798 réponses à ce sujet

[ADLegend21]

Zulu_DFA wrote...


But, even if the aliens know, but pretend they don't know, and maybe we know, that they know, but pretend not to know, and we in our turn pretend too that we don't know that they know... and everybody knows everything but pretends nobody knows nothing, it doesn't make Cerberus going actually rogue (as opposed to "everybody pretends Cerberus went rogue") any more sensible. Because it does not provide a remotely satisfactory answer as to WHY and WHEN Cerberus went rogue.

wow I'm surprised you haven't slapped that plothole picture on that, unless they're waiting for Mass effect 3 to put the finishing touches on the Cerberus story line.

[Zulu_DFA]

ADLegend21 wrote...
Yous till haven't answered why the Alliance would...

Son.
If you want your questions answered personally, create a thread of your own for each of them. I'll be happy to go there and post a link to this and similar threads (like this one, for instance), that are filled with answers to your questions, including the very OPs of said threads.

ADLegend21 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...
But, even if the aliens know, but pretend they don't know, and maybe we know, that they know, but pretend not to know, and we in our turn pretend too that we don't know that they know... and everybody knows everything but pretends nobody knows nothing, it doesn't make Cerberus going actually rogue (as opposed to "everybody pretends Cerberus went rogue") any more sensible. Because it does not provide a remotely satisfactory answer as to WHY and WHEN Cerberus went rogue.

wow I'm surprised you haven't slapped that plothole picture on that, unless they're waiting for Mass effect 3 to put the finishing touches on the Cerberus story line.

That's the plan. If they don't explain something in ME3, I'll be gladly slapping the "plothole" pic all over the trilogy, including some big stuff needing expalnation from ME1. Until then, the pic goes only to the ME2's cool crap like the crew abduction, boobs in space, talimance and Warden "The Morons Contest Runner-Up" Kuril.

But this "Cerberus story line" doesn't even need further explanation. The proof is so ample, you guys just refuse to see it.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 10 juillet 2010 - 03:57 .

[ADLegend21]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

ADLegend21 wrote...
Yous till haven't answered why the Alliance would...

Son.
If you want your questions answered personally, create a thread of your own for each of them. I'll be happy to go there and post a link to this and similar threads (like this one, for instance), that are filled with answers to your questions, including the very OPs of said threads.

ADLegend21 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...
But, even if the aliens know, but pretend they don't know, and maybe we know, that they know, but pretend not to know, and we in our turn pretend too that we don't know that they know... and everybody knows everything but pretends nobody knows nothing, it doesn't make Cerberus going actually rogue (as opposed to "everybody pretends Cerberus went rogue") any more sensible. Because it does not provide a remotely satisfactory answer as to WHY and WHEN Cerberus went rogue.

wow I'm surprised you haven't slapped that plothole picture on that, unless they're waiting for Mass effect 3 to put the finishing touches on the Cerberus story line.

That's the plan. If they don't explain something in ME3, I'll be gladly slapping the "plothole" pic all over the trilogy, including some big stuff needing expalnation from ME1. Until then, the pic goes only to the ME2's cool crap like the crew abduction, boobs in space, talimance and Warden "The Morons Contest Runner-Up" Kuril.

But this "Cerberus story line" doesn't even need further explanation. The proof is so ample, you guys just refuse to see it.

you mean the proof that an AI AND Top ranking officer explained that Cerberus is it's own seperate organization wth it's own funding, agents and projects, seperate from the alliance? no I saw that after the suicide mission. Blew my mind.

[MTN Dew Fanatic]

ADLegend21 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

ADLegend21 wrote...
Yous till haven't answered why the Alliance would...

Son.
If you want your questions answered personally, create a thread of your own for each of them. I'll be happy to go there and post a link to this and similar threads (like this one, for instance), that are filled with answers to your questions, including the very OPs of said threads.

ADLegend21 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...
But, even if the aliens know, but pretend they don't know, and maybe we know, that they know, but pretend not to know, and we in our turn pretend too that we don't know that they know... and everybody knows everything but pretends nobody knows nothing, it doesn't make Cerberus going actually rogue (as opposed to "everybody pretends Cerberus went rogue") any more sensible. Because it does not provide a remotely satisfactory answer as to WHY and WHEN Cerberus went rogue.

wow I'm surprised you haven't slapped that plothole picture on that, unless they're waiting for Mass effect 3 to put the finishing touches on the Cerberus story line.

