name of the Council Spectres.
5. He will probably have the backing of some factions within the Alliance, but likely not all... but that's how it works.[/quote]
What other factions of the Alliance has Shepard run into in the first two games other than the recently-split Cerberus?

Modifié par Ecael, 04 juillet 2010 - 03:58 .

[homestyle]

1 reason why Cerberus cannot be part of Alliance.



Throughout the game, I get the feeling that other species think that Cerberus is really part of Alliance. I can't quote a part because this is littered throughout the codex and through conversations. If you've played the game, you would probably agree with me on this point.



Moreover, Cerberus is seen as evil by human Alliance. If the humans think Cerberus is evil, just imagine what non-humans think.



So if this ever came out that Cerberus is part of Alliance, the humans would be destroyed politically and be disbarred from the Alliance. This would be the end of the human species. Period.

[Ecael]

homestyle wrote...

1 reason why Cerberus cannot be part of Alliance.

Throughout the game, I get the feeling that other species think that Cerberus is really part of Alliance. I can't quote a part because this is littered throughout the codex and through conversations. If you've played the game, you would probably agree with me on this point.

Moreover, Cerberus is seen as evil by human Alliance. If the humans think Cerberus is evil, just imagine what non-humans think.

So if this ever came out that Cerberus is part of Alliance, the humans would be destroyed politically and be disbarred from the Alliance. This would be the end of the human species. Period.

Except for the fact that the humans as a whole saved the Council and earned a seat about a thousand years before they were supposed to earn one.

That's similar to saying that Saren going rogue should have destroyed the turians politically.

[Prince of Kemet]

Never-Red wrote...

Its definitely a possibility. It reminds of (forgot the name of the organization) in deepspace nine there's a section of starfleet that carry out all the 'bad/unsavory/illegal' things and starfleet claims they are a renegade operation but yet they do nothing about it, and when the section does something that is beneficial to starfleet (even if horrible or illegal) starfleet just looks the other way.

So Cerberus kind of reminds me of that, and it is quite a possibility they are still part of the Alliance. Good Thread.

You are referring to "Section 31."

Section 31
Another example of DS9’s darker nature is the introduction of Section 31, a secret organization dedicated to preserving the Federation way of life at any cost. This shadow group, introduced in "Inquisition", justifies its unlawful, unilateral tactics by claiming that it is essential to the continued existence of the Federation. Section 31 features prominently in several episodes of the Dominion War arc.

I agree with you completely Cerberus is the Section 31 of the Systems Alliance.

If people simply pay attention, T.I.M. basically tells Shepherd this. He says something to the effect that "We are one in the same." Just as the SpecTRes do the councils dirty work, the STG does the Solarians dirty work and the Asari have their commando group. Cerberus does the same for the Alliance. We have no idea what kind of dirt that the Asari Commandos and the STG have done OR are doing. Who knows what the hell the Turians have hidden away. Let us not forget the genophage. If the Alliance didn't have Cerberus, humanity would be at a SEVERE disadvantage. The council is just pissed off because that can't control Cerberus like they control the STG or the Asari Commandos. Don't forget the Solarian League of One. It is my belief that the Solarians sacrificed the League as a way of submitting to the Asari and Turians so that they could gain council admission. To be blunt, Cerberus is ABSOLUTELY neccessary. 

Modifié par Prince of Kemet, 04 juillet 2010 - 04:35 .

[JohnnyBeGood2]

[quote]Ecael wrote...

[quote]JohnnyBeGood2 wrote...
3. That was never the hard part - he can prove neutrality and maintain his reputation. The hard part is proving he is "beyond any suspicion". But to be honest - that's largely a creative tension (creative license) that will drive ME3 -> Shepard will be proving and reproving himself to more than just the Alliance.[/quote]
That sounds like a fairly boring beginning for Mass Effect 3...[/quote]

I wouldn't have said he was going to literally fly around saying: "Look, hey believe me, the Reapers are coming." (though I wonder how he can't do that to make the stor happen.. but idk) It's more the case of: "****e, are these idiots going to get their **** together and get into this fight or what?" ... developing the whole: "do we have the numbers for this anyway... and what happens if people don't show?" etc etc. Dramatic tension and overtone.

[quote]Ecael wrote...
Except Shepard would have much more clout if he or she were recruiting in the name of the Council Spectres.
[/quote]
Well you did say "make up with the Alliance" not "make up with the Council". I dare say that making up with the Council will be easier because it is only "Alliance lead" ( or not depending on your playthough ), so it doesn't share the peculiarities of the human (Alliance / Cerberus) consideration. And if you did save the Council - (Paragon choice) in ME1 and you have some short order evidence about the outcome of your actions with Cerberus... the Council is within both it's power and will to rescind your ME2 probation to the Terminus and give you reign again.. that's not a stretch.

Indeed, it's possible to have a Council endorsed Shepard Spectre who is marginally disliked by the Alliance... nice twist to be honest... it is afterall not just about humanity but about galactic civ. Which again, is exactly what a Paragon shep would do.

[quote]JohnnyBeGood2 wrote...
5. He will probably have the backing of some factions within the Alliance, but likely not all... but that's how it works.[/quote]
[quote]Ecael wrote...
What other factions of the Alliance has Shepard run into in the first two games other than the recently-split Cerberus?[/quote]
[/quote]
I would probably say Anderson vs Udina is a somewhat significant factional separation

Modifié par JohnnyBeGood2, 04 juillet 2010 - 04:20 .

[JohnnyBeGood2]

Prince of Kemet wrote...

Never-Red wrote...
Its definitely a possibility. It reminds of (forgot the name of the organization) in deepspace nine there's a section of starfleet that carry out all the 'bad/unsavory/illegal' things and starfleet claims they are a renegade operation but yet they do nothing about it, and when the section does something that is beneficial to starfleet (even if horrible or illegal) starfleet just looks the other way.
So Cerberus kind of reminds me of that, and it is quite a possibility they are still part of the Alliance. Good Thread.

You are referring to "Section 31."
Section 31
Another example of DS9’s darker nature is the introduction of Section 31, a secret organization dedicated to preserving the Federation way of life at any cost. This shadow group, introduced in "Inquisition", justifies its unlawful, unilateral tactics by claiming that it is essential to the continued existence of the Federation. Section 31 features prominently in several episodes of the Dominion War arc.

I admit.. way too many Star Trek associations on these boards here today... I am grateful ME =/= Star Trek... I always found their storytelling a bit weak.

[JohnnyBeGood2]

Shandepared wrote...

JohnnyBeGood2 wrote...
I really hope Cerberus is not Alliance... the amount of legitimacy that would give some people on the forums who always stand up for TIM would be the death of me.

True, I'm getting giddy just thinking about how much I'd gloat.

Yes, 100% correct Shand... hello haha

[homestyle]

Ecael wrote...

homestyle wrote...

1 reason why Cerberus cannot be part of Alliance.

Throughout the game, I get the feeling that other species think that Cerberus is really part of Alliance. I can't quote a part because this is littered throughout the codex and through conversations. If you've played the game, you would probably agree with me on this point.

Moreover, Cerberus is seen as evil by human Alliance. If the humans think Cerberus is evil, just imagine what non-humans think.

So if this ever came out that Cerberus is part of Alliance, the humans would be destroyed politically and be disbarred from the Alliance. This would be the end of the human species. Period.

Except for the fact that the humans as a whole saved the Council and earned a seat about a thousand years before they were supposed to earn one.

Which is even more reason why Cerberus cannot be tied to the Alliance. Imagine the political ramifications if found out that the Alliance is part of Cerberus.

Humans kicked out of council.

Humans kicked out of alliance.

Haters of Cerberus AND haters of humans come after humans.

A smart Alliance leader would destroy and scatter Cerberus and kill off all proof of ties between Cerberus and Alliance.

Ecael wrote...
That's similar to saying that Saren going rogue should have destroyed the turians politically.

No because Saren wasn't supported by the turians. But if it came out that all turians wanted Saren to act that way, then things would be different

Likewise, the Alliance doesn't support Cerberus. But if it came out that the Alliance does support Cerberus, then that is the end of humans.

Turians earned their way into the council. They have the respect of the Alliance species. We are newcomers and have even more haters.

Modifié par homestyle, 04 juillet 2010 - 04:40 .

[homestyle]

Bottom line is this:

Any political leader would know the consequences if found out that Cerberus was supported by the Alliance. The consequences are outcast from the council and outcast from the Alliance.

Therefore, for this to make sense in real life, Cerberus cannot be part of the Alliance.

Modifié par homestyle, 04 juillet 2010 - 04:43 .

[Ecael]

homestyle wrote...

Which is even more reason why Cerberus cannot be tied to the Alliance. Imagine the political ramifications if found out that the Alliance is part of Cerberus.

Humans kicked out of council.

Humans kicked out of alliance.

Haters of Cerberus AND haters of humans come after humans.

A smart Alliance leader would destroy and scatter Cerberus and kill off all proof of ties between Cerberus and Alliance.

First of all, the Council has no idea what Cerberus does, or if it will even affect their representative races in the slightest. The majority of the experiments were performed on other humans. Otherwise, they would have killed or arrested Shepard the moment he or she landed at the Citadel with the Normandy SR-2.

Second of all, the Alliance represents humanity, so kicking all the humans out of it would be like kicking all the asari out of the Justicars.

A smart leader knows how to make the best of the resources given to them for the sake of their followers while making sure everyone is satisfied or kept ignorant about the things that will dissatisfy them (but help them in the long run).

Modifié par Ecael, 04 juillet 2010 - 04:44 .