That's the plan. If they don't explain something in ME3, I'll be gladly slapping the "plothole" pic all over the trilogy, including some big stuff needing expalnation from ME1. Until then, the pic goes only to the ME2's cool crap like the crew abduction, boobs in space, talimance and Warden "The Morons Contest Runner-Up" Kuril.

But this "Cerberus story line" doesn't even need further explanation. The proof is so ample, you guys just refuse to see it.

you mean the proof that an AI AND Top ranking officer explained that Cerberus is it's own seperate organization wth it's own funding, agents and projects, seperate from the alliance? no I saw that after the suicide mission. Blew my mind.

It's all a conspiracy.

[Mikazukinoyaiba2]

I always suspected the Cerberus was actually supported by at least some top officials in the Alliance and the "gone rogue" story was made as a way to create an organization that will promote humanity's (Alliance) interests illegally and providing "plausible deniability".



Our own history would tell you that is what many intelligence agencies do. Also Edi's story about the origins of the Normandy SR-2 (Cerberus was behind the building of the first one) along with how Subject Zero's project was piggybacked onto the Alliance's program shows people in charge at the Alliance are supporting Cerberus.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Hey, anything to make Cerberus look good, I guess. 

Whatever.

[KingDan97]

Pointless necropost is pointless

[Killjoy Cutter]

KingDan97 wrote...

Pointless necropost is pointless

If the OP doesn't want more responses, he'll stop linking it in his posts.

[Zulu_DFA]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

KingDan97 wrote...

Pointless necropost is pointless

If the OP doesn't want more responses, he'll stop linking it in his posts.

I don't care for more responses. I don't even care if it's locked. I link it up, because I don't want to copypaste it every time. And, pointless post about pointless necropost's pointlessness is pointless.

[Zulu_DFA]

You wanted proof? There it is.



- one of the great

[Therion942]

I actually much prefer the vision of where the Alliance protects corpo and Cerberus actually cares about the little guy.

Still not gonna stop me from having me a gunbattle with TIM, but I like that vision.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

That is an interesting theory.. But why would Anderson attack Cerberus facilities then (After Grayson gave them to Kahlee Sanders)?

[Zulu_DFA]

Anderson had felt disgruntled about the Alliance, ever since they relieved him of the 1st Normandy's command. It became ever more evident in his dossier at the Shadow Broker's. On the other hand, he was always... very fond of Kahlee.

He betrayed the Alliance for love.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 14 octobre 2010 - 06:10 .

[Fixers0]

No offense here, but i think you got it all wrong, well i do admit that conspiracy and secret organisations is very popular today's science fictions games and movies.

First of all isn't any hard proof to support your claim,Bioware either did't care about or did't want to make a scrict political structure in mass effect because that would''t fit with the free universe of mass effect.

You also seem interpreted the things that Bioware's did't explicitly explainded in the game gives you the room to come up with the craziest theory, you may do so, but you don't got any proof for you theory's.

[GuardianAngel470]

Madecologist wrote...

I heard this before. It is not far fetched. The rogue status is more like what you tell morally concious person X when he finds out about it. There is a term for it in the alphabet soup, it is plausible deniability. Possiblely some people that know the truth do not like it but well, it is not like they can do anything about it. Except to smear its name. There might be rivalry, Anderson having Kai or Ash investigate Horizan was honest, and certainly there is a small internal power conflict where some people are trying to expel them.

As for TIM and Cerberus' view on their "rogue" status, they probably like it too. It gives them a little more freedom to do what they want since they don't have to worry about 'bad press' towards the System Alliance in general.

But it leaves a few questions, Anderson is obviously opposed. But what about Udina? To the council he does oppose Cerberus, but privately and secretly I wonder what Udina's take would be.

"The Council and the Alliance don't want to admit the threat is real." 