[archurban]

wow, you guys just made story up? look, Cerberus is not a part of Alliance. it is totally independent. plus, Alliance hate it.Cerberus is more dangerous than ever in terms of pursuing for pro humanity? all sound is bull**** to me. don't trust it, don't follow. you will be a part of worst experiment victim just like Overlord. just read original book or comic books.

[Ecael]

archurban wrote...

wow, you guys just made story up? look, Cerberus is not a part of Alliance. it is totally independent. plus, Alliance hate it.Cerberus is more dangerous than ever in terms of pursuing for pro humanity? all sound is bull**** to me. don't trust it, don't follow. you will be a part of worst experiment victim just like Overlord. just read original book or comic books.

Or you could just play both games and see that the Alliance covers for Cerberus a lot more than they should, and works with Cerberus more often than they should.

Jacob's loyalty mission has Alliance and Cerberus working together to treat the victims. Alliance and Cerberus science teams worked on finding the Derelict Reaper. A lot of Cerberus members are ex-Alliance as well.

[homestyle]

Ecael wrote...

archurban wrote...

wow, you guys just made story up? look, Cerberus is not a part of Alliance. it is totally independent. plus, Alliance hate it.Cerberus is more dangerous than ever in terms of pursuing for pro humanity? all sound is bull**** to me. don't trust it, don't follow. you will be a part of worst experiment victim just like Overlord. just read original book or comic books.

Or you could just play both games and see that the Alliance covers for Cerberus a lot more than they should, and works with Cerberus more often than they should.

Jacob's loyalty mission has Alliance and Cerberus working together to treat the victims. Alliance and Cerberus science teams worked on finding the Derelict Reaper. A lot of Cerberus members are ex-Alliance as well.

lol.

Did we really land on the moon?

Seriously though, Cerberus are a pro-human group of humans. Alliance are humans. It would make sense that ex alliance members are cerberus. When Cerberus wants to help humans in a peaceful non-fanatical way it would make sense for cerberus' goal to align with alliance like shown in the Jacob side story.

[Ecael]

homestyle wrote...

Ecael wrote...

archurban wrote...

wow, you guys just made story up? look, Cerberus is not a part of Alliance. it is totally independent. plus, Alliance hate it.Cerberus is more dangerous than ever in terms of pursuing for pro humanity? all sound is bull**** to me. don't trust it, don't follow. you will be a part of worst experiment victim just like Overlord. just read original book or comic books.

Or you could just play both games and see that the Alliance covers for Cerberus a lot more than they should, and works with Cerberus more often than they should.

Jacob's loyalty mission has Alliance and Cerberus working together to treat the victims. Alliance and Cerberus science teams worked on finding the Derelict Reaper. A lot of Cerberus members are ex-Alliance as well.

lol.

Did we really land on the moon?

Seriously though, Cerberus are a pro-human group of humans. Alliance are humans. It would make sense that ex alliance members are cerberus. When Cerberus wants to help humans in a peaceful non-fanatical way it would make sense for cerberus' goal to align with alliance like shown in the Jacob side story.

Yet you just said that Alliance hates Cerberus (or Cerberus hates Alliance, with the whole killing Alliance Admirals thing). It would then make more sense if Cerberus members consisted of human civilians and colonists not related to the Alliance.

[homestyle]

everyone hates cerberus. alliance hates cerberus. cerberus does not hate alliance. cerberus hates the way alliance does not seem to be pro-human.

alliance members that hate the political bull or that start thinking the way of cerberus move over to cerberus.

Modifié par homestyle, 04 juillet 2010 - 05:59 .

[Bomb In My Pants]

Okay, Cerberus has to be part of the Alliance in some way, shape, or form because, as explaned in the book Revelation, they have EDI. The only AI research was conducted at the Sidon research facility-which was vaporized. All this happened just before Saren attacked the Citadel, and I doubt that Cerberus could have developed an AI from scratch in just 3, or 4 years.

[Prince of Kemet]

What pisses me off is how the Alliance basically discredited everything Shepherd said after he died. To me that is cowardly, disloyal and unforgiveable. After EVERYTHING that Shepherd did for humanity, for the council that pull that crap? My Shepherd doesn't trust Cerberus but, he knows that he needs their money and resources. As far as the Alliance is concerned, I am COMPLETELY done with them. All Shepherd needs to go at it alone is money and resources.

Modifié par Prince of Kemet, 04 juillet 2010 - 06:39 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Prince of Kemet: You make a valid point.



I very much doubt the Alliance/Council would ever welcome you back openly and allow you use their resources and money to deal with the reapers. They will likely send their fleets support Shepard once he has solid proof, but they won't help Shepard anything more then that.



Regardless of whatever motives Shepard has, or doesn't have, the Alliance/Council cannot and will not allow someone who worked/is working for a terrorist group to return into their fold. It is simply because of the bad public image they would receive for doing so. Every Councilor would be basically committing political suicide if they did that.