Quote from the opening dialog with TIM. Also, EDI tells you in no uncertain terms that Cerberus was able to build the Normandy SR-2 because the operatives and sympathizers in the Alliance convinced the Alliance to co-develop the original Normandy with the Turians in order to study turian ship building techniques. This pretty much destroys your only item of proof if EDI is to be believed, which there is no real reason she can't be.

[Zulu_DFA]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Madecologist wrote...

I heard this before. It is not far fetched. The rogue status is more like what you tell morally concious person X when he finds out about it. There is a term for it in the alphabet soup, it is plausible deniability. Possiblely some people that know the truth do not like it but well, it is not like they can do anything about it. Except to smear its name. There might be rivalry, Anderson having Kai or Ash investigate Horizan was honest, and certainly there is a small internal power conflict where some people are trying to expel them.

As for TIM and Cerberus' view on their "rogue" status, they probably like it too. It gives them a little more freedom to do what they want since they don't have to worry about 'bad press' towards the System Alliance in general.

But it leaves a few questions, Anderson is obviously opposed. But what about Udina? To the council he does oppose Cerberus, but privately and secretly I wonder what Udina's take would be.

"The Council and the Alliance don't want to admit the threat is real." 

It's strongly suggested throughout the game that they know about it. Why the denial? To the old Council (if it's still around) you're untrustworthy. To the Alliance - read the OP. And TIM is manipulative SOB.

GuardianAngel470 wrote...
Also, EDI tells you in no uncertain terms that Cerberus was able to build the Normandy SR-2 because the operatives and sympathizers in the Alliance convinced the Alliance to co-develop the original Normandy with the Turians in order to study turian ship building techniques. This pretty much destroys your only item of proof if EDI is to be believed, which there is no real reason she can't be.

Can't see how. First, EDI says herself, even after unshackling, that she doesn't have full files on Cerberus. Why would she? She can be captured and interrogated, just like Shepard, or any other agent. Secondly, AFAIK  the exact wording was "Cerberus encouraged the Alliance". Like, you know, "CIA encouraged the US government".

The trick is, you, as Shepard, are not supposed to know the truth and have solid proof of it. Because the day Admiral Hackett tells you "TIM's my old pal", you'll be trasfered to an HQ position and can forget about shooting things. Maybe ME3 will start with such a twist and be a strategy game?

Of course, there could be some incriminating evidence at the Shadow Broker's, but this is one of the most guarded Alliance secrets, so here you are again, only with titbits. The titbit about Hackett was quite telling in its laconic essense.

Maybe that was exactly what Rear Admiral Kahoku got too: "Request denied. Hackett."

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 14 octobre 2010 - 12:21 .

[Zulu_DFA]

What does this word "ROGUE" even mean???

This is a quote from a CNN article about US soldiers smoking dope and shooting the Afghanis for fun:

"And the headlines around the world about the rogue unit have created a backlash in a part of the world where the Army desperately hopes to win over hearts and minds."

(http://us.cnn.com/20...tion/index.html)

That's great, the entire unit (the platoon, the company, the batallion or the whole brigade?) is now "rogue" because some of its members have done something criminal. OK, let's leave it like that, but then it'll just mean that "the unit" is "bad", not that it somehow became an enemy of the United States.

With that in mind we can now understand the meaning of Kahoku's line "they are completely rogue". It means "they are completely bad". This is big news, Kahoku, thank you! Sure we must now go kill them all. Just like the US Army should disband and imprison the entire "unit", I suppose. Only don't forget, that the US Army will have to form another "unit" in its place, with the same structure and task. And give them weapons, and send to Afghanistan.


AND, to proceed to an example of carefree usage of the word "rogue" in the Mass Effect Codex itself, click here.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 25 janvier 2011 - 03:51 .

[Arijharn]

You do realise that Cerberus encouraging the Alliance to develop the Normandy doesn't mean that they're two separate identities anyway; look at real world ship and fighter aircraft designs, they're on the drawing board for years (maybe even decades) before they get built. If I remember correctly, the A4 Skyhawk (http://en.wikipedia....wiki/A4_Skyhawk) was a prime example of a visionary design (for the time) that smashed the US Navy's expectations, but it was still on paper for a long time beforehand.

[Estelindis]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

PROOF:

You keep using that word.  I do not think it means what you think it means.

(Evidence which may be interpreted to support your hypothesis?  Yes.  Proof?  Not so much.)

[Zulu_DFA]

Evidence is evindence. Like a DNA test results.



Proof is proof. Like a proof of a theorem.

[Schneidend]

Evidence and proof are not the same thing. You have a lot of evidence that I agree with, but you don't have empirical proof what you're saying is true. Only Bioware devs could talk with absolute authority about Cerberus' status.



That said, I think this is a really good theory. All the ducks appear to be in a row, as it were. Like some others, though, I kind of doubt this will come to pass in the canon. It's a little too grey area, even for Mass Effect. Obviously, they've given we discerning fans clues that the Alliance are not squeaky clean Space Paladins, but I doubt Bioware will ever come out and say that the Alliance is involved in Cerberus' dealings directly.

[anmiro]

Your proof is full of 'seems' and 'maybes'. I'm not saying it isn't possible, but all the so called proof you have provided is circumstantial. A better title for this thread would have been:

Cerberus IS part of the Alliance. It never went "rogue".[WHY I THINK SO]

I have my own theory which is that the Illusive Man had dealings with the Collectors in the past. It makes perfect sense. A mysterious alien race is trading never before seen advanced alien technology in exchange for a few test subjects. TIM had Cerberus, an organization more than capable of acquiring whatever test subjects were needed and enough connections in the corporate world to mass produce said technology and make billions. I believe TIM would have viewed it as irresponsible of Cerberus to allow advanced alien technology to fall into the hands of any other race. 

Peoples response to my theory is always the same, TIM would't sacrifice human lives, to which I say, he does it all the time and the requested test subjects have not always been human.

The real point I'm trying to make here is that my theory, while possible, stems from my dislike and mistrust of the Illusive Man. Why do you think your so willing to believe your theory?

Modifié par anmiro, 15 octobre 2010 - 01:22 .

[anmiro]

Terraneaux wrote...

I don't think that Cerberus is still part of the Alliance, as that would have come up over the course of ME2. They may still have traitorous Alliance officials on their payroll, but I don't think they're still officially on the books.

A much simpler explanation for everything previously mentioned.

[Zulu_DFA]

anmiro wrote...

Your proof is full of 'seems' and 'maybes'. I'm not saying it isn't possible, but all the so called proof you have provided is circumstantial. A better title for this thread would have been:

Cerberus IS part of the Alliance. It never went "rogue".[WHY I THINK SO]

I think so, because there is the proof. And there are only two "maybes" there, and they by no means invalidate its value as a proof.

anmiro wrote...
I have my own theory which is that the Illusive Man had dealings with the Collectors in the past. It makes perfect sense. A mysterious alien race is trading never before seen advanced alien technology in exchange for a few test subjects. TIM had Cerberus, an organization more than capable of acquiring whatever test subjects were needed and enough connections in the corporate world to mass produce said technology and make billions. I believe TIM would have viewed it as irresponsible of Cerberus to allow advanced alien technology to fall into the hands of any other race.

People response to my theory is always the same, TIM would't sacrifice human lives, to which I say, he does it all the time and the requested test subjects have not always been human.

That's an outstanding theory, which I have no problems with. Do you have any proof?

I have: TIM sold out half of the Horizon colonists to the Collectors, just to take a shot at the Collector cruiser. He admitted as much himself.

So what?

The real point I'm trying to make here is that my theory, while possible, stems from my dislike and mistrust of the Illusive Man. Why do you think your so willing to believe your theory?

And my theory does not stem from my admiration of TIM's magnificent manipulative SOB-ery. Because I would admire it regardless of Cerberus' affiliation with the Alliance.

And I think you've just said it yourself. You are unwilling to believe my theory, because you dislike TIM, and no amount of proof or evidence or both will ever make you believe it, until BioWare say it themselves (which I doubt they will).

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 15 octobre 2010 - 01:43 .

[mosor]

I think there is plenty of evidence to conclude that Cerberus is still part of the alliance....unless bioware writers did a re-imaging for ME2 and developed the Cerberus story as if they were never an alliance black ops project to begin with and always terrorists or a secret cabal.

Modifié par mosor, 15 octobre 2010 - 03:06 